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 Post subject: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:28 pm
  

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I wasn't quite sure where to write this but I'll start in HU. If one has a Psi-Sword or other blade like Lightblade spell along with an N&SS martial art, can they use Sword-Chi with the sword? If anyone has any official reference it would be appreciated as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:44 pm
  

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As far as I know, there is no official ruling on this, but the Martial Art Power does state:

"Characters with Sword Chi should have a favorite weapon that can be drawn and used with Sword Chi instantly, without any other preparation. It is possible to have other, stand-by weapons attuned for Sword Chi, but the character must spend at least a week practicing with any new sword, and must give that sword a unique name. Then, anytime the character wants to switch from the usual blade (even in mid-combat), it will take one full melee round of concentration before the character can invoke Sword Chi with the secondary sword"

So, I guess as long as the "sword" in question is capable of meeting these requirements, it could be used. But that is just my opinion.

In Rifts China 2 - Heroes of the Celestial Court there is a Martial Art called Dragon Blade Kung Fu, which bears some similarities with Sword Chi, but it requires a person to spend 24-hours with their sword before they are allowed to "name" it. Using this interpretation, you would need to be able to summon and maintain your psi-sword or Lightblade for a full day in order to qualify for the abilities mentioned. However, as I noted earlier, this Martial Art is not the same as the Sword Chi power.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:17 pm
  

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Monk

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With the Sword Chi Martial Art Techniques in the MC book on page 160, while the text makes an assumption that what is being talked about are physical blades, other then the blade needing to be known and named I see not restriction that specifically says the MAT can't be used with mystic or immaterial blades.

Note the as a GM I would not let this idea be involved unless the player got me involved with their char creation. And if I thought it fit the character concept I might allow it for the coolness factor.
On The FlipSide...I would not let it be used with a TW magic item or a HU style energy blade.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:42 pm
  

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filo_clarke wrote:
As far as I know, there is no official ruling on this, but the Martial Art Power does state:

"Characters with Sword Chi should have a favorite weapon that can be drawn and used with Sword Chi instantly, without any other preparation. It is possible to have other, stand-by weapons attuned for Sword Chi, but the character must spend at least a week practicing with any new sword, and must give that sword a unique name. Then, anytime the character wants to switch from the usual blade (even in mid-combat), it will take one full melee round of concentration before the character can invoke Sword Chi with the secondary sword"

So, I guess as long as the "sword" in question is capable of meeting these requirements, it could be used. But that is just my opinion.

In Rifts China 2 - Heroes of the Celestial Court there is a Martial Art called Dragon Blade Kung Fu, which bears some similarities with Sword Chi, but it requires a person to spend 24-hours with their sword before they are allowed to "name" it. Using this interpretation, you would need to be able to summon and maintain your psi-sword or Lightblade for a full day in order to qualify for the abilities mentioned. However, as I noted earlier, this Martial Art is not the same as the Sword Chi power.


Perfect explanation. :D :ok:

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:19 am
  

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Agreed. Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:19 pm
  

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Knight

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My problem with this is you could view the spell/psi as creating a new weapon every single time, so it could not be around long enough to attune with it.

A Cyber-Knight from Rifts who can keep their psi-sword around indefinitely (no duration) could be an exception, but this might mean they could never dismiss their sword or they would lose the attunement and have to keep it around for a week to re-establish it. It would also likely mean they couldn't do things like alter the size/color/shape as that would make it into a new weapon as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:34 pm
  

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Palladin

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Just for what its worth...
...I would say that a Psi-Sword or Light Blade are not "swords" for purposes of Sword Chi.
Or put another way they are not the same weapon each time. You cast the spell and create a new light blade, you do not unsheathe the same one.
Now if you have a magic weapon that creates a blade as its usage then that weapon would count since in my opinion, then that lightblade is effectively part of the weapon and thus 'counts'
But if you want to use a conjured weapon you will have to dedicated it there on the spot and it will only be good for that one use.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:21 am
  

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D-Bee

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My question on this topic: What defines "other preparation"? Filo_Clarke's answer above gives the passage from the book about the weapon needing no other preparation to be used, but does casting a spell or calling for psionic energy count as preparation apart from drawing the blade?


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:53 pm
  

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Ninjas & Superspies Revised, page 166 wrote:
How does Chi affect, or interact, with Magic and Psionics in Revised Heroes?

Magic, Psionics, and Chi are all different, and exist on different "planes." For example, a character using the psionic power of astral projection will never interact with a Martial Artist using Mind Walk Zenjorike power. Chi passes through magic or psionic shields, just as magic passes through psionic or chi defenses, and psionic attacks pass through Chi or magic blocks.

A good example of this is Invisibility. Someone with the superpower of Invisibility is still detectable with Chi, Psionic, or Magical detection. Likewise magical invisibility is detectable by Chi or Psionic means.

This also means that Psionics have no special save against Chi attacks, and that Chi masters have no special save against psionics, or against powers like Control (Others) and Transferal/Possession.


Going off of that, I'm leaning toward no.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:38 am
  

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Knight

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Chi passes through physical objects too, that doesn't mean you can't store chi in an object, so why not a psionic object? We know you can store chi in vajras, which are magical objects, despite magic and chi existing on different planes.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:01 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Axelmania wrote:
Chi passes through physical objects too, that doesn't mean you can't store chi in an object, so why not a psionic object? We know you can store chi in vajras, which are magical objects, despite magic and chi existing on different planes.

Both of those are irrelevant though
1) there is no statement about the interaction of Magic/Psi/Chi and material matter, so bringing up their interaction proves nothing

2) Vajra are a Chi-Magic spell and are explicitly a fusion of the two arts. Thus as a fusion of the two they can interact with both abilities. But you can't store ISP in them, nor psionic abilities.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:10 pm
  

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filo_clarke wrote:
As far as I know, there is no official ruling on this, but the Martial Art Power does state:

"Characters with Sword Chi should have a favorite weapon that can be drawn and used with Sword Chi instantly, without any other preparation. It is possible to have other, stand-by weapons attuned for Sword Chi, but the character must spend at least a week practicing with any new sword, and must give that sword a unique name. Then, anytime the character wants to switch from the usual blade (even in mid-combat), it will take one full melee round of concentration before the character can invoke Sword Chi with the secondary sword"

So, I guess as long as the "sword" in question is capable of meeting these requirements, it could be used. But that is just my opinion.

In Rifts China 2 - Heroes of the Celestial Court there is a Martial Art called Dragon Blade Kung Fu, which bears some similarities with Sword Chi, but it requires a person to spend 24-hours with their sword before they are allowed to "name" it. Using this interpretation, you would need to be able to summon and maintain your psi-sword or Lightblade for a full day in order to qualify for the abilities mentioned. However, as I noted earlier, this Martial Art is not the same as the Sword Chi power.

This still leaves my question unanswered.
Why should we consider the Psi-Swords or Light Blades to be the same sword each time and thus count for purposes of spending a week practicing with them?
If I break a branch off of the nearest tree to use as a club in a fight, that does not mean that I am using the same club, just that I always use a tree branch as a club.
Similarly turning some PPE into a beam of light doesn't mean that each beam of light is the same, there is no continuation of existence between the various spells. That is why you have to spend more PPE or ISP to recreate the weapon each time.

I would believe that a Cyber-Knight would have a unique sword, it costs nothing, takes no time and is basically an extension of their self, heck they even say that its creation is made possible by the contemplation of their own chi. I can see a CK naming their sword and charging it. I would similarly allow a Tattoo weapon for the same reason.
Everyone else though... I'm kind of leery. But I could be convinced. I might even buy all psi-swords since they are fairly personal though I would need someone else to explain why they think that should count. But a simple spell? Not a chance in the world.

<edit> and a device who's function was the creation of such a weapon would work as well in my mind since the device is unchanged and the blade is not only part of the weapon but it is 'effectively' the same blade more or less. I would consider something like that to be akin to a bow and arrow or changing the hilt wrappings on a regular sword. This would allow a laser sword, or a TW flame blade, or a Psi-Sword Gizmo or what have you.

