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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:26 pm
  

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dreicunan wrote:
other colors do not cost an action to maintain, but not that they don't have to be maintained!

Automatically and effortlessly.

Kind of like breathing, which we can still do while sleeping (or even while unconscious).

dreicunan wrote:
The lack of an ongoing cost expressed in game terms doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be maintained, just that it is free to do so from an actions per melee perspective. I'd also point out that it is a weapon that must be "willed" into existence. To will it into being is a conscious act. It beggars belief to suggest that keeping it around is somehow NOT a conscious act of will!

Actually, it takes a conscious act of will to CANCEL it.

Something which requires a continuing application of willpower to keep around is not "automatic" or "effortless".

dreicunan wrote:
It's a blade of energy whose existence is maintained by the force of will of the creator.

The text says FOW creates it, not that FOW maintains it.

dreicunan wrote:
It isn't a power that creates an effect that sticks around without the creators will

Source?

dreicunan wrote:
it disappears when you go unconscious

That is a limitation of the Super Psionic Power. Where do you see this for the Cyber-Knight OCC ability?

As for the Super Psi: it only describes unconsciousness, not sleeping, so a Mind Melter could very well drift off asleep while having a Psi-Sword without having it disappear on him, because sleep is not unconsciousness. Unconsciousness is an inability to be roused by stimuli. Sleepers can be roused. Sleep is not unconsciousness.

dreicunan wrote:
It isn't an energy blade created with a physical hilt. The whole thing is energy. You aren't throwing the blade;

The cyber-knight OCC ability explicitly cannot be thrown as of SOT4/RUE, probably as a fix to how unbalanced that would make an ISPless weapon.

I don't know of any source preventing throwing the Super Psionic power or the Duelist CC power. Those variants which have ISP costs do not, as far as I am aware, prohibit throwing.

dreicunan wrote:
you can't hand it off to anyone else.

Source? Range is listed for ACTIVATING powers, psi-shields and psi-swords begin in your hands. Range does not limit how far away the effects of an activated power must stay to continue to exist for their durations.

dreicunan wrote:
I suppose that if you want to be mega-munchkinish about this, you could have your knight make the longest blade (or pike) known to the universe and wack people from a mile (or a 100 miles) away since I'm not seeing an actual limitation to the length or size of the psi-weapon anywhere, though that seems against the spirit of the power. Heck, start extending it right through the core of the planet or stab the moon!

That's a problem with Psi-Shield too, you might want to make a shield big enough to be scaled to a 200 ft giant or something. Both problems should be addressed in some form of errata.

I think the longest dimension of either should either be limited to the user's height, or perhaps 1ft per level of experience.

Or perhaps we could borrow the 6+2/level (if I recall) from the Energy Weapon Extensions super power in HU?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Esspecilly in the Rifts/3G settings. Where the rules are that !Nothing! can 'bypass/slip through' a force field of any type.

CCW Starhawk power armor can get through starship forcefields :)

Nice catch on HUGMG, long as we don't need to know the swords' weight, I guess longer ranges on higher PS work. I figure most Cyber-Knights have normal PS, but spells like Superhuman Strength could change that.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:55 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Especially in the Rifts/3G settings. Where the rules are that !Nothing! can 'bypass/slip through' a force field of any type.

CCW Starhawk power armor can get through starship forcefields :)

That is because the Silverhawk has a force field disrupter device. So again missing the target about what was being said.

The only psi weapon that has a throw option; and thus saying that the throw option has to be written in the canon text for it to be canon; is the psi-spear. In the spirit west book. However this psi-power is a class unique power. So unless a GM allows it, no other char class can take the power.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:40 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
other colors do not cost an action to maintain, but not that they don't have to be maintained!

Automatically and effortlessly.

Kind of like breathing, which we can still do while sleeping (or even while unconscious).
Breathing is autonomic; it is neither automatic nor effortless.

Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
The lack of an ongoing cost expressed in game terms doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be maintained, just that it is free to do so from an actions per melee perspective. I'd also point out that it is a weapon that must be "willed" into existence. To will it into being is a conscious act. It beggars belief to suggest that keeping it around is somehow NOT a conscious act of will!

Actually, it takes a conscious act of will to CANCEL it.

Something which requires a continuing application of willpower to keep around is not "automatic" or "effortless".
Sure it is, you are automatically and effortlessly using your will to keep the sword in existence while also doing other things. Also see below.

Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
It's a blade of energy whose existence is maintained by the force of will of the creator.

The text says FOW creates it, not that FOW maintains it.

dreicunan wrote:
It isn't a power that creates an effect that sticks around without the creators will

Source?
Page 64 of RUE "the Cyber-Knight's will and conviction is the driving power behind the blade." No will = no blade.

Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
it disappears when you go unconscious

That is a limitation of the Super Psionic Power. Where do you see this for the Cyber-Knight OCC ability?

As for the Super Psi: it only describes unconsciousness, not sleeping, so a Mind Melter could very well drift off asleep while having a Psi-Sword without having it disappear on him, because sleep is not unconsciousness. Unconsciousness is an inability to be roused by stimuli. Sleepers can be roused. Sleep is not unconsciousness.
Page 64 of RUE notes the differences of Psi-sword of the Cyber-Knight from that of the Mind Melter. It makes no mention of the weapon staying around if the Cyber-Knight goes unconscious (and as noted above, no will = no blade).

Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
It isn't an energy blade created with a physical hilt. The whole thing is energy. You aren't throwing the blade;

The cyber-knight OCC ability explicitly cannot be thrown as of SOT4/RUE, probably as a fix to how unbalanced that would make an ISPless weapon.

I don't know of any source preventing throwing the Super Psionic power or the Duelist CC power. Those variants which have ISP costs do not, as far as I am aware, prohibit throwing.

dreicunan wrote:
you can't hand it off to anyone else.

Source? Range is listed for ACTIVATING powers, psi-shields and psi-swords begin in your hands. Range does not limit how far away the effects of an activated power must stay to continue to exist for their durations.
Do you really need it explained why a weapon composed entirely of energy can't just be handed to anyone else? If they touch it, you are attacking them with it! There is no mention anywhere of the pure energy blades being able to be thrown. If you want to claim that they can be, find a passage supporting it, because nothing about the nature of the weapons themselves supports it. Another way to phrase it, a "thrown" psi-sword would not be a psi-sword but a psi-bolt! Mind bolt already exists for that. They aren't physical weapons; there is no hilt to actually grasp and release allowing you to impart momentum and thus throw it. They can't be thrown.

Also, see drewkitty's comment regarding the psi-spear.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:51 am
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
thus saying that the throw option has to be written in the canon text for it to be canon

Except it doesn't actually say that, you're merely assuming that.

dreicunan wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
other colors do not cost an action to maintain, but not that they don't have to be maintained!

Automatically and effortlessly.

Kind of like breathing, which we can still do while sleeping (or even while unconscious).
Breathing is autonomic; it is neither automatic nor effortless.

Fair point. So maintaining a non-white psi-sword is EASIER than breathing... so why would sleep (where we can still breathe) make it impossible to maintain?

dreicunan wrote:
Sure it is, you are automatically and effortlessly using your will to keep the sword in existence while also doing other things.
..
Page 64 of RUE "the Cyber-Knight's will and conviction is the driving power behind the blade." No will = no blade.

Why do you think someone lacks a sense of will when they sleep?

dreicunan wrote:
Page 64 of RUE notes the differences of Psi-sword of the Cyber-Knight from that of the Mind Melter.
It makes no mention of the weapon staying around if the Cyber-Knight goes unconscious

This gives examples of SOME of the ways in which it is different:
    First, the Cyber-Knight can create the weapon in an instant
    Second, there is no expenditure of I.S.P. in the conventional game sense
    Third, there is no limit on how the sword remains in effect nor any limit as to how many times a day the weapon can be created.
    If there is any downside, it is that the Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword is not quite as powerful as the Mind Melter's

This is not described as an exhaustive list, however. There are clearly other known aspects of this which are NOT mentioned, such as the ability to form weapons other than swords. RUE 181 still clearly limits the super psi to Sword shapes.

Lacking the Super Psi's "unconscious = gone" limitation is clearly another unwritten difference. There is no "the power operates like the super psi except where indicated" policy mentioned anywhere.

dreicunan wrote:
Do you really need it explained why a weapon composed entirely of energy can't just be handed to anyone else?
If they touch it, you are attacking them with it!

Any source on energy melee weapons always damaging everything that touches them rather than only things which are attacked?

dreicunan wrote:
There is no mention anywhere of the pure energy blades being able to be thrown. If you want to claim that they can be, find a passage supporting it, because nothing about the nature of the weapons themselves supports it.

Far as I know you can throw any object by default, so you would need something to support being unable to throw things.

This seems like a balancing aspect to the cyber-knight psi-sword (it's part of them, so something prevents them from throwing it) absent in other forms since they are less attached to it.

dreicunan wrote:
Another way to phrase it, a "thrown" psi-sword would not be a psi-sword but a psi-bolt!

In the same way that a thrown metal sword becomes a metal bolt, I suppose?

dreicunan wrote:
Mind bolt already exists for that.

Mind Bolt can be done instantly, it doesn't require 15 seconds of prep. It's probably also a bit less eye-catching, and doesn't require hands to use.

dreicunan wrote:
They aren't physical weapons; there is no hilt to actually grasp

I've seen hilts in a lot of psi-sword illustrations. Swords generally have them. I take it you have no source actually calling them hiltless?

We know that despite being able to parry attacks that PS damage isn't added (page 32 of Rifts GMG) but it does not:
    a Psi-Sword, Flamming Sword, or energy sword, only the weapon damage applies, any P.S. damage (supernatural or otherwise) is not added.

    However, a Vibro-sword uses a physical core and so damage bonuses can be applied to this weapon

The "physical core" aspect makes me think that could be a precedent for allowing P.S. damage to be applied when using the Amaki Duelist's psi-blade since that is definitely a physical core.

Another interesting observation: "throw" is not "drop" so a cyber-knight could plausibly drop a psi-sword onto someone.

Since damage from falling objects is weight-based, are psi-swords weightless?

Dropping a glowing white psi-sword down a dark shaft to see how deep it goes seems like an interesting use. But to actually drop I guess it would need to have mass to be affected by gravity, so there's a problem, because applying your own downward force would be a throw.

In that case though, you could simply let go of a massless energy weapon and it should stay in place wherever you let go as a beacon.

Having a physical core (Amaki device) could also solve the 'dropping' dilemma since then you would have mass pulling a dropped sword down. Rifts England's "Caliber X" wielded by King Arthuu is similar.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:10 pm
  

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Posts: 617
Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
other colors do not cost an action to maintain, but not that they don't have to be maintained!

