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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:31 pm
  

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Virtuoso of Variants

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Comment: "Your inferiority complex might be justified."
Magic and psionics are not popular with my players because they involve keeping track of points. They prefer powers which can be used as needed with almost no math involved. As a GM, I don't mind it, but neither is it used that extensively.

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"SG is a variant machine. It slices, it dices, it whatever else that ryhmes in that scheme, its the SG Variant Power-O-Matic Machine." ~ wolfsgrin
"SG, you are a limitless fountain of Butt-Saving Advice. You Rock, Stone and Concrete." ~ TrumbachD
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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:02 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Magic and psionics are not popular with my players because they involve keeping track of points. They prefer powers which can be used as needed with almost no math involved. As a GM, I don't mind it, but neither is it used that extensively.

Doesn't mean that the inclusion of magic is wrong though.
Nor does it mean that adding magic to HU was some sort of token "they added magic to make the game Megaversal/the added magic as a token nod to the phrase unlimited"
It just means that your players don't want to keep track of points. No more no less.
They are entirely different kettles of fish.
The first is a statement of how the game IS. The second is a statement of how your particular group of players prefer to play. UTTERLY different things.

And for the record I would say that the claim that magic needs to be totally re-written so that it doesn't need those points and that until it does so its useless is flat out wrong.
The magic system we have right now may not be what a specific group desires in their particular game. But unless people are able to realize that this is not "The best game system for me personally and if it doesn't do exactly what I want then it is wrong" then discussions like this just become ego contests where people show up, preach to everyone how they are Playing It Wrong, and condescend to tell them how to correct their games so that they can play correctly.
And yes, I see that a LOT in here. I saw it in this thread, I saw it in the power stunts thread, I see it in virtually every discussion about 'fixing' any part of the game. Too many people can't separate "what I want" from "what the game needs"

The Palladium universe has magic.
That is a flat, non-negotiable given.
The entire Palladium Megaverse has magic operate a certain way. That way is the reason that they changed magic in HU2. To reflect that it was being brought in line with how magic now operates in the Megaverse as a whole since the previous system was how magic operated at the time it was introduced.
Which is why I would like to reiterate that the calls for re-writing the magic system so that it 'works better' and 'represents the right way to play' are Not Going To Happen. The Palladium games are designed to be compatible with each other with a minimum of conversion. Its that whole "compatible with the entire Megaverse" thing. This is a deliberate feature not a bug. Making the HU game have a unique and totally incompatible magic system is going the opposite direction. Frankly one of the reasons that N&SS is not getting any more material is that it isn't very compatible with the rest of the game. Why would Palladium do that to one of their better selling lines? Why would the fans of the Heroes line WANT them to kill off/damage the HU line by deliberately making it no longer compatible with the rest of the Megaverse?

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Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:40 am
  

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Knight

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A suggestion for a MU book would be small upgradables from the megaverse at large. Not revamping the whole spell caster, but adding more flavor along with more classes and spells. I'm talking little things that many people already bring into HU like 1-6 Atlantean tats, minor/major pyschics, minor talismans and so on. I've always treated things like the above similar to upgrades for Mega Heroes.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:39 am
  

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Explorer

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In the intro to the revised heroes unlimited Kevin said that when asked about why the original heroes unlimited had no magic he replied "I personally dislike magic in superhero comicbooks so I didnt put it in my game." But after receiving numerous letters about it he decided to give in and include it. This could explain why very little has been done with it.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:16 am
  

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Priest

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
I admit I've found that if you make the power pool regen faster it helps a lot, you still can't have your mage or psychic toss everything at their problems all day, but it makes it so you're not looking at having to spend 5 hours to recoup the loss for one summoning of the power and let's you have the versatility of a broader range of abilities.


Daniel Stoker

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:03 am
  

Knight

Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 2:01 am
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I hope they will have Magic items and Weapons.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:14 pm
  

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Virtuoso of Variants

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Comment: "Your inferiority complex might be justified."
gaby wrote:
I hope they will have Magic items and Weapons.
Wouldn't that then make it Alchemy Unlimited?

