Super natural strength questions.
Moderators: Supreme Beings, Immortals, Old Ones
- Severus Snape
- Hero
- Posts: 1214
- Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:46 pm
- Comment: You ought to be careful. People will think you're....up....to something.
- Location: Hogwarts School of Witchcraft & Wizardry
- Contact:
Re: Super natural strength questions.
2 questions, so I'll answer each one separately:
1. If the character ends up with SNPS at character creation, the the PS bonuses don't apply from skill selection. However, as a GM, I'd rule that as he ended up with SNPS as a result of his having the powers grow with age (or something else that grants him a new power at specific levels), then the SNPS is added on top of whatever his current PS is. It would be too hard to go back and re-figure the PS of the character at this point, and I'm guessing he didn't write down all of the bonuses to his original PS score. Most PS bonuses are single digits, but some are a roll of the dice, and unless he wrote them down, it's going to be too hard to refigure the PS score.
2. Damage for kicks are listed in the combat section in HU.
1. If the character ends up with SNPS at character creation, the the PS bonuses don't apply from skill selection. However, as a GM, I'd rule that as he ended up with SNPS as a result of his having the powers grow with age (or something else that grants him a new power at specific levels), then the SNPS is added on top of whatever his current PS is. It would be too hard to go back and re-figure the PS of the character at this point, and I'm guessing he didn't write down all of the bonuses to his original PS score. Most PS bonuses are single digits, but some are a roll of the dice, and unless he wrote them down, it's going to be too hard to refigure the PS score.
2. Damage for kicks are listed in the combat section in HU.
- drewkitty ~..~
- Monk
- Posts: 17782
- Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Eastvale, calif
- Contact:
Re: Super natural strength questions.
I)(SNPS) *stands agaste that you don't keep track of what bonuses your char has*
My chars are all digital so I do keep track of what skills gave what bonuses. 'What are just a few more electrons?'
The easy way to deal with this would be just to add on top of the current PS score the PS score bonuses from the SNPS hero power.
However, if you want things to be 'book legal' then you need to subtract the PS bonuses from the char's physical skills.
If you do not remember the exact bonuses, then you can ether take the maximum amount of possible points added from the PS score or the min. amount of possible bonuses or the median amount (To get the median, take the max and min add divide by two.), or some way you think should take place.
2)(SNPS kick damage) the 'book legal' way is for the kick to cause the same amount of MD as a full punch does in a 'not a extremely low magic, MDC environment.'
(Splicers is a Extremely Low Magic, MDC setting.)
2.1) Everything in your game is subject to your GM's rulings.

My chars are all digital so I do keep track of what skills gave what bonuses. 'What are just a few more electrons?'
The easy way to deal with this would be just to add on top of the current PS score the PS score bonuses from the SNPS hero power.
However, if you want things to be 'book legal' then you need to subtract the PS bonuses from the char's physical skills.
If you do not remember the exact bonuses, then you can ether take the maximum amount of possible points added from the PS score or the min. amount of possible bonuses or the median amount (To get the median, take the max and min add divide by two.), or some way you think should take place.
2)(SNPS kick damage) the 'book legal' way is for the kick to cause the same amount of MD as a full punch does in a 'not a extremely low magic, MDC environment.'
(Splicers is a Extremely Low Magic, MDC setting.)
2.1) Everything in your game is subject to your GM's rulings.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
Re: Super natural strength questions.
Contrary to drewkitty's view book legal would be adding the supernatural strength roll onto the existing strength stat as the character acquired the supernatural strength long after the character was initially created. It wouldn't make logical sense that somehow gaining that power would augment the character's strength yet somehow those few points from the skills it could tell were training and now they magically disappear. That's how the power found the character, he didn't attempt to train in those skills after he had the power.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
- AlanGunhouse
- Champion
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:55 am
- Location: Fostoria, Ohio
Re: Super natural strength questions.
If a character already has built up their muscles before gaining SNS, or if they only have it on a part-time basis (like being a Lycanthrope or having Animal Abilities: Cetacean), then I would allow them to keep the bonuses...but I tend to dislike powers that grow (personal taste question).
- TechnoGothic
- Knight
- Posts: 5179
- Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Near Tampa Florida
Re: Super natural strength questions.
Character PS Stays the Same. Add 30+2d6 (supernatural ps) to his already established strength level. From that point on, if he selects Physical Skills he no longer gains bonuses by the rules due to his training.
OK, My opinion time...
IGNORE the part that say gains no PS bonuses from Physical skills. The Super in question can still Train to lift more weights. But those weights are of course he greater and greater...ect...Have them Role-play out the training, it can be fun, trust me. Remember in the Incredibles when Mr.Incredible was training in the train yard to get back into shape ?
Some of the Rules in HU2 are just dumb, yeah. Use Common Sense as a GM if you should or should apply bonuses due to training
OK, My opinion time...
IGNORE the part that say gains no PS bonuses from Physical skills. The Super in question can still Train to lift more weights. But those weights are of course he greater and greater...ect...Have them Role-play out the training, it can be fun, trust me. Remember in the Incredibles when Mr.Incredible was training in the train yard to get back into shape ?
Some of the Rules in HU2 are just dumb, yeah. Use Common Sense as a GM if you should or should apply bonuses due to training

TechnoGothic
END OF LINE

"The best things in life are to crush your enemies, drive them before you, and hear the lamentations of their women."-Conan
END OF LINE

