PU2 Question - Super Abilities & Magic

[Daniel Stoker]

I'm looking for some advice on the Immortal power "Super Abilities & Magic" selection. In it it lists the spells the character can start with, 8 from levels 1-5 and then 5 from levels 7-9 as well as their starting PPE, but it doesn't give any indication about what increase in PPE they may get or what additional spells they can learn (if at all). Now the Wizard Supreme and the Magic & Psionics both list PPE increases, but only the Wizard Supreme offers both more spells and PPE and the "Magic: A Spell Casting Wizard" doesn't get either additional spells or PPE which seems wrong as well. I'd think it would be less then the Wizard Supreme for all of them, but it seems wrong that that's the only one that gets more spells and and I don't see why the 'Spell Casting Wizard' wouldn't get more PPE.


Daniel Stoker

[Alrik Vas]

Is there a question in there somewhere?

I think that magic is just much more limited in HU. Possibility or maybe there are general rules on gaining PPE for magic classes listed somewhere else, meaning the Wizard Supreme has a special amount of increase worth noting separately.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Gaining PPE is a function of the power cat/class. There are no general rules about gaining "Level Up" PPE.

PU2 Immortals get base of +1d6+4 PPE per level. As stated on page 59.

[Daniel Stoker]

Sorry it was at the beginning there before all the comparison, "I'm looking for some advice on the Immortal power "Super Abilities & Magic" selection.... what increase in PPE they may get or what additional spells they can learn (if at all)"?

Edit - And that answers half of it I guess, I totally missed that thank you Drew.


Daniel Stoker

[Alrik Vas]

Tadaaaa. Leave it to Drew to handle the SDC side of Palladium with efficiency.

[Daniel Stoker]

Still curious about additional magic. I'm going to assume they're not like a mystic and can learn new spells even if they don't get any spells per level, but I'd like anyone else's opinion on it.


Daniel Stoker

[Alrik Vas]

I don't see an issue with that. Does the class description talk about them not learning spells and only getting them intuitively? I'd say they can learn if they find them.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Still curious about additional magic. I'm going to assume they're not like a mystic and can learn new spells even if they don't get any spells per level, but I'd like anyone else's opinion on it.


Daniel Stoker

That would be a GM thing to decide if she is going to include any additional items to the stats giving for the powers options that do not include them.

Or...
You could sneak in text on the char sheet about it while keeping an innocent face on while you hand it to the GM.

[Daniel Stoker]

I don't see an issue with that. Does the class description talk about them not learning spells and only getting them intuitively? I'd say they can learn if they find them.

The problem is they don't actually flesh out what 'type' of magic user they are. Even the Wizard Supreme one doesn't say anything about being able to buy new spells to learn and it seems likely at least they would if not the other ones.


Daniel Stoker

[drewkitty ~..~]

Personally I would let them "learn" new spells as per the 'learning from a teacher' format with out any blinking of the eyes.

But the automatic 'level up' spells....<see previous post>

[Nightmask]

I don't see an issue with that. Does the class description talk about them not learning spells and only getting them intuitively? I'd say they can learn if they find them.

The problem is they don't actually flesh out what 'type' of magic user they are. Even the Wizard Supreme one doesn't say anything about being able to buy new spells to learn and it seems likely at least they would if not the other ones.


Daniel Stoker

Do you have to be told they can learn new spells before accepting that as a default they would? They're WIZARD Supremes after all, not MYSTIC Supremes, and wizards tend to be on the 'can learn any spell that can be learned given access to it' side of things.

[eliakon]

The ability to gain spells is much more vague in HU than in places like Rifts or Palladium Fantasy. The Mystic Study has rules for gaining new spells, but they don't really mesh with those from any of the other lines (what a surprise, its like its a whole different game line.....). HU also isn't as big on the 'kinds of magic' thing, since all the casters get lumped under one or two Power Categories, as opposed to the multiple highly nuanced classes of the other lines. The best way to handle gaining new spells is to probably ask your GM ahead of time how/if it will work in their game, which will likely be heavily influenced by the individual character concept.

