tattoo magic

[say652]

any suggestions for what tattoos to allow and how to convert them? and would true atlanteans be considered "aliens" ?

[Damian Magecraft]

any suggestions for what tattoos to allow and how to convert them? and would true atlanteans be considered "aliens" ?

I would allow all Tats.
Converting them I would use a point for point conversion. IE: 1 MD = 1 SD
and Yes Atlanteans would be classified as Aliens.

[Glistam]

Any dimensional or extra-terrestrial being would technically be an alien. As far as converting the tattoos, try this post.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The problem with converting "magic weapon" Tattoos is that the MD rating is equal to the SD rating of the "Weapons Simple" tattoos.
I would have the "magic weapons" to convert to ratingx10.
I.e.: a 2D6 MD magic weapon would end up doing 2D6x10 SD.

[Damian Magecraft]

The problem with converting "magic weapon" Tattoos is that the MD rating is equal to the SD rating of the "Weapons Simple" tattoos.
I would have the "magic weapons" to convert to ratingx10.
I.e.: a 2D6 MD magic weapon would end up doing 2D6x10 SD.

or as an alternative to avoid excessive damage bloat... just have MD weapons do double or triple damage instead.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I don't see why this was posted here as opposed to the Guild of Magic & Psionics Forum, which would have been more appropriate.

[Glistam]

Because he wants to use tattoo magic in a Heroes Unlimited setting, making it appropriate?

[say652]

me and Stoney go waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy back, the and a certain Kittycat proofreading my posts for grammar and proper posting order. just part of the forums i think.
Now StoneGargoyle i posted here because like in the above "bluethingy" some tattoos bestow temporary super abilities. I was wondering if I should limit them like powers.

[Stone Gargoyle]

I am always in favor of setting limits to powers and magic has a limited duration based on the spell involved. You might always have a tattoo, but the spell it activates is limited in range and duration, so any power created as such would be limited by the spell magic.

[Tor]

The problem with converting "magic weapon" Tattoos is that the MD rating is equal to the SD rating of the "Weapons Simple" tattoos.
I would have the "magic weapons" to convert to ratingx10.
I.e.: a 2D6 MD magic weapon would end up doing 2D6x10 SD.

Change all flaming tats to dripping blood tats, problem solved.

[GlitterKnight]

Good thread! I have been wanting to convert Tattoo Magic to HU for awhile myself. I love T Men and it's a good fit. It would also make the animal tattoos actually useful. The tattoos giving powers instead of the ability originally written seems too strong. Most ape spells anyway, do I feel like they should be kept as close to original as possible. I like doubling the damage for flaming weapons, and they count as magical. They definitely don't need to do x10, since that's unnecessarily going into MDC territory.

[Tor]

just have MD weapons do double or triple damage instead.

Would definitely go with triple since the blood-dripping one does double.

[SolCannibal]

I would suggest getting a look at Chiang Six - the forerunner of Tatoo Magic and the Chiang Ku dragons - in Villains Unlimited and using him and his particular assortment of tattoos as a reference for conversion and then tweak to your taste whatever you feel like needs some adjustment.

Hmmmm, in a completely unrelated question...

Does anyone know of other characters beside Chiang Six, from Villains Unlimited or not, that generated some sort of setting expansion of this kind? Character background evolving into setting background material, so to speak? Now i'm kind of curious.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The problem with converting "magic weapon" Tattoos is that the MD rating is equal to the SD rating of the "Weapons Simple" tattoos.
I would have the "magic weapons" to convert to ratingx10.
I.e.: a 2D6 MD magic weapon would end up doing 2D6x10 SD.

or as an alternative to avoid excessive damage bloat... just have MD weapons do double or triple damage instead.

The reasons behind setting the damage to rating x10 is to not "nerf" the 'specialness' of what those weapons are conceptually are suppose to do. I didn't want to be a 'nerfherder' with doing a 1 to 1 conversion between MD to SD that is the 'normal' conversion rate. Because this would set the 'Weapons Simple' tattoo at near the same damage rating as the Magic Tattoo weapon's damage rating.

Then again I did not want to go the full munchkin and just have the Magic Weapons do Rating x100.

So the rating x10 is a balance between nerfherding and going the full munchkin, while still keeping the specialness of the magic weapon tattoo, special.

[eliakon]

The problem with converting "magic weapon" Tattoos is that the MD rating is equal to the SD rating of the "Weapons Simple" tattoos.
I would have the "magic weapons" to convert to ratingx10.
I.e.: a 2D6 MD magic weapon would end up doing 2D6x10 SD.

or as an alternative to avoid excessive damage bloat... just have MD weapons do double or triple damage instead.

The reasons behind setting the damage to rating x10 is to not "nerf" the 'specialness' of what those weapons are conceptually are suppose to do. I didn't want to be a 'nerfherder' with doing a 1 to 1 conversion between MD to SD that is the 'normal' conversion rate. Because this would set the 'Weapons Simple' tattoo at near the same damage rating as the Magic Tattoo weapon's damage rating.

Then again I did not want to go the full munchkin and just have the Magic Weapons do Rating x100.

So the rating x10 is a balance between nerfherding and going the full munchkin, while still keeping the specialness of the magic weapon tattoo, special.

So why should tattoos get special consideration though? If you travel dimensions, then you take your risks.
Does a laser get a x10 bonus?
What about a spell?
Heck, my go to answer would be "I'm sorry this universe doesn't support MD, so they don't get that physics defying boost"
I wouldn't even give a x2 I would just give a straight 1:1 conversion like every other magic OR I would say that ALL MD sources become x10. But I am not going to give one special group a privileged conversion, THAT way lies munchkinism, favoritisim, and rules lawyering.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The differential I am note is between the Weapons Simple Tattoos and the Magic Weapons Tattoos. And how if you stick "The Standard" MD to SD conversion the Magic Weapon Tattoos that do MD do the same or less then the weapon tattoos that just do SD in a MDC/MD setting.

And I was trying to Strike A Balance between "The Standard" conversions that would Nerf the tattoo weapons' damage (and the char over) and having them too powerful.

Thus, keeping the "This does more damage then those that just do SD in rifts" idea, while still converting the damage for SDC/SD settings.

Otherwise you would need to Rewrite the whole Tattoo section for use in SDC/SD settings, so the text is written for use in the SDC/SD environment.

BTW I never said anything about Dimensional Travelers in connection with this topic. In fact most of my thoughts were for the magic tattoo user that was not a D-T.

[eliakon]

The differential I am note is between the Weapons Simple Tattoos and the Magic Weapons Tattoos. And how if you stick "The Standard" MD to SD conversion the Magic Weapon Tattoos that do MD do the same or less then the weapon tattoos that just do SD in a MDC/MD setting.

And I was trying to Strike A Balance between "The Standard" conversions that would Nerf the tattoo weapons' damage (and the char over) and having them too powerful.

Thus, keeping the "This does more damage then those that just do SD in rifts" idea, while still converting the damage for SDC/SD settings.

Otherwise you would need to Rewrite the whole Tattoo section for use in SDC/SD settings, so the text is written for use in the SDC/SD environment.

BTW I never said anything about Dimensional Travelers in connection with this topic. In fact most of my thoughts were for the magic tattoo user that was not a D-T.

Simpler solution. For a T-man made in the game....just only use simple tattoos. If you import from outside, then you suffer the same effects of import as every other person. The whole idea that one special class should get a privliged conversion rule that is literally ten TIMES better than anyone elses (never mind what x10 damage from weapons, but only x1 to defenses will do) is pretty much the ESSENCE of munchkin.

[SolCannibal]

The differential I am note is between the Weapons Simple Tattoos and the Magic Weapons Tattoos. And how if you stick "The Standard" MD to SD conversion the Magic Weapon Tattoos that do MD do the same or less then the weapon tattoos that just do SD in a MDC/MD setting.

And I was trying to Strike A Balance between "The Standard" conversions that would Nerf the tattoo weapons' damage (and the char over) and having them too powerful.

Thus, keeping the "This does more damage then those that just do SD in rifts" idea, while still converting the damage for SDC/SD settings.

Otherwise you would need to Rewrite the whole Tattoo section for use in SDC/SD settings, so the text is written for use in the SDC/SD environment.

BTW I never said anything about Dimensional Travelers in connection with this topic. In fact most of my thoughts were for the magic tattoo user that was not a D-T.

Simpler solution. For a T-man made in the game....just only use simple tattoos. If you import from outside, then you suffer the same effects of import as every other person. The whole idea that one special class should get a privliged conversion rule that is literally ten TIMES better than anyone elses (never mind what x10 damage from weapons, but only x1 to defenses will do) is pretty much the ESSENCE of munchkin.

In think the matter is more "magic weapon x simple weapon" than anything else - unless the ambient magic energy was null, case in which you would most probably be unable to use any - the magical ones should have a bit more oomph than simples ones, that are "just" materialized, on principle i guess.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Simpler solution. For a T-man made in the game....just only use simple tattoos. If you import from outside, then you suffer the same effects of import as every other person. The whole idea that one special class should get a privliged conversion rule that is literally ten TIMES better than anyone elses (never mind what x10 damage from weapons, but only x1 to defenses will do) is pretty much the ESSENCE of munchkin.

I will have to say that you "simple solution" has some merits....but we are also talking about Heros Unlimited. Where you get high powered chars, even that would be what a munchkin would drool over, as possible canon made chars.

Your "simple solution" is better suited for the PF setting.

[say652]

Well I have an atlantean undeadslayer joining my party. I will let you know.

[Sir_Spirit]

Hmm, personally I don't see a x10 damage boost as being balanced. I think you should double magic weapon damage if you want it to be superior to simple weapons.
Or just allow magic weapons to damage things that normal weapons won't, but NOT allow simple weapon Tats to damage anything normal weapons wouldn't(vampires/werewolves/invulnerable characters etc....)...a magic weapon may also appear to be made of a special material, SIlver/wood/gold etc...
Simple weapons look plain..

[Tor]

I wouldn't even give a x2 I would just give a straight 1:1 conversion like every other magic OR I would say that ALL MD sources become x10. But I am not going to give one special group a privileged conversion, THAT way lies munchkinism, favoritisim, and rules lawyering.

Straight 1:1 is nonsensical, it removes the incentive to use magic weapons if simple ones do the same damage.

Flaming weapons should always do more than blood-dripping. Since the latter does double, flaming should do triple or "double plus an extra die" or something like that, at minimum.

[eliakon]

I wouldn't even give a x2 I would just give a straight 1:1 conversion like every other magic OR I would say that ALL MD sources become x10. But I am not going to give one special group a privileged conversion, THAT way lies munchkinism, favoritisim, and rules lawyering.

Straight 1:1 is nonsensical, it removes the incentive to use magic weapons if simple ones do the same damage.

Flaming weapons should always do more than blood-dripping. Since the latter does double, flaming should do triple or "double plus an extra die" or something like that, at minimum.

Why? When converting something from another game line, sometimes what is optimum there is not optimum here.
A Tattoo man from another world might have tattoos that are less efficient (flaming). A local Tattoo man on the other hand might be under equipped in another dimension (too many simple weapons).

[say652]

The godspawn keep bouncing back and forth between the two dimensions. PowerSurge thinks its kinda like a Safari.

[Tor]

Eliakon part of the problem is that it's implied that magic tats were invented for use by Chaing-Ku and Atlanteans back a ways, when magic was stronger, but so far as I know it wasn't MD-strong, so I'm led to assume it was an SDC setting, so inventing the flaming weapons had to make sense back then.

Or why, for another example, would Atlanteans continue to make their mark of heritage an inefficient flaming sword as they fled to SDC dimensions?

[eliakon]

Eliakon part of the problem is that it's implied that magic tats were invented for use by Chaing-Ku and Atlanteans back a ways, when magic was stronger, but so far as I know it wasn't MD-strong, so I'm led to assume it was an SDC setting, so inventing the flaming weapons had to make sense back then.

Or why, for another example, would Atlanteans continue to make their mark of heritage an inefficient flaming sword as they fled to SDC dimensions?

who says they did?
Phase Word (where the population of Atlanteans is larger than it EVER was on Earth) has MD magic. The Atlantean race is big on dimensional exploration...why not have a weapon that works in multiple dimensions?
As for why they still have the MoH flaming....that Heritage thing, you know the whole 'millennia of tradition?' *breaks into a rendition of the song Tradition here*

[Tor]

The marks of heritage presumably originated on earth prior to them emigrating to Phase World... =/

Their tradition would hold them back...

I guess one possible advantage here...

I am not entirely clear if Simple Weapons count as magic weapons or not. For example, if I have a Simple Weapon tattoo which creates a wooden staff, if I hit a Zavor with it, would the Zavor be beaten to death, or be unharmed and split in two?

I think everyone would agree that Magic Weapons would split the Zavor, but I'm not sure about Simple weapons.

Having the flaming weapons be magical would be a good distinction since it could hurt some creatures only harmable (or perhaps extra-harmed) by magic weapons.

Even then though... we're still left trying to distinguish between bleeding and flaming.

Flaming should have some advantage that bleeding doesn't, for its cost.

[eliakon]

The marks of heritage presumably originated on earth prior to them emigrating to Phase World... =/

Their tradition would hold them back...

I guess one possible advantage here...

I am not entirely clear if Simple Weapons count as magic weapons or not. For example, if I have a Simple Weapon tattoo which creates a wooden staff, if I hit a Zavor with it, would the Zavor be beaten to death, or be unharmed and split in two?

I think everyone would agree that Magic Weapons would split the Zavor, but I'm not sure about Simple weapons.

Having the flaming weapons be magical would be a good distinction since it could hurt some creatures only harmable (or perhaps extra-harmed) by magic weapons.

Even then though... we're still left trying to distinguish between bleeding and flaming.

Flaming should have some advantage that bleeding doesn't, for its cost.

It does. In some worlds it is quite optimal, just not all of them.
Its the same reason that a SD weapon that does 3d6x10 sd(1md) is better in an SDC universe than a MD weapon that does 1d4 MD....the MD gun doesn't do 1d4x100 SD here, it doesn't do 1d4x10, it does 1d4 (assuming your using the normal conversion)
Some times the best tool for a job is the one that was build for the job......Use SD optimized stuff in SD worlds, and MD optimized stuff in MD worlds.

[Tor]

I'm not sure we actually have conversion notes for magic tattoos in SDC settings. I don't think it's a topic that's been addressed, has it?

In the very least, it should do the same as bloody (double) and then add +1 or something, out of principle.

[eliakon]

I'm not sure we actually have conversion notes for magic tattoos in SDC settings. I don't think it's a topic that's been addressed, has it?

In the very least, it should do the same as bloody (double) and then add +1 or something, out of principle.

regular weapons conversion notes are pretty clear change the M to an S.
Magic is pretty clear, again just turn an M to an S
There is, in my mind, no reason why a Tattoo would convert differently than anything else. So with that in mind....
Simple Weapon: 2 PPE 30 min/level Does normal SD damage for the weapon
Flaming Weapon: 10 PPE 15 min/level Does normal SD damage for the weapon
Bloody Weapon: 5 PPE 15 min/level Does x2 the normal SD damage for the weapon

Why does a Bloody weapon do more than a flaming weapon? Because its magic. The flaming weapon is trying to utilize a principle (mega damage magic) that doesn't work in the dimension. That doesn't mean that it will become more efficient in other areas to compensate, it means that it just doesn't work as well as it could. Its like saying that if you drive an airplane down the road it should be faster and more maneuverable than a sports car.

[Tor]

Magic MD tattoo weapons aren't regular weapons, 'magic' conversions refer to magic spells.

Keep in mind that when MD missiles go to SDC settings, they do x10 the SDC of the MD they inflict, so there's present for things other than 1:1.

There's no source for saying that flaming is trying to 'utilize a principle' (in spite of the odd Tarn reference, there's no indication it's a recognized principle otherwise), it is simply a result of the most powerful weapon type.

I don't see the applicability of cars/planes here.

[eliakon]

Magic MD tattoo weapons aren't regular weapons, 'magic' conversions refer to magic spells.

CB1r pg 31 "Magic Weapons usually convert on a point for point basis...."

Keep in mind that when MD missiles go to SDC settings, they do x10 the SDC of the MD they inflict, so there's present for things other than 1:1.

Yes huge amounts of explosives get a boost....since the missiles get an EXPLICIT 'hey this is different' conversion that would suggest that it is the exception not the rule.
<edit> that said, I would be willing to consider something like the Vibro-Blade conversion, and allowing flaming to get x2, or perhaps x3 damage.

There's no source for saying that flaming is trying to 'utilize a principle' (in spite of the odd Tarn reference, there's no indication it's a recognized principle otherwise), it is simply a result of the most powerful weapon type.

I don't see the applicability of cars/planes here.

The principle that is trying to be used is MegaDamage. If a dimension doesn't have mega damage, then something designed to use the laws of magic that allow things to do MegaDamage is going to do MegaDamage...

The airplane/car thing is that the Airplane IS faster/more maneuverable...in the air. Its the MD weapon/spell. In an MD universe (the air) its superior. In an SD universe (staying on the ground) its not superior. It is outperformed by something designed to utilize the lesser capacities.

[Tor]

"usually" allows for exceptions, which this should be, to keep the respective blood/flame balance.

Interesting thing about the vibro-blades. When you mention it I do recall vaguely reading something about that... but can't recall where. Good find.

I guess I don't think of SD/MD as earth/air which is why the analogy is hard to relate to. I look at it as more of a 'flame is better than blood, an in MD settings the betterness is represented by MD' issue.