"The best things in life are to crush your enemies, drive them before you, and hear the lamentations of their women."-Conan
Re: Super natural strength questions.
TechnoGothic wrote:Character PS Stays the Same. Add 30+2d6 (supernatural ps) to his already established strength level. From that point on, if he selects Physical Skills he no longer gains bonuses by the rules due to his training.
OK, My opinion time...
IGNORE the part that say gains no PS bonuses from Physical skills. The Super in question can still Train to lift more weights. But those weights are of course he greater and greater...ect...Have them Role-play out the training, it can be fun, trust me. Remember in the Incredibles when Mr.Incredible was training in the train yard to get back into shape ?
Some of the Rules in HU2 are just dumb, yeah. Use Common Sense as a GM if you should or should apply bonuses due to training
Most likely it comes from the way Heroes Unlimited is set up, namely that supernatural PS is so incredibly amped compared to regular strength the assumption is you simply don't have the kind of weights available for the physical training to gain the PS benefit. Would make an interesting industry for supers, making exercise and training equipment for the supers in need. Unfortunately things aren't set up for someone to undergo continued growth in their stats after creation from regular intensive exercise and use like some other systems (like Marvel Super Heroes RPG ).
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
- JuliusCreed
- Hero
- Posts: 1128
- Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:56 pm
- Comment: Yesterday is history,
Tomorrow is a mystery,
But today is a gift.
That's why it is called "the present". - Location: Texas... what country are you from?
Re: Super natural strength questions.
TechnoGothic wrote:Character PS Stays the Same. Add 30+2d6 (supernatural ps) to his already established strength level. From that point on, if he selects Physical Skills he no longer gains bonuses by the rules due to his training.
OK, My opinion time...
IGNORE the part that say gains no PS bonuses from Physical skills. The Super in question can still Train to lift more weights. But those weights are of course he greater and greater...ect...Have them Role-play out the training, it can be fun, trust me. Remember in the Incredibles when Mr.Incredible was training in the train yard to get back into shape ?
Some of the Rules in HU2 are just dumb, yeah. Use Common Sense as a GM if you should or should apply bonuses due to training
Just my 2 coppers here, but personally this seems a bit over the top. Most HU chars I've seen start with a PS in the low 20's to mid 30's range... and these are the wimps.
Adding another 32-42 points to that and making it supernatural to boot can seriously offset game balance in a big way. I'd say just keep his PS at its current level, maybe add the 2d6 for a bit of a boost if desired and have the no physical skill bonuses to PS apply from that point on. The character still gets a serious boost to PS just from the score getting turned supernatural and it helps to maintain balance in the game.
Of course if the character is already relatively an uber wimp (ie someone with a PS in the low to mid teens) then I can see going with what TechGoth reccommends here. The most important aspect here IMHO is to maintain game balance.
Sure, lions and tigers are stronger...
But I've never seen a wolf jump through hoops in a circus
But I've never seen a wolf jump through hoops in a circus
- drewkitty ~..~
- Monk
- Posts: 17782
- Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Eastvale, calif
- Contact:
Re: Super natural strength questions.
Nightmask wrote:Contrary to drewkitty's view book legal would be adding the supernatural strength roll onto the existing strength stat as the character acquired the supernatural strength long after the character was initially created. It wouldn't make logical sense that somehow gaining that power would augment the character's strength yet some how those few points from the skills it could tell were training and now they magically disappear. That's how the power found the character, he didn't attempt to train in those skills after he had the power.
Gee thank you for your opinion NM.
That's how you explain your opinion.
Now a view to explain the book legal way. The supernatualness of the SNPS power-overwrites whatever small amounts of additional str. acquired from skills.
Note: I anything I said, in my previous post, about my opinions were indicated (in some way) that they were my opinions. And what I said about what was book legal was following what was said on the power SNPS text.
AlanGunhouse wrote:If a character already has built up their muscles before gaining SNS, or if they only have it on a part-time basis (like being a Lycanthrope or having Animal Abilities: Cetacean), then I would allow them to keep the bonuses...but I tend to dislike powers that grow (personal taste question).
Note: the str. bonuses gained from powers are added to the SNPS score. It says so in the SNPS power text. Just like is says that the phys. skills bonuses to str. are are not applied to the score.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
- AlanGunhouse
- Champion
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:55 am
- Location: Fostoria, Ohio
Re: Super natural strength questions.
Try the ask the authors thread, if you want an official opinion.
- AlanGunhouse
- Champion
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:55 am
- Location: Fostoria, Ohio
Re: Super natural strength questions.
Umm? +16 from skills to strength, I have a hard time getting more than +10
- Incriptus
- Hero
- Posts: 1262
- Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 2:01 am
- Comment: Hey, relaaaax. Pretend it's a game. Maybe it'll even be fun
Shoot the tubes, Dogmeat! - Location: Washington State
Re: Super natural strength questions.
Max™ wrote:How would SN ps of 90 upset game balance more than SN ps 80?
With all the physical skills you hit like +12 to +16 more than you start with, but if you try you can hit SN ps 200+ without doing ANYTHING outside of canon.
If we don't care about the difference between 90 & 80, why care about the difference between 64 & 49?
Max™ wrote:How does a guy who was strong and gained SN PS after building his body make things broken, how is it not broken that Mr. normal PS 9 and Mr. Joe Bodybuilder with normal PS 24 (started at PS 9, added 16 from skills) both get SN ps, and both wind up with SN PS 49 after adding +40 from the power (30+10 on the 2d6)?
Everything that Mr. Bodybuilder did to make himself stronger goes away, and now he's just as strong as Mr. 98 pound former weakling?
Person with 9 strength lifts 180 pounds
Person with 24 strength lifts 960 pounds
both are granted supernatural strength.
Person with 9 strength now has 49 supernatural strength and lifts 24500
Person with 24 strenght now has 64 supernatural strength and lifts 32000
so that original difference of 780 pounds is now 7500.
- AlanGunhouse
- Champion
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:55 am
- Location: Fostoria, Ohio
Re: Super natural strength questions.
or, looked at another way, he has gone from five times as strong to only 50% stronger.
Re: Super natural strength questions.
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Gee thank you for your opinion NM.
That's how you explain your opinion.
Now a view to explain the book legal way. The supernatualness of the SNPS power-overwrites whatever small amounts of additional str. acquired from skills.
Note: I anything I said, in my previous post, about my opinions were indicated (in some way) that they were my opinions. And what I said about what was book legal was following what was said on the power SNPS text.
Except you leave out that book legal applies during character creation with regards to the Supernatural PS power, whereby you can't use skills that give extra PS to increase your PS. This is not a case of that. This is a case of someone with an already established PS stat gaining Supernatural PS long after, and that rule no longer applies because their current PS IS their base PS, they aren't attempting to increase an already existing Supernatural PS with skills. That is as a result their base PS, it's how the power found the character.
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:AlanGunhouse wrote:If a character already has built up their muscles before gaining SNS, or if they only have it on a part-time basis (like being a Lycanthrope or having Animal Abilities: Cetacean), then I would allow them to keep the bonuses...but I tend to dislike powers that grow (personal taste question).
Note: the str. bonuses gained from powers are added to the SNPS score. It says so in the SNPS power text. Just like is says that the phys. skills bonuses to str. are are not applied to the score.
Too bad the skill bonuses to PS in this case aren't being applied to the Supernatural PS, the Supernatural PS is being applied to the character after he's already been built up. Given how you're all about book legal note that the text in question says one doesn't add PS bonuses from skills to Supernatural PS i.e. AFTER gaining the Supernatural PS. The text makes no mention at all about preexisting PS bonuses from skills when adding the Supernatural PS power to someone later on, because pre-existing bonuses aren't bonuses anymore they're the base PS of the character when the new power came along.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
- AlanGunhouse
- Champion
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:55 am
- Location: Fostoria, Ohio
- AlanGunhouse
- Champion
- Posts: 1958
- Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:55 am
- Location: Fostoria, Ohio
Re: Super natural strength questions.
It I could afford it and find it, I would add it...but so far I can not afford it and so I have not seriously looked
- drewkitty ~..~
- Monk
- Posts: 17782
- Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Eastvale, calif
- Contact:
Re: Super natural strength questions.
As for the way I'd handle it as a gm. I'd forgo using the "strict 'book legal' way" and use the lazy just stack it on top way.
No, I didn't "change my mind." *looks @ Nm* I just didn't say which way I would use if I was GM, while answering the question as canonly as possible. Since there is no provision in the text for just stacking it on top of the old score. No one, but KS all PB mighty, can't actually say that the "just stacking them" way is canon, w/o supporting text.
Anyway arguing with you peeps about what is book legal (aka Canon) and what is house rules *looks @ no-one in particular* is not a fun discussion, when one of the posters literally thinks their house rules are the canon rules.
No, I didn't "change my mind." *looks @ Nm* I just didn't say which way I would use if I was GM, while answering the question as canonly as possible. Since there is no provision in the text for just stacking it on top of the old score. No one, but KS all PB mighty, can't actually say that the "just stacking them" way is canon, w/o supporting text.
Anyway arguing with you peeps about what is book legal (aka Canon) and what is house rules *looks @ no-one in particular* is not a fun discussion, when one of the posters literally thinks their house rules are the canon rules.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
Re: Super natural strength questions.
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:As for the way I'd handle it as a gm. I'd forgo using the "strict 'book legal' way" and use the lazy just stack it on top way.
No, I didn't "change my mind." *looks @ Nm* I just didn't say which way I would use if I was GM, while answering the question as canonly as possible. Since there is no provision in the text for just stacking it on top of the old score. No one, but KS all PB mighty, can't actually say that the "just stacking them" way is canon, w/o supporting text.
Anyway arguing with you peeps about what is book legal (aka Canon) and what is house rules *looks @ no-one in particular* is not a fun discussion, when one of the posters literally thinks their house rules are the canon rules.
Yes you really do need to work on that problem, but maybe you'll solve it someday.
Meanwhile you're quite wrong about the canon not adding the Supernatural PS to the existing score, as it obviously does since the Supernatural PS came along long after the body was built up and therefor is augmenting what you already have. It would be an illogical rules lawyer to insist that the existing PS is really the PS minus the skill bonuses added in. You may not gain the Skill bonuses to PS when learning a physical skill after having gained Supernatural PS but the stats certainly count when you learned them long before your strength became supernatural.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
- drewkitty ~..~
- Monk
- Posts: 17782
- Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Eastvale, calif
- Contact:
Re: Super natural strength questions.
yes yes and now we both have stated our positions on this subject. So I will end with just these few comments.
I might be rules lawyering here, but that is the perspective the questions here need to be answered, to start off with. Opinions, ponderings, and ideas are welcome, but they need to be not presented as canon.
As for the illogic, if the text are illogical then the canon is illogical.
So from now on you can just accept that we might not see things the same.
zzz
I might be rules lawyering here, but that is the perspective the questions here need to be answered, to start off with. Opinions, ponderings, and ideas are welcome, but they need to be not presented as canon.
As for the illogic, if the text are illogical then the canon is illogical.
So from now on you can just accept that we might not see things the same.
zzz
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
- TechnoGothic
- Knight
- Posts: 5179
- Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Near Tampa Florida
Re: Super natural strength questions.
The 100% Book Legal is ...
Current PS Score (at whatever lvl) Add 30 +2d6 "Supernatural" PS to your former PS Attribute.
Example. PS 30 (after phsyical skills from skills gained from lvl 1-5), then say at lvl 6 you gain the Supernatural PS. PS 30 +30+2d6 (+32 to +42), so your Offical PS would become PS 62 to PS 72 Supernatural. Not a big deal in HU2. However any Physical skills you gain from lvl 6-15 will not give you PS bonuses Offically anymore. That is how it Offically works by the book. You never go back to lvl 1 stats pre-skills and then add Supernatural PS bonuses, that is unfair to anyone and defeats the purpose of the power and that of the game itself.
Current PS Score (at whatever lvl) Add 30 +2d6 "Supernatural" PS to your former PS Attribute.
Example. PS 30 (after phsyical skills from skills gained from lvl 1-5), then say at lvl 6 you gain the Supernatural PS. PS 30 +30+2d6 (+32 to +42), so your Offical PS would become PS 62 to PS 72 Supernatural. Not a big deal in HU2. However any Physical skills you gain from lvl 6-15 will not give you PS bonuses Offically anymore. That is how it Offically works by the book. You never go back to lvl 1 stats pre-skills and then add Supernatural PS bonuses, that is unfair to anyone and defeats the purpose of the power and that of the game itself.
TechnoGothic
END OF LINE