Automatically and effortlessly.

Kind of like breathing, which we can still do while sleeping (or even while unconscious).
Breathing is autonomic; it is neither automatic nor effortless.

Fair point. So maintaining a non-white psi-sword is EASIER than breathing... so why would sleep (where we can still breathe) make it impossible to maintain?
An autonomic action is one that is not carried out consciously. Maintaining a Psi-sword is not an autonomic action. That is why sleep would make it impossible to maintain.

Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Page 64 of RUE notes the differences of Psi-sword of the Cyber-Knight from that of the Mind Melter.
It makes no mention of the weapon staying around if the Cyber-Knight goes unconscious

This gives examples of SOME of the ways in which it is different:
    First, the Cyber-Knight can create the weapon in an instant
    Second, there is no expenditure of I.S.P. in the conventional game sense
    Third, there is no limit on how the sword remains in effect nor any limit as to how many times a day the weapon can be created.
    If there is any downside, it is that the Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword is not quite as powerful as the Mind Melter's

This is not described as an exhaustive list, however. There are clearly other known aspects of this which are NOT mentioned, such as the ability to form weapons other than swords. RUE 181 still clearly limits the super psi to Sword shapes.

Lacking the Super Psi's "unconscious = gone" limitation is clearly another unwritten difference. There is no "the power operates like the super psi except where indicated" policy mentioned anywhere.
Fair point, but the other differences you cite as unmentioned there are still actually mentioned. A lack of "unconscious=gone" is not, so it is in no way "clearly" another difference (and most definitely isn't "another unwritten" one, as all of the differences of which we are aware are written).

Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Do you really need it explained why a weapon composed entirely of energy can't just be handed to anyone else?
If they touch it, you are attacking them with it!

Any source on energy melee weapons always damaging everything that touches them rather than only things which are attacked?
Logic. If you doubt that logic, go grab a weapons grade laser beam and let us know how that worked out.

Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
There is no mention anywhere of the pure energy blades being able to be thrown. If you want to claim that they can be, find a passage supporting it, because nothing about the nature of the weapons themselves supports it.

Far as I know you can throw any object by default, so you would need something to support being unable to throw things.

This seems like a balancing aspect to the cyber-knight psi-sword (it's part of them, so something prevents them from throwing it) absent in other forms since they are less attached to it.

dreicunan wrote:
Another way to phrase it, a "thrown" psi-sword would not be a psi-sword but a psi-bolt!

In the same way that a thrown metal sword becomes a metal bolt, I suppose?

dreicunan wrote:
Mind bolt already exists for that.

Mind Bolt can be done instantly, it doesn't require 15 seconds of prep. It's probably also a bit less eye-catching, and doesn't require hands to use.
Find a source proving that a psi-sword can be separated from the creator of the weapon.

Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
They aren't physical weapons; there is no hilt to actually grasp

I've seen hilts in a lot of psi-sword illustrations. Swords generally have them. I take it you have no source actually calling them hiltless?
The weapon is made entirely of energy. That would include whatever hilt it would appear to have.

Axelmania wrote:
We know that despite being able to parry attacks that PS damage isn't added (page 32 of Rifts GMG) but it does not:
    a Psi-Sword, Flamming Sword, or energy sword, only the weapon damage applies, any P.S. damage (supernatural or otherwise) is not added.

    However, a Vibro-sword uses a physical core and so damage bonuses can be applied to this weapon

The "physical core" aspect makes me think that could be a precedent for allowing P.S. damage to be applied when using the Amaki Duelist's psi-blade since that is definitely a physical core.

Another interesting observation: "throw" is not "drop" so a cyber-knight could plausibly drop a psi-sword onto someone.

Since damage from falling objects is weight-based, are psi-swords weightless?

Dropping a glowing white psi-sword down a dark shaft to see how deep it goes seems like an interesting use. But to actually drop I guess it would need to have mass to be affected by gravity, so there's a problem, because applying your own downward force would be a throw.

In that case though, you could simply let go of a massless energy weapon and it should stay in place wherever you let go as a beacon.

Having a physical core (Amaki device) could also solve the 'dropping' dilemma since then you would have mass pulling a dropped sword down. Rifts England's "Caliber X" wielded by King Arthuu is similar.
If you throw the TW Psi-blade enhancer, your psi-blade is still in your hand and is doing 2d6 MD less.

If you can find a source demonstrating that psi-sword can actually be separated from its creator, let us know.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:38 pm
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
I know Drew already brought it up but if a Psi-Sword, which doesn't mention it, COULD be thrown why would the Psi-Spear feel the need to specifically state that it could be thrown?


Daniel Stoker

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:07 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
thus saying that the throw option has to be written in the canon text for it to be canon

Except it doesn't actually say that, you're merely assuming that.

And yet again you quoted me out of context. Try quoting the Entire Idea when responding to what other people say. I will call you out on every time when you misquote me. So I will not be the one looking the fool.

Since you misquoted me....
Quote:
The only psi weapon that has a throw option; and thus saying that the throw option has to be written in the canon text for it to be canon; is the psi-spear.

I certainly read the canon (sub-)text when it says 'this is the exception to the basic rules because we wrote it into this power.'

And the basic rules about psi-weapon constructs is that they dissipate/dissolve when they are not touching their creator.

_________________
Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:25 am
  

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dreicunan wrote:
An autonomic action is one that is not carried out consciously.
Maintaining a Psi-sword is not an autonomic action.
That is why sleep would make it impossible to maintain.