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Last edited by eliakon on Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:40 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
2) Vajra are a Chi-Magic spell and are explicitly a fusion of the two arts. Thus as a fusion of the two they can interact with both abilities. But you can't store ISP in them, nor psionic abilities.

Isn't the cyber-knight psi-sword also a fusion of ISP and chi? :)


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:43 pm
  

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Well seeing how Chi was never in the RMB the answer to that is no.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:57 pm
  

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Chi exists in Rifts Earth (see Rifts Mercenaries) and we can see from RUE 63:
Quote:
The Cyber-Knight's training is such, that ALL can call upon their Inner Strength and Spirit (ancient, pre-Rifts Oriental masters might have called this "chi") to perform superhuman feats as follows


This is under a section called "Psionic Powers, Inner Strength & Spirit" which interestingly, was formatted differently in SOT4p23 when it was introdued, where Psionic Powers was a larger font heading, with "Inner Strength & Spirit" as a smaller-font smallheading on a new line.

The choice to do this I believe clearly communicates that "inner strength" and "spirit" rather than being an aspect of psionic powers (a mistake of formatting perhaps) were separate aspects.

"Inner Strength" precedes a PPE amount and "Inner Spirit" an ISP amount in SOT4p23, while Ultimate replaced the latter with rolling for random psionics

SOT4p24/RUEp64 then mention:
Quote:
Presumably the knight creates it using both his inner strength and inner spirit (an unusual combination of P.P.E. and I.S.P.)


"might" and "presumably" are of course too loose to be called hard canon, but they are guidelines to possibilities we should think about. It is certainly feasible that chi could be a component of this, or that it is a merger of PPE and ISP, and Rifts Japan / Rifts China certainly muddy the waters on how Chi overlaps with these things too.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:38 pm
  

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Palladin

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Axelmania wrote:
Chi exists in Rifts Earth (see Rifts Mercenaries) and we can see from RUE 63:
Quote:
The Cyber-Knight's training is such, that ALL can call upon their Inner Strength and Spirit (ancient, pre-Rifts Oriental masters might have called this "chi") to perform superhuman feats as follows


This is under a section called "Psionic Powers, Inner Strength & Spirit" which interestingly, was formatted differently in SOT4p23 when it was introdued, where Psionic Powers was a larger font heading, with "Inner Strength & Spirit" as a smaller-font smallheading on a new line.

The choice to do this I believe clearly communicates that "inner strength" and "spirit" rather than being an aspect of psionic powers (a mistake of formatting perhaps) were separate aspects.

"Inner Strength" precedes a PPE amount and "Inner Spirit" an ISP amount in SOT4p23, while Ultimate replaced the latter with rolling for random psionics

SOT4p24/RUEp64 then mention:
Quote:
Presumably the knight creates it using both his inner strength and inner spirit (an unusual combination of P.P.E. and I.S.P.)


"might" and "presumably" are of course too loose to be called hard canon, but they are guidelines to possibilities we should think about. It is certainly feasible that chi could be a component of this, or that it is a merger of PPE and ISP, and Rifts Japan / Rifts China certainly muddy the waters on how Chi overlaps with these things too.

No we can not reasonably conclude this.
The chi (small c) of the Rifts Game is indisputably different than the Chi (capitol C) of the Ninjas and Superspies Game.
China 2 makes this crystal clear as it repeatedly references ISP and ISP powers as chi powers, and the Conversion Book creates a whole new set of Psionic powers that are explicitly psionic and explicitly chi powers.
This makes it quite clear that the canon for the Rifts Game is that chi is ISP and chi powers are a branch of psionics.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:09 pm
  

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Monk

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The Beast wrote:
Ninjas & Superspies Revised, page 166 wrote:
How does Chi affect, or interact, with Magic and Psionics in Revised Heroes?

Magic, Psionics, and Chi are all different, and exist on different "planes." For example, a character using the psionic power of astral projection will never interact with a Martial Artist using Mind Walk Zenjorike power. Chi passes through magic or psionic shields, just as magic passes through psionic or chi defenses, and psionic attacks pass through Chi or magic blocks.

A good example of this is Invisibility. Someone with the superpower of Invisibility is still detectable with Chi, Psionic, or Magical detection. Likewise magical invisibility is detectable by Chi or Psionic means.

This also means that Psionics have no special save against Chi attacks, and that Chi masters have no special save against psionics, or against powers like Control (Others) and Transferal/Possession.


Going off of that, I'm leaning toward no.

Thank you. With this I will update my statement to say absolutely not for psi-swords and magic immaterial swords.
------------
Axelmania wrote:
snip.. you can't store chi in an object, so why not a psionic object?
...snip

I do believe you mean psionic construct, because psi-swords are not objects.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:17 pm
  

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Knight

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eliakon wrote:
No we can not reasonably conclude this.
The chi (small c) of the Rifts Game is indisputably different than the Chi (capitol C) of the Ninjas and Superspies Game.

The capitalization is frequent, but not omnipresent, and thus optional. For example from page 22:
    A character suffering from any kind of insanity or mental illness will have severe chi problems. Use the following as a
    guide to dealing with the effect of insanity on chi. Affective Disorders reduce the character's chi to under 7; roll 1D6 for new chi level.

eliakon wrote:
China 2 makes this crystal clear as it repeatedly references ISP and ISP powers as chi powers, and the Conversion Book creates a whole new set of Psionic powers that are explicitly psionic and explicitly chi powers.
This makes it quite clear that the canon for the Rifts Game is that chi is ISP and chi powers are a branch of psionics.

Exact quotes please?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
I do believe you mean psionic construct, because psi-swords are not objects.

Where are you getting this 'constructs are not objects' idea from?


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:58 pm
  

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Monk

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That is what psi-swords are, psi constructs.

Sort of like how ideas are not physical objects.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:15 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
That is what psi-swords are, psi constructs.

Sort of like how ideas are not physical objects.


Good analogy.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:19 pm
  

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Knight

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No, but words/ideas can be non-physical subjects and objects :)

Who says all objects must be physical?

Let's read page 160 of Mystic China
Quote:
a martial artist focuses Chi through the hands and into the blade of a sword.


All we are told is that it must be a "sword" and have a "blade". It doesn't mention anything about "physical", so this should apply to things like dream weapons, astral weapons, or psi-weapons too.

Heck, you could even do this with a Wilk's Laser Sword or a TW Flameblade because you don't need the blade out to attune with the handle, just to contain the chi.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:43 pm
  

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Monk

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You do know that you are talking to what others on this board have called a Gammer Nazi?

I skipped the berating critique of that post to cut to the chase and just correcting the word misusage by providing 'to others' the correct word usage.

Psi-powers, Chi abilities and powers and Magic spells and powers have one thing in common. At their core they are all ideas. And they all are on different planes so don't interact unless the specific power/spell is made to interact with the other.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:06 pm
  

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Palladin

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Axelmania wrote:
No, but words/ideas can be non-physical subjects and objects :)

Who says all objects must be physical?

Let's read page 160 of Mystic China
Quote:
a martial artist focuses Chi through the hands and into the blade of a sword.


All we are told is that it must be a "sword" and have a "blade". It doesn't mention anything about "physical", so this should apply to things like dream weapons, astral weapons, or psi-weapons too.

Heck, you could even do this with a Wilk's Laser Sword or a TW Flameblade because you don't need the blade out to attune with the handle, just to contain the chi.

actually you have that backwards
You don't need the handle just the blade.
No blade to charge, no Sword Chi.
Which is why the question is being asked.
Since the issue is basically is my psi-sword the same one every time or is it a wholly new object each time.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
snip.. you can't store chi in an object, so why not a psionic object?
...snip

I do believe you mean psionic construct, because psi-swords are not objects.