_________________
"SG is a variant machine. It slices, it dices, it whatever else that ryhmes in that scheme, its the SG Variant Power-O-Matic Machine." ~ wolfsgrin
"SG, you are a limitless fountain of Butt-Saving Advice. You Rock, Stone and Concrete." ~ TrumbachD
http://wiki.thedeificnmi.com


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:23 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
gaby wrote:
I hope they will have Magic items and Weapons.
Wouldn't that then make it Alchemy Unlimited?

No
Alchemist is an OCC in PF, that is one of the sources of magic items.
Note that Alchemists are not the only source of magic items, nor are magic items always made through alchemy. Also note that they are magic items. And of course there is the fact that the main magic items in HU are not produced by Alchemy anyway.

So no, a book on magic can be safely assumed to have, well, magic in it.
Its not like its 'spells unlimited' or something.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:00 pm
  

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Virtuoso of Variants

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Comment: "Your inferiority complex might be justified."
eliakon wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
gaby wrote:
I hope they will have Magic items and Weapons.
Wouldn't that then make it Alchemy Unlimited?

No
Alchemist is an OCC in PF, that is one of the sources of magic items.
Note that Alchemists are not the only source of magic items, nor are magic items always made through alchemy. Also note that they are magic items. And of course there is the fact that the main magic items in HU are not produced by Alchemy anyway.

So no, a book on magic can be safely assumed to have, well, magic in it.
Its not like its 'spells unlimited' or something.
Dude, calm down. I was making a joke.
There is actually nothing written about where magic items and weapons come from in HU2. So one cannot assume one way or the other whether alchemy is involved.

_________________
"SG is a variant machine. It slices, it dices, it whatever else that ryhmes in that scheme, its the SG Variant Power-O-Matic Machine." ~ wolfsgrin
"SG, you are a limitless fountain of Butt-Saving Advice. You Rock, Stone and Concrete." ~ TrumbachD
http://wiki.thedeificnmi.com


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:14 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
gaby wrote:
I hope they will have Magic items and Weapons.
Wouldn't that then make it Alchemy Unlimited?

No
Alchemist is an OCC in PF, that is one of the sources of magic items.
Note that Alchemists are not the only source of magic items, nor are magic items always made through alchemy. Also note that they are magic items. And of course there is the fact that the main magic items in HU are not produced by Alchemy anyway.

So no, a book on magic can be safely assumed to have, well, magic in it.
Its not like its 'spells unlimited' or something.
Dude, calm down. I was making a joke.
There is actually nothing written about where magic items and weapons come from in HU2. So one cannot assume one way or the other whether alchemy is involved.

Well other than the HU2 core book says that the Mystic Weapons are rune weapons.
And Alchemists are not involved in Rune Magic in any way.
I think that this was a silly thing to do, and I personally throw it out in my games, but officially all the weapons are rune weapons :?

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:02 pm
  

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Virtuoso of Variants

Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:18 pm
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Location: Lurking on rooftops like a proper gargoyle should, in and around Tacoma, WA.
Comment: "Your inferiority complex might be justified."
eliakon wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
There is actually nothing written about where magic items and weapons come from in HU2. So one cannot assume one way or the other whether alchemy is involved.

Well other than the HU2 core book says that the Mystic Weapons are rune weapons.
And Alchemists are not involved in Rune Magic in any way.
I think that this was a silly thing to do, and I personally throw it out in my games, but officially all the weapons are rune weapons :?
Okay, I stand corrected. So all the weapons granting powers are rune weapons. That does seem silly.

_________________
"SG is a variant machine. It slices, it dices, it whatever else that ryhmes in that scheme, its the SG Variant Power-O-Matic Machine." ~ wolfsgrin
"SG, you are a limitless fountain of Butt-Saving Advice. You Rock, Stone and Concrete." ~ TrumbachD
http://wiki.thedeificnmi.com


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:11 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:11 pm
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Stone Gargoyle wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
There is actually nothing written about where magic items and weapons come from in HU2. So one cannot assume one way or the other whether alchemy is involved.