Conscious action is not "automatic". I'm not seeing a source supplied supporting your idea that psi-sword maintenance requires ongoing conscious focus. Focus is effort, and we know this is effortless.

Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Page 64 of RUE notes the differences of Psi-sword of the Cyber-Knight from that of the Mind Melter.
It makes no mention of the weapon staying around if the Cyber-Knight goes unconscious

This gives examples of SOME of the ways in which it is different:
    First, the Cyber-Knight can create the weapon in an instant
    Second, there is no expenditure of I.S.P. in the conventional game sense
    Third, there is no limit on how the sword remains in effect nor any limit as to how many times a day the weapon can be created.
    If there is any downside, it is that the Cyber-Knight's Psi-Sword is not quite as powerful as the Mind Melter's

This is not described as an exhaustive list, however. There are clearly other known aspects of this which are NOT mentioned, such as the ability to form weapons other than swords. RUE 181 still clearly limits the super psi to Sword shapes.

Lacking the Super Psi's "unconscious = gone" limitation is clearly another unwritten difference. There is no "the power operates like the super psi except where indicated" policy mentioned anywhere.
Fair point, but the other differences you cite as unmentioned there are still actually mentioned. A lack of "unconscious=gone" is not, so it is in no way "clearly" another difference (and most definitely isn't "another unwritten" one, as all of the differences of which we are aware are written).

dreicunan wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
Any source on energy melee weapons always damaging everything that touches them rather than only things which are attacked?

Logic. If you doubt that logic, go grab a weapons grade laser beam and let us know how that worked out.

Palladium rules often do not follow logic, or follow some high-form logic whose underlying physics we cannot comprehend. There be dragons.

Not everything necessarily functions like Burster/Zapper auras.

Cyber-Knights and Mind Melters are not described as being immune to energy or immune to psi-swords or even immune to their own psi-swords. You could in theory, force someone to impale themselves using their own blade, if we actually had combat mechanics for such a level of grappling. Mind control is an easier route there.

So the explanation for how they can hold it without destroying their hands is obviously that they can designate portions of the weapon as non-injurious energy.

Being an energy construct able to inflict damage does not necessitate that any contact at all with the weapon is damaging.

dreicunan wrote:
Find a source proving that a psi-sword can be separated from the creator of the weapon.

The burden is on you to prove that "Range" applies to entire durations and not simply range-upon-activation.

Unless we are instructed that range is always in effect (ie "you can animate a skeleton up to 100 feet away, they fall apart if you try sending them beyond 100 feet) the range is just for activation.

This is why it is possible to use Mentally Possess Others then walk away from your body. Or do you think you need to keep in "touch" the entire time?

dreicunan wrote:
The weapon is made entirely of energy. That would include whatever hilt it would appear to have.

Energy which is not obligated to damage everything it touches. They are able to prevent harming themselves while using the weapon, and most notable there is nothing at all saying that a parry with a psi-sword inflicts damage to whatever it parries.

dreicunan wrote:
If you throw the TW Psi-blade enhancer, your psi-blade is still in your hand and is doing 2d6 MD less.

Take a look at WB9p165, Breaux illustrates the sword surrounds the core. Your speculation that the blade could somehow detach/separate from the core appears to be unfounded.

dreicunan wrote:
If you can find a source demonstrating that psi-sword can actually be separated from its creator, let us know.

Are you saying psi-swords can't be disarmed?

Daniel Stoker wrote:
if a Psi-Sword, which doesn't mention it, COULD be thrown why would the Psi-Spear feel the need to specifically state that it could be thrown?

We see redundant text in a lot of abilities. The presence of redundant text does not create an unwritten rule which now applies whenever the redundant text is absent.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
thus saying that the throw option has to be written in the canon text for it to be canon

Except it doesn't actually say that, you're merely assuming that.

And yet again you quoted me out of context. Try quoting the Entire Idea when responding to what other people say. I will call you out on every time when you misquote me. So I will not be the one looking the fool.

Since you misquoted me....
Quote:
The only psi weapon that has a throw option; and thus saying that the throw option has to be written in the canon text for it to be canon; is the psi-spear.

I certainly read the canon (sub-)text when it says 'this is the exception to the basic rules because we wrote it into this power.'

You were not misquoted. I quoted the relevant part, which I was disputing.

Psi-Spears do describe throwing.

The description of throwing does NOT say that it has to be written.

There is no such thing as canon sub-text. Sub-text is not RAW because it is not written. What you call sub-text is your speculation regarding rules-as-intended.

RAI discussions are very hard to resolve and should still be based on sound arguments and various RAW.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
And the basic rules about psi-weapon constructs is that they dissipate/dissolve when they are not touching their creator.

Where can I find this?


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:01 am
  

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Posts: 617
Axel, this all boils down to the fact that you are trying to claim that you can do things with a power which the power doesn't specify and which don't flow naturally from its description. You may as well be arguing that you can use a psi-sword as a spoon. After all, the power doesn't say that it always damages everything! It doesn't say that you can't form it into a spoon! For that matter, it doesn't say that you can't use it to make toast. Heck, it also doesn't prohibit you from making it in the shape of a frying pan! So dual it with you psi-spatula and make everyone some eggs for breakfast!

Most people, however, see powers as saying what they do, and only extrapolate to other uses if they clearly flow from it. Your ideas about throwing psi-swords or keeping them functioning even while asleep so that you can fill them with sword chi most definitely do not flow from what the power says it does.

