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Unread postPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 6:28 pm
  

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OLD ONE

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Comment: PROUDLY Not a member of the "Cabal of 24"
So I asked Greg if it would be possible to perhaps run some demo's of his upcoming book for Heroes Unlimited: Hardware Unlimited! HU: HU ????

Greg got Kevin Siembieda's permission to share a portion of the book with me. What parts did I get?
The Power Categories listed below [minus the Mad Scientist]
New skills [only noticed these in the Power Category write-ups, but awesome nonetheless!]
A catalog of low & hi tech toys!
Base Creation rules [from the Rifter 37 article]
Vehicle Creation rules [expanded]

I will be running demo's at this years Gen Con in Indianapolis. Woot!

Greg Diaczyk wrote:
Hardware Unlimited™
A sourcebook for Heroes Unlimited™

The much anticipated accessories book for any crime fighter, vigilante and super hero. A comprehensive catalogue of the standard fair of super hero gear from grappling hooks, super sleuthing gear, to body armor, weapons and accessories only a super hero would need. Not to be outdone by the gear they produce the heroes behind their concepts rise to feature their talents to the super hero community, battling with their evil competitor Fabricator Inc. by outfitting heroes with the latest gear, accessories, costumes and hero paraphernalia.

• New Hardware Power Categories: Hacker, Driver, Mad Scientist, Chemical Genius, Robotics Genius and Robotic Swarm Master.
• An as un yet named Hardware Organization that builds custom costumes, gear, technologically gear that upgrades super powers, vehicles and Hero Headquarters (a good guy version of Fabricator Inc.)
• A huge catalogue of useful low tech and high tech gear for every type of super hero, from the normal human vigilante to the power packed mutant. All accessories to be “timeline appropriate” and easily adjusted whether you want to run a game in 1980 or 2080.
• New Bionics and Robotic Systems
• Custom Vehicle Creation Rules for Land, Sea and Air Vehicles.
• Advice on how to run equipment based games and hero dependency on gadgets (instead of powers)
• Expanded Mega-Heroes (An updated version of my Rifter # 37 article)
• Secret Base Creation Rules (An updated version of my Rifter #37 article)
• New Skill programs to reflect "non-Hardware" characters trying to be Hardware Characters such as a Mutant with Telemechanics or Mechano-Link.

Can't wait to see/read this!

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 7:46 pm
  

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Hero

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Sounds super-cool. Can't wait to see this one come out! :)

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 7:52 pm
  

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Hero

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Do we have any idea when this will be ready for editing?

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 8:19 pm
  

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OLD ONE

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Slight001 wrote:
Do we have any idea when this will be ready for editing?
Not a clue, though I know Kevin is anxious for something for HU.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 8:24 pm
  

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Hero

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NMI wrote:
Slight001 wrote:
Do we have any idea when this will be ready for editing?
Not a clue, though I know Kevin is anxious for something for HU.

That's good to know.

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 10:37 pm
  

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Rifter® Contributer

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Awesome!

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Unread postPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 10:47 pm
  

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Adventurer

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More machines for the pile? Allowing joy burst for twenty seconds.


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Unread postPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 10:57 pm
  

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Priest

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Really hope to get paws on this soon. Sounds ubertechnerdacious!

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-------------
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Than the Sage among his Books,
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Unread postPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 12:14 am
  

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Palladium Books® Freelance Writer

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Comment: The greatest part of the writer's time is spent in reading, in order to write: a man will turn over half a library to make one book. - Samuel Johnson, 1775
Now I'm jealous. Greg wrote Hardware Unlimited :-o I'll take a pass on seeing anything I've done in exchange for that book.


Last edited by Reagren Wright on Mon May 19, 2014 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 7:49 am
  

Knight

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Excellent!


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 9:44 am
  

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Prince of Powers

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a good guy version of Fabricators? Excellent. Finally a reason so many heroes are wearing Flexi-steel.

Batts

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 10:11 am
  

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Hero

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This is awesome indeed........

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 2:53 pm
  

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Champion

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 5:57 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
*Hopes for some basic things like, tool kits, or rough time scales on how long various projects take*

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 20, 2014 4:07 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

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Sounds like a perfect combination with a supplement on using law, international relations and markets in your adventures...
http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=142544


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Unread postPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 12:19 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:50 pm
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NMI wrote:
So I asked Greg if it would be possible to perhaps run some demo's of his upcoming book for Heroes Unlimited: Hardware Unlimited! HU: HU ????

Greg got Kevin Siembieda's permission to share a portion of the book with me. What parts did I get?
The Power Categories listed below [minus the Mad Scientist]
New skills [only noticed these in the Power Category write-ups, but awesome nonetheless!]
A catalog of low & hi tech toys!
Base Creation rules [from the Rifter 37 article]
Vehicle Creation rules [expanded]

I will be running demo's at this years Gen Con in Indianapolis. Woot!

Greg Diaczyk wrote:
Hardware Unlimited™
A sourcebook for Heroes Unlimited™

The much anticipated accessories book for any crime fighter, vigilante and super hero. A comprehensive catalogue of the standard fair of super hero gear from grappling hooks, super sleuthing gear, to body armor, weapons and accessories only a super hero would need. Not to be outdone by the gear they produce the heroes behind their concepts rise to feature their talents to the super hero community, battling with their evil competitor Fabricator Inc. by outfitting heroes with the latest gear, accessories, costumes and hero paraphernalia.

• New Hardware Power Categories: Hacker, Driver, Mad Scientist, Chemical Genius, Robotics Genius and Robotic Swarm Master.
• An as un yet named Hardware Organization that builds custom costumes, gear, technologically gear that upgrades super powers, vehicles and Hero Headquarters (a good guy version of Fabricator Inc.)
• A huge catalogue of useful low tech and high tech gear for every type of super hero, from the normal human vigilante to the power packed mutant. All accessories to be “timeline appropriate” and easily adjusted whether you want to run a game in 1980 or 2080.
• New Bionics and Robotic Systems
• Custom Vehicle Creation Rules for Land, Sea and Air Vehicles.
• Advice on how to run equipment based games and hero dependency on gadgets (instead of powers)
• Expanded Mega-Heroes (An updated version of my Rifter # 37 article)
• Secret Base Creation Rules (An updated version of my Rifter #37 article)
• New Skill programs to reflect "non-Hardware" characters trying to be Hardware Characters such as a Mutant with Telemechanics or Mechano-Link.

Can't wait to see/read this!


All of this looks awesome. Those Rifter articles are ones I use in my games so I'm hope to see more of the same quality from this writer.

I may have cried tears of joy when I saw 'Robot Genius'.

There always seemed to be a need for a good guy version of Fabricators Inc in Heroes Unlimited. I wrote a Rifter Article based on that material that got published in #65 (ICS).

Yeah, I'm very excited about the content. Hopefully it gets fast tracked to publication. Of course I've been wishing for this particular title since the name was first mentioned.

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Unread postPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 12:34 pm
  

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Awesome. Hopefully it will be out within the next couple years.

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Unread postPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 2:02 pm
  

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OLD ONE

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I have been giving Greg some decent feedback on the portions of the manuscript he has shared with me. I think you peeps will like the book once it comes out.

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 11:56 am
  

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D-Bee

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I got a chance to flip thru Greg's manuscript, and spoke to him about it at some length. I also got to play in his preview game at the Open House. I didn't get any portion of the book to take with me and read closer, but from everything I saw and heard during the weekend, this book NEEDS to come out soon! I hope Kevin can and does push this one through soon!