"The best things in life are to crush your enemies, drive them before you, and hear the lamentations of their women."-Conan
END OF LINE

"The best things in life are to crush your enemies, drive them before you, and hear the lamentations of their women."-Conan
- TechnoGothic
- Knight
- Posts: 5179
- Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Near Tampa Florida
Re: Super natural strength questions.
The 100% Book Legal is ...
Current PS Score (at whatever lvl) Add 30 +2d6 "Supernatural" PS to your former PS Attribute.
Example. PS 30 (after phsyical skills from skills gained from lvl 1-5), then say at lvl 6 you gain the Supernatural PS. PS 30 +30+2d6 (+32 to +42), so your Offical PS would become PS 62 to PS 72 Supernatural. Not a big deal in HU2. However any Physical skills you gain from lvl 6-15 will not give you PS bonuses Offically anymore. That is how it Offically works by the book. You never go back to lvl 1 stats pre-skills and then add Supernatural PS bonuses, that is unfair to anyone and defeats the purpose of the power and that of the game itself.
Current PS Score (at whatever lvl) Add 30 +2d6 "Supernatural" PS to your former PS Attribute.
Example. PS 30 (after phsyical skills from skills gained from lvl 1-5), then say at lvl 6 you gain the Supernatural PS. PS 30 +30+2d6 (+32 to +42), so your Offical PS would become PS 62 to PS 72 Supernatural. Not a big deal in HU2. However any Physical skills you gain from lvl 6-15 will not give you PS bonuses Offically anymore. That is how it Offically works by the book. You never go back to lvl 1 stats pre-skills and then add Supernatural PS bonuses, that is unfair to anyone and defeats the purpose of the power and that of the game itself.
TechnoGothic
END OF LINE

"The best things in life are to crush your enemies, drive them before you, and hear the lamentations of their women."-Conan
END OF LINE