However, specifically regarding the Psi-spear, THAT is most definitely not just "redundant" text. The Mystic Warrior also has a psi-tomahawk. If psi-swords can normally be thrown, why wouldn't the range for the tomahawk be specified? Clearly the issue of range for psi-weapons that can be thrown was on the mind of the writer here! The logical conclusion is that when the text says that the psi-spear is "effectively a psi-sword, the difference being that the Mystic Warrior can hurl it," that this is different because psi-swords cannot normally be thrown!

Also, conscious action can indeed be described as effortless. Humans beings manage to consciously and effortlessly express themselves in their native languages all the time. Sometimes, we have to out more effort in to do so, but most of the time we are able to say what we mean to say without automatically and effortlessly, to the point that we are able to do other things at the same time. Just like a Cyber-knight is able to maintain a normal psi-sword without it preventing him from doing other things. Yet just as out ability to speak and do other things does not mean that our speech is not a conscious act, neither does the Cyber-knights ability to maintain their psi-sword without it preventing them from doing other things mean that it is not a conscious act to maintain it.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:43 am
  

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Quote:
Axel, this all boils down to the fact that you are trying to claim that you can do things with a power which the power doesn't specify

Sword Chi Technique specifies I can empower swords. The OP Prodigy asked about psi-swords and light-blades. Those are swords, so if you can have them around long enough to attune with (Light Blade would need to have indefinite duration done via a Diabolist Ward for that to work) yes it would, as they are swords.

Quote:
You may as well be arguing that you can use a psi-sword as a spoon. After all, the power doesn't say that it always damages everything!

Cyber-Knight Psi-Swords can only be shaped into weapons, not other tools which might function as improvised weapons. Anything can be an improvised weapon so it would be pointless specifying weapons if it meant it could be formed into anything.

Quote:
The Mystic Warrior also has a psi-tomahawk. If psi-swords can normally be thrown, why wouldn't the range for the tomahawk be specified?

That's why you have W.P. Archery and Targeting. You only need to list range if it's a special ENHANCED range like the Psi-Spear has.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:28 am
  

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What is the range for the Psi-Sword then? :?


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:29 am
  

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The activation range for Psi-Sword is self (it appears in your hand) just like the activation ranges for Mind Bond and Mentally Possess Others is Touch.

If you wish to argue that you need to maintain physical contact with someone to keep their memories or keep possessing their bodies, we can weigh that much larger argument.

But if you are arguing that range for some reason gets special treatment for one ability, that's where I take issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:56 am
  

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The ranges of the two powers you brought up have nothing to do with the ranges of Psi-Swords, or other psi-constructs.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:21 am
  

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Yeah, I'm with Drew on this. The ranges for the other powers like the Psi-Spear is for how far you can throw it, which is why I'm pretty sure you can't throw a psi-sword.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:53 pm
  

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The range for Psi-Spear is because it is ridiculously further than you can throw normal spears.

Drew the range for those other two do have something to do with it: it is the range for activating powers.

You guys are arguing that ranges limit power effects for the entire duration of the power. Bond/Possess would have to follow your rule meaning you lose memories / possession soon as your bodies stop touching each other.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:33 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The ranges of the two powers you brought up have nothing to do with the ranges of Psi-Swords, or other psi-constructs.

No but's, why's or wherefore's.

This is you trying to shove a dodecahedron into a board w/o a hole to support your assertions. This is why I said.....
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The ranges of the two powers you brought up have nothing to do with the ranges of Psi-Swords, or other psi-constructs.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:16 pm
  

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I am explaining to you what "self" range means. It means when you activate the psi-sword, the sword appears on your person.

That's all it means. You are inventing house rules when you anything along the lines of 'self means the sword must remain on your person or the power ends'.

If you take that approach you must also argue 'touch means you must keep touching your target or the power ends'.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:26 pm
  

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So how far can you throw a Psi-sword?


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:21 pm
  

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Its astounding. Every thread Axel enters turns into this.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:23 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Quote:
Axel, this all boils down to the fact that you are trying to claim that you can do things with a power which the power doesn't specify

Sword Chi Technique specifies I can empower swords. The OP Prodigy asked about psi-swords and light-blades. Those are swords, so if you can have them around long enough to attune with (Light Blade would need to have indefinite duration done via a Diabolist Ward for that to work) yes it would, as they are swords.
Is an energy construct that doesn't need to be in the shape of a sword actually a sword? There is more to being a "sword" than the shape (especially in the context of the Chinese conception of the sword, as drewkitty pointed out).


Axelmania wrote:
Quote:
You may as well be arguing that you can use a psi-sword as a spoon. After all, the power doesn't say that it always damages everything!

Cyber-Knight Psi-Swords can only be shaped into weapons, not other tools which might function as improvised weapons. Anything can be an improvised weapon so it would be pointless specifying weapons if it meant it could be formed into anything.
Find text that actually declares that a spoon-shaped weapon is not a weapon!

Oh, and page 64 of RUE says point-blank that psi-weapons can't be thrown (2nd paragraph in the "shape" section).


Last edited by dreicunan on Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:17 pm
  

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I though the RAW of the rules was already stated.

As the Rules were Written they are only about physical blades. This is because in the context of the setting they are written in, only have physical blades in it.

To make the Chi-Sower Martial Arts Technique to apply to a non-physical blade would require House Rules that allow it to do so.

Yes Axey, you can make a house rule to let this happen in the games you GM. But this does not make your house rule what you seam to want it to be, book canon. The sooner you stop digging the hole....

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:52 pm
  

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dreicunan wrote:
Oh, and page 64 of RUE says point-blank that psi-weapons can't be thrown (2nd paragraph in the "shape" section).


So... based on how most of these threads goes that means it can be thrown what, 200 feet?


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:51 am
  

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Daniel Stoker wrote:
So how far can you throw a Psi-sword?

HU2p61:
    Swords, large axes, (non-throwing) knives, hammers, clubs, maces, pole-arms and most other hand-held weapons are NOT designed to be thrown.
    Consequently, the average throwing range is a mere 20 feet (6 m) and the character is -1 to strike.
    An attacker can try to throw such weapons farther, but is -3 to strike for every additional 1-10 feet (3 m) beyond 20 (6 m).

Daniel Stoker wrote:
based on how most of these threads goes that means it can be thrown what, 200 feet?

If you're willing to take a total of -55 (1+3*18) to strike, sure. Natural 20s always hit so it might be worth it!

HU2p61 had a problem in that it was open-ended, so I would suggest replacing it with page 52 of the HU GM's Guide.

According to that, if you had a PS between 3 and 19, you could throw a sword 15 feet.

If you think it's weird that someone with PS 3 and someone with PS 19 can throw a sword the same distance, I would suggest applying the optional rule of adding the PS attribute to this distance. In that case, someone with PS 10 could throw swords 25 feet.

If you think it's weird that the distance you can throw a 3 pound short sword and the distance you can throw a 7.5 pound flamberge is always identical, I concur but do not know an in-rules solution to fixing that.

dreicunan wrote:
Is an energy construct that doesn't need to be in the shape of a sword actually a sword?

Where does it say the HU2 super psionic power does not require being in a sword shape?

dreicunan wrote:
page 64 of RUE says point-blank that psi-weapons can't be thrown (2nd paragraph in the "shape" section).

It's bad enough you introduce your house rule that Cyber-Knight O.C.C. ability restrictions apply to other O.C.C.'s Super Psionic Powers on the Rifts forum, but you think it makes sense to bring it to HU as well?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
I though the RAW of the rules was already stated.

As the Rules were Written they are only about physical blades.

This is because in the context of the setting they are written in, only have physical blades in it.

Incorrect, as I already stated, Mystic China is a supplement for more than N&SS. Read page 1:
    A massive sourcebook for use with Heroes Unlimited™, Ninjas & Superspies™, and Beyond the Supernatural™

HU is actually listed FIRST, and it has energy weapons for aliens.

The rules as written do not specify physical blades so regardless of setting or context, RAW is they apply to all blades.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
To make the Chi-Sower Martial Arts Technique to apply to a non-physical blade would require House Rules that allow it to do so.

No, it requires going RAW and applying Sword Chi to all swords and not just your preferred swords (this is you creating a house rule).


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:22 am
  

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I've imported no house rule; I've just cited text that makes it clear that psi-weapons can't be thrown (it isn't just a limit specific to the Cyber-Knight OCC). However, that bit of text alone isn't needed to make the point.

Psi-swords aren't swords, Axelmania. They are "a shimmering blade of energy that resembles a glowing sword." Psionic energy, in fact. You can't argue that they can be thrown based on "swords can be thrown." They don't fit the category. Also, no physical component to them ("energy sword" weapons in HU have physical hilts; psi-swords don't). Psi-swords can't be thrown, and you most definitely can't use sword chi with them.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:34 am
  

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The limit is specific to the Cyber-Knight OCC, the very same section says all psi-weapons are made by Cyber-Knights.

Resembling a cat does not mean something is not a cat.

If Psi-Swords are not swords, why does WP Sword apply to it?


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:14 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
The limit is specific to the Cyber-Knight OCC, the very same section says all psi-weapons are made by Cyber-Knights.

Resembling a cat does not mean something is not a cat.

If Psi-Swords are not swords, why does WP Sword apply to it?

Because they are sword-like enough for the skills used to be applicable. If words have any meaning worth having, saying that something resembles something else means that it is not actualky the thing that it resembles. If it is, then it just is the thing. Psi-swords are not real swords. You can't use sword chi with them.

Further thought on the wp issue: It also applies because the wps are crazy broad. WP Sword in most versions of Palladiums WPs makes a character equally skilled with Flamberges, Fencing Foils, No-Dachis, and Gladii. That it includes laser "swords" and other sword shaped energy weapons comes as no surprise.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:09 pm
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
I could be misremembering this, but wasn't the Cyber-Knight the only one who could keep the Psi-Sword active long enough to even be possibly able to use the Sword-Chi technique?


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:01 pm
  

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Daniel Stoker wrote:
I could be misremembering this, but wasn't the Cyber-Knight the only one who could keep the Psi-Sword active long enough to even be possibly able to use the Sword-Chi technique?


Daniel Stoker

Only if the Cyber-Knight doesn't need to sleep for over a week and can maintain the sword 24 hours a day for 9ver a week. Cancel it once and the clock would start over. That's all moot since the Cyber-Knight texts makes it clear that a psi-sword isn't a real sword.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:34 am
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
I don't disagree but I was making sure we seemed to have been focused on them and their psi-sword at least.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:38 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
To make the Chi-Sower Martial Arts Technique to apply to a non-physical blade would require House Rules that allow it to do so.

No, it requires going RAW and applying Sword Chi to all swords and not just your preferred swords (this is you creating a house rule).