-A

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 2:44 pm
  

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Virtuoso of Variants

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Comment: "Your inferiority complex might be justified."
Jeremy_Black wrote:
I got a chance to flip thru Greg's manuscript, and spoke to him about it at some length. I also got to play in his preview game at the Open House. I didn't get any portion of the book to take with me and read closer, but from everything I saw and heard during the weekend, this book NEEDS to come out soon! I hope Kevin can and does push this one through soon!

-A
That would definitely be awesome.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 4:30 am
  

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Knight

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Comment: Time Magazine's person of the year, 2006.
Eh. We don't really need new OCCs, we need more options for existing OCCs. The Electrical Genius is the hacker class. The Analytical Genius is a chemical genius. Both of them already have those statements in their write ups. When/if they have to cut stuff, cut them. Also, why do we need something different from Fab inc for the good guys? Them supplying everyone has kind of been delicious in that the PCs are helping and making things worse at the same time. :D

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 12:58 pm
  

Knight

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Not bad.


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 6:53 pm
  

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OLD ONE

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The Artist Formerly wrote:
Eh. We don't really need new OCCs, we need more options for existing OCCs. The Electrical Genius is the hacker class. The Analytical Genius is a chemical genius. Both of them already have those statements in their write ups. When/if they have to cut stuff, cut them. Also, why do we need something different from Fab inc for the good guys? Them supplying everyone has kind of been delicious in that the PCs are helping and making things worse at the same time. :D



You will be happy that you are not getting any new O.C.C.'s. Instead, you are getting new Power Categories! Sorry, had to do it.

As for Fabricators and the "other" organization, although Fab's does supply the occasional "hero or vigilante", it primarily serves villains, rogue nations and terrorist organizations. The new organization is for the good guys.

Ultimately, you use what you want to use as a GM. I'd wait til it sees print and you see it in a store, or some gives a more in depth review before deep-sixing this one.

_________________
"Freedom is the recognition that no single person, no single authority or government has a monopoly on the truth, but that every individual life is infinitely precious, that every one of us put on this world has been put there for a reason and has something to offer."
Megaversal Ambassador Coordinator
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Unread postPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 7:59 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
The Artist Formerly wrote:
Eh. We don't really need new OCCs, we need more options for existing OCCs. The Electrical Genius is the hacker class. The Analytical Genius is a chemical genius. Both of them already have those statements in their write ups. When/if they have to cut stuff, cut them. Also, why do we need something different from Fab inc for the good guys? Them supplying everyone has kind of been delicious in that the PCs are helping and making things worse at the same time. :D

The 'new occs' would be just that....more options for the Hardware Power Category. Like a hacker who specializes in hacking instead of being a master of all things electronic.
As for Fabricators.....technically they only supply the bad guys. There is no canon provision for them to sell to the heroes. Sure many GMs do that....but that houserule is no reason to not plug a gap in the official game. Especially if people don't want to run games set in 'moral greyscale' (or say.....want to strictly follow the alignment system) not to mention the idea that one group would manage to have a monopoly on high tech supplies is just silly. (this is why they have things like Triton Industries, and Cyberworks and.....)

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 8:34 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: Time Magazine's person of the year, 2006.
NMI wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:
Eh. We don't really need new OCCs, we need more options for existing OCCs. The Electrical Genius is the hacker class. The Analytical Genius is a chemical genius. Both of them already have those statements in their write ups. When/if they have to cut stuff, cut them. Also, why do we need something different from Fab inc for the good guys? Them supplying everyone has kind of been delicious in that the PCs are helping and making things worse at the same time. :D



You will be happy that you are not getting any new O.C.C.'s. Instead, you are getting new Power Categories! Sorry, had to do it.

As for Fabricators and the "other" organization, although Fab's does supply the occasional "hero or vigilante", it primarily serves villains, rogue nations and terrorist organizations. The new organization is for the good guys.

Ultimately, you use what you want to use as a GM. I'd wait til it sees print and you see it in a store, or some gives a more in depth review before deep-sixing this one.


Same thing. And considering how few pages Heroes gets compared to Rifts, cutting the power categories as you say, is a good give for more playability. In PU2 we got the Empowered and the Symbiotic classes to do stuff we already had. They didn't add to game play, they just gave us different ways to get to where we already are. OCC of choice+ disability rules for empowered and instilled abilities with a different flavor text for the back ground (Outside power, be they gods, aliens, dragons or slimy crab creature bonded to character's chest) grants character agency. Had Carmen saved those pages for more stuff like expanding Imbued as a element of street drugs (old school Flash had some kind of speed drug and Marvel currently uses Mutant growth hormone) and more stuff for the super invention, more options for super soldiers, maybe some new Hand to Hand Combat tables, a complete rewrite for Natural Combat abilities... that would have been awesome.

As for the good guy group of Fabricator, why? First, Fab inc would likely hunt them down and kill them all. And take their stuff. Second, this role is ideal for player characters to fill in the small setting, and an NPC like Mr. Fixit or the group Workshop if no player fills that role well. Third, more then a few heroes have Fab Inc Tech in their arsenals, which adds to the prestige and mystery of the group. Fourth, and this is my key point, it adds playability to the game and connects to previous books, increasing sales for HU (which everyone can agree is needed), and forces players to deal with the devil to save the world. Better character development.

_________________
When I look in the dictionary and see the word Cool...I see Taffy's picture...-Shady Slug
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. -Abraham Lincoln
Don't blame me, I voted for Sanders.


Last edited by The Artist Formerly on Mon May 25, 2015 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 9:01 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: Time Magazine's person of the year, 2006.
eliakon wrote:
The 'new occs' would be just that....more options for the Hardware Power Category. Like a hacker who specializes in hacking instead of being a master of all things electronic.


Without a book to look at, unless we have something truly special, I don't see how. Heroes Unlimited's greatest hacker is Mother Board, and she's an electrical genius. I don't need another way to do something I already can do, I need ways to do new things.

Quote:
As for Fabricators.....technically they only supply the bad guys. There is no canon provision for them to sell to the heroes. Sure many GMs do that....but that houserule is no reason to not plug a gap in the official game. Especially if people don't want to run games set in 'moral greyscale' (or say.....want to strictly follow the alignment system) not to mention the idea that one group would manage to have a monopoly on high tech supplies is just silly. (this is why they have things like Triton Industries, and Cyberworks and.....)


Off the top of my head, Elite and Spartacus from Century station both have Fab Inc hardware. Hell Spartacus is likely a walking advertisement for Fab Inc, even if no one knows it. The Workshop was providing tech to anyone who can pay, and are now likely building for the US government in exchange for reductions in jail time.

Gee... I wonder how all of their normal protocols failed and they got clipped by some noob selling them out. Say, isn't Orion Robotics big in Century Station?

More to the point a hero group has to play by the rules, which means all of those neat gadgets they might be building for good and honest people have to have licenses serial numbers, must meet EPA guidelines, must observe ammo limits, rate of fire limits, barrel length limits, the people you're selling them to must meet background check requirements, and say, where is this factory? Because the EPA and OSHA will both have to sign off on this, that'll need an inspection. Does any of this stuff fly? FAA will have to get involved in this too. Will any of this stuff be going to 'Heroes' in other nations? That's the state department. Depending on what we're talking about, most of it can't go to hostile nations at all, very, very limited stuff can go to rouge states, 'allied' note the quotes, like China, probably can't have anything without specific state department notes or treaties, allies with internal troubles have to be watched don't want a fast and the furious-Mexico kind of deal happening with super-tech, and anything going to real allied states like England or Canada, still has to meet State guide lines and match both US and Canadian (for example) health and safety regulations. Provided sanctions and vicious senators on the sub-commitees who feel like they didn't get enough money for their reelection campaign don't tank the whole thing just because.

That's why.

Trition, Orion, Cyber-works and KLS all work for the US military industrial complex. They all meet their requirements and they are all ripped off by Fab Inc. Well, except for Orion, but that one's obvious.

_________________
When I look in the dictionary and see the word Cool...I see Taffy's picture...-Shady Slug
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. -Abraham Lincoln
Don't blame me, I voted for Sanders.


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 9:13 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: Time Magazine's person of the year, 2006.
All of that said, Greg, if you're reading this, don't get me wrong, I'm hungry for more tech options, HU feels very 1985 for most of it's gadgets. I love more stuff. More options, I just want things that add to play directly rather then having to shoe horn in new stuff around existing game. OCCs or power cats, whatever, should be the first to go when they need to make room for art or other stuff.

_________________
When I look in the dictionary and see the word Cool...I see Taffy's picture...-Shady Slug
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. -Abraham Lincoln
Don't blame me, I voted for Sanders.


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 9:59 pm
  

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Hero

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Sorry Artist... I have to disagree with your assessment of Fabricators Inc.

First, Fabricators tries to keep a very low profile. They do this by keeping out of the limelight as much as possible. The tech the develop and sell is virtually untraceable and that is the way they want it. While there may be rumors of Fabricators Inc. making their rounds through the criminal underworld, very few people actually know anything about it and those that do keep it a secret (and virtually none know anyone else that uses this company).

Heroes and Vigilantes that occasionally get their equipment from Fabricators Inc. have usually done so through their more legitimate holdings and not through a Fabricator's Liaison Officer. Same for the few Law Enforcement agencies that have similar tech. Virtually none realize that they are dealing with a criminal organization. While it is possible that the FBI or even the CIA and similar organizations have heard the rumors of Fabricators Inc. it is unlikely they have any hard evidence that the organization is anything other than an urban legend. Yes, a number of criminals have some untraceable tech that seems similar to that possessed by other criminals, but since most of these criminals have little in common otherwise, no one has managed to connect the dots yet.

As for eliminating the "competition"... well that is bad for two reasons.

1) it brings a lot of attention to the activities of Fabricators Inc. When a business is attacked, most people look to see which competitor benefits the most from such an action... something that could expose Fabricators Inc. as more than just a urban legend.

2) Competition breeds innovation... with someone providing tech to heroes, there will be an increasing need with villains for newer and better tech; something Fabricators will sell to those villains, which prompts the Hero version to develop better tech and so on. Additionally, it gives Fabricators Inc. a prime target for industrial espionage (but not outright sabotage). It is even possible that this new organization is almost as secretive as Fabricators Inc. which means it will more likely target heroes with these advanced toys than the organization itself. I see their relationship as one more likely fought in the shadows between their respective "champions" than one fought by their own agents in more overt methods.

Yes, it was an area where a lot of Players could have tried to fill, but to be honest... running such a business isn't as much fun as it is using such tech to trounce bad guys. I've had a few players try to track down where a lot of the villains they faced got their remarkable tech... and some have managed to cause Fabricators Inc. a slight inconvenience when such tech was traced to one of their more legitimate operations, but even then it didn't do much damage to either Fabricators Inc. or the company it was traced to (usually such items were part of a "stolen" shipment or a scapegoat was set up to take the fall for the items being sold to criminals. Regardless, none of my players have ever been able to prove "in game" that Fabricators Inc. is anything more than rumor... let a lone a criminal organization.

As for licensing and serial numbers for hero equipment... I don't recall any of Batman's equipment... or anything used by the Justice League actually being traceable back to Wayne Tech or any of the other companies that supplies materials to them. Sure, there was that one incident in The Dark Knight movie where a Wayne tech employee recognized the Batmobile as an experimental vehicle the company once worked on that was never produced... but that is closest anyone has come to tracing any hero tech. The Penguin once traced various tech to the mechanic that worked on the Batmobile in the animated series... but not to Wayne Tech or came close to identifying who Batman is. Add to this is the fact that many heroes are technically operating outside of the Law (vigilantism is a crime in most places), so it is unlikely that they will want tech that can be traced back to the organization providing it. Is this illegal... yes, but often seen as a necessary evil in the fight against crime. Just because one is fighting crime doesn't mean one is working within the law.

Now if a company is publicly associated with a group of heroes... like Stark Industries with the Avengers... and more recently with Wayne Industries with their Batmen project (not up to date with how that has been going), then yes, they have to play more within the rules. Even so, a lot of the tech used is of such cutting edge design that it may not actually be currently regulated under most laws.

In the end, having a Heroic version of Fabricators Inc. is something that has been a long time coming. To be honest, I would have thought this would have been presented much sooner... even before Fabricators Inc.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 11:58 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: Time Magazine's person of the year, 2006.
Razorwing wrote:
Sorry Artist... I have to disagree with your assessment of Fabricators Inc.

First, Fabricators tries to keep a very low profile. They do this by keeping out of the limelight as much as possible. The tech the develop and sell is virtually untraceable and that is the way they want it. While there may be rumors of Fabricators Inc. making their rounds through the criminal underworld, very few people actually know anything about it and those that do keep it a secret (and virtually none know anyone else that uses this company).

Heroes and Vigilantes that occasionally get their equipment from Fabricators Inc. have usually done so through their more legitimate holdings and not through a Fabricator's Liaison Officer. Same for the few Law Enforcement agencies that have similar tech. Virtually none realize that they are dealing with a criminal organization. While it is possible that the FBI or even the CIA and similar organizations have heard the rumors of Fabricators Inc. it is unlikely they have any hard evidence that the organization is anything other than an urban legend. Yes, a number of criminals have some untraceable tech that seems similar to that possessed by other criminals, but since most of these criminals have little in common otherwise, no one has managed to connect the dots yet.

As for eliminating the "competition"... well that is bad for two reasons.

1) it brings a lot of attention to the activities of Fabricators Inc. When a business is attacked, most people look to see which competitor benefits the most from such an action... something that could expose Fabricators Inc. as more than just a urban legend.

2) Competition breeds innovation... with someone providing tech to heroes, there will be an increasing need with villains for newer and better tech; something Fabricators will sell to those villains, which prompts the Hero version to develop better tech and so on. Additionally, it gives Fabricators Inc. a prime target for industrial espionage (but not outright sabotage). It is even possible that this new organization is almost as secretive as Fabricators Inc. which means it will more likely target heroes with these advanced toys than the organization itself. I see their relationship as one more likely fought in the shadows between their respective "champions" than one fought by their own agents in more overt methods.

Yes, it was an area where a lot of Players could have tried to fill, but to be honest... running such a business isn't as much fun as it is using such tech to trounce bad guys. I've had a few players try to track down where a lot of the villains they faced got their remarkable tech... and some have managed to cause Fabricators Inc. a slight inconvenience when such tech was traced to one of their more legitimate operations, but even then it didn't do much damage to either Fabricators Inc. or the company it was traced to (usually such items were part of a "stolen" shipment or a scapegoat was set up to take the fall for the items being sold to criminals. Regardless, none of my players have ever been able to prove "in game" that Fabricators Inc. is anything more than rumor... let a lone a criminal organization.

As for licensing and serial numbers for hero equipment... I don't recall any of Batman's equipment... or anything used by the Justice League actually being traceable back to Wayne Tech or any of the other companies that supplies materials to them. Sure, there was that one incident in The Dark Knight movie where a Wayne tech employee recognized the Batmobile as an experimental vehicle the company once worked on that was never produced... but that is closest anyone has come to tracing any hero tech. The Penguin once traced various tech to the mechanic that worked on the Batmobile in the animated series... but not to Wayne Tech or came close to identifying who Batman is. Add to this is the fact that many heroes are technically operating outside of the Law (vigilantism is a crime in most places), so it is unlikely that they will want tech that can be traced back to the organization providing it. Is this illegal... yes, but often seen as a necessary evil in the fight against crime. Just because one is fighting crime doesn't mean one is working within the law.

Now if a company is publicly associated with a group of heroes... like Stark Industries with the Avengers... and more recently with Wayne Industries with their Batmen project (not up to date with how that has been going), then yes, they have to play more within the rules. Even so, a lot of the tech used is of such cutting edge design that it may not actually be currently regulated under most laws.

In the end, having a Heroic version of Fabricators Inc. is something that has been a long time coming. To be honest, I would have thought this would have been presented much sooner... even before Fabricators Inc.


Call me Taf or Taffy, saves typing. :) And you don't have to say you're sorry for having a different opinion.

Too low a profile and they can't gain clients. Go through VU, tons of guys in there have Fab Inc gear (hehe, we should just call it fabulous gear). VU hints that some of the Alphabet agencies know something, just not what, exactly, and if Elite knows Fab Inc, then it's a safe bet that SECTOR does too. Also makes me wonder if that's the source of Heartbreaker's swing line gear. That someone is out there isn't important, not knowing where is. And as Fab inc has teleporters and cell system for information control and for recruitment/assignment of operatives. They have contingency plans for what if someone get's captured and a pay system to keep people loyal. That's functional.

There is no branding on Fabulous gear, so a hero group's contact might be the inventor, just helping out, so long as the PCs can front him the cash to afford such things. They don't know one way or the other. From the client's perspective (for the most part, there are some rather odd exceptions of the rule) there is no multi-national mega-corp of evil out there, just this one guy they know, who knows another guy who can get this stuff for enough bottle caps.

Fab Inc doesn't send Voltaic or Bellicose out to smash up the competition, they send known super villain(s) who wants something, like the Masters of Speed, to smash up the competition. And the Masters of Speed are smashing and stealing stuff all the time. It's what they do, they are villains after all.

Competition in such a small market place is very bad. The innovation that fab inc needs is found in the military/industrial complex. At the end of Batman begins, Jim Gordon laments "We start carrying semi automatics, they buy automatics, we start wearing Kevlar, they buy armor piercing rounds..." speaking about an arms race between the cops and the crooks. But that's not the case. Bad guys carry better guns to deal with each other, not cops. Consider the number of characters in the VU who were stealing from other criminals. If you want a big stack of cash, you going to rob a bank with all of that money that's already had it's serial numbers recorded, and might have dye packs, instantly putting you on the FBI's radar, if not SECTOR and SCRET (or more likely, all three, they all would have a stake in such an action). ORRRR you could steal from organized crime like a drug cartel. Which has none of that.

Heh. Now we have an interesting view difference on the same point of comparison. So, if you need special clothing for your powers to work over on the Marvel side of things, you need unstable molecules. Something invented and basically put forward by a player character (Mr. Fantastic). So you have to go to the FF to get it done. And it's been stolen by AIM for sale to villains, and I think SHIELD has also appropriated the tech for their use, like it or not Dr. Richards (that was mentioned in the Heroes Reborn arc that they lifted it from him, IIRC, and he was cranky about it). Same with Stark Tech, you need his gear, you either get it from him (a player character) or you buy it stolen, and wait for him to come hunt you down (armor wars). These are what I would call small setting fixes. Parker can get Fantastic Tech because they know him. Avengers have Stark Tech because they are effectively a sub-arm of Stark Industries/Enterprises/Solutions... whatever. He usually finances them through the Maria Stark Foundation, so these items aren't be sold, they are being moved from one part of the company to another.

Going to your example of Wayne Tech, Wayne Ent put a bid for the Justice League stuff, as did Kord Enterprises, Queen Consolidated, and all that noise. I'm sure Lex Corp did too, but oddly enough didn't get the job... As for the Bat himself and his toys, or any of the variations on that idea, they build for themselves. Lucius Fox builds for the Bat. And both Stark (insert name here) and Wayne Ent are under pressure to build super tech for world governments with varying degrees of success. To recap, these genius inventors, Richards, Stark and Wayne Ent, have to build for the world governments to keep them off their backs. And none of them sell weapons. All of them have their stuff stolen by the bad guys. Who often try and kill them. About once a month or so. :)

And they are all what we'd consider player characters, think about the NPC companies that AIM chews through.

Most importantly, what we're talking about is buying super powers. That can't be just order click use to gain. The PCs need to sweat for this. And having to make deals with bad guys, that's just icing on the cake. :demon:

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 8:17 am
  

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OLD ONE

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Comment: PROUDLY Not a member of the "Cabal of 24"
The Artist Formerly wrote:
As for the good guy group of Fabricator, why? First, Fab inc would likely hunt them down and kill them all. And take their stuff. Second, this role is ideal for player characters to fill in the small setting, and an NPC like Mr. Fixit or the group Workshop if no player fills that role well. Third, more then a few heroes have Fab Inc Tech in their arsenals, which adds to the prestige and mystery of the group. Fourth, and this is my key point, it adds playability to the game and connects to previous books, increasing sales for HU (which everyone can agree is needed), and forces players to deal with the devil to save the world. Better character development.

So, we should expect to only have 1 Underground Tech company ever? This just keeps HU where it has been, stuck in the 80's.I'd rather see it expand and grow.

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 9:19 am
  

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Comment: "In Absentia Lucis, Tenebrae Vincunt"
I read several parts of the manuscript during the Open House and I played with Greg (he was the GM): "HU Hardware Unlimited preview". I can tell you this: it´s an awesome book and IMHO it is ready as it is (of course, I am no expert but it´s that good). I hope we can get it soon :)

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 3:56 pm
  

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Palladium Books® Freelance Writer

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Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Comment: The Official "Wayne Smith Clone"
So the manuscript is in, awaiting review by Kevin. I received quite a bit of good feedback on the book at the Open House and it appears most who played in my Open House game really liked the new material and enjoyed the game itself (gave a little synopsis of the book before the game).

Kevin indicated he would love to try and fast track it but Robotech® is taking up much of his time, so cross your fingers... we'll see!

As a further teaser though here is a revised synopsis for the game, some of the stuff got changed around :D enjoy!