[Daniel Stoker]

Do you have to be told they can learn new spells before accepting that as a default they would? They're WIZARD Supremes after all, not MYSTIC Supremes, and wizards tend to be on the 'can learn any spell that can be learned given access to it' side of things.

Nope, I'd hope they'd be able to but my point is it doesn't say any of them including the Wizard Supremes can so I'm not sure if other ones like the Super Powers + Magic could or not, and I was hoping to get others opinions.


Daniel Stoker

[13eowulf]

Still curious about additional magic. I'm going to assume they're not like a mystic and can learn new spells even if they don't get any spells per level, but I'd like anyone else's opinion on it.


Daniel Stoker

That would be a GM thing to decide if she is going to include any additional items to the stats giving for the powers options that do not include them.

Or...
You could sneak in text on the char sheet about it while keeping an innocent face on while you hand it to the GM.

This destroys trust. How long do you think a Player/GM relationship can be maintained without trust?

[Glistam]

Seems reasonable to me to allow the character to purchase/be taught spells as per the magic section of HU2.

[Daniel Stoker]

Honestly I thought so too, but it's my character and I admit I'm biased in favor of a yes answer.


Daniel Stoker

[Tor]

The ability to gain spells is much more vague in HU than in places like Rifts or Palladium Fantasy. The Mystic Study has rules for gaining new spells, but they don't really mesh with those from any of the other lines (what a surprise, its like its a whole different game line.....).

Or perhaps more simply, a whole different character class?

HU is lacking in guilds you can go buy spells from to supplement your level-up ones, so that's why rules were introduced for self-study, which takes a lot longer (weeks?) compared to learning it from guilds (days?) but is at least faster than inventing your own spells from scratch (TTGD, months)

[eliakon]

The ability to gain spells is much more vague in HU than in places like Rifts or Palladium Fantasy. The Mystic Study has rules for gaining new spells, but they don't really mesh with those from any of the other lines (what a surprise, its like its a whole different game line.....).

Or perhaps more simply, a whole different character class?

HU is lacking in guilds you can go buy spells from to supplement your level-up ones, so that's why rules were introduced for self-study, which takes a lot longer (weeks?) compared to learning it from guilds (days?) but is at least faster than inventing your own spells from scratch (TTGD, months)

Except that you get stuff like taking 1d4 MONTHS to learn a spell from your master. In every other game line that's 2days per level. At that rate a level 15 spell would take one month, four months is insane unless your learning something like a level 60 spell.....
....Or your in the canon HU universe where magic seems to work differently.....

[drewkitty ~..~]

Still curious about additional magic. I'm going to assume they're not like a mystic and can learn new spells even if they don't get any spells per level, but I'd like anyone else's opinion on it.


Daniel Stoker

That would be a GM thing to decide if she is going to include any additional items to the stats giving for the powers options that do not include them.

Or...
You could sneak in text on the char sheet about it while keeping an innocent face on while you hand it to the GM.

This destroys trust. How long do you think a Player/GM relationship can be maintained without trust?

Gee...did I forget to put in a " ".

[Glistam]

The ability to gain spells is much more vague in HU than in places like Rifts or Palladium Fantasy. The Mystic Study has rules for gaining new spells, but they don't really mesh with those from any of the other lines (what a surprise, its like its a whole different game line.....).

Or perhaps more simply, a whole different character class?

HU is lacking in guilds you can go buy spells from to supplement your level-up ones, so that's why rules were introduced for self-study, which takes a lot longer (weeks?) compared to learning it from guilds (days?) but is at least faster than inventing your own spells from scratch (TTGD, months)

One of the adventures in the GM's Guide introduces two guilds.

[Ranger]

Still curious about additional magic. I'm going to assume they're not like a mystic and can learn new spells even if they don't get any spells per level, but I'd like anyone else's opinion on it.


Daniel Stoker

I use the rule that they get at least one spell level per every year of age. Over and above what they have listed from the book.