Actully you are much in the wrong in saying that axe. You have already been informed of the reasons why. It is you excluding things from the rules as they were written just because they are not in the cherry picked text you want to use as your whole basis for your house rules.

You might want to concider that the RAW includes EVERYTHING in the books. Not just cherry picked exerts you want to use.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:05 am
  

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dreicunan wrote:
If words have any meaning worth having, saying that something resembles something else means that it is not actualky the thing that it resembles.

That is not what the word resemble means.

I could see someone on the street and say "that person resembles celebrity X".

For all I know, it might well be celebrity X. Declaration of resemblance is not asserting distinction.

dreicunan wrote:
If it is, then it just is the thing.

Your expectations are noted, but that is not how language works. I've come across examples like this before in Palladium text where one minute they're talking about "appears" or "resembles" and the text they're literally calling something the thing.

dreicunan wrote:
Psi-swords are not real swords. You can't use sword chi with them.

No sources for either statement, so house rules.

Daniel Stoker wrote:
I could be misremembering this, but wasn't the Cyber-Knight the only one who could keep the Psi-Sword active long enough to even be possibly able to use the Sword-Chi technique?

Far as I can recall.

dreicunan wrote:
Only if the Cyber-Knight doesn't need to sleep for over a week and can maintain the sword 24 hours a day for 9ver a week.

It doesn't say anywhere that sleeping makes the sword vanish. Enough house rules.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Actully you are much in the wrong in saying that axe.
You have already been informed of the reasons why.

I dismantled your alleged reasons.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
It is you excluding things from the rules as they were written just because they are not in the cherry picked text you want to use as your whole basis for your house rules.

Drew, you haven't once cited a rule saying sword-chi can't be used on energy swords. Rather than a rule, your argument is based upon setting context.

This ignores that psi powers exist in Mystic China, and that it is a Heroes Unlimited supplement, which has psi powers.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
You might want to concider that the RAW includes EVERYTHING in the books. Not just cherry picked exerts you want to use.

No idea what you're referring to here. Hiding behind vague allusions again?


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:02 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
If words have any meaning worth having, saying that something resembles something else means that it is not actualky the thing that it resembles.

That is not what the word resemble means.

I could see someone on the street and say "that person resembles celebrity X".

For all I know, it might well be celebrity X. Declaration of resemblance is not asserting distinction.
The definition of "resemble" is "to look or be like something." It is not "to be something." If you say that a can of soda "resembles" a can of soda, you are misusing the word "resemble." The use of the word "resemble" does indeed assert a distinction; something must be distinct from another thing in order to resemble it.

Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
If it is, then it just is the thing.

Your expectations are noted, but that is not how language works. I've come across examples like this before in Palladium text where one minute they're talking about "appears" or "resembles" and the text they're literally calling something the thing.
That isn't the case here, however.

Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Psi-swords are not real swords. You can't use sword chi with them.

No sources for either statement, so house rules.
Rules as written, actually. Psi-swords resemble real swords. A Cyber-Knight can make his energy weapons "look almost as tightly cast and shaped as if he were wielding a real one made of cold steel" (RUE p. 64). He can almost make it look like he is wielding a real one. That only makes sense to say if he is not wielding a real one. He isn't wielding a real one. Ergo, no sword-chi.

Axelmania wrote:
Daniel Stoker wrote:
I could be misremembering this, but wasn't the Cyber-Knight the only one who could keep the Psi-Sword active long enough to even be possibly able to use the Sword-Chi technique?

Far as I can recall.

dreicunan wrote:
Only if the Cyber-Knight doesn't need to sleep for over a week and can maintain the sword 24 hours a day for 9ver a week.

It doesn't say anywhere that sleeping makes the sword vanish. Enough house rules.
Cyber-Knight's need to maintain their psi-weapons. We've already been over this. Automatic does not mean autonomic. Going to sleep would prevent them from maintaining it. No house rule here, either, just logic. This is all moot anyways, however, since psi-swords aren't real swords (once again, see RUE p. 64).


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:51 am
  

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Prodigy wrote:
I wasn't quite sure where to write this but I'll start in HU. If one has a Psi-Sword or other blade like Lightblade spell along with an N&SS martial art, can they use Sword-Chi with the sword? If anyone has any official reference it would be appreciated as well.

If any one of you are going to the Open House, maybe you can ask about this. I don't think the original question will get answered. I've reached my limit of questions that aren't mine to ask Kevin about at the Open House (below):

Myrrhibis wrote:
What happens to the contents of these, if the casting mage dies?

Does there suddenly appear a bunch of crap in the middle of the road as contents are disgorged, or are the contents lost to a random dimension, & may or may not be seen again?


After all the hot debate, I'll laugh if he gives a very short "oh, for sure" or "the spell ceases" type of answer. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:08 pm
  

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dreicunan wrote:
The definition of "resemble" is "to look or be like something." It is not "to be something."

Arguing a straw man here, I never said resemble = to be, just that saying resemble is not affirming "to not be".

dreicunan wrote:
If you say that a can of soda "resembles" a can of soda, you are misusing the word "resemble." The use of the word "resemble" does indeed assert a distinction; something must be distinct from another thing in order to resemble it.

I disagree with you on this. If I see a distant blue bird I can say "that bird resembles a bluejay".

This is not my saying "this absolutely is not a blue jay". It is equivalent to "that looks like a blue jay".

Saying "that looks like a blue jay" is not "that is a non-bluejay who looks like a bluejay". It is more like "that's either a bluejay or a similar-looking bird".

It is simply an uncommitted description.

dreicunan wrote:
That isn't the case here, however.

Sure it is, or has a psi-sword never been called a "sword" elsewhere?

Oh wait. Yes it has, and you intentionally omitted it.

dreicunan wrote:
Psi-swords aren't swords, Axelmania. They are "a shimmering blade of energy that resembles a glowing sword."

Now when I go and actually look at RUE 64, here is the FULL sentence:
    At first level the sword appears as a shimmering shaft of light and energy that resembles a glowing sword.

The part which you conveniently clipped off before "a shimmering" is "the sword appears as".

So no, you printed a falsehood. The phrase "a shimmering blade of energy that resembles a glowing sword" (ASBOETRAGS) is not what psi-swords "are", but rather what they "appear as".

dreicunan wrote:
Rules as written, actually. Psi-swords resemble real swords. A Cyber-Knight can make his energy weapons "look almost as tightly cast and shaped as if he were wielding a real one made of cold steel" (RUE p. 64). He can almost make it look like he is wielding a real one. That only makes sense to say if he is not wielding a real one. He isn't wielding a real one. Ergo, no sword-chi.

That statement is simply acknowledging that psi-swords are not made of steel, not that they are not real swords.

Sword Chi is not limited to steel swords.

dreicunan wrote:
Cyber-Knight's need to maintain their psi-weapons. We've already been over this. Automatic does not mean autonomic. Going to sleep would prevent them from maintaining it. No house rule here, either, just logic. This is all moot anyways, however, since psi-swords aren't real swords (once again, see RUE p. 64).


Automatic is stronger than autonomic.

Cyber-Knights do not "maintain" their psi-sword. The psi-sword remains in place indefinitely until they will it to disappear.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:13 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
The definition of "resemble" is "to look or be like something." It is not "to be something."

Arguing a straw man here, I never said resemble = to be, just that saying resemble is not affirming "to not be".

dreicunan wrote:
If you say that a can of soda "resembles" a can of soda, you are misusing the word "resemble." The use of the word "resemble" does indeed assert a distinction; something must be distinct from another thing in order to resemble it.

I disagree with you on this. If I see a distant blue bird I can say "that bird resembles a bluejay".

This is not my saying "this absolutely is not a blue jay". It is equivalent to "that looks like a blue jay".

Saying "that looks like a blue jay" is not "that is a non-bluejay who looks like a bluejay". It is more like "that's either a bluejay or a similar-looking bird".

It is simply an uncommitted description.
You can disagree all you want. You're wrong. You don't use the word "resemble" if you think that something actually is something. If you actually thought that something is that thing, you'd actually declare that (perhaps with hedging phrases, but you'd actually say it). You use the word "resemble" when you think that it is not that thing.

Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
That isn't the case here, however.

Sure it is, or has a psi-sword never been called a "sword" elsewhere?

Oh wait. Yes it has, and you intentionally omitted it.

dreicunan wrote:
Psi-swords aren't swords, Axelmania. They are "a shimmering blade of energy that resembles a glowing sword."

Now when I go and actually look at RUE 64, here is the FULL sentence:
    At first level the sword appears as a shimmering shaft of light and energy that resembles a glowing sword.

The part which you conveniently clipped off before "a shimmering" is "the sword appears as".

So no, you printed a falsehood. The phrase "a shimmering blade of energy that resembles a glowing sword" (ASBOETRAGS) is not what psi-swords "are", but rather what they "appear as".
You think that I intentionally omitted the word "sword" for a power that is called "psi-sword"? I think that you are just projecting now. But since you brought this point up, keep in mind that this sword can also "appear as" an axe, or a mace, or a staff. That is a good indication that the sword is not actually a sword.

Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Rules as written, actually. Psi-swords resemble real swords. A Cyber-Knight can make his energy weapons "look almost as tightly cast and shaped as if he were wielding a real one made of cold steel" (RUE p. 64). He can almost make it look like he is wielding a real one. That only makes sense to say if he is not wielding a real one. He isn't wielding a real one. Ergo, no sword-chi.

That statement is simply acknowledging that psi-swords are not made of steel, not that they are not real swords.

Sword Chi is not limited to steel swords.
This is hilarious. "As if he were wielding a real one made of cold steel." The canon text says that he can almost make it look like he is wielding a real sword. It could not possibly be clearer that psi-swords are not "real" swords. If they were "real" swords, then the sentence would say "as if he were wielding one made of cold steel." That isn't what it says; it says "as if he were wielding a real one made of cold steel." That only makes sense to say if the Psi-sword is not a real sword. Psi-swords aren't real swords.

Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Cyber-Knight's need to maintain their psi-weapons. We've already been over this. Automatic does not mean autonomic. Going to sleep would prevent them from maintaining it. No house rule here, either, just logic. This is all moot anyways, however, since psi-swords aren't real swords (once again, see RUE p. 64).


Automatic is stronger than autonomic.

Cyber-Knights do not "maintain" their psi-sword. The psi-sword remains in place indefinitely until they will it to disappear.

I just can't take you seriously any more on this. P. 65 clearly says "Maintaining its creation into subsequent melee rounds is automatic and effortless for the Knight." I know that you have read this passage. Clearly that means that Cyber-Knights need to maintain their psi-sword. It's time to just admit that they can't use sword chi with it and move on.


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