Ummm say what?
The definition of an object is a goal or anything that is visible. An example of object is the reason that something was done. An example of object is an orange

Since a Psi-Sword is visible. it is quite literally by definition an object.
It may also be a Psionic Construct (or it may not be), but things can belong to more than one class. Thus a single being can be an Elf AND a Mage AND a Hippie AND a citizen of Lazlo. None of which neither implies the other nor bars them. The could even have MORE classes too. They might have Blonde Hair (class: beings with blonde hair). And Like the Color Pink (class: People who like the color pink). And hate cucumbers (beings who dislike cucumbers). And...

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:37 pm
  

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Palladin

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No because the Sword Chi technique explicitly works with a physical object, a sword you have familiarized yourself with over weeks to the point of giving it a unique name. You've become so aware of that unique item that you can infuse some of your chi into it as an extension of yourself. Magical or psionically-created blades are simply energy manifestations that are never for one going to be using the same energy time after time and since they aren't matter there's nothing for you to spend time familiarizing yourself with because it's a new item every time. So no you can't use the two together.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:10 am
  

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Knight

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
You do know that you are talking to what others on this board have called a Gammer Nazi?

Is that like a cross between a Grammar Nazi and a Gamer Nazi?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Psi-powers, Chi abilities and powers and Magic spells and powers have one thing in common. At their core they are all ideas. And they all are on different planes so don't interact unless the specific power/spell is made to interact with the other.

The thing about interaction was regarding defenses, it doesn't say anything about being unable to store chi in a magic sword or a psychic rune sword or whatever you seem to be assuming here.

eliakon wrote:
actually you have that backwards
You don't need the handle just the blade.
No blade to charge, no Sword Chi.
Which is why the question is being asked.
Since the issue is basically is my psi-sword the same one every time or is it a wholly new object each time.

You only need the weapon (ie the handle) to attune. To actually fill with chi post-attunement you then need the blade.

eliakon wrote:
The definition of an object is a goal or anything that is visible. An example of object is the reason that something was done. An example of object is an orange

I dunno, wouldn't invisible swords also be objects?

Nightmask wrote:
the Sword Chi technique explicitly works with a physical object, a sword you have familiarized yourself with over weeks to the point of giving it a unique name.

When you say "explicitly", one expects you would provide a quote with the word "physical". You haven't.

It is possible to familiarize yourself and give unique names to non-physical things.

Plus, I think a psi-sword inflicts physical damage and can do things like parry physical attacks, was your "no" in response to the Wilk's laser blade?

Nightmask wrote:
Magical or psionically-created blades are simply energy manifestations that are never for one going to be using the same energy time after time

Irrelevant, the power doesn't discuss any "same energy" requirements.

Nightmask wrote:
and since they aren't matter there's nothing for you to spend time familiarizing yourself with because it's a new item every time. So no you can't use the two together.

It isn't a "new item every time" if you do not uncreate your psi-swords. Cyber-knights are able to keep them up indefinitely if they want to.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:01 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
You do know that you are talking to what others on this board have called a Gammer Nazi?

Is that like a cross between a Grammar Nazi and a Gamer Nazi?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Psi-powers, Chi abilities and powers and Magic spells and powers have one thing in common. At their core they are all ideas. And they all are on different planes so don't interact unless the specific power/spell is made to interact with the other.

The thing about interaction was regarding defenses, it doesn't say anything about being unable to store chi in a magic sword or a psychic rune sword or whatever you seem to be assuming here.

eliakon wrote:
actually you have that backwards
You don't need the handle just the blade.
No blade to charge, no Sword Chi.
Which is why the question is being asked.
Since the issue is basically is my psi-sword the same one every time or is it a wholly new object each time.

You only need the weapon (ie the handle) to attune. To actually fill with chi post-attunement you then need the blade.

I don't see that in the text just the statement about the blade. is there a place where the text about the hilt is written? I ask because in Asian sword making the blade and hilt are often seperateable and it was common to change out the hilt of a sword many times while keeping the blade. As I understand it this was that was what was considered to be where the 'soul' of the sword was and was the only part that counted, the hilt was just a decoration that let you wield the sword

Axelmania wrote:
eliakon wrote:
The definition of an object is a goal or anything that is visible. An example of object is the reason that something was done. An example of object is an orange

I dunno, wouldn't invisible swords also be objects?

There isn't anything that is actually truly invisible thought.
Just things that are visible in different ways.

Axelmania wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
the Sword Chi technique explicitly works with a physical object, a sword you have familiarized yourself with over weeks to the point of giving it a unique name.

When you say "explicitly", one expects you would provide a quote with the word "physical". You haven't.

It is possible to familiarize yourself and give unique names to non-physical things.

Plus, I think a psi-sword inflicts physical damage and can do things like parry physical attacks, was your "no" in response to the Wilk's laser blade?

Nightmask wrote:
Magical or psionically-created blades are simply energy manifestations that are never for one going to be using the same energy time after time

Irrelevant, the power doesn't discuss any "same energy" requirements.

Nightmask wrote:
and since they aren't matter there's nothing for you to spend time familiarizing yourself with because it's a new item every time. So no you can't use the two together.

It isn't a "new item every time" if you do not uncreate your psi-swords. Cyber-knights are able to keep them up indefinitely if they want to.

True. Assuming that a CK is able to maintain the sword in their sleep (which I do not think is possible) then it might be possible to empower that psi-sword...
...at least until they DO deactivate it, at which time they will have to go through the whole weeks long process again.
And THAT assumes that the GM would allow them to give each manifestation of their psi-sword a unique name and not rule that since the Knight sees their sword as a part of themselves that the first name is the name of their power and that they can do this once ever (which is how I would see it, though I might allow a CK or the like to use this on their sword. Maybe).

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:52 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
the Sword Chi technique explicitly works with a physical object, a sword you have familiarized yourself with over weeks to the point of giving it a unique name.

When you say "explicitly", one expects you would provide a quote with the word "physical". You haven't.

It is possible to familiarize yourself and give unique names to non-physical things.

Plus, I think a psi-sword inflicts physical damage and can do things like parry physical attacks, was your "no" in response to the Wilk's laser blade?


One doesn't HAVE to provide anything of the sort, the text regarding Sword Chi Technique EXPLICITLY references a PHYSICAL object, there is NO option to claim that it means you can apply it to non-physical energy as well. Psi-Swords and other energy swords are explicitly NOT a physical object and one can no more infuse them with chi through the Sword Chi Technique than one can use the Imbue Object with Chi spell on them. You also can't familiarize yourself with something unique that's not unique and is created fresh with every use.

Axelmania wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Magical or psionically-created blades are simply energy manifestations that are never for one going to be using the same energy time after time


Irrelevant, the power doesn't discuss any "same energy" requirements.


Completely relevant, the physical sword you have to familiarize yourself with OBVIOUSLY uses the same matter as you learn how to infuse it with your Chi, if you aren't using the same energy every time then you can't be using the same weapon every time it's a different weapon every time.

Axelmania wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
and since they aren't matter there's nothing for you to spend time familiarizing yourself with because it's a new item every time. So no you can't use the two together.


It isn't a "new item every time" if you do not uncreate your psi-swords. Cyber-knights are able to keep them up indefinitely if they want to.


YES it's a new item, no you can't keep a psi-sword up indefinitely, and it's ridiculous to even attempt to claim that a technique that explicitly is built for use with physical weapons that are clearly made up the same matter as long as the weapon exists could work with something completely unrelated to the technique and it's intent and design.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:09 pm
  

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Nightmask wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
the Sword Chi technique explicitly works with a physical object, a sword you have familiarized yourself with over weeks to the point of giving it a unique name.

When you say "explicitly", one expects you would provide a quote with the word "physical". You haven't.

It is possible to familiarize yourself and give unique names to non-physical things.

Plus, I think a psi-sword inflicts physical damage and can do things like parry physical attacks, was your "no" in response to the Wilk's laser blade?


One doesn't HAVE to provide anything of the sort, the text regarding Sword Chi Technique EXPLICITLY references a PHYSICAL object, there is NO option to claim that it means you can apply it to non-physical energy as well. Psi-Swords and other energy swords are explicitly NOT a physical object and one can no more infuse them with chi through the Sword Chi Technique than one can use the Imbue Object with Chi spell on them. You also can't familiarize yourself with something unique that's not unique and is created fresh with every use.