Well other than the HU2 core book says that the Mystic Weapons are rune weapons.
And Alchemists are not involved in Rune Magic in any way.
I think that this was a silly thing to do, and I personally throw it out in my games, but officially all the weapons are rune weapons :?
Okay, I stand corrected. So all the weapons granting powers are rune weapons. That does seem silly.


Actually... when one thinks about it... in a low magic world like HU Earth, such lesser magical weapons and items have likely seen their enchantments weaken as magic began to fade. Only the most powerful of magical weapons... such as legendary Rune Weapons, have enchantments strong enough to weather the weakening of magic in general on such a world... let alone empower an owner to such a degree that becoming a Super Hero or Villain is even considered.

You see the same thing happening with practitioners of magic... while the Mystic Study character is still fairly powerful... and his spells cost no more than before, he still has a smaller reserve of PPE energy than say a Line Walker from Rifts Earth (about double the base PPE potential of a Mystic Study character) or even the Wizard of Palladium Fantasy (who has a PPE base potential about 40% higher). True, the Mystic Study character still has a higher base than say the Sorcerers of the Nightbane Dimension... but with magic on the rise in that dimension, that could change in a generation or two as magic becomes more common.

Of course, a Magic Unlimited sourcebook could expand the options of Mystic Weapon users to include such lesser weapons. Much like how adventurers from Palladium Fantasy are likely to acquire an assortment of enchanted weapons of limited power (two or three weapons and maybe a suit of armor... most with only 1 or 2 enchantments each), so too could there be a Mystic Weapon variant where his power comes from owning a few such items (though likely with only 1 power or ability per weapon). Of course, this could also be a vulnerability... as such a hero would loose any powers that such a weapon possesses... and with more minor weapons owned... the more he has to keep track of (and it is possible that anyone could access such powers... something that isn't often a problem with the more powerful Mystic Weapon user).

That is why a Magic Unlimited Sourcebook would be a good choice... to expand the options of arguably the oldest source of power on HU Earth... before technology... possibly before even psionics or mutation... magic was possibly the first source of power for Heroes. Who knows what mystic secrets lay buried in the past that could be a new source of power for Heroes and Villains alike?

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:35 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Razorwing wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
There is actually nothing written about where magic items and weapons come from in HU2. So one cannot assume one way or the other whether alchemy is involved.

Well other than the HU2 core book says that the Mystic Weapons are rune weapons.
And Alchemists are not involved in Rune Magic in any way.
I think that this was a silly thing to do, and I personally throw it out in my games, but officially all the weapons are rune weapons :?
Okay, I stand corrected. So all the weapons granting powers are rune weapons. That does seem silly.


Actually... when one thinks about it... in a low magic world like HU Earth, such lesser magical weapons and items have likely seen their enchantments weaken as magic began to fade. Only the most powerful of magical weapons... such as legendary Rune Weapons, have enchantments strong enough to weather the weakening of magic in general on such a world... let alone empower an owner to such a degree that becoming a Super Hero or Villain is even considered.

You see the same thing happening with practitioners of magic... while the Mystic Study character is still fairly powerful... and his spells cost no more than before, he still has a smaller reserve of PPE energy than say a Line Walker from Rifts Earth (about double the base PPE potential of a Mystic Study character) or even the Wizard of Palladium Fantasy (who has a PPE base potential about 40% higher). True, the Mystic Study character still has a higher base than say the Sorcerers of the Nightbane Dimension... but with magic on the rise in that dimension, that could change in a generation or two as magic becomes more common.

Of course, a Magic Unlimited sourcebook could expand the options of Mystic Weapon users to include such lesser weapons. Much like how adventurers from Palladium Fantasy are likely to acquire an assortment of enchanted weