supernatural strength vs robotic armor rating.

[say652]

Rolls under ar half or no damage?

[Glistam]

Rolls under ar half or no damage?

A character with Supernatural Strength who rolls to strike against a target with a Natural/Robotic Armor Rating and rolls under the A.R. number on their roll to strike will do no damage unless the ability which provides the Armor Rating says otherwise - such as with certain Alter Physical Structure powers. Nothing in the definition of Armor Rating (page 66) nor in the write-up for Supernatural Strength (page 293) indicates otherwise.

To more directly answer your question, "no damage."

[say652]

thanks Glistram. appreciate the help.

[VR Dragon]

In heroes unlimited the super power of Super Natural Physical Strength is more or less armor piercing. If you read the ability of APS metal you will find that SNPS ignores AR. If the roll to hit actually strikes and is higher than AR then full damage is taken. If hit but belong AR then half damage. The only time no damage is taken is if the hit does not land on the target.

The is how SNPS works for any type of armor or anything with an AR and not just for a specific power like an alter physical structure. SNPS is powerful enough to damage invulnerability albeit only doing half damage to someone with that power so no paltry AR will stop it.

[Glistam]

If that were true then it should be listed in the Supernatural Strength power write-up, or in all listings for Armor Rating. As it stands, only a few of the A.P.S. powers note this, meaning it's only a limitation on those powers and not a general function of Supernatural Strength. The G.M.'s guide does suggest a high Penetration Value be assigned to Supernatural P.S. when using the P.V. rules from that book (7, 8 or 9 I believe) but how that interacts with A.R. is a function of the P.V. optional rules and not an inherent ability of the power itself.

[VR Dragon]

If that were true then it should be listed in the Supernatural Strength power write-up, or in all listings for Armor Rating..

Um no this is not a limitation to only a few powers. Powers are wrote up how they are wrote up. The section of the book about armor ratings is the same from PF and Other games so it was copy and pasted from a book without funny powers and so would not have how powers affect it in that section. If you read even the word natural armor rating is not listed in there or is bare a after thought note.

There is a scale of protection. Body armor, natural AR, super power granted natural body armor, and invulnerability.

So if a SNPS blow will hurt the toughest (ie invulnerability) and pound APS Metal (The hardest APS protection of which high rated robot body armor is a poor imitation of) then that is how it works across the board. Robot armor is no as tough as APS metal and if SNPS pounds that into a tin can then the robot is no better off that a super metal man. This is how it works in comic books and thus would work in HU games unless a GM wants to house rule it otherwise. SNPS is the top scale of strength so it is the strength version of diamond and cuts through/trumps many defense abilities based on armor.

The issues of PV are not apart of what the original poster asked about. Also PV is optional and not even used by the majority of players and GMs. Optional should not be used as a guide line for HU rules since it is not from the HU game originally.

[Glistam]

Yet another example of how we all play different versions of the same game.

[VR Dragon]

Yet another example of how we all play different versions of the same game.

Yes Rules as Written and other.

Here are examples from the HU 2nd Edition book on how SNPS affect something with a natural armor rating.

Quoted from APS: Stone N-AR: 16, PG 251.

"Those with Supernatural P.S. inflict full damage when their strike is 17 or higher and half damage even with attacks that fall under 17 (unless the stone being parries.)"

Quoted from APS: Metal N-AR: 17, PG 247.

"Those with Supernatural P.S. inflict full damage when their roll to strike is 18 or higher and half damage even with attacks that fall under 18 (unless the metal being parries)."

And now it is true that robot/bionic armor is rated as natural AR so normal attacks would bounce off if they roll below the AR value. But the two APS powers are even more tougher in resiliency than just a simple natural AR armor so what would be special about the material that makes up a robot armor that would make it function differently than two examples of natural armor that are its superior? Natural armor works the same as far as issues of AR and what beat its goes.

Quoted from Invulnerability on p 278.

"Supernatural punches, bites and kicks inflict half damage; extraordinary and Superhuman P.S. do no damage."

So the establish rule of effect is thus clearly laid out.

Invulnerability which beats all natural AR armor takes half damage from supernatural strength on any hits.
Natural body armor takes full damage if the AR is beat and half damage if it is not.

The only house rule I use about armor is to treat all body armors as natural ARs so avoid any confusions make armor more useful.

So that is my reasoning and case laid out. You said you don't go with this because it is not stated in the power Supernatural P.S. that it does these above listed effects in that power's description. A oversight should not be grounds for ignoring other examples.

[Glistam]

As far as I can see, these aren't examples, they are exceptions. Nowhere in those excerpts is it implied that the special rules listed in those powers are applicable for all cases of A.R. or for all interactions with Supernatural Strength. All I see is the second edition's attempt to insert additional, exploitable weaknesses in three of the most damage-resilient abilities available in the core Heroes Unlimited book. I appreciate the viewpoint and opinion presented but I do not agree with the conclusion that has been drawn drawn.

As stated by the rules outlined in the definitions for Armor Rating, Supernatural Strength is not noted in any way as a general exception to how Armor Rating works. Except for three specific powers (two, really - Invulnerability doesn't even have A.R. so it's not really relevant) where Supernatural Strength is noted to function differently versus the A.R. those powers provide. A character with Bio-Armor, or a pilot in an Exoskeleton, or a dragon... For any of those, and for any others, a character/creature/being with Supernatural Strength must roll over the A.R. number in order to inflict any damage. A roll under the A.R. does no damage. Regardless of whether it's a strike from supernatural strength, a .50 caliber bullet, a missile, a super energy blast from Super Energy Expulsion, a .22 pistol, a tank shell, or an average person's regular punch.

Natural A.R.: Some superbeings and many supernatural beings, like demons, and many creatures of magic, as well as many nonhumans possess a natural protective skin, armor or magical body armor. These living creatures have a Natural Armor Rating (A.R.). Any rolls to strike below the creature's Natural A.R. may hit and even sting (like a slap), but inflicts no damage! Bullets and explosions bounce off harmlessly, stabbing swords skitter across the armor plates, scales or skin, and so on. Only by rolling a number higher than the creature's A.R. can damage be inflicted.

For example: Attacks against a mutant with a natural A.R. of 13, means only rolls to strike of 14 or higher will penetrate his natural armor and inflicts damage! Any rolls of 13 or below, only annoy, not hurt, it. A roll of 1-4 won't even hit.

[VR Dragon]

Fine example and in your own example gives the reason for why it does hurt them. See..... a supernatural physical strength is just that..... Supernatural.... just like those demons and creatures of magic... So it is different than a laser, bullet, knife, or the like. It has in it a special trait that puts it above and outside normal man made sources of damage, it is the strength of the gods and other beings who are above and beyond the limitations of the natural armor rated world.

As my two examples (and yes they are examples no matter how much you choose to say other wise) point out to how damage types can by pass AR. See there is also another thing against which AR will not work as well, you know that explosions don't roll vs the AR right? So there is another example of an attack that gets around and ignores A.R. So while A.R. can protect against a great many things there are some things it can't stand up against.

It is silly to expect that supernatural p.s. has to be listed in every power or example or it will not work that way. But that would be a waste of time and book space for palladium. Two or three examples is more than enough to establish how it works. You shouldn't need to be beaten over the head with redundancy for it get across.

You can play how you like to play your games, but you are operating under a false assumption on parts of the rules. I pointed out the proper way of how things are meant to work to the poster and I am done with this topic. He can choose to run his game and choices as he wants.

Good luck and have fun Say652, run things as you feel

[say652]

I play robot ar as glistram suggested no damage for roles under AR. since strike bonuses apply to AR its a little more challengeing but not impossible.

[eliakon]

Fine example and in your own example gives the reason for why it does hurt them. See..... a supernatural physical strength is just that..... Supernatural.... just like those demons and creatures of magic... So it is different than a laser, bullet, knife, or the like. It has in it a special trait that puts it above and outside normal man made sources of damage, it is the strength of the gods and other beings who are above and beyond the limitations of the natural armor rated world.

As my two examples (and yes they are examples no matter how much you choose to say other wise) point out to how damage types can by pass AR. See there is also another thing against which AR will not work as well, you know that explosions don't roll vs the AR right? So there is another example of an attack that gets around and ignores A.R. So while A.R. can protect against a great many things there are some things it can't stand up against.

It is silly to expect that supernatural p.s. has to be listed in every power or example or it will not work that way. But that would be a waste of time and book space for palladium. Two or three examples is more than enough to establish how it works. You shouldn't need to be beaten over the head with redundancy for it get across.

You can play how you like to play your games, but you are operating under a false assumption on parts of the rules. I pointed out the proper way of how things are meant to work to the poster and I am done with this topic.

actually you pointed out how you choose to extrapolate two exceptions for two powers, and make them a universal rule. There is a slight difference. To wit it suggests willful duplicity, when in fact it is simply the honest opinion that some people do not feel that individual exceptions generalize into universal rules. Yes SOME damages ignore AR, that's obvious since there are specific examples. What is NOT obvious is if those specific examples are the exception or the norm.

[say652]

Both are correct. Example. Umm Redcape alien beats giant robot easylike. But a certian green radiation powered robot bangs nose to nose with him for a while. Both are examples of BOTH examples of ar. Sometimes half damage some times no damage.
I am ok with keeping it no damage for rolls inder AR.

[Tor]

In heroes unlimited the super power of Super Natural Physical Strength is more or less armor piercing.

Yes, for 2 powers

If you read the ability of APS metal you will find that SNPS ignores AR. If the roll to hit actually strikes and is higher than AR then full damage is taken. If hit but belong AR then half damage. The only time no damage is taken is if the hit does not land on the target.

That only applies to that specific AR, not all AR.

Certain kinds of natural AR are bypassable under distinct situations. There are a few Nightbane OCCs who can spend an extra melee attack to bypass the natural AR of supernatural creatures, for example. This doesn't allow them to do it for robots though.

Perhaps the reason SNPS bypasses Metal/Stone APS guys is because those forms of supernatural AR are vulnerable to SNPS.

The is how SNPS works for any type of armor or anything with an AR and not just for a specific power like an alter physical structure.

Source?

SNPS is powerful enough to damage invulnerability albeit only doing half damage to someone with that power so no paltry AR will stop it.

What makes you think Invulnerability is better than AR? They work differently. In some cases, having Hardened Skin minor can be more useful in a battle. You wanting natural AR to be inferior doesn't necessitate a rule to make it so.

Um no this is not a limitation to only a few powers.

Source?

Powers are wrote up how they are wrote up.

Yes, and note that the whole "supernatural PS bypasses this natural AR" is suspiciously absent from other APS powers.

You'll notice that with a weaker power like APS Ice, Supernatural always does full (ignores AR utterly), but with Stone/Metal, it's only full if surpassing the AR, half otherwise. Only powers like these with explicit AR-bypass vulnerabilities work this way. Others do no:
*Bio-Armor has no such descriptions of sub-AR attacks doing damage, so SNPS below Bio-Armor's AR does NOTHING
*Same goes for Force Aura
*giant shelled insects created by the Major of Control Insects+Arachnids aren't hurt by sub-NAR supernatural attacks
*nor are the pretty big robots the Hardware: Mechanicals make
*nor are the minors of Giant/Hardened Skin.
*Of notable interest is Copy Physical Structure: generally considered to be inferior to APS Stone/Metal, if you copy stone or metal using this power, its natural AR is immune to SNPS bypasses. On the down-side, the AR is lower, so it's easier to surpass.

The section of the book about armor ratings is the same from PF and Other games so it was copy and pasted from a book without funny powers and so would not have how powers affect it in that section. If you read even the word natural armor rating is not listed in there or is bare a after thought note.

Doesn't matter, if SNPS bypassed all natural AR the same way, it would've been easy to list that under the power itself.

Instead, we get footnotes about it bypassing only a limited number (three?) of powers, and those notes aren't even consistent.

There is a scale of protection. Body armor, natural AR, super power granted natural body armor, and invulnerability.

A scale you invented? Why are you ranking power-granted body armor as better than NAR?

if a SNPS blow will hurt the toughest (ie invulnerability) and pound APS Metal (The hardest APS protection of which high rated robot body armor is a poor imitation of) then that is how it works across the board.

No, it isn't, because YOU invented this ranking system and this logic, it's not based on the rules. Robot body armor does not imitate APS, for all we know robots predate that power in the world.

Robot armor is no as tough as APS metal and if SNPS pounds that into a tin can then the robot is no better off that a super metal man.

Having an inferior AR doesn't mean you're not as tough, if your AR has different properties.

If a hero had an AR of 10 and a demon had an AR of 15, would that mean that the Spook Squad guy in Nightbane MUST be able to bypass the hero's AR, because his training allows him to surpass a demon's? Of course not.

This is how it works in comic books and thus would work in HU games unless a GM wants to house rule it otherwise.

Declaring how things should work based on how you view comics IS a house-rule. The actual rules are that SNPS bypasses only NARs which say it does.

SNPS is the top scale of strength so it is the strength version of diamond and cuts through/trumps many defense abilities based on armor.

I would say 'some'. Feel free to add examples of it bypassing NAR besides ICE (full) and Metal/Stone (half) because I'm stuck on those three. I've shown more examples of NAR that make no reference to a SNPS bypass than the ones which indicate one.

Supernatural.... just like those demons and creatures of magic... So it is different than a laser, bullet, knife, or the like. It has in it a special trait that puts it above and outside normal man made sources of damage, it is the strength of the gods and other beings who are above and beyond the limitations of the natural armor rated world.

Nice flavour-text, but the only parts of the NARworld I'm seeing it as being above are Ice/Metal/Stone.

As my two examples (and yes they are examples no matter how much you choose to say other wise)

Actually, they are EXCEPTIONS to a rule (due to a unique vulnerability). Nowhere are they portrayed as examples of a universal rule.

point out to how damage types can by pass AR.

No, they point out how one damage type can bypass THAT form of AR. Different sources of ARs come with different vulnerabilities.

Spook Squad can bypass the AR of supernatural beings, and supernatural PS can bypass the AR of Ice/Metal/Stone guys. That's the story. Not some hidden rule suspiciously absent from the SNPS power itself or explanations of NAR or every other instance of NAR.

See there is also another thing against which AR will not work as well, you know that explosions don't roll vs the AR right? So there is another example of an attack that gets around and ignores A.R. So while A.R. can protect against a great many things there are some things it can't stand up against.

Good for explosions (where is that rule BTW?) but that doesn't help out SNPS.

It is silly to expect that supernatural p.s. has to be listed in every power or example or it will not work that way.

We would not expect this if a universal rule were listed under the power itself, or the explanation of NAR. Since it is absent in those critical places, we DO expect it to be listed under every NAR it byasses. That's not silly at all, since situational rules need to be explicit to situations.

But that would be a waste of time and book space for palladium. Two or three examples is more than enough to establish how it works. You shouldn't need to be beaten over the head with redundancy for it get across.

You're really missing the point here: the best place to list it would be ONCE, under either supernatural PS or NAR. It is in neither of those places. It is under particular powers.

There is also no universal rule. SNPS always does full damage to APS Ice guys. This means they don't take half if the NAR is rolled under. So why exactly would Metal/Stone represent some universal rule and Ice be the exception? Why not the other way around? Why were these chosen and Bio-Armor/Force Aura ignored? Why were Insects/Robots ignored? These were all introduced in the same main book.