I have to agree with Axelmania on this one.
If the claim is that it is Explicitly referring to a Pyhsical object then the claim is that they mean a physical sword and no other kind of sword and that one needs to be proven.
Simply asserting that it is true and that there is no possible way it could be anything else is not proof. That is a logical fallacy (several actually)


Nightmask wrote:

Axelmania wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
and since they aren't matter there's nothing for you to spend time familiarizing yourself with because it's a new item every time. So no you can't use the two together.


It isn't a "new item every time" if you do not uncreate your psi-swords. Cyber-knights are able to keep them up indefinitely if they want to.


YES it's a new item, no you can't keep a psi-sword up indefinitely, and it's ridiculous to even attempt to claim that a technique that explicitly is built for use with physical weapons that are clearly made up the same matter as long as the weapon exists could work with something completely unrelated to the technique and it's intent and design.

This is not an argument.
It is an appeal to the stone and an appeal from incredulity. Specifically simply stating that something is ridiculous because you say so, and that since you can't imagine it being true it must be false are both logical fallacies.
I agree with the final out comes, but they need actual proof not simply asserted to be (unless the asserter is Kevin Siembieda).

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:27 am
  

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Given that page 160 of mystic China says that you should have a favorite sword that can be drawn and used with sword chi instantly, without any other preparation, I'd say that would rule out any of the non-physical "blades." At the very least, it would reinforce the idea that a physical blade is assumed.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:09 am
  

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dreicunan wrote:
Given that page 160 of mystic China says that you should have a favorite sword that can be drawn and used with sword chi instantly, without any other preparation, I'd say that would rule out any of the non-physical "blades." At the very least, it would reinforce the idea that a physical blade is assumed.

I am leaning more and more toward the idea that only a Cyber-Knight or something similar i.e. has an inherent bladed weapon of some type that they can cause to appear at will. And given that I am not aware of any canon way for a person in HU2 to get a MAF (the N&SS rules are for HU1 not HU2 for example) it is going to be a total GMs call in any and all situations anyway wouldn't it?

Unless someone can provide an example of a canon way to have a person that has BOTH Sword-Chi and a summonable blade weapon?

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:19 am
  

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dreicunan wrote:
Given that page 160 of mystic China says that you should have a favorite sword that can be drawn and used with sword chi instantly, without any other preparation, I'd say that would rule out any of the non-physical "blades." At the very least, it would reinforce the idea that a physical blade is assumed.


A cyber-knight's psi-sword probably is his favorite sword. It can probably be drawn faster than a real sword can, since you don't have to bother with scabbard. Nothing reinforces a physical blade...

Also nothing is reinforcing this idea that psi-swords are not physical. They seem physical to me. Are we thinking Impervious to Energy stops it?

'Physical' stuff would be a separate argument to have about stuff like Wilks Laser Swords / TW Flame Blades, which have physical handles and energy (laser or fire) blades.

eliakon wrote:
I am not aware of any canon way for a person in HU2 to get a MAF

HU2 mentions under the Ancient Master section that you can play the Dedicated Martial Artist OCC. With GM permission of course, but that applies to everything

eliakon wrote:
N&SS rules are for HU1 not HU2 for example

N&SS was published before the 2nd edition but that doesn't mean its conversion notes do not apply anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:15 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Given that page 160 of mystic China says that you should have a favorite sword that can be drawn and used with sword chi instantly, without any other preparation, I'd say that would rule out any of the non-physical "blades." At the very least, it would reinforce the idea that a physical blade is assumed.


A cyber-knight's psi-sword probably is his favorite sword. It can probably be drawn faster than a real sword can, since you don't have to bother with scabbard. Nothing reinforces a physical blade...

Also nothing is reinforcing this idea that psi-swords are not physical. They seem physical to me. Are we thinking Impervious to Energy stops it?

'Physical' stuff would be a separate argument to have about stuff like Wilks Laser Swords / TW Flame Blades, which have physical handles and energy (laser or fire) blades.

To be able to draw a sword, it must be in something out of which one draws it. The psi-sword is not drawn; it is "summoned," "willed into existence." If it being "willed into existence," that means that when it goes away it no longer exists. "There is no limit as to how long the weapon remains in effect nor any limit as to how many times a day it can be created." If it is being created multiple times, then it isn't the same blade each time it is created. Therefore, it could not be used for Sword Chi.

Statements such as "A Psi-sword is a Mega-Damage energy weapon," "All psi-weapons are energy based," and "The color of the energy used to make the psi-sword" are pretty clear: it is an energy weapon. Impervious to Energy stops "all forms of energy," so of course it would stop a psi-sword.

(Nota bene: all quotes from RUE page 64 except "all forms of energy" which is from RUE page 210.)


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:42 pm
  

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dreicunan wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Given that page 160 of mystic China says that you should have a favorite sword that can be drawn and used with sword chi instantly, without any other preparation, I'd say that would rule out any of the non-physical "blades." At the very least, it would reinforce the idea that a physical blade is assumed.


A cyber-knight's psi-sword probably is his favorite sword. It can probably be drawn faster than a real sword can, since you don't have to bother with scabbard. Nothing reinforces a physical blade...

Also nothing is reinforcing this idea that psi-swords are not physical. They seem physical to me. Are we thinking Impervious to Energy stops it?

'Physical' stuff would be a separate argument to have about stuff like Wilks Laser Swords / TW Flame Blades, which have physical handles and energy (laser or fire) blades.

To be able to draw a sword, it must be in something out of which one draws it. The psi-sword is not drawn; it is "summoned," "willed into existence." If it being "willed into existence," that means that when it goes away it no longer exists. "There is no limit as to how long the weapon remains in effect nor any limit as to how many times a day it can be created." If it is being created multiple times, then it isn't the same blade each time it is created. Therefore, it could not be used for Sword Chi.

Statements such as "A Psi-sword is a Mega-Damage energy weapon," "All psi-weapons are energy based," and "The color of the energy used to make the psi-sword" are pretty clear: it is an energy weapon. Impervious to Energy stops "all forms of energy," so of course it would stop a psi-sword.

(Nota bene: all quotes from RUE page 64 except "all forms of energy" which is from RUE page 210.)

Hmmm, some good points to consider there.
I would, personally, still allow psi-swords to harm a person with Impervious to Energy in my games... but that is simply because in my personal opinion that spell is absurdly powerful as it is and already close to an I Win Button. THAT said, I can see where the RAW would clearly make that a house rule as the canon is pretty clear that yes it is an energy attack.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:21 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Given that page 160 of mystic China says that you should have a favorite sword that can be drawn and used with sword chi instantly, without any other preparation, I'd say that would rule out any of the non-physical "blades." At the very least, it would reinforce the idea that a physical blade is assumed.


A cyber-knight's psi-sword probably is his favorite sword. It can probably be drawn faster than a real sword can, since you don't have to bother with scabbard. Nothing reinforces a physical blade...

Also nothing is reinforcing this idea that psi-swords are not physical. They seem physical to me. Are we thinking Impervious to Energy stops it?

'Physical' stuff would be a separate argument to have about stuff like Wilks Laser Swords / TW Flame Blades, which have physical handles and energy (laser or fire) blades.

To be able to draw a sword, it must be in something out of which one draws it. The psi-sword is not drawn; it is "summoned," "willed into existence." If it being "willed into existence," that means that when it goes away it no longer exists. "There is no limit as to how long the weapon remains in effect nor any limit as to how many times a day it can be created." If it is being created multiple times, then it isn't the same blade each time it is created. Therefore, it could not be used for Sword Chi.

Statements such as "A Psi-sword is a Mega-Damage energy weapon," "All psi-weapons are energy based," and "The color of the energy used to make the psi-sword" are pretty clear: it is an energy weapon. Impervious to Energy stops "all forms of energy," so of course it would stop a psi-sword.

(Nota bene: all quotes from RUE page 64 except "all forms of energy" which is from RUE page 210.)

Hmmm, some good points to consider there.
I would, personally, still allow psi-swords to harm a person with Impervious to Energy in my games... but that is simply because in my personal opinion that spell is absurdly powerful as it is and already close to an I Win Button. THAT said, I can see where the RAW would clearly make that a house rule as the canon is pretty clear that yes it is an energy attack.

I'm now wondering if a psi-sword should damage a character with the Invulnerability super-power RAW. If energy type magic doesn't damage the character, why would energy type psi?

I know that it was ruled that it would do damage back when I was playing a character with that power in a fantasy campaign, but we were playing out of the HU Revised book at the time, not 2nd edition, and I remember the GM at the time feeling like it was one of the few options for actually damaging my character without turning every opponent into a loot train (gasses were out since the character was an experiment with Breathe without Air side effect), since there was no clarification about supernatural strength doing half damage, just that magic weapons did full damge (the other members of the group were rather dissapointed to see that the GM was NOT going to be sending squads of assassins armed with magic sword and rune weapons after me, as they'd been planning on making a whole bunch of money off of me after I rolled that power during character creation).


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:02 pm
  

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dreicunan wrote:
I'm now wondering if a psi-sword should damage a character with the Invulnerability super-power RAW. If energy type magic doesn't damage the character, why would energy type psi?

I know that it was ruled that it would do damage back when I was playing a character with that power in a fantasy campaign, but we were playing out of the HU Revised book at the time, not 2nd edition, and I remember the GM at the time feeling like it was one of the few options for actually damaging my character without turning every opponent into a loot train (gasses were out since the character was an experiment with Breathe without Air side effect), since there was no clarification about supernatural strength doing half damage, just that magic weapons did full damge (the other members of the group were rather dissapointed to see that the GM was NOT going to be sending squads of assassins armed with magic sword and rune weapons after me, as they'd been planning on making a whole bunch of money off of me after I rolled that power during character creation).


Well that argument has been done here to death, but as per the most recent book on the power:

HU Wrote wrote:
The character is only, truly, vulnerable to psionics, spell magic, magic illusions and magic weapons, all of which have full effect. However energy type magic, like fireballs does no damage.


And since Psi-Sword is a psionic power so I'd say yeah it would effect them and do damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:39 am
  

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dreicunan wrote:
To be able to draw a sword, it must be in something out of which one draws it. The psi-sword is not drawn; it is "summoned," "willed into existence."

This is irrelevant to sword chi, the power does not require a scabbard.

"Characters with Sword Chi should have a favorite weapon that can be drawn and used with Sword Chi instantly" uses words like "should" and "can".

As in, if you need to be able to draw it and use it instantly, you can, but it doesn't mean you have to 'draw' the sword to be able to use it.

Instant-drawing requires Iai-Jutsu anyway, far as I know, otherwise you'd spend a melee action to draw the weapon, and Iai-Jutsu is not a Sword Chi Technique prereq.

dreicunan wrote:
If it being "willed into existence," that means that when it goes away it no longer exists. "There is no limit as to how long the weapon remains in effect nor any limit as to how many times a day it can be created." If it is being created multiple times, then it isn't the same blade each time it is created. Therefore, it could not be used for Sword Chi.

I am not arguing that sword chi would carry over to a re-created sword, I'm talking about a cyber-knight who never uncreates his infinite-duration sword and keeps it around all the time, weeks on end, having enough time to attune with it.

dreicunan wrote:
Statements such as "A Psi-sword is a Mega-Damage energy weapon," "All psi-weapons are energy based," and "The color of the energy used to make the psi-sword" are pretty clear: it is an energy weapon. Impervious to Energy stops "all forms of energy," so of course it would stop a psi-sword.

(Nota bene: all quotes from RUE page 64 except "all forms of energy" which is from RUE page 210.)

I'll let others have fun with these claims.

I'll simple point out that SCT does not prohibit energy swords anywhere.

Interesting mention on 160:
    if facing a sword or other weapon that's filled with Chi from another wielder using Sword Chi Awareness,
    or an object that's been filled with Chi by Chi Mastery or Chi Magic

The latter I believe refers to "Fill Object with Chi" which is a 2nd level Chi Magic Spell on page 75, or page 154's "Advanced Positive or Negative Chi Abilities" chi mastery of the same name.

I believe our questions about this Martial Art Technique should apply to the FOWC mastery/spell as well. In these cases we're told "the actual physical object will be left behind" and that a "chi aspect" of a weapon can come along on Mind Walks.

"Energy" can still be "Physical" however.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:06 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
To be able to draw a sword, it must be in something out of which one draws it. The psi-sword is not drawn; it is "summoned," "willed into existence."

This is irrelevant to sword chi, the power does not require a scabbard.

"Characters with Sword Chi should have a favorite weapon that can be drawn and used with Sword Chi instantly" uses words like "should" and "can".

As in, if you need to be able to draw it and use it instantly, you can, but it doesn't mean you have to 'draw' the sword to be able to use it.

Instant-drawing requires Iai-Jutsu anyway, far as I know, otherwise you'd spend a melee action to draw the weapon, and Iai-Jutsu is not a Sword Chi Technique prereq.
It doesn't require a scabbard, but it does need a sword capable of being drawn, which means a physical blade. As to your Iai-Jutsu comment, you are misreading the text. It doesn't say that it needs to be drawn instantly. It says drawn and used instantly. In context, that means a sword that ia already attuned to you.

Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
If it being "willed into existence," that means that when it goes away it no longer exists. "There is no limit as to how long the weapon remains in effect nor any limit as to how many times a day it can be created." If it is being created multiple times, then it isn't the same blade each time it is created. Therefore, it could not be used for Sword Chi.

I am not arguing that sword chi would carry over to a re-created sword, I'm talking about a cyber-knight who never uncreates his infinite-duration sword and keeps it around all the time, weeks on end, having enough time to attune with it.
So a cyber-knight who never sleeps? Or, if we assume that they can keep it on while they sleep, never moves and accidentally impales themselves while they sleep? It isn't like they can set the psi-sword down!

Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Statements such as "A Psi-sword is a Mega-Damage energy weapon," "All psi-weapons are energy based," and "The color of the energy used to make the psi-sword" are pretty clear: it is an energy weapon. Impervious to Energy stops "all forms of energy," so of course it would stop a psi-sword.

(Nota bene: all quotes from RUE page 64 except "all forms of energy" which is from RUE page 210.)

I'll let others have fun with these claims.

I'll simple point out that SCT does not prohibit energy swords anywhere.
I'm missing the acronym. What is SCT?


Last edited by dreicunan on Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:11 am
  

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dreicunan wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Statements such as "A Psi-sword is a Mega-Damage energy weapon," "All psi-weapons are energy based," and "The color of the energy used to make the psi-sword" are pretty clear: it is an energy weapon. Impervious to Energy stops "all forms of energy," so of course it would stop a psi-sword.

(Nota bene: all quotes from RUE page 64 except "all forms of energy" which is from RUE page 210.)

I'll let others have fun with these claims.

I'll simple point out that SCT does not prohibit energy swords anywhere.


I'm missing the acronym. What is SCT?


It's abbreviating 'Sword Chi Technique' to its initials.

The counterpoint being that NOWHERE does it allow for energy weapons to be used with a technique that was clearly developed for physical weapons, all references are to material weapons, nothing makes allowance for using it with non-corporeal/energy weapons. 'They didn't say you can't so you can' simply doesn't wash. It explicitly needs to say you can before you can, and it doesn't.

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It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:19 am
  

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Nightmask wrote:
The counterpoint being that NOWHERE does it allow for energy weapons to be used with a technique that was clearly developed for physical weapons, all references are to material weapons, nothing makes allowance for using it with non-corporeal/energy weapons. 'They didn't say you can't so you can' simply doesn't wash. It explicitly needs to say you can before you can, and it doesn't.

Ancient WP in general were developed with physical weaponry. Are you suggesting that they do not apply to non-corporeal or energy melee weapons? This is a much broader discussion than one Martial Arts Technique.