[green.nova343]

Gaining PPE is a function of the power cat/class. There are no general rules about gaining "Level Up" PPE.

PU2 Immortals get base of +1d6+4 PPE per level. As stated on page 59.

Just as a quick clarification, all Immortals get that base for P.P.E. Immortals with spell-casting get additional P.P.E. to their starting base (although not per level), as noted in the random table on p. 64. Note that some descriptions state they get extra P.P.E., while others list it as a base.

As for learning new spells, I would divide them into 2 categories:
-- the Immortals who combine spell-casting with another source of power (i.e. Magic & Psionics, Super Abilities & Magic) can gain spells as they advance. However, the only way they should learn the spells is either the 'shortcut' option (HU2, p.151 -- chance for 1 mid- to high-level spell,or more likely 2-4 low-level spells) or option #1 under "Learning Other Spells" (i.e. each time they advance,they can learn 2 spells of their same level or lower). The only other option might be option #3 (supernatural entity grants them 1D4 spells), but that should be a maybe once-in-a-lifetime experience.
-- Immortals who only have spell-casting (i.e. Spell-casting Wizard or Wizard Supreme) have all of the options available for learning spells, including both automatic spells, learning from a mentor, granting, translation, etc. Of course, in the case of learning from their mentor, one would hope that the mentor was also immortal (nothing like trying to find your mentor 300 years after he died...).

Of course, looking at HU2 now, it bothers me that there are essentially two methods for a wizard to automatically learn spells: the "shortcut" & the "option 1". Was that supposed to be an "either/or" type of option? Because you could end up with a wizard easily learning 3-6 low-level spells every time...or a mid-range wizard learning 3 spells every time, all without any effort.

[drewkitty ~..~]

In the Mystic Study power cat it is "ether/or", "one or the other".

The Immortal power cat does not share anything with the MS PC as per RAW.
GMs of individual games may change this for their games through GM fiat.

[Tor]

Perhaps settings like Rifts allow you to learn magic faster because the magic energy in the air is so saturated.

It's harder to get the sparks flying in HU.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The Being Taught a spell options in HU2 are different because it fits the genre of the setting where magic is rare and hard to get.

It also fits the genre of the setting in that there is time between scenarios where a mage can go 'back to the master' to learn a new spell or two. Or to explain why the mage hero is substituted with another hero.

[Tor]

Genre-fitting is our out-of-universe explanation. We still need in-universe explanations to justify author fiat. Which is why I propose PPE-saturation.

Perhaps PPE saturation, though helping with learning magic, interferes with SDC regeneration, which is why SDC is regenerated so quickly in N&SS and TMNT, because magic sucks there.

[Sir_Spirit]

Meh, don't see why you can't figure put a spell per level.

[Stone Gargoyle]

The spells are limited because you already have superpowers. They are essentially giving you two classes for the price of one, so they limit it by not allowing you to learn spells. Personally my house rules are different, but that is how it is in the books.

[Sir_Spirit]

The spells are limited because you already have superpowers. They are essentially giving you two classes for the price of one, so they limit it by not allowing you to learn spells. Personally my house rules are different, but that is how it is in the books.

Since they don't say you can't learn spells, claiming you can't is an unproven assumption.
So, as I said, I don't see why you can't learn spells.

[eliakon]

The spells are limited because you already have superpowers. They are essentially giving you two classes for the price of one, so they limit it by not allowing you to learn spells. Personally my house rules are different, but that is how it is in the books.

Since they don't say you can't learn spells, claiming you can't is an unproven assumption.
So, as I said, I don't see why you can't learn spells.

It doesn't say you can either. So your back to 'GM must make a house rule' Remember that 'can learn spells' is NOT the default setting for magic in palladium, only for 'academic' sorts of classes, which this may or may not be.

[Sir_Spirit]

It doesn't say you can either.

The rules for spellcasters in HU does specifically say they can learn new spells. See Mystic Study in the magic section of HU.
Being an immortal doesn't make you less competent at spellcasting.

[Glistam]

It doesn't say you can either.

The rules for spellcasters in HU does specifically say they can learn new spells. See Mystic Study in the magic section of HU.
Being an immortal doesn't make you less competent at spellcasting.

Being an Immortal doesn't make you a Mystic Study, either.

[Nightmask]

It doesn't say you can either.

The rules for spellcasters in HU does specifically say they can learn new spells. See Mystic Study in the magic section of HU.
Being an immortal doesn't make you less competent at spellcasting.

Being an Immortal doesn't make you a Mystic Study, either.

If you're a mage it does, since we aren't told the spell-caster Immortals spontaneously learn spells or can't learn new spells then they do have the ability to do so.

[Glistam]

It doesn't say you can either.

The rules for spellcasters in HU does specifically say they can learn new spells. See Mystic Study in the magic section of HU.
Being an immortal doesn't make you less competent at spellcasting.

Being an Immortal doesn't make you a Mystic Study, either.

If you're a mage it does, since we aren't told the spell-caster Immortals spontaneously learn spells or can't learn new spells then they do have the ability to do so.

That's a flawed argument. The exact same logic can be used to say "Since we aren't told the spell-caster Immortals don't spontaneously learn spells or can learn new spells, then they do not have the ability ability to do so." I can also say "since we aren't told the spell-caster Immortals spontaneously can turn into avocados then they have the ability to do so."

They have the abilities they are listed as having. Any further extrapolation based on completely separate power categories is a house rule and a G.M. decision.

[eliakon]

It doesn't say you can either.

The rules for spellcasters in HU does specifically say they can learn new spells. See Mystic Study in the magic section of HU.
Being an immortal doesn't make you less competent at spellcasting.

Being an Immortal doesn't make you a Mystic Study, either.

If you're a mage it does, since we aren't told the spell-caster Immortals spontaneously learn spells or can't learn new spells then they do have the ability to do so.

Incorrect. Again there is nothing in the rules that says the default condition is "can learn spells". The fact that one Power Category can learn spells, as an explicit power of that category, does not mean that all magic users in HU can learn spells. All that can be generalized is that Mystic Studies can. Note that Mystic Imbued can start with spells and can NOT gain new spells. So base book, two classes and one of each. Being an Immortal may let you, it may not. I doubt there is a blanket rule and that it should be ruled on, by the GM on a case by case basis.

[Nightmask]

It doesn't say you can either.

The rules for spellcasters in HU does specifically say they can learn new spells. See Mystic Study in the magic section of HU.
Being an immortal doesn't make you less competent at spellcasting.

Being an Immortal doesn't make you a Mystic Study, either.

If you're a mage it does, since we aren't told the spell-caster Immortals spontaneously learn spells or can't learn new spells then they do have the ability to do so.

That's a flawed argument. The exact same logic can be used to say "Since we aren't told the spell-caster Immortals don't spontaneously learn spells or can learn new spells, then they do not have the ability ability to do so." I can also say "since we aren't told the spell-caster Immortals spontaneously can turn into avocados then they have the ability to do so."

They have the abilities they are listed as having. Any further extrapolation based on completely separate power categories is a house rule and a G.M. decision.

The flaw is in trying to treat both arguments as being equal, they aren't (as well as tossing out a fallacious comparison to confuse the issue). The spell-casting options for the Immortal imply them to be mages, learned abilities, not spontaneous or unable to learn more. They have the abilities of a mage they learn like mages.

[Glistam]

The flaw is in trying to treat both arguments as being equal, they aren't (as well as tossing out a fallacious comparison to confuse the issue). The spell-casting options for the Immortal imply them to be mages, learned abilities, not spontaneous or unable to learn more. They have the abilities of a mage they learn like mages.

That is a reasonable house rule and I hope it serves your games well.

[Daniel Stoker]

The spells are limited because you already have superpowers. They are essentially giving you two classes for the price of one, so they limit it by not allowing you to learn spells. Personally my house rules are different, but that is how it is in the books.