You can play how you like to play your games, but you are operating under a false assumption on parts of the rules.

Dude, you're the one who's MAKING UP a rule. The context of discussion in Metal/Stone is that THESE POWERS are hurt by SNPS. Nowhere in these statements does it imply the bypass applies to NARs outside of these APS.

I pointed out the proper way of how things are meant to work to the poster

The house rule you think's proper, sure. TBH I never even noticed this but it makes the other NAR powers cooler and appealing.

[VR Dragon]

No really seeing the need or the point by point tear down of my post. You kept stuffing house rule down my metaphorical throat. If I was at any point quoting a house rule of mine I would have stated it as I did when my only mention of a house rule of mine is I treat all body armors in sdc settings as natural A.R. for simplicity sake.

The notion that something has to be printed under every power or it does not count seems odd. As for if SNPS does damage specially to certain defenses while it would useful and nice to have it done so it was not how it was written up. As with many other game systems the way attacks work on different things are often listed under those and not the attacks. Invulnerability states that SNPS does damage to it under its description and not under SNPS's entry. I have no control over book layouts so I am not sure why this is in here. Using it as some base for reasoning that because it is not listed in a portion we might like it to be then it only an exception is faulty. Psi healing is not listed under the SDC healing rules but they do apply universally because they treat all damage not just a select type or instances. As to why it was not listed under the portion of the book devoted to discussing natural armor rating? Well it may have left out to appear in its proper power catagory. This leaves the GM the option of selecting what elements he wants in his game. No need for psionics or super powers and the rules governing them if the GM doesn't want to have those in his game. But that is only a guess since I don't have telepathy to Kevin's mind.

Bringing in instances of something from an alternate setting like nightbane is not helpful for a heroes unlimited game. Different sets of rules and concepts and annoyingly palladiums rules mutate setting to setting.

Palladium and many comic books have always had a thing for super powers nearly always being better and more powerful than technology. So in a situation of which would be better a big metal man or a armored robot then the bot would be the second best. As for the different and many APSs in the book you have to look at the element they are reflecting. That topic is to varied and deep to go into here. But many of the powers that came in later books are often fan made and don't cover everything the main rule book might have for consideration.

As I said before I was posting what was in the book and what I strung together as to how NAR worked. After considering this topic and rereading the books I posted a question for official clarification by the game provider. I am big enough to admit it is I who might have had the false assumptions. I am more than glad to change my views to adapt.

I am not sure about the tone you had for your post but it read fairly Jerry Springer esk with chairs raised. I hope I was wrong because thats not helpful to a gaming community. As was my intentions I only posted what I thought was the rules as written. Never was insult or personal attack a aim or desired effect.

As far as my comic book knowledge I am more than happy with it. I do favor the DC over Marvel but understand the comic book sciences they bend and play with. I also know my real stuff strongly as well. No need for me to use magic hats over rear ends to pull stuff out of.

Finally the original poster made it clear what way of rule he wanted to use. No need to beat a dead horse since the topic was settled.

[Daniel Stoker]

I'm not sure it needs to be printed under every power but if SNPS was supposed to bypass all AR I'd think it would be listed under SNPS. If it's listed under only certain powers I'd rather naturally think those specific powers they chose to list that in were the only ones it then can bypass otherwise you'd think it would be listed in the power itself OR in the general rules somewhere.


Daniel Stoker

[Tor]

No really seeing the need or the point by point tear down of my post.

It helps me think, nothing personal. With even a medium-size post I can sometimes forget tidbits in the start by the time I get to the end, even upon a second read, so this way I avoid ignoring things unintentionally.

You kept stuffing house rule down my metaphorical throat. If I was at any point quoting a house rule of mine I would have stated it as I did when my only mention of a house rule of mine is I treat all body armors in sdc settings as natural A.R. for simplicity sake.