Hardware Unlimited™
A sourcebook for Heroes Unlimited™
The much anticipated accessories book for any crime fighter, vigilante and super hero. A comprehensive catalogue of the standard fair of super hero gear from grappling hooks, super sleuthing gear, to body armor, weapons and accessories only a super hero would need. The secret hero support organization known as Unlimited provides custom equipment and super suits to their heroic clients as well as offers emergency medical response and road side assistance to its clients and their custom super vehicles.

• New Hardware Power Categories: Hacker, Driving Ace, Chemical Genius and Robotics Genius as well as some minor revisions and updates to clarify the four existing Hardware Power Categories.
• Revised and Updated Power Categories: Super Sleuth, Robot Pilot
• New Power Categories: The Mad Scientist and Techno-Illusionist (a Mega-Hero upgrade for the Stage Magician)
Unlimited , a Hardware Organization that builds custom costumes, gear, technologically gear that upgrades super powers, vehicles and Hero Headquarters (a good guy version of Fabricator Inc.)
• A huge catalogue of useful low tech and high tech gear for every type of super hero, from the normal human vigilante to the power packed mutant. All accessories to be “timeline appropriate” and easily adjusted whether you want to run a game in 1980 or 2080.
• New Robotic Systems
• Custom Vehicle Creation Rules for Land, Sea and Air Vehicles.
• Advice on how to run equipment based games and hero dependency on gadgets (instead of powers)
• Expanded Mega-Heroes (An updated version of my Rifter # 37 article)
• Secret Base Creation Rules (An updated version of my Rifter #37 article)
• New Skill programs to reflect "non-Hardware" characters trying to be Hardware Characters such as a Mutant with Telemechanics or Mechano-Link.

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"Wayne Smith Clone"
Palladium Freelance Writer and Editor

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 26, 2015 4:27 pm
  

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I suggest you reread the Contacting Fabricators Inc. section, Taf. While rumors of Fabricators Inc. is quite common in the criminal underworld, less than 15% of the people one is likely to talk to knows anything useful in actually contacting them. Those that do usually aren't willing to share their "edge". It is far more likely that many criminals just don't realize that they are dealing with Fabricators Inc. through one of their various branches and other holdings.

Less than 10% of new customers are introduced to Fabricators Inc. by someone already dealing with them. On the other hand, 30% of their new business comes from Fabricators Inc. sending out agents to make first contact with up and coming villains and criminals. 10% of customers actually sought out Fabricators Inc. by leaving messages for them in the criminal underworld... however this tends to be the hardest way to contact them as they will monitor such an individual for weeks or months before deciding whether or not to contact them.

The vast majority of their profits comes from repeat customers... such as the Masters of Speed and other criminals that make use of their products. Considering how much most of these criminals have stolen... and how much gear they have gotten (the Masters had an entire base made by Fabricators Inc.).

Remember, Fabricators Inc. tends to deal with the elite of the criminal underworld... at least directly. This would be the Super Villains and groups mentioned in the Villains Unlimited (and other) book(s). Just because a lot of the written up villains have a lot of Fabricators Inc. tech doesn't mean that everyone knows about Fabricators Inc. All it really means is that these individuals have been noticed by this company/organization and have taken advantage of the offer of new gear. In fact, I count only The master of Speed and a few others in the Villains Unlimited book as having Fabricators Inc. gear (most often armor) and only the Masters and Black Scorpion are known to deal with the company (the latter being hired by them often for special assignments). The others that have any of the company's gear may or may not have dealt directly with Fabricators Inc. but it is likely that at least a few of them merely bought the items through a front company.

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 10:15 pm
  

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Knight

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Comment: Time Magazine's person of the year, 2006.
NMI wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:
As for the good guy group of Fabricator, why? First, Fab inc would likely hunt them down and kill them all. And take their stuff. Second, this role is ideal for player characters to fill in the small setting, and an NPC like Mr. Fixit or the group Workshop if no player fills that role well. Third, more then a few heroes have Fab Inc Tech in their arsenals, which adds to the prestige and mystery of the group. Fourth, and this is my key point, it adds playability to the game and connects to previous books, increasing sales for HU (which everyone can agree is needed), and forces players to deal with the devil to save the world. Better character development.

So, we should expect to only have 1 Underground Tech company ever? This just keeps HU where it has been, stuck in the 80's.I'd rather see it expand and grow.


I hoping for continuity. It's hard to be the good guys when you're building stuff that kills people and selling it under the table to guys in masks.

_________________
When I look in the dictionary and see the word Cool...I see Taffy's picture...-Shady Slug
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. -Abraham Lincoln
Don't blame me, I voted for Sanders.


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Unread postPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 2:01 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
The Artist Formerly wrote:
NMI wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:
As for the good guy group of Fabricator, why? First, Fab inc would likely hunt them down and kill them all. And take their stuff. Second, this role is ideal for player characters to fill in the small setting, and an NPC like Mr. Fixit or the group Workshop if no player fills that role well. Third, more then a few heroes have Fab Inc Tech in their arsenals, which adds to the prestige and mystery of the group. Fourth, and this is my key point, it adds playability to the game and connects to previous books, increasing sales for HU (which everyone can agree is needed), and forces players to deal with the devil to save the world. Better character development.

So, we should expect to only have 1 Underground Tech company ever? This just keeps HU where it has been, stuck in the 80's.I'd rather see it expand and grow.


I hoping for continuity. It's hard to be the good guys when you're building stuff that kills people and selling it under the table to guys in masks.

Then don't do that...
You could sell only to known heroes
You could sell only stuff that isn't lethal (armor, super suits, power neutralizers and the like are hard to get in canon right now for instance)
You could sell it openly....

Or put another way...Yes its hard to be good gusy when your doing that stuff.....
SO DON'T DO IT!
Don't be a bad guy if your trying to be a good guy....be a good guy :bandit:

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Thu May 28, 2015 3:30 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:11 pm
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I am sure that Unlimited is just as meticulous about who they sell to as Fabricators Inc. is.

Unlike the criminals who use Fabricators Inc. though, I am sure that more heroes are willing to set up meetings with an Unlimited representative to introduce them to a company that can give them the tech they may need to make a difference. Even so, chance are that a hero in good standing with Unlimited is going to be considered a fairly good reference for a new hero being introduced to the company's products.

Also, like Fabricators Inc. I am sure that Unlimited is keeping an eye on up and coming heroes who are making a difference (and acting in a way that Unlimited finds acceptable) before making contact with said hero. It is very likely that Unlimited shies away from the more brutal and questionable heroes (the ones willing to act as judge, jury and executioner).

Even so, it is possible that even Unlimited can make a mistake and sell to a hero that was believed to be... well... heroic, only to watch as he puts the new gear he receives to uses it was never intended to be used for. There are times when even noble heroes can be pushed to commit horrendous crimes. In such cases, it is possible that Unlimited has reclamation or repo teams to recover their equipment from unworthy heroes. Still... the line between Hero and Anti-Hero is often a thin and blurry line at best.

Regardless, I will reserve judgment on this idea until I have read the section from first page to last before seeing where and if I can insert it to my games.

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 2:07 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 2:01 am
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Location: High in the Tower of Yellow, Swanky town.
Comment: Time Magazine's person of the year, 2006.
eliakon wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:
NMI wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:
As for the good guy group of Fabricator, why? First, Fab inc would likely hunt them down and kill them all. And take their stuff. Second, this role is ideal for player characters to fill in the small setting, and an NPC like Mr. Fixit or the group Workshop if no player fills that role well. Third, more then a few heroes have Fab Inc Tech in their arsenals, which adds to the prestige and mystery of the group. Fourth, and this is my key point, it adds playability to the game and connects to previous books, increasing sales for HU (which everyone can agree is needed), and forces players to deal with the devil to save the world. Better character development.