The problem is it's not the only one that's limited, even the Wizard Supreme one doesn't say anything about being able to buy new spells to learn and it seems likely at least they would if not the other ones.


Daniel Stoker

[Stone Gargoyle]

The spells are limited because you already have superpowers. They are essentially giving you two classes for the price of one, so they limit it by not allowing you to learn spells. Personally my house rules are different, but that is how it is in the books.

The problem is it's not the only one that's limited, even the Wizard Supreme one doesn't say anything about being able to buy new spells to learn and it seems likely at least they would if not the other ones.


Daniel Stoker

I would agree that it is poorly written, which is why I have House Rules to compensate and correct that.

[Daniel Stoker]

See I think they both would be able to learn new spells that they buy but I think they wouldn't get any new spells per level like the Ley Line Walker, but that's me and I admit the rules don't say that at all.


Daniel Stoker

[Reagren Wright]

Let's apply a little realism to the game. You mean to tell me this "wizard superme dragon",
learned all his magic 1000 years ago, at 1st level, and for the next 1000 years, he can't learn
another spell? Why? I am under the logical assumption that a wizard supreme is a wizard of
mystic study, meaning he can learn new spells, now if you are one with super powers then you
probably are not going to gain new spells. All of this again really depends upon G.M., if he lets
you then it's okay, and that is the way Kevin says all Palladium games should be run.

[Slight001]

Let's apply a little realism to the game. You mean to tell me this "wizard superme dragon",
learned all his magic 1000 years ago, at 1st level, and for the next 1000 years, he can't learn
another spell? Why? I am under the logical assumption that a wizard supreme is a wizard of
mystic study, meaning he can learn new spells, now if you are one with super powers then you
probably are not going to gain new spells. All of this again really depends upon G.M., if he lets
you then it's okay, and that is the way Kevin says all Palladium games should be run.

Personally I find it total BS that not all mage classes don't at least learn spells per level. This crap about relying upon the GM to be fair and let the mages gain new spells is a BS approach to creating a game. The development of a player's character shouldn't rely upon the whim of another.

[Nightmask]

Let's apply a little realism to the game. You mean to tell me this "wizard superme dragon",
learned all his magic 1000 years ago, at 1st level, and for the next 1000 years, he can't learn
another spell? Why? I am under the logical assumption that a wizard supreme is a wizard of
mystic study, meaning he can learn new spells, now if you are one with super powers then you
probably are not going to gain new spells. All of this again really depends upon G.M., if he lets
you then it's okay, and that is the way Kevin says all Palladium games should be run.

Personally I find it total BS that not all mage classes don't at least learn spells per level. This crap about relying upon the GM to be fair and let the mages gain new spells is a BS approach to creating a game. The development of a player's character shouldn't rely upon the whim of another.

But unfortunately that's the way it too often is. So you end up with cases where mages never grow or improve over time or do so so slowly that you don't feel like you're gaining and developing your character at all.

[eliakon]

Let's apply a little realism to the game. You mean to tell me this "wizard superme dragon",
learned all his magic 1000 years ago, at 1st level, and for the next 1000 years, he can't learn
another spell? Why? I am under the logical assumption that a wizard supreme is a wizard of
mystic study, meaning he can learn new spells, now if you are one with super powers then you
probably are not going to gain new spells. All of this again really depends upon G.M., if he lets
you then it's okay, and that is the way Kevin says all Palladium games should be run.

Personally I find it total BS that not all mage classes don't at least learn spells per level. This crap about relying upon the GM to be fair and let the mages gain new spells is a BS approach to creating a game. The development of a player's character shouldn't rely upon the whim of another.

But unfortunately that's the way it too often is. So you end up with cases where mages never grow or improve over time or do so so slowly that you don't feel like you're gaining and developing your character at all.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Palladium and the Front Loaded character. Its not just mages, huge swaths of the Palladium character landscape are totally or nearly so Front Loaded. In many ways its a surprise that more magic classes aren't like that actually.