I accept that you do not view 'SNPS bypasses robotNAR' stance as a house rule, but we call it that to dismiss the stance as being invalid.

The notion that something has to be printed under every power or it does not count seems odd.

Exceptions have to be, unless they are in a place where they would apply universally, such as under the SNPS power, or under the NAR explanation.

if SNPS does damage specially to certain defenses while it would useful and nice to have it done so it was not how it was written up.

SNPS was not written up as bypassing any NAR at all. That property is only mentioned under a few APS powers, which is their vulnerability.

As with many other game systems the way attacks work on different things are often listed under those and not the attacks. Invulnerability states that SNPS does damage to it under its description and not under SNPS's entry.

Yes, but we have no explanation like that under Bio-Armor or Force Aura so it doesn't apply. Nor do robots have any explanation of their NAR being bypassable.

I have no control over book layouts so I am not sure why this is in here. Using it as some base for reasoning that because it is not listed in a portion we might like it to be then it only an exception is faulty.

The problem is not really the location, but the wording. The wording of NAR-bypassing is explicitly talking about NAR provided by a limited selection of powers, and is in no way ever portrayed as a universal means of NAR-bypassing.

As to why it was not listed under the portion of the book devoted to discussing natural armor rating? Well it may have left out to appear in its proper power catagory.

I have no clue what category you're referring to.

This leaves the GM the option of selecting what elements he wants in his game.

GMs are free to ignore or add or change any rule they like. We're discussing the established canon.

Bringing in instances of something from an alternate setting like nightbane is not helpful for a heroes unlimited game. Different sets of rules and concepts and annoyingly palladiums rules mutate setting to setting.

This has nothing to do with different rules, it is a Megaversal example of a character having an ability to bypass some kinds of armor ratings. Palladins have a similar ability in PF, more expensive than Spook Squad's but has other perks to it.

If you like an HU focus though, if we check out Physical Training's AR or Super-Soldier's AR, neither have statements about SNPS bypassing it. The SNPS bypass is a unique ability, and it is not a consistent rule. With powers like APS Ice and APS Crystal having different bypass rules than Stone/Metal I don't know how you can continue to think this is some kind of constant rule. Metal/Stone have the same rule because they're similar powers.

Palladium and many comic books have always had a thing for super powers nearly always being better and more powerful than technology.

Irrelevant. Sometimes tech ends up being a lot more impressive than we initially give it credit for. I instinctively side with magic/powers on the basis of sustainability, but tech has a lot of things like range, blast radius, damage-per-time, etc. going for it. NAR for bots is another instance of this, it surpasses APS Metal/Stone in regards to having an immunity to this bypass, just as some other powers are superior in this regard.

So in a situation of which would be better a big metal man or a armored robot then the bot would be the second best.

IE "I'm going to make a house rule because I don't like the idea of bots having an advantage over APSers".

That's just how it is bro. Even the Matter Expulsion guys have this advantage.

As for the different and many APSs in the book you have to look at the element they are reflecting. That topic is to varied and deep to go into here. But many of the powers that came in later books are often fan made and don't cover everything the main rule book might have for consideration.

Canon is canon, KS reads the powers, they went through. You can't disqualify canon just for not liking it. We've also pointed out powers that exist in the main HU2 book. Admittedly, Bio-Armor is a new power, can't recall if Force Aura was. But if you don't like new stuff: am pretty sure that SNPS bypassing NAR of Metal/Stone is a new limitation too.

I was posting what was in the book and what I strung together as to how NAR worked.

You mean the 2 instances you found and how these 2 for some reason outweigh the vast majority of other instances of NAR not having such statements, or the lack of such statements under the holy power itself, or AR explanations?

I am not sure about the tone you had for your post but it read fairly Jerry Springer esk with chairs raised. I hope I was wrong because thats not helpful to a gaming community.

I can assure you I remained seated while typing to you.

[Daniel Stoker]

Wait, I'm agreeing with Tor... I'm gonna have to change my position!


Daniel Stoker