Broader than psi-swords too. Pg 98-99 of HU2's alien weapons also raise examples for analysis.

dreicunan wrote:
It doesn't require a scabbard, but it does need a sword capable of being drawn, which means a physical blade.

Firstly I'm still not seeing where you get this need for draw-capability.

Secondly: there's nothing stopping you from scabbaring an energy blade.

dreicunan wrote:
As to your Iai-Jutsu comment, you are misreading the text. It doesn't say that it needs to be drawn instantly. It says drawn and used instantly. In context, that means a sword that ia already attuned to you.

Then I'm not sure why you brought up the instantly thing.

dreicunan wrote:
a cyber-knight who never sleeps? Or, if we assume that they can keep it on while they sleep, never moves and accidentally impales themselves while they sleep? It isn't like they can set the psi-sword down!

Do you recall in which book this idea of a dropped psi-sword instantly vanishing is from?

313 of HU2 for the master psi for example:
    If the psychic is knocked unconscious, the weapon disappears.
    Likewise. the character can willingly dispel the weapon with a thought
    it cannot be given to another character to use.

Sleep is not being knocked unconscious. Being unable to give a weapon to others doesn't necessarily means it vanishes if you let go, it could just mean that the handle functions as insubstantial when anyone but the creator tries to grip it.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:25 pm
  

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Posts: 771
Axelmania wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
The counterpoint being that NOWHERE does it allow for energy weapons to be used with a technique that was clearly developed for physical weapons, all references are to material weapons, nothing makes allowance for using it with non-corporeal/energy weapons. 'They didn't say you can't so you can' simply doesn't wash. It explicitly needs to say you can before you can, and it doesn't.

Ancient WP in general were developed with physical weaponry. Are you suggesting that they do not apply to non-corporeal or energy melee weapons? This is a much broader discussion than one Martial Arts Technique.

Broader than psi-swords too. Pg 98-99 of HU2's alien weapons also raise examples for analysis.

dreicunan wrote:
It doesn't require a scabbard, but it does need a sword capable of being drawn, which means a physical blade.

Firstly I'm still not seeing where you get this need for draw-capability.

Secondly: there's nothing stopping you from scabbaring an energy blade.

dreicunan wrote:
As to your Iai-Jutsu comment, you are misreading the text. It doesn't say that it needs to be drawn instantly. It says drawn and used instantly. In context, that means a sword that ia already attuned to you.

Then I'm not sure why you brought up the instantly thing.

dreicunan wrote:
a cyber-knight who never sleeps? Or, if we assume that they can keep it on while they sleep, never moves and accidentally impales themselves while they sleep? It isn't like they can set the psi-sword down!

Do you recall in which book this idea of a dropped psi-sword instantly vanishing is from?

313 of HU2 for the master psi for example:
    If the psychic is knocked unconscious, the weapon disappears.
    Likewise. the character can willingly dispel the weapon with a thought
    it cannot be given to another character to use.

Sleep is not being knocked unconscious. Being unable to give a weapon to others doesn't necessarily means it vanishes if you let go, it could just mean that the handle functions as insubstantial when anyone but the creator tries to grip it.

I get the idea that the sword needs to be drawn because it says the characters with Sword Chi should have "a sword that can be drawn." So allow me to get a little tautological and point out that for a sword to be able to be drawn, one must be able to draw the sword out of something!

As to their not being able to be set down, well, why do you think that they can't be thrown?

As for maintaining them while asleep, I find it doubtful that a power that needs to be maintained can be maintained when you are asleep. To put it another way, I don't see any evidence that maintaining the power is so automatic that is autonomic!


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:49 am
  

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I don't see what would prevent an energy blade from being put into a sheath/scabbard. You would just need to have something adhere to the physical handle to hold it in place. Drawing simply means manipulating a handle to remove the blade from the confines.

Unless you're arguing you need to have sheathed a weapon to be able to use sword chi, I'm not seeing where you think sheathability comes into this. You can build a sheath around the dimensions of any weapon.

Reading this as a more complete thought...

    Characters with Sword Chi should have a favorite weapon that can be
    drawn and used with Sword Chi instantly,
    without any other preparation.

This is not talking about how the power works, it is a tactical recommendation. It simply assumes most people sheath their weapons, and says it's a good idea if that (grabbing your weapon) is all the prep time you need. Because otherwise....


    anytime the character wants to switch from the usual blade (even in mid-combat), it will take one full melee round of concentration before the character can invoke Sword Chi with the secondary sword

Thus the "other preparation" which is not "instantly".

Quote:
As to their not being able to be set down, well, why do you think that they can't be thrown?

Where's that from again, the FAQ?

I've seen some art of cyber-knights wearing gloves yet using psi-swords so obviously you don't need constant flesh contact. If the psi-sword disappears at a certain distance from the flesh of a knight I'll need to know where you found that distance.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:17 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
I don't see what would prevent an energy blade from being put into a sheath/scabbard. You would just need to have something adhere to the physical handle to hold it in place. Drawing simply means manipulating a handle to remove the blade from the confines.

Unless you're arguing you need to have sheathed a weapon to be able to use sword chi, I'm not seeing where you think sheathability comes into this. You can build a sheath around the dimensions of any weapon.

Reading this as a more complete thought...

    Characters with Sword Chi should have a favorite weapon that can be
    drawn and used with Sword Chi instantly,
    without any other preparation.

This is not talking about how the power works, it is a tactical recommendation. It simply assumes most people sheath their weapons, and says it's a good idea if that (grabbing your weapon) is all the prep time you need. Because otherwise....


    anytime the character wants to switch from the usual blade (even in mid-combat), it will take one full melee round of concentration before the character can invoke Sword Chi with the secondary sword

Thus the "other preparation" which is not "instantly".

Quote:
As to their not being able to be set down, well, why do you think that they can't be thrown?

Where's that from again, the FAQ?

I've seen some art of cyber-knights wearing gloves yet using psi-swords so obviously you don't need constant flesh contact. If the psi-sword disappears at a certain distance from the flesh of a knight I'll need to know where you found that distance.
The preparation isn't just a melee of concentration. It is spending at least a week practicing with any new sword and then giving the sword a unique name! Only THEN can you switch from the usual blade to a standby blade by spending a full melee round concentrating.

So even if Sword-Chi could be used with a non-physical blade, you need to practice with the blade for a week. That means maintaining the same Psi-sword for a week, naming it, and then never dispelling it if you want to use Sword-Chi with it, because it's a new psi-sword every time (and thus would take a week of practice again after every dispelling). So if you have a Cyber-Knight who doesn't ever need to sleep (because I don't buy being able to maintain a psi-sword while still sleeping) and is willing to walk around always armed, you might have an argument.

That a Psi-Sword can't be thrown is in the description of the power on page 64 of RUE.


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:02 pm
  

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Within the context of the MC setting the Sword Chi power needs a physical sword for it to work.
Remember the culture of the area and the time in history when these powers would of been developed. All the martial artists were using physical blades. So unless, like with the triad assassin MAF, someone develops a chi power that can be used with mystic immaterial blades the current Sword Chi chi power can't be used anything but physical blades.

To you rules lawyers, Yes, I am talking about context that is not written into the books because there is too :crane: much of it to write into any one book. (Any history of any one place is too much to write into one book. Yet alone when you are talking about chinese history. Which their written records goes back to before when the Israelites invaded Palestine after leaving Egypt.) Movies to fill out your ability to set thing into chinese MA context would be things like 'Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon'. So fill out your knowledge of the context in which the MC book was written about before :badbad: about the context not being in the MC book.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:23 am
  

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dreicunan wrote:
So even if Sword-Chi could be used with a non-physical blade, you need to practice with the blade for a week. That means maintaining the same Psi-sword for a week, naming it, and then never dispelling it if you want to use Sword-Chi with it, because it's a new psi-sword every time (and thus would take a week of practice again after every dispelling).