"The best things in life are to crush your enemies, drive them before you, and hear the lamentations of their women."-Conan
- PapaMambo
- Dungeon Crawler
- Posts: 216
- Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:28 pm
- Location: Winter-peg.. or Winnipeg for those not in the know..
Re: Super natural strength questions.
Max™ wrote:How would SN ps of 90 upset game balance more than SN ps 80?
With all the physical skills you hit like +12 to +16 more than you start with, but if you try you can hit SN ps 200+ without doing ANYTHING outside of canon.
How does a guy who was strong and gained SN PS after building his body make things broken, how is it not broken that Mr. normal PS 9 and Mr. Joe Bodybuilder with normal PS 24 (started at PS 9, added 16 from skills) both get SN ps, and both wind up with SN PS 49 after adding +40 from the power (30+10 on the 2d6)?
Everything that Mr. Bodybuilder did to make himself stronger goes away, and now he's just as strong as Mr. 98 pound former weakling?
Ok, I was just perusing this thread and I noticed this post... I just have to ask - HOW could you get a SN PS of 200+???
Even if I do EVERYTHING I can while making an NPC - fudging rolls, allowing skill bonuses to be added etc, the best I can seem to pull off is just over 100.. I've tried tonnes of different combinations, and still can't get there. My current campaign actually has a strong-man "hulk" type of character, and I couldn't get over 112 or so if I tried.. What am I doing wrong?? - not that I want to derail the thread..
"It isn't the bullet with his name on it that the professional soldier has to fear. It's all those addressed 'To Whom it May Concern'" - Anonymous
Re: Super natural strength questions.
The most I've been able to build, and that's without rolling the dice, just taking the maximum, is 137. Mega-hero PS, SN PS, alien enhancements, etc. How does a person get 200+ PS?
Also, we allow physical skills to add to SN PS. After all, if someone is bench-pressing dumptrucks loaded to his maximum capacity, why not? It's most likely a ruling against min-maxing, but it doesn't make that much sense, really.
Also, we allow physical skills to add to SN PS. After all, if someone is bench-pressing dumptrucks loaded to his maximum capacity, why not? It's most likely a ruling against min-maxing, but it doesn't make that much sense, really.
-
- Adventurer
- Posts: 778
- Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:54 am
Re: Super natural strength questions.
The most I've been able to build, and that's without rolling the dice, just taking the maximum, is 137. Mega-hero PS, SN PS, alien enhancements, etc. How does a person get 200+ PS?
How about firing up the Growth power? Adding a 100' of height nets you a quick +100 to PS along with a quick +2000 to SDC...
- TechnoGothic
- Knight
- Posts: 5179
- Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Near Tampa Florida
Re: Super natural strength questions.
Start with PS 30.
All Physical Skills that add +PS = +10 ps
some Physical Mutants & Side-effects = +10 easy.
Extra-ordinary PS = +2d6 ps (+12)
Super-human PS = +20+2d4 (+28)
Supernatural PS = +30 + 2d6 (+42)
Invulnerability +8
***so far thats 130 PS***
There are more powers which grant ps, mutant features (barrow nightbane features even for mutants).
Using HU2 or NB i have made characters around 200+ easily.
NB its very easy to get high PS ratings. Use Rifter #28's charts to build a morphus form...
All Physical Skills that add +PS = +10 ps
some Physical Mutants & Side-effects = +10 easy.
Extra-ordinary PS = +2d6 ps (+12)
Super-human PS = +20+2d4 (+28)
Supernatural PS = +30 + 2d6 (+42)
Invulnerability +8
***so far thats 130 PS***
There are more powers which grant ps, mutant features (barrow nightbane features even for mutants).
Using HU2 or NB i have made characters around 200+ easily.
NB its very easy to get high PS ratings. Use Rifter #28's charts to build a morphus form...
TechnoGothic
END OF LINE

"The best things in life are to crush your enemies, drive them before you, and hear the lamentations of their women."-Conan
END OF LINE

"The best things in life are to crush your enemies, drive them before you, and hear the lamentations of their women."-Conan
Re: Super natural strength questions.
TechnoGothic wrote:Start with PS 30.
All Physical Skills that add +PS = +10 ps
some Physical Mutants & Side-effects = +10 easy.
Extra-ordinary PS = +2d6 ps (+12)
Super-human PS = +20+2d4 (+28)
Supernatural PS = +30 + 2d6 (+42)
Invulnerability +8
***so far thats 130 PS***
There are more powers which grant ps, mutant features (barrow nightbane features even for mutants).
Using HU2 or NB i have made characters around 200+ easily.
NB its very easy to get high PS ratings. Use Rifter #28's charts to build a morphus form...
Sorry but that doesn't work, you can't select multiple versions of the PS powers to stack them let alone all three. so you'll need to drop off the 40 from Extraordinary and Superhuman PS leaving you at 90 and not 130.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
-
- Adventurer
- Posts: 778
- Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:54 am
Re: Super natural strength questions.
Nightmask wrote:Sorry but that doesn't work, you can't select multiple versions of the PS powers to stack them let alone all three. so you'll need to drop off the 40 from Extraordinary and Superhuman PS leaving you at 90 and not 130.
Not to mention using physical skills to add to supernatural PS.
That said, let me flesh out the Growth alternative a bit: start with PS 18+6+6=30 from initial die rolls, +42=72 from the Supernatural Strength major power, +20=92 from the Tremendous Physical Strength Mega-Power, +10=102 from the Increased Mass or Physically Transform side effect of an Experiment, +8=110 by hailing from a High Gravity environment, +12=122 for being a Humanoid Elephant (or similar beast, hippo, etc.) alien.
Likewise figure a starting PE of 30, +5=35 for Acrobatics and Gymnastics and Running and Wrestling, +11=46 from the Extraordinary Physical Endurance minor power, +6=52 from the Growth major power, +4=56 from that Humanoid Elephant bit -- and that means increasing height by well over 100', which increases Supernatural PS well past 200...
- TechnoGothic
- Knight
- Posts: 5179
- Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Near Tampa Florida
Re: Super natural strength questions.
Nightmask wrote:TechnoGothic wrote:Start with PS 30.
All Physical Skills that add +PS = +10 ps
some Physical Mutants & Side-effects = +10 easy.
Extra-ordinary PS = +2d6 ps (+12)
Super-human PS = +20+2d4 (+28)
Supernatural PS = +30 + 2d6 (+42)
Invulnerability +8
***so far thats 130 PS***
There are more powers which grant ps, mutant features (barrow nightbane features even for mutants).
Using HU2 or NB i have made characters around 200+ easily.
NB its very easy to get high PS ratings. Use Rifter #28's charts to build a morphus form...
Sorry but that doesn't work, you can't select multiple versions of the PS powers to stack them let alone all three. so you'll need to drop off the 40 from Extraordinary and Superhuman PS leaving you at 90 and not 130.
Let me Break down for you again..
Grows in Power and Age ...
LEVEL ONE :
All Physical Skills that add +PS = +10 ps
some Physical Mutants & Side-effects = +10 easy.
Extra-ordinary PS = +2d6 ps (+12)
LEVEL THREE = Super-human PS = +20+2d4 (+28)
LEVEL SIX = Supernatural PS = +30 + 2d6 (+42)
LEVEL 10 = Invulnerability +8 ***so far thats 130 PS***
LEVEL 15 = any other power that gives a PS bonus...
TechnoGothic
END OF LINE

"The best things in life are to crush your enemies, drive them before you, and hear the lamentations of their women."-Conan
END OF LINE