So, we should expect to only have 1 Underground Tech company ever? This just keeps HU where it has been, stuck in the 80's.I'd rather see it expand and grow.


I hoping for continuity. It's hard to be the good guys when you're building stuff that kills people and selling it under the table to guys in masks.

Then don't do that...
You could sell only to known heroes
You could sell only stuff that isn't lethal (armor, super suits, power neutralizers and the like are hard to get in canon right now for instance)
You could sell it openly....

Or put another way...Yes its hard to be good gusy when your doing that stuff.....
SO DON'T DO IT!
Don't be a bad guy if your trying to be a good guy....be a good guy :bandit:


Eh... I suppose. But it seems unlikely that will work. That is to say, not plausible. This game system depends on the concept of plausible impossible. When that breaks down, you start to notice the other problems like that the core game hasn't been updated in 20 years. And we start talking about what the guys over at Green Ronin are doing.

_________________
When I look in the dictionary and see the word Cool...I see Taffy's picture...-Shady Slug
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. -Abraham Lincoln
Don't blame me, I voted for Sanders.


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Unread postPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 2:35 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 10408
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
The Artist Formerly wrote:
eliakon wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:
NMI wrote:
The Artist Formerly wrote:
As for the good guy group of Fabricator, why? First, Fab inc would likely hunt them down and kill them all. And take their stuff. Second, this role is ideal for player characters to fill in the small setting, and an NPC like Mr. Fixit or the group Workshop if no player fills that role well. Third, more then a few heroes have Fab Inc Tech in their arsenals, which adds to the prestige and mystery of the group. Fourth, and this is my key point, it adds playability to the game and connects to previous books, increasing sales for HU (which everyone can agree is needed), and forces players to deal with the devil to save the world. Better character development.

So, we should expect to only have 1 Underground Tech company ever? This just keeps HU where it has been, stuck in the 80's.I'd rather see it expand and grow.


I hoping for continuity. It's hard to be the good guys when you're building stuff that kills people and selling it under the table to guys in masks.

Then don't do that...
You could sell only to known heroes
You could sell only stuff that isn't lethal (armor, super suits, power neutralizers and the like are hard to get in canon right now for instance)
You could sell it openly....

Or put another way...Yes its hard to be good gusy when your doing that stuff.....
SO DON'T DO IT!
Don't be a bad guy if your trying to be a good guy....be a good guy :bandit:


Eh... I suppose. But it seems unlikely that will work. That is to say, not plausible. This game system depends on the concept of plausible impossible. When that breaks down, you start to notice the other problems like that the core game hasn't been updated in 20 years. And we start talking about what the guys over at Green Ronin are doing.

I am not sure where your going with this honestly?
Your saying "its implausible because you cant be good and do X"
I say "then don't do X"
You say "but that's not plausible"

I am not sure if I can see any reason why "The Other Guys" are implausible...
So far all I have seen is that:
-You cant be good if you sell to bad guys (so don't sell to bad guys)
-That the role of being TOGs should be the PCs job (why should the PCs have global power?)
-That Fabricators will somehow maintain an exclusive monopoly on all technology in the world (even though there are already multiple other high tech firms selling advanced technological devices that Fabricators is not shutting down)
-That because one anti-hero has Fabricator gear that we should assume that all heroes devices come from them (I just don't see that)
-That ambiguous grey morality of we must support evil to do good is some how an optimal story thread (I would think that A hero game, especially one with a built in strong moral code might benefit from...clear cut morality...)
-That having a rival to a villain group harms the idea of that groups continuity (I would think that having a rival appear would make it stronger)

And honestly though I couldn't care less what the guys at Green Ronin are doing. They are not doing anything with the Palladium system or any other game engine I play and so to me they are not doing anything worth my money. This is the same reason I don't care about Hackmaster or Pathfinder or D&D....they are not a system that I or anyone here plays so all I get out of their books are some ideas that I can borrow, if I don't mind doing the work of converting entire game engines wholesale....which frankly is not worth my time unless someone has on heck of a good idea.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 3:20 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 2:01 am
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Location: High in the Tower of Yellow, Swanky town.
Comment: Time Magazine's person of the year, 2006.
eliakon wrote:
I am not sure where your going with this honestly?
Your saying "its implausible because you cant be good and do X"
I say "then don't do X"
You say "but that's not plausible"

I am not sure if I can see any reason why "The Other Guys" are implausible...
So far all I have seen is that:
-You cant be good if you sell to bad guys (so don't sell to bad guys)
-That the role of being TOGs should be the PCs job (why should the PCs have global power?)
-That Fabricators will somehow maintain an exclusive monopoly on all technology in the world (even though there are already multiple other high tech firms selling advanced technological devices that Fabricators is not shutting down)
-That because one anti-hero has Fabricator gear that we should assume that all heroes devices come from them (I just don't see that)
-That ambiguous grey morality of we must support evil to do good is some how an optimal story thread (I would think that A hero game, especially one with a built in strong moral code might benefit from...clear cut morality...)
-That having a rival to a villain group harms the idea of that groups continuity (I would think that having a rival appear would make it stronger)

And honestly though I couldn't care less what the guys at Green Ronin are doing. They are not doing anything with the Palladium system or any other game engine I play and so to me they are not doing anything worth my money. This is the same reason I don't care about Hackmaster or Pathfinder or D&D....they are not a system that I or anyone here plays so all I get out of their books are some ideas that I can borrow, if I don't mind doing the work of converting entire game engines wholesale....which frankly is not worth my time unless someone has on heck of a good idea.


Just exactly what I've said. I don't have one brick wall that stops the idea. But a lot of little bits of gravel that make me question the details, which derails immersion. Each one of those points is drag on the idea.

Selling weapons means you're choosing to build things that kill people. Maybe people who deserve it, who need to be killed, but maybe not. Bullets go where they are pointed, not where you want them to go.

In the small scale, if a super device is needed to stop Dr. Fright's plan, it should be the gear head PC who builds it. That adds agency to the players. Plus it keeps power creep down. There is a reason why we play heroes and not rifts and for a lot of people who've crossed this board, that tends to be a big one.

Fab Inc isn't shutting down KLS and the like because they are military weapons developers. They are regulated by the US government and can be controlled as such. An underground secret super tech developer, on the other hand, is a whole other thing. That's a compeditor in a very small market space. We're talking about a company that keeps murderers on staff simply because they are murderers. The only guys who tried to push into this space was the Workshop, and now they're all cooling their heels in Gramercy Island. There are what, maybe ten thousand supers or so world wide? And more villains then heroes.

Any such group operating "under ground" would, like fab inc, need extremely high margins to keep operations up. People needing stuff from Fab Inc have to drop some serious cash or trade on their special abilities to get things done. How many heroes have that kind of scratch lying around? If not that many, then what kind of super favors can be done to feed a group of good guy based arms dealers?

Moral choices are how one defines his or her character. Is dealing with Fab Inc the easy way out? How are you going to feel about it later? The thing you did (because it's always a favor for a favor kind of a deal) does it create a new villain and how much guilt does the player character have for that? This adds story, and forces players to really think about what kind of person their character is. There is a ton of role playing to be had in this decision. That's what we're doing this for, role playing.