Yes, since they "create" it every time, I agree with you.

dreicunan wrote:
So if you have a Cyber-Knight who doesn't ever need to sleep (because I don't buy being able to maintain a psi-sword while still sleeping) and is willing to walk around always armed, you might have an argument.

Please show me the rule which says active psi powers automatically expire if the user falls asleep.

RUE p 65: "Maintaining its creation into subsequent melee ruonds is automatic and effortless for the Cyber-Knight"

The only problem I can see is with maintaining a pure-white sword since that costs 1 action/round which you presumably couldn't expend while sleeping.

181's "knocked unconscious, the weapon's disappears" is only for the super psi. I can't even find this mentioned for the cyber-knight ability, much less SLEEP also causing deactivation.

I believe a Mind Melter could fall asleep and have their sword remain active. Sleep is not unconsciousness.

dreicunan wrote:
That a Psi-Sword can't be thrown is in the description of the power on page 64 of RUE.

Ah, "Psi-weapons cannot be thrown", forgot bout that. Was on SOT4p24 too, guessing that was where it was introduced. I can see why this would be necessary for the Cyber-Knight since they don't pay ISP and so could have unlimited throwing weapons. Perhaps SOT added this because people were doing this?

Anything preventing the super psi or the Duelist CC's sword from being thrown? Doesn't seem unbalancing since they do pay ISP.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Within the context of the MC setting the Sword Chi power needs a physical sword for it to work.
Remember the culture of the area and the time in history when these powers would of been developed.
All the martial artists were using physical blades.
So unless, like with the triad assassin MAF, someone develops a chi power that can be used with mystic immaterial blades the current Sword Chi chi power can't be used anything but physical blades.

Page 164 of Ninjas and Superspies, Wujcik wrote "Psionic characters from Heroes Unlimited can select ONE martial art form". He would have the possibility of how Psionics interact with Martial Arts Techniques in mind when writing new ones for Mystic China.

Page 142 of Mystic China includes the Hu Fen Pao White Lead Leopard demon who has the full range of psionic abilities and Pg 144 also has "all psionic abilities" as an option for 1/36 Ushers and 1/120 normal Infernals. This shows he was still thinking of them.

Page 160's description doesn't mention anything about "physical" swords and this is not a setting which can make such assumptions. The book itself has examples of how you can have "chi aspect" weapons (pages 75 and 154) so if you couldn't use SCT with FOWC aspects, that's something Wujcik would've pointed out.

Otherwise, you couldn't use SCT when taking chi-aspect swords to places like hell or the jade emperor's realm, or when battling negative chi entities using Mind Walk. It would be a very severe limitation and one of these possibilities would've occurred to Wujcik, since he already mentioned objects filled with chi under SCT.


Last edited by Axelmania on Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:45 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
So if you have a Cyber-Knight who doesn't ever need to sleep (because I don't buy being able to maintain a psi-sword while still sleeping) and is willing to walk around always armed, you might have an argument.

Please show me the rule which says active psi powers automatically expire if the user falls asleep.

RUE p 65: "Maintaining its creation into subsequent melee ruonds is automatic and effortless for the Cyber-Knight"

The only problem I can see is with maintaining a pure-white sword since that costs 1 action/round which you presumably couldn't expend while sleeping.

181's "knocked unconscious, the weapon's disappears" is only for the super psi. I can't even find this mentioned for the cyber-knight ability, much less SLEEP also causing deactivation.

I believe a Mind Melter could fall asleep and have their sword remain active. Sleep is not unconsciousness.
Show me the rule that says a power you need to maintain can be maintained while you sleep! To me this is just an application of common sense. As I said before, automatic does not mean autonomic!

Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
That a Psi-Sword can't be thrown is in the description of the power on page 64 of RUE.

Ah, "Psi-weapons cannot be thrown", forgot bout that. Was on SOT4p24 too, guessing that was where it was introduced. I can see why this would be necessary for the Cyber-Knight since they don't pay ISP and so could have unlimited throwing weapons. Perhaps SOT added this because people were doing this?

Anything preventing the super psi or the Duelist CC's sword from being thrown? Doesn't seem unbalancing since they do pay ISP.

Just common sense to me: if the energy blade could be thrown, it would have been mentioned (after all, how far can you throw "energy"). That and the fact that the Super-Psi power is range: self, and there is no indication that the duelist's version differs in this regard


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:25 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Within the context of the MC setting the Sword Chi power needs a physical sword for it to work.
Remember the culture of the area and the time in history when these powers would of been developed.
All the martial artists were using physical blades.
So unless, like with the triad assassin MAF, someone develops a chi power that can be used with mystic immaterial blades the current Sword Chi chi power can't be used anything but physical blades.

Page 164 of Ninjas and Superspies, Wujcik wrote "Psionic characters from Heroes Unlimited can select ONE martial art form". He would have the possibility of how Psionics interact with Martial Arts Techniques in mind when writing new ones for Mystic China.

Page 142 of Mystic China includes the Hu Fen Pao White Lead Leopard demon who has the full range of psionic abilities and Pg 144 also has "all psionic abilities" as an option for 1/36 Ushers and 1/120 normal Infernals. This shows he was still thinking of them.

Page 160's description doesn't mention anything about "physical" swords and this is not a setting which can make such assumptions. The book itself has examples of how you can have "chi aspect" weapons (pages 75 and 154) so if you couldn't use SCT with FOWC aspects, that's something Wujcik would've pointed out.

Otherwise, you couldn't use SCT when taking chi-aspect swords to places like hell or the jade emperor's realm, or when battling negative chi entities using Mind Walk. It would be a very severe limitation and one of these possibilities would've occurred to Wujcik, since he already mentioned objects filled with chi under SCT.

Since you are ignoring the Deep Context of the MC book you are wrong in assuming that the sword chi power does not need a physical blade. You are just trying to make tangental connections that don't come together to stitch together your arguments for what you want to do. This is because you are only looking at the surface meanings of the texts.

As in you are not looking at the context that the book is being written about a specific culture and beliefs within that culture. I did suggest a movie that is relevant to the discussion that seams to have been ignored. Even the movie "Big Trouble in Little China" has some relevance to learning the Chinese Martial Artists culture and beliefs.

⁍N&S page 164 has nothing to do with this topic. It only says it is optional for a HU1 Psychic can take a MAF. Yep, the HU optional rules in the N&S book are written about the First Edition Heroes Unlimited Power Cats. And.....HU2 has text that specifically changed the optional rules about including N&S/MC MAFs.
⁍MC page 142 has nothing to do with this topic. It stated that particular infernal's abilities. And is cherry picking exceptions to make your point.
MC page 160 does not include any psychic powers within what was said because psychic abilities are not a part of the core concepts of the N&S and MC setting. ((yes, there are exception to this....but they are exceptions. Not core ideas.)) So including any text about psychic interactions, outside the canon "they don't interact", with chi powers would only 1) clutter up the text, and 2) be within any conversion notes. Since there are no conversion notes in the MC text talking about the Sword Chi MAT, your assertions are outside what canon says, or even suggests.

Remember the most comprehensive texts about converting N&S and MC to other current canon settings are found in the rifters. However, they are mostly concerned with converting to Pre-RGMG Rifts, and PF2.

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
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Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:54 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
So even if Sword-Chi could be used with a non-physical blade, you need to practice with the blade for a week. That means maintaining the same Psi-sword for a week, naming it, and then never dispelling it if you want to use Sword-Chi with it, because it's a new psi-sword every time (and thus would take a week of practice again after every dispelling).

Yes, since they "create" it every time, I agree with you.

dreicunan wrote:
So if you have a Cyber-Knight who doesn't ever need to sleep (because I don't buy being able to maintain a psi-sword while still sleeping) and is willing to walk around always armed, you might have an argument.

Please show me the rule which says active psi powers automatically expire if the user falls asleep.

RUE p 65: "Maintaining its creation into subsequent melee ruonds is automatic and effortless for the Cyber-Knight"

The only problem I can see is with maintaining a pure-white sword since that costs 1 action/round which you presumably couldn't expend while sleeping.