"The best things in life are to crush your enemies, drive them before you, and hear the lamentations of their women."-Conan
Re: Super natural strength questions.
TechnoGothic wrote:Nightmask wrote:TechnoGothic wrote:Start with PS 30.
All Physical Skills that add +PS = +10 ps
some Physical Mutants & Side-effects = +10 easy.
Extra-ordinary PS = +2d6 ps (+12)
Super-human PS = +20+2d4 (+28)
Supernatural PS = +30 + 2d6 (+42)
Invulnerability +8
***so far thats 130 PS***
There are more powers which grant ps, mutant features (barrow nightbane features even for mutants).
Using HU2 or NB i have made characters around 200+ easily.
NB its very easy to get high PS ratings. Use Rifter #28's charts to build a morphus form...
Sorry but that doesn't work, you can't select multiple versions of the PS powers to stack them let alone all three. so you'll need to drop off the 40 from Extraordinary and Superhuman PS leaving you at 90 and not 130.
Let me Break down for you again..
Grows in Power and Age ...
LEVEL ONE :
All Physical Skills that add +PS = +10 ps
some Physical Mutants & Side-effects = +10 easy.
Extra-ordinary PS = +2d6 ps (+12)
LEVEL THREE = Super-human PS = +20+2d4 (+28)
LEVEL SIX = Supernatural PS = +30 + 2d6 (+42)
LEVEL 10 = Invulnerability +8 ***so far thats 130 PS***
LEVEL 15 = any other power that gives a PS bonus...
Repeating it still doesn't change the fact you can't have all three enhanced strength powers, if you've got one you don't get the others, so you can't stack bonuses. If a character did manage this particular progression the +12 from Extraordinary PS would be replaced by the +28 from Superhuman PS not added to it, and then after acquiring Supernatural PS it's +42 bonus would replace the bonus from Superhuman PS, so you only have +42 and not the +72 you've got going here.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
Re: Super natural strength questions.
Max™ wrote:Eugenics can get ridiculously high, like 190+.
I recall making something like a Rhino Alien from a High G world who was a Megahero Experiment with Increased Mass and the Tremendous PS Mega, SN PS, APS: Metal, and Zombie Flesh for +144 PS before adding base stats or worrying about whether skills contribute. Potentially 174 with base PS and 186 if skills contribute.
Punishing people for wasting a superpower and possibly random rolling an upgraded superpower later is a bit silly btw.
You randomly roll Ext PS during creation and gain a power later on for whatever reason, then randomly roll and get SH or SN PS, you're not replacing the Ext PS power slot with SH or SN PS, you're gaining a new power, which is being argued just completely erases your old one.
You have SN PS and you wanna spend two minor powers (Ext PS/SH PS) for nothing but 18 possible strength (20+2d4 SH, 2d6+1d6 Ext) over what you could get with a major power that also gives AR 17 and 800 SDC... go for it. It's more interesting than every strong character having exactly the same strength.
Nothing punishing about it, and certainly they aren't 'wasting' a power. They've got an existing power that got better, they don't have an unrelated power and get another unrelated power. No different than going from the minor power of Extraordinary Speed to the major of Sonic Speed. They don't stack, you took your minor rank of speed and pushed it to the next level acquiring the bonuses and limitations of the more impressive power in place of the inferior (generally) bonuses of the previous power.
What's being said isn't 'oh you're just erasing the old power and getting nothing from it', just look at the progression for the strength powers. Each one is superior to the previous one, it simply makes things better than before. How much you can lift, how much damage you can do, how impressive your muscle strength is in general, etc. all stepping up to the next level. What you got from the previous power is already subsumed in the newer one, which is why the canon material itself makes sure to note you can't stack strength powers, you only get the best one. So unless you're running under house rules you can't argue that you're adding an unrelated power (you clearly aren't) so you can keep stacking bonuses, because the rules make it quite clear that you can't stack the powers.
So unless you're prefacing things with a 'this was done using house rules' you should expect to hear 'you can't do that given the rules of the game' because you can't.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
Re: Super natural strength questions.
Max™ wrote:Nightmask wrote:Max™ wrote:Eugenics can get ridiculously high, like 190+.
I recall making something like a Rhino Alien from a High G world who was a Megahero Experiment with Increased Mass and the Tremendous PS Mega, SN PS, APS: Metal, and Zombie Flesh for +144 PS before adding base stats or worrying about whether skills contribute. Potentially 174 with base PS and 186 if skills contribute.
Punishing people for wasting a superpower and possibly random rolling an upgraded superpower later is a bit silly btw.
You randomly roll Ext PS during creation and gain a power later on for whatever reason, then randomly roll and get SH or SN PS, you're not replacing the Ext PS power slot with SH or SN PS, you're gaining a new power, which is being argued just completely erases your old one.
You have SN PS and you wanna spend two minor powers (Ext PS/SH PS) for nothing but 18 possible strength (20+2d4 SH, 2d6+1d6 Ext) over what you could get with a major power that also gives AR 17 and 800 SDC... go for it. It's more interesting than every strong character having exactly the same strength.
Nothing punishing about it, and certainly they aren't 'wasting' a power. They've got an existing power that got better, they don't have an unrelated power and get another unrelated power. No different than going from the minor power of Extraordinary Speed to the major of Sonic Speed. They don't stack, you took your minor rank of speed and pushed it to the next level acquiring the bonuses and limitations of the more impressive power in place of the inferior (generally) bonuses of the previous power.
What's being said isn't 'oh you're just erasing the old power and getting nothing from it', just look at the progression for the strength powers. Each one is superior to the previous one, it simply makes things better than before. How much you can lift, how much damage you can do, how impressive your muscle strength is in general, etc. all stepping up to the next level. What you got from the previous power is already subsumed in the newer one, which is why the canon material itself makes sure to note you can't stack strength powers, you only get the best one. So unless you're running under house rules you can't argue that you're adding an unrelated power (you clearly aren't) so you can keep stacking bonuses, because the rules make it quite clear that you can't stack the powers.
So unless you're prefacing things with a 'this was done using house rules' you should expect to hear 'you can't do that given the rules of the game' because you can't.
I've got a guy with say, Continuous Mutation, he starts out with his one Major, let's say a nice well rounded ability like Sonic Speed, he's only got the one major but he's not doing bad.
Then he gets a minor at 2nd lvl, he rolls Ext PS, he's stronger now, still fast, not bad at all.
Level 4 rolls around, he rolls for a Major and gets Supernatural PS, he's still got a minor power taken up by Ext PS, but now he gets absolutely nothing from it?
While if he had rolled Radar, or Healing Factor for his second power he would have this at level 4: Sonic Speed, Healing Factor, SN PS... instead he gets Sonic Speed, SN PS, and nothing else.
Not even a "sorry about the wasted minor power", no option to reroll the now useless minor slot, he doesn't get any stronger than anyone else who just has SN PS, though he's now got two powers dedicated to his PS?
How is that less reasonable than simply adding the SN PS bonus and converting his lift/carry/damage to the new values?
Most powers mention that "all bonuses are cumulative", you get a Major which gives say +4d6 Spd, and a minor which gives +2d6 Spd, you wind up with +6d6 Spd.
You get any minor or major which adds to your PS and SN PS, you add both powers, unless those minors are Ext or SH PS?
You keep ignoring that 'strength powers don't stack' is explicitly noted in the books, so while many powers exist that have bonuses that stack the Strength powers are given as an obvious exception. That's because we aren't talking powers that have some overlap, it's the same power with different levels of bonuses with the next level consuming the previous level.
As far as your example goes, you don't have any reason to complain about that 'lost' power, you didn't lose it it got better. It graduated from a minor to major power. A character with APS: Fire has the risk if he super-novas of losing the power completely (if he survives) and getting absolutely nothing in return other than I think an insanity. That's the risk he takes with that power. The character with continuous mutation takes the risk that he could gain a major power that replaces a minor power of the same type (Energy Expulsion: Electricity replaced by Super-Energy Expulsion: Electricity) with nothing in exchange for that minor slot. Because that's the risk he runs with that feature. If you're banking on stacking up Strength powers when the book explicitly says that they don't you really have no room to complain when told 'sorry but those don't stack you knew that going in'.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
- TechnoGothic
- Knight
- Posts: 5179
- Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Near Tampa Florida
Re: Super natural strength questions.
Nightmask wrote:Repeating it still doesn't change the fact you can't have all three enhanced strength powers, if you've got one you don't get the others, so you can't stack bonuses. If a character did manage this particular progression the +12 from Extraordinary PS would be replaced by the +28 from Superhuman PS not added to it, and then after acquiring Supernatural PS it's +42 bonus would replace the bonus from Superhuman PS, so you only have +42 and not the +72 you've got going here.
They Stack if done like this. You dont lose your old power if its upgraded by a higher version of the power.
You can have various version of the PS types. However, the newest/hightest Carry/Lift version is the one you use for carry/Lift. The PS bonuses remain from the others, because you still have them.
TechnoGothic
END OF LINE