For me, Fab Inc is one of my favorite tools. It's a go to when I need something on the fly or need to tie stuff together. I kind of like having them at the top of the food chain. I played an Fab Inc enforcer for about a year. I went from noob, to customer, to part timer, to one of the super humans who helped guide the company. So I am invested.

My group has moved to Mutants and Masterminds for our super games. I miss heroes, but new books are few and far between, and the more we play M&M, the less likely we are to go back. I intend to question and poke at the corners. Look for the strengths and the weaknesses and ask the questions. I've always like this game, but it doesn't mean I don't want it to improve. Funny thing, we brought Fab Inc over with us.

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 6:56 am
  

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Palladin

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Building and selling weapons in and of itself doesn't make one inherently a bad guy, there's nothing evil about that. Weapons are just tools, whether used for evil or good is entirely up to the user. Are the manufacturers that supply the military and police with weapons evil? Of course not, they're supplying the tools to help protect the citizens of a particular country. Now knowingly selling weapons to known bad guys which you can't plausibly claim you have no idea what use they'll put them to is going to prove morally deficient, and if the bad guys are known murderers well you definitely can't claim to be a bad guy if you sell them weapons.

By the same token purchasing from what's considered a villain organization like Fabricators Inc isn't inherently evil, particularly if you aren't even sure it IS an evil organization. Especially if it's through a front, where they have no reason to think the sale isn't legitimate. Even if they know they're buying from a manufacturer that primarily sells to criminals they still aren't going to qualify as a bad guy for doing so, they just aren't going to qualify as a moral paragon.

There should be competing organizations with Fabricators Inc as well, the market is way more than just super-villains and others should be secretly dealing with the bad guys of the world. By the same token you should see some more good-aligned groups supplying the gear needs of heroes and citizens who can afford it (after all why should only super-heroes and super-villains get those high-security buildings?).

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 9:20 am
  

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Hero

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Why would Fabricators Inc. even care if an organization like Unlimited existed?

Would it drive Fabricators Inc. out of business? Not likely. The vast majority of Fabricators Inc.'s business is dealing with criminals and super villains... individuals that Unlimited isn't going to sell or equip with their devices. In fact, it is very likely that Unlimited's existence will increase Fabricators' business. How? Well, if heroes are being equipped with new gadgets, armor and weapons that is making it easier to take down bad guys, more bad guys will be looking for a way to upgrade and level the playing field... and guess who will be there to offer them that edge... Fabricators Inc.

Additionally, while weapons (lethal and non-lethal) are likely to be a part of the equipment Unlimited offers, that doesn't make them morally grey... at least no more so than most stores that sell guns and weapons to ordinary citizens. Unlimited is more likely to be very selective on who they sell such items to. The vigilante who plays judge, jury and executioner is unlikely to be able to get said weapons through Unlimited as he is more likely to be seen as villain (and thus more likely to be on Fabricators' client list).

Beyond this, Unlimited is likely to offer a wide array of services, much like Fabricators Inc. does. You seem so focused on the "moral" implications of selling weapons that you don't seem to notice that would be merely one aspect of the business (and probably not their main focus). Equipping heroes doesn't always mean giving them weapons to fight with. It can also mean giving them armor to defend themselves (and others), miscellaneous gear for various tasks, bases of operation from which to launch a "war" on crime or a sanctuary to retreat to when the job is done. They may even help renowned heroes in a bad situation with the items they may need to restore their reputation.

If Fabricators Inc. is more than just supplying tech to criminals, then why can't Unlimited do more for heroes too?

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Unread postPosted: Sat May 30, 2015 9:59 am
  

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Hero

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As for that tech McGuffin needed to stop Dr. Fright... more often than not it will be built by the team's gear head character for the simple reason that even if Unlimited had such a device (unlikely since such a device is likely to be a one-shot item) it is unlikely that Unlimited would be able to get it to the heroes in time to stop Dr. Fright.

That said... it is far more likely that the players will be trying to stop Dr. Fright from acquiring such a McGuffin than needing one to stop him.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:34 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 2:01 am
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Location: High in the Tower of Yellow, Swanky town.
Comment: Time Magazine's person of the year, 2006.
Nightmask wrote:
Building and selling weapons in and of itself doesn't make one inherently a bad guy, there's nothing evil about that. Weapons are just tools, whether used for evil or good is entirely up to the user. Are the manufacturers that supply the military and police with weapons evil? Of course not, they're supplying the tools to help protect the citizens of a particular country. Now knowingly selling weapons to known bad guys which you can't plausibly claim you have no idea what use they'll put them to is going to prove morally deficient, and if the bad guys are known murderers well you definitely can't claim to be a bad guy if you sell them weapons.

By the same token purchasing from what's considered a villain organization like Fabricators Inc isn't inherently evil, particularly if you aren't even sure it IS an evil organization. Especially if it's through a front, where they have no reason to think the sale isn't legitimate. Even if they know they're buying from a manufacturer that primarily sells to criminals they still aren't going to qualify as a bad guy for doing so, they just aren't going to qualify as a moral paragon.

There should be competing organizations with Fabricators Inc as well, the market is way more than just super-villains and others should be secretly dealing with the bad guys of the world. By the same token you should see some more good-aligned groups supplying the gear needs of heroes and citizens who can afford it (after all why should only super-heroes and super-villains get those high-security buildings?).


If I sell guns to "Syrian Rebels" am I helping or hurting? Frank Castle and Steve Rogers are both considered heroes of sorts to different people, but I've often wondered why Cap has never hunted Castle down and tossed him into the Vault or the Raft or the big house or what have you. Not everyone who claims the status of 'hero' is worthy of the title. And without some form of government oversight, there is no recourse for those who are hurt or killed by these weapons. If this group is selling to people who don't pass a background check (because they have secret identities and 'Name' is the first place you can fail that form), then the government has a great reason to hunt them down and put them out of business. Maybe it's just my group, but we've never been the 'fortunately no one was seriously hurt'. And missed/dodged shots can indeed hit people standing around taping the fight between Duke hero guy and Dr. Fright. Or hiding on the other side of a brick wall from the fight. Or are half a mile away on a ballistic trajectory from the fight.

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Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. -Abraham Lincoln
Don't blame me, I voted for Sanders.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:43 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
The Artist Formerly wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Building and selling weapons in and of itself doesn't make one inherently a bad guy, there's nothing evil about that. Weapons are just tools, whether used for evil or good is entirely up to the user. Are the manufacturers that supply the military and police with weapons evil? Of course not, they're supplying the tools to help protect the citizens of a particular country. Now knowingly selling weapons to known bad guys which you can't plausibly claim you have no idea what use they'll put them to is going to prove morally deficient, and if the bad guys are known murderers well you definitely can't claim to be a bad guy if you sell them weapons.

By the same token purchasing from what's considered a villain organization like Fabricators Inc isn't inherently evil, particularly if you aren't even sure it IS an evil organization. Especially if it's through a front, where they have no reason to think the sale isn't legitimate. Even if they know they're buying from a manufacturer that primarily sells to criminals they still aren't going to qualify as a bad guy for doing so, they just aren't going to qualify as a moral paragon.

There should be competing organizations with Fabricators Inc as well, the market is way more than just super-villains and others should be secretly dealing with the bad guys of the world. By the same token you should see some more good-aligned groups supplying the gear needs of heroes and citizens who can afford it (after all why should only super-heroes and super-villains get those high-security buildings?).


If I sell guns to "Syrian Rebels" am I helping or hurting? Frank Castle and Steve Rogers are both considered heroes of sorts to different people, but I've often wondered why Cap has never hunted Castle down and tossed him into the Vault or the Raft or the big house or what have you. Not everyone who claims the status of 'hero' is worthy of the title. And without some form of government oversight, there is no recourse for those who are hurt or killed by these weapons.

Wait. I am confused. You are saying that a 'good group' needs oversight to be good......which is basically the point of having a group, that is in the open and sells only to identified heroes? You know.....like the hypothetical group in discussion here?
The Artist Formerly wrote:
If this group is selling to people who don't pass a background check (because they have secret identities and 'Name' is the first place you can fail that form), then the government has a great reason to hunt them down and put them out of business.

Yeah....but that's not what is being proposed is it? That is in fact circular logic (If a then b if be then c if c then a....)
The group proposed is said to only sell to heroes....claiming that it does not to back ground checks and thus is bad requires fiating in that they are doing something bad.....there is no support (so far) for the claim that they would do this.
The Artist Formerly wrote:
Maybe it's just my group, but we've never been the 'fortunately no one was seriously hurt'. And missed/dodged shots can indeed hit people standing around taping the fight between Duke hero guy and Dr. Fright. Or hiding on the other side of a brick wall from the fight. Or are half a mile away on a ballistic trajectory from the fight.

Well depending on the house rules in play sure. Of course several of those instances would require a house rule to accomplish.....which might be why other people don't have the problem. Since if I am playing the game RAW and not using your house rules then I don't have the problems that your house rules create.....

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:09 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 2:01 am
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Comment: Time Magazine's person of the year, 2006.
eliakon wrote:
Wait. I am confused. You are saying that a 'good group' needs oversight to be good......which is basically the point of having a group, that is in the open and sells only to identified heroes? You know.....like the hypothetical group in discussion here?


What defines 'identified heroes'? Dudes in masks? SECTOR? The Jury? A punch card for good deeds? If we're talking about people with secret identities, I see problems.

Quote:
Yeah....but that's not what is being proposed is it? That is in fact circular logic (If a then b if be then c if c then a....)
The group proposed is said to only sell to heroes....claiming that it does not to back ground checks and thus is bad requires fiating in that they are doing something bad.....there is no support (so far) for the claim that they would do this.


Again, what defines 'heroes'? Spider-man is a hero, but he has a terrible rep. The X-men are packed full of 'heroic' types, who every so often, switch from working for Professor X to Magneto or occasionally join Apocalypse. So they're out. Batman? Green Arrow?

Do you see what I'm getting at? Proclaiming yourself a hero doesn't make you one. And public opinion doesn't cut it either.


Quote:
Well depending on the house rules in play sure. Of course several of those instances would require a house rule to accomplish.....which might be why other people don't have the problem. Since if I am playing the game RAW and not using your house rules then I don't have the problems that your house rules create.....


So, bystanders never get hit in your games?

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Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. -Abraham Lincoln
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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:53 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
The Artist Formerly wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Wait. I am confused. You are saying that a 'good group' needs oversight to be good......which is basically the point of having a group, that is in the open and sells only to identified heroes? You know.....like the hypothetical group in discussion here?


What defines 'identified heroes'? Dudes in masks? SECTOR? The Jury? A punch card for good deeds? If we're talking about people with secret identities, I see problems.

Your presuming that there is a problem, and then using the presumed problem as proof of the problem.
We literally know nothing about how they go about vetting their clients. So any speculation about the failures of that system requires us to first make up a system....which means that as of right now any failures are not the fault of the actual provider but are inherent to the person discussing them and their view of how it might work.


The Artist Formerly wrote:
Quote:
Yeah....but that's not what is being proposed is it? That is in fact circular logic (If a then b if be then c if c then a....)
The group proposed is said to only sell to heroes....claiming that it does not to back ground checks and thus is bad requires fiating in that they are doing something bad.....there is no support (so far) for the claim that they would do this.


Again, what defines 'heroes'? Spider-man is a hero, but he has a terrible rep. The X-men are packed full of 'heroic' types, who every so often, switch from working for Professor X to Magneto or occasionally join Apocalypse. So they're out. Batman? Green Arrow?

Do you see what I'm getting at? Proclaiming yourself a hero doesn't make you one. And public opinion doesn't cut it either.

Again simply defining the situation as a problem and then saying that its a problem doesn't really do anything except prove that you can set up situations where you can make something not work.
Me, I would say "A person who follows the laws of the land" (which in HU must some how have some sort of costumed crime fighter law since you can play a good hero who has to follow the law. By definition they could not do so if their existence is inherently illegal.)
And passes some sort of (to be fully stated out) criteria (such as the one proposed in Century Station)

The Artist Formerly wrote:
Quote:
Well depending on the house rules in play sure. Of course several of those instances would require a house rule to accomplish.....which might be why other people don't have the problem. Since if I am playing the game RAW and not using your house rules then I don't have the problems that your house rules create.....


So, bystanders never get hit in your games?

That wasn't what I said.
Sure bystanders get hit in my game all the time.
But they don't get hit through brick walls or a half mile away. Why? Because RAW those things are nearly impossible to do. Guns in the Palladiumverse have terribly unrealistic ranges. I would be a horrible GM if I only let them have realistic ranges for stray rounds. Same with shooting through things.
Which is why my battles are like the Avengers Movie and not Superman. The heroes try to get civilians out of the way, and have to worry about collateral damage. But I don't just go around killing off NPCs by the boat loads either. Sure that can (and has) happened, but its not because of 'random accidents' (At least not in HU. Other game systems have different 'rules of reality' and some are not nearly as forgiving)

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Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:27 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:11 pm
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Not to put a damper on your rather "spirited" discussion, but I would like to point out that nothing in the description of Unlimited actually says they sell weapons.

It says they will provide custom costumes, gear, items that can upgrade powers, vehicles and headquarters for heroes. While it is possible that weapons could fall under the "gear" heading, it seems that unlike Fabricators Inc., Unlimited is intentionally distancing themselves from the more "questionable" merchandise like dangerous weapons.

EDIT: Comment edited to avoid potential for baiting. - NMI

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:52 am
  

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OLD ONE

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Comment: PROUDLY Not a member of the "Cabal of 24"
I am starting to see this discussion lead towards getting personal. I would prefer to not have to lock this topic.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:23 pm
  

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Demon Lord Extraordinaire

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Comment: Where's the money?
NMI wrote:
So I asked Greg if it would be possible to perhaps run some demo's of his upcoming book for Heroes Unlimited: Hardware Unlimited! HU: HU ????


How about HwU for Hardware Unlimited?

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:39 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:11 pm
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I'd like to apologize to NMI for my poor taste in puns that caused him to edit my last post in this thread... I didn't think it would trigger any kind of reaction that wasn't already started.

In truth, I just wanted to point out how foolish the rampant speculation of something that has yet to be published was. We know very little about how Unlimited will be conducting business in the setting and that speculating something we know so little about doesn't help the situation. I guess I wasn't helping much either... even though I did point out that the description of the services Unlimited provides doesn't mention the sale of actual weapons.

I will be more careful with my choice of words (and puns) in the future.

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