181's "knocked unconscious, the weapon's disappears" is only for the super psi. I can't even find this mentioned for the cyber-knight ability, much less SLEEP also causing deactivation.

I believe a Mind Melter could fall asleep and have their sword remain active. Sleep is not unconsciousness.

dreicunan wrote:
That a Psi-Sword can't be thrown is in the description of the power on page 64 of RUE.

Ah, "Psi-weapons cannot be thrown", forgot bout that. Was on SOT4p24 too, guessing that was where it was introduced. I can see why this would be necessary for the Cyber-Knight since they don't pay ISP and so could have unlimited throwing weapons. Perhaps SOT added this because people were doing this?

Anything preventing the super psi or the Duelist CC's sword from being thrown? Doesn't seem unbalancing since they do pay ISP.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Within the context of the MC setting the Sword Chi power needs a physical sword for it to work.
Remember the culture of the area and the time in history when these powers would of been developed.
All the martial artists were using physical blades.
So unless, like with the triad assassin MAF, someone develops a chi power that can be used with mystic immaterial blades the current Sword Chi chi power can't be used anything but physical blades.

Page 164 of Ninjas and Superspies, Wujcik wrote "Psionic characters from Heroes Unlimited can select ONE martial art form". He would have the possibility of how Psionics interact with Martial Arts Techniques in mind when writing new ones for Mystic China.

Page 142 of Mystic China includes the Hu Fen Pao White Lead Leopard demon who has the full range of psionic abilities and Pg 144 also has "all psionic abilities" as an option for 1/36 Ushers and 1/120 normal Infernals. This shows he was still thinking of them.

Page 160's description doesn't mention anything about "physical" swords and this is not a setting which can make such assumptions. The book itself has examples of how you can have "chi aspect" weapons (pages 75 and 154) so if you couldn't use SCT with FOWC aspects, that's something Wujcik would've pointed out.

Otherwise, you couldn't use SCT when taking chi-aspect swords to places like hell or the jade emperor's realm, or when battling negative chi entities using Mind Walk. It would be a very severe limitation and one of these possibilities would've occurred to Wujcik, since he already mentioned objects filled with chi under SCT.


Well since you seem to be suddenly wanting to quote rules from N&S again why don't you flip on over to page 166 and reread that Q&A part I quoted above about how chi and psionics operate on different planes and they don't interact?


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:02 am
  

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dreicunan wrote:
Show me the rule that says a power you need to maintain can be maintained while you sleep! To me this is just an application of common sense. As I said before, automatic does not mean autonomic!

What is your definition of "a power you need to maintain"?

I would say that any power which specifically says it requires conscious focus to keep the duration in effect, or which has an ongoing cost like pure white swords.

What powers did you have in mind whose durations you think would expire upon sleep? Do you have any you think could remain in effect during sleep?

dreicunan wrote:
Just common sense to me: if the energy blade could be thrown, it would have been mentioned

Not every potential use of a power is necessarily mentioned. Being able to use Telekinetic Force Field to cause car crashes for example.

dreicunan wrote:
(after all, how far can you throw "energy")

According to RUE p 328 awkward items like swords can be thrown 20 feet. Strangely the weight of the sword or the PS of the character doesn't seem to matter.

dreicunan wrote:
That and the fact that the Super-Psi power is range: self, and there is no indication that the duelist's version differs in this regard

Range is generally understood to mean the range when the power begins, not that you need to remain in that range to keep the power in effect.

Or do you think if you use Bio-Manipulation at 150 feet then move to 200 feet the person is instantly fine because you're no longer within 160ft?

Increased Healing has a 3ft range, and while it makes sense that you'd need to stay that close to the one you're healing for the 1D6 hour activation trance, I don't believe you also need to stay within 3ft to maintain the increased healing for the next 2D4 days.

Same with Induce Sleep's 6ft range: that's for the 2 minute prep, not for the 1hour/level sleep.

This is also clearly how Mentally Possess Others works, you touch to begin the power, but you don't need to maintain touch between your bodies to maintain it.

The Beast wrote:
Well since you seem to be suddenly wanting to quote rules from N&S again why don't you flip on over to page 166 and reread that Q&A part I quoted above about how chi and psionics operate on different planes and they don't interact?

It does say they exist on different planes, but it doesn't say chi and psionics never interact: it just gives examples of some powers which do not:
    a character using the psionic power of Astral Projection will never interact with a Martial Artist using Mind Walk Zenjorike power
    Chi passes through magic or psionic shields
    magic passes through psionic or Chi defenses
    psionic attacks pass through Chi or magic blocks
    Someone with the super power of Invisibility is still detectable with Chi, Psionic, or Magical detection
    magical invisibility is detectable by Chi or Psionic means
    Psionics have no special save against Chi attacks,
    Chi masters have no special save against psionics,
    or against powers like Control (Others) and Transferal/Possession.

That's it. Projection v. Mindwalk, some kinds of chi/magic/psi passing through certain shields/defenses/blocks, chi/magic/psi being able to detect people who are invisible (nothing new there) and no special saves between psi and chi....

That last bit of course being kinda contradicted by 163's "Mind Block is an absolute defense against any offensive Chi combat" which is better than a save since it is an automatic success.

It said nothing about being unable to use chi powers to amplify psychic weapons or spells to amplify chi weapons or whatever.

"magic passes through psionic defenses" is an interesting statement though. Would this mean Firebolt can't be stopped by Telekinetic Force Field?


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:25 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Show me the rule that says a power you need to maintain can be maintained while you sleep! To me this is just an application of common sense. As I said before, automatic does not mean autonomic!

What is your definition of "a power you need to maintain"?

I would say that any power which specifically says it requires conscious focus to keep the duration in effect, or which has an ongoing cost like pure white swords.

What powers did you have in mind whose durations you think would expire upon sleep? Do you have any you think could remain in effect during sleep?

I'm not interested in expanding the discussion to other powers at the moment, because the issue at hand here is the Psi-sword. More to the point here is the sentence "Maintaining its creation into subsequent melee rounds is automatic and effortless for the Cyber-Knight." That is the concluding line of the paragraph describing how much effort it takes to create a Psi-weapon. Now, you might says "That is after the sentence stating that it takes a melee action to create a weapon other than a sword, so only those need to be maintained," but then we read that brilliant, pure white is "the only color that continues to burn up one melee action every round to maintain." Meaning that the other colors do not cost an action to maintain, but not that they don't have to be maintained! The lack of an ongoing cost expressed in game terms doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be maintained, just that it is free to do so from an actions per melee perspective. I'd also point out that it is a weapon that must be "willed" into existence. To will it into being is a conscious act. It beggars belief to suggest that keeping it around is somehow NOT a conscious act of will!

It's a blade of energy whose existence is maintained by the force of will of the creator. It isn't a power that creates an effect that sticks around without the creators will (hence why it disappears when you go unconscious). It isn't an energy blade created with a physical hilt. The whole thing is energy. You aren't throwing the blade; you can't hand it off to anyone else. I suppose that if you want to be mega-munchkinish about this, you could have your knight make the longest blade (or pike) known to the universe and wack people from a mile (or a 100 miles) away since I'm not seeing an actual limitation to the length or size of the psi-weapon anywhere, though that seems against the spirit of the power. Heck, start extending it right through the core of the planet or stab the moon!


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 Post subject: Re: Sword-Chi
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:26 pm
  

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Since this is the HU forum the Canon ranges for this conversation about throwing stuff are on page 54 of the HUGMG. Which does differentiate between the types of PS.

Comparing the two lists noted in RUE and the HUGMG, the RUE list conforms mostly to the normal human PS in the HUGMG.
----------
"magic passes through psionic defenses" is an interesting statement though. Would this mean Firebolt can't be stopped by Telekinetic Force Field?
I would consult the rules about force fields of the setting that was being talked about before answering this.

For while it 'appears' that in the N&S/MC setting that this is possible, there are other rules that say it does not happen in other settings.
Esspecilly in the Rifts/3G settings. Where the rules are that !Nothing! can 'bypass/slip through' a force field of any type.

_________________
Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

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