"The best things in life are to crush your enemies, drive them before you, and hear the lamentations of their women."-Conan
END OF LINE

"The best things in life are to crush your enemies, drive them before you, and hear the lamentations of their women."-Conan
Re: Super natural strength questions.
TechnoGothic wrote:Nightmask wrote:Repeating it still doesn't change the fact you can't have all three enhanced strength powers, if you've got one you don't get the others, so you can't stack bonuses. If a character did manage this particular progression the +12 from Extraordinary PS would be replaced by the +28 from Superhuman PS not added to it, and then after acquiring Supernatural PS it's +42 bonus would replace the bonus from Superhuman PS, so you only have +42 and not the +72 you've got going here.
They Stack if done like this. You dont lose your old power if its upgraded by a higher version of the power.
You can have various version of the PS types. However, the newest/hightest Carry/Lift version is the one you use for carry/Lift. The PS bonuses remain from the others, because you still have them.
And that's simply not what the book says. You can't have multiple PS powers, you have the best one. You can't stack PS powers, the book also addresses that. You're also not going to have the bonuses from a previous power if it's upgraded to another power, the better power supercedes/replaces the older one that's what an upgrade is. If you went from a healing factor that healed 2 SDC an hour to one that healed 4 SDC an hour you don't get to add them to get 6 SDC an hour, you get 4 SDC an hour because that's what you upgraded to. By the same token you aren't going to get the enhancements to your muscles that Extraordinary PS provides when you get Superhuman PS, it takes the prior power and replaces it complete as it includes its improvements with its own improvements.
You can insist on that progression all you want, but it's not supported by the rules or common sense for that matter. In your own game that's fine but it's not a character that can be built going by the rules. The rules say you can't stack Strength powers, so even if you have continuous mutation you're still not going to stack, you're going to upgrade/replace.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
Re: Super natural strength questions.
Max™ wrote:Now, you can argue rules, but this has nothing to do with common sense, closing off an entire range of specialized supers is an arbitrary rule, there's nothing to do with common sense there.
There isn't a range of specialized supers being discussed let alone being closed off by a rule arbitrary or otherwise. Common sense says if you've got say Superhuman Strength, being even greater than Extraordinary Strength, already includes Extraordinary Strength at its root so you can't have both separate powers because Superhuman Strength already includes it as a subset and what you see for its bonuses are what you get when you add in the bonuses from Extraordinary Strength to those of Superhuman Strength giving you the net results shown for the power. By the same token Supernatural PS already has the others included in it for a net result being the bonuses shown under Supernatural PS. Since by the rules you can't have the same power twice (or more) you can't go doing the progression shown earlier because it requires violating the rule for stacking powers AND the rule that says you can only gain the benefits of ONE Strength power.
If you want an absurdly high PS doing it by the rules as presented by Palladium you aren't going to do it by stacking Strength powers because again they don't stack, and crying about how you 'lost' your benefits for one because you got the next power is just a whole lot of trying to get something you really aren't entitled to, the use of the power twice (three times for Extraordinary PS). The bonuses from Superhuman Strength include those from Extraordinary Strength, so you aren't losing anything, the power is just giving you the final total of bonuses, same goes with Supernatural PS. If you want to house rule the powers stack so you can double and triple up on powers go right ahead but again Palladium's already said you can't stack the Strength powers so insisting you can means you're trying to pass off a house rule as the official rule when it isn't. You can insist all you want how that's 'wrong' and ignore all evidence to the contrary but in the end that's the rules as per Palladium so if you're going to try and present characters with as high a PS as can be pulled off in the rules then you need to follow the actual rules, ALL of them, instead of pretending that they don't exist because they're inconvenient for you.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
Re: Super natural strength questions.
Max™ wrote:Except there is no way to combine Ext PS to represent SH PS.
100/200 lift carry vs 200/300, similarly there is no way to stack SH PS to represent SN PS at 300/500.
You could try to say that you're adding Ext and SH together, except for the damage change.
I GM, I can do what I want, I'm not saying doing it the way I do is more legal, I'm saying it's more sensible, and would be more fun than the rather bland "everyone with the same power is exactly the same barring the small variation from a couple of d6 rolls".
Sensible is subjective, what you're insisting is more sensible isn't from I'm seeing and surprising as it is to suggest this it's not bland and given how Palladium's set up yes by how you see things they're bland because the powers do provide very limited and concrete features with in most cases just some minor variation. Which isn't a problem at all because bland or memorable comes from how the player plays the character, the powers aren't a problem because they have set bonuses that anyone with that power will all fall into the same range.
Max™ wrote:Now, just to completely and utterly destroy your entire argument, allow me to point out that there are several powers and even a few things like mutant/experiment side effects which grant Ext or SH PS bonuses.
Sorry but you really fail to make this come to pass.
Max™ wrote:With any of those powers you get the Ext or PS lift/carry AND generally a few points of PS, yet you can select a higher strength power which then adds directly to the now modified PS value.
It's called an equivalent for a reason rather than 'you get this power as a bonus, don't select that power if you already have this power'.
Max™ wrote:If you get APS: Metal, included in the power is the SH PS power, exactly the same power, 20+2d4, 200/300 lifting, everything, right down to the fatigue rate.
According to your argument presented here, if you select APS: Metal you do not get the +22~28 PS if you also select SN PS as a major?
What if you select SH PS as a minor with APS: Metal, does that power do nothing?
What about someone who naturally has SN PS already? If an Immortal Dragon or Godling or Monster or Golem selects SH PS, does the power add 22~28 PS or do they get nothing?
Apples and oranges, you're drawing in other powers that aren't represented by the narrow discussion underway in hopes of muddying the waters. This was not a discussion regarding someone with powers that provide equivalents to existing enhanced Strength powers and whether or not they can have those strength powers as well (which btw has also been covered in I believe the GM's guide) but whether or not you can have two or more of the existing enhanced strength powers, which is no you can't. The rules say you can't.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
Re: Super natural strength questions.
Max™ wrote:Nightmask wrote:Max™ wrote:Except there is no way to combine Ext PS to represent SH PS.
100/200 lift carry vs 200/300, similarly there is no way to stack SH PS to represent SN PS at 300/500.
You could try to say that you're adding Ext and SH together, except for the damage change.
I GM, I can do what I want, I'm not saying doing it the way I do is more legal, I'm saying it's more sensible, and would be more fun than the rather bland "everyone with the same power is exactly the same barring the small variation from a couple of d6 rolls".
Sensible is subjective, what you're insisting is more sensible isn't from I'm seeing and surprising as it is to suggest this it's not bland and given how Palladium's set up yes by how you see things they're bland because the powers do provide very limited and concrete features with in most cases just some minor variation. Which isn't a problem at all because bland or memorable comes from how the player plays the character, the powers aren't a problem because they have set bonuses that anyone with that power will all fall into the same range.
Except that the only reason to NOT allow this sort of variability would be if it unbalanced things, and let's be frank, Palladium has nothing remotely resembling game balance.
As such it's just a very arbitrary sort of restriction, and worse it eliminates what could be an interesting set of characters, allowing specialization in a particular power such that you stand out even among other users of that power, at the cost of other options.
What reason is there right now to ever select Ext PS?
You want a strength power and only have a minor slot open, why would you go with it instead of SH PS?
It would be like if there was a power that gave the ability to run at 110 Mph +10 Mph per level, with a few bonuses to S/P/D/Ini/Atks, call it Not Quite Extraordinary Speed... why is it there?
Can you select it AND Extraordinary Speed? It has a point then, but outside of random rolls there is no point for abilities like that besides customization of powersets.
If all one cares about is power and things purely in terms of numbers then I suppose the lesser versions of powers aren't appealing compared to the major versions. But not everyone thinks that way for one. For another you don't always get to go with that major power, such as when a GM does a purely random roll for powers. Some if not many people are just fine with Extraordinary PS as well, they don't want or need Superhuman PS.
Given every point of PS also increases your damage it's hardly arbitrary that Palladium might want to limit something where if exploited can create characters that one-shot-kill whatever they come up against. Given Palladium at least tries for some kind of balance they generally aren't keen on arranging things so players can make characters with a 1000+ strength dealing that much and more in damage anytime they feel like it and far far worse when adding in other powers or tricks.
Max™ wrote:Nightmask wrote:Max™ wrote:If you get APS: Metal, included in the power is the SH PS power, exactly the same power, 20+2d4, 200/300 lifting, everything, right down to the fatigue rate.
According to your argument presented here, if you select APS: Metal you do not get the +22~28 PS if you also select SN PS as a major?
What if you select SH PS as a minor with APS: Metal, does that power do nothing?
What about someone who naturally has SN PS already? If an Immortal Dragon or Godling or Monster or Golem selects SH PS, does the power add 22~28 PS or do they get nothing?
Apples and oranges, you're drawing in other powers that aren't represented by the narrow discussion underway in hopes of muddying the waters. This was not a discussion regarding someone with powers that provide equivalents to existing enhanced Strength powers and whether or not they can have those strength powers as well (which btw has also been covered in I believe the GM's guide) but whether or not you can have two or more of the existing enhanced strength powers, which is no you can't. The rules say you can't.
No I'm not trying to muddy things, I'm making a solid point, the power of APS: Metal gives word for word the SH PS minor ability, selecting APS: Metal and Ext PS would still give you the +PS from the Ext minor, selecting APS: Metal and SH PS would still give you the +PS from the SH minor, selecting APS: Metal and SN PS would give you the +PS from the SN major as well as the enhanced lift/carry/damage.
This is a canon example where something isn't merely an "equivalent" as in the lift/carry or damage, but exactly the same as one of the minor powers in question.
I'm sure there are examples of the exact Ext PS power being included with a Major as well.
You also didn't answer my question regarding someone who gets SN PS from another source, does a Megahero or someone with the Monstrous Form SN PS option not get to select SH or Ext PS?
Again, you're tossing in things that go beyond the scope of the issue as to whether or not you can acquire two or more Strength powers simultaneously which the rules say no you cannot. Again the books also address the issues you're tossing out to cloud the original issue regarding characters with things like Supernatural PS and acquiring a power like APS: Metal at the same time. I don't remember the answer off the top of my head and not particularly inclined to go find the answer for you because if you're going to just house rule people can stack powers right and left you don't care what the actual rules are anyway.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
- PapaMambo
- Dungeon Crawler
- Posts: 216
- Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:28 pm
- Location: Winter-peg.. or Winnipeg for those not in the know..
Re: Super natural strength questions.
I know that there is a rule about strength powers not stacking, but I've always assumed that was during initial character creation. I see nothing in any of the books about the continuous mutation that was shown above. Starting with ExPS, SHPS, and SNPS. As long as none of those powers are taken at the same time, I see nothing that says explicitly that they couldn't stack over time. But I suppose that's all just a matter of perspective.
"It isn't the bullet with his name on it that the professional soldier has to fear. It's all those addressed 'To Whom it May Concern'" - Anonymous
Re: Super natural strength questions.
Max™ wrote:Nightmask wrote:If all one cares about is power and things purely in terms of numbers then I suppose the lesser versions of powers aren't appealing compared to the major versions. But not everyone thinks that way for one. For another you don't always get to go with that major power, such as when a GM does a purely random roll for powers. Some if not many people are just fine with Extraordinary PS as well, they don't want or need Superhuman PS.
Given every point of PS also increases your damage it's hardly arbitrary that Palladium might want to limit something where if exploited can create characters that one-shot-kill whatever they come up against. Given Palladium at least tries for some kind of balance they generally aren't keen on arranging things so players can make characters with a 1000+ strength dealing that much and more in damage anytime they feel like it and far far worse when adding in other powers or tricks.
Except there's nothing about these ideas that would let you get 1000 PS, you can already create numerous different completely legal characters who can one shot kill pretty much anything... heck, if you build things right with Super Power Punch you can dole out thousands of damage in a single attack (if you land), so that is a terrible argument.
At best you could break 200 but not 250, but it would allow more variation. As is you can completely legally make characters with PS well over 150, and with certain builds you can hit 190 or more.
And you know I tossed out the '1000' as an exaggeration centered on people trying to just pile on Strength bonuses to get absurdly high PS values not because 'oh no I don't want a bland character with just a 100 PS' but because they want a bland character with a high PS and nothing much of consequence beyond that.
Max™ wrote:Nightmask wrote:Again, you're tossing in things that go beyond the scope of the issue as to whether or not you can acquire two or more Strength powers simultaneously which the rules say no you cannot. Again the books also address the issues you're tossing out to cloud the original issue regarding characters with things like Supernatural PS and acquiring a power like APS: Metal at the same time. I don't remember the answer off the top of my head and not particularly inclined to go find the answer for you because if you're going to just house rule people can stack powers right and left you don't care what the actual rules are anyway.
...
Look, stop attributing motivations which have nothing to do with my actions, if you think I'm just trying to cloud an issue, ask if I am, I said I am not, you're wrong, stop saying it, ok?
You're not going to go look for the answer because you're just interested in ignoring my point, as you've shown repeatedly now.
Whether you intend it or not you're tossing out something that's not related to the issue at hand. When the issue is 'can you stack all these strength powers' and you go 'yeah but what about these non-strength powers over here that give strength bonuses' you're attempting to cloud the issue because the issue isn't 'can you stack these strength powers with powers that aren't strength powers but give strength bonuses'. So no I don't have motivation to go look up something that's not on the issue at hand and because I have trouble reading such small text anymore and the eye strain gives me a headache.
But just to give you the answer in spite of the headache it brings in a case like someone having Supernatural PS and APS: Metal, the bonuses from Supernatural PS replace the bonuses from APS: Metal and the strength becomes Supernatural you do not get both the bonuses from APS: Metal and Supernatural PS. In other cases like that you do not get to combine bonuses you only get the better of the two. You can find this in the Questions & Answers section of Heroes Ulimited GM's Guide page 9.
Max™ wrote:There is nothing preventing any character with a power that grants a higher strength class from selecting any other strength power, similarly there is nothing preventing a character who has exactly the same power as SH PS from selecting Ext, SH, or SN PS as another power.
The point isn't whether or not it IS legal, the point is that the reasons given for it not being allowed are nullified by the existence of things like APS: Metal, there is no harm done by APS: Metal + Ext PS, SH PS, or SN PS being used, there's nothing unbalanced (well more unbalanced than APS: Metal is by itself) caused by including this.
It isn't like a competent GM can't handle any such characters, so the only argument is that it is better to give players less choice, and less control when creating their characters.
That would only be true if your argument were valid, but it isn't. It's not giving the players less choice, it's giving them reasons to not be one-trick ponies instead of just choosing one power and stacking it up. As I note above your APS: Metal example has already been addressed by Palladium and you don't get to stack the bonuses, you only get the better of the two. So you can't get a minor PS power so you can tack it in with your APS: Metal and gain all the bonuses of both.
Max™ wrote:You tried to turn my argument into some "if all you care about is power" strawman, but the fact remains, having Ext and SH PS be minor powers is akin to having one speed power which lets you run 110 mph in addition to the Extraordinary Spd power that lets you run 220 mph.
"Ok, I've got an idea for a character, he's super strong... but not REALLY super strong, and he can run fast, not quite super fast, but sorta super fast."
No I didn't try to strawman your argument, and your argument's been addressed in the same GM's Guide on the same page I quoted earlier. No, as it says in the book everyone will not pick the most powerful all the time and having three different PS powers isn't wasteful. Not everyone wants a triple digit PS, and just because you feel 'oh no 75 PS isn't really strong you have to have at least a 100 to be strong' doesn't make that valid. Super-strong is super-strong and just because someone else might be stronger doesn't mean you're weak when you're still stronger than 99.999% of the population INCLUDINg the super-strong population. As far as your super-fast example goes, again not everyone would be interested in or want the 220MPH running speed and would be fine with the 110MPH running speed if it were available.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
- TechnoGothic
- Knight
- Posts: 5179
- Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Near Tampa Florida
Re: Super natural strength questions.
PapaMambo wrote:I know that there is a rule about strength powers not stacking, but I've always assumed that was during initial character creation. I see nothing in any of the books about the continuous mutation that was shown above. Starting with ExPS, SHPS, and SNPS. As long as none of those powers are taken at the same time, I see nothing that says explicitly that they couldn't stack over time. But I suppose that's all just a matter of perspective.
Yes the rules are for Starting Characters only.
Once game play starts and you get "upgrades" through continuous mutation, the old PS power bonuses is kept, and the new PS power bonuses are added to it and you adujust the carry/lift weight for the new PS power.
Extraordinary Increase PS to 20 +2d4 would be kept.
Superhuman +20+2d6 would be added to the old power, but the carry/lift limit is replaced.
Supernatural +30+2d6 again would be added to the total, you would keep any old PS bonuses from skills you already had before this power came into being. Carry/Lift becomes the Supernatural limits of course. and any new skills which grant PS bonuses are ignored from now on.
TechnoGothic
END OF LINE

"The best things in life are to crush your enemies, drive them before you, and hear the lamentations of their women."-Conan
END OF LINE

"The best things in life are to crush your enemies, drive them before you, and hear the lamentations of their women."-Conan
Re: Super natural strength questions.
TechnoGothic wrote:PapaMambo wrote:I know that there is a rule about strength powers not stacking, but I've always assumed that was during initial character creation. I see nothing in any of the books about the continuous mutation that was shown above. Starting with ExPS, SHPS, and SNPS. As long as none of those powers are taken at the same time, I see nothing that says explicitly that they couldn't stack over time. But I suppose that's all just a matter of perspective.
Yes the rules are for Starting Characters only.
Once game play starts and you get "upgrades" through continuous mutation, the old PS power bonuses is kept, and the new PS power bonuses are added to it and you adujust the carry/lift weight for the new PS power.
Extraordinary Increase PS to 20 +2d4 would be kept.
Superhuman +20+2d6 would be added to the old power, but the carry/lift limit is replaced.
Supernatural +30+2d6 again would be added to the total, you would keep any old PS bonuses from skills you already had before this power came into being. Carry/Lift becomes the Supernatural limits of course. and any new skills which grant PS bonuses are ignored from now on.
You present that as if that's what the books say, the books don't say that. The continuous mutations power doesn't say anything about being able to stack any powers like that, the only evidence regarding powers is that you replace a previous minor power with the superior bonuses of the major power NOT that you add them together.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin
It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
Re: Super natural strength questions.
As far as the original question goes, you add 2d6 to whatever ps is there and adjust damage and lifting up. Different strength powers don't stack together. if you have a exps and you get supps, it's +2d6 adjust upward.
same strength powers may stack if the gm allows since that is an unofficial presented in Century Station. so if you get supernatural strength three times at character creation that may be + 90 +6d6 ps
CES
same strength powers may stack if the gm allows since that is an unofficial presented in Century Station. so if you get supernatural strength three times at character creation that may be + 90 +6d6 ps
CES
- Zenvis
- Megaversal® Ambassador Coordinator
- Posts: 1134
- Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2001 2:01 am
- Location: Utah
- Contact:
Re: Super natural strength questions.
csyphrett wrote:As far as the original question goes, you add 2d6 to whatever ps is there and adjust damage and lifting up. Different strength powers don't stack together. if you have a exps and you get supps, it's +2d6 adjust upward.
same strength powers may stack if the gm allows since that is an unofficial presented in Century Station. so if you get supernatural strength three times at character creation that may be + 90 +6d6 ps
CES
Hey they did it with Runaway.
Everything you can imagine is real. - Pablo Picasso
Imagination is more important than knowledge." but knowledge does help. - Albert Einstein
The gift of fantasy has meant more to me than my talent for absorbing positive knowledge. - Albert Einstein
My Blog and My Other Blog
Imagination is more important than knowledge." but knowledge does help. - Albert Einstein
The gift of fantasy has meant more to me than my talent for absorbing positive knowledge. - Albert Einstein
My Blog and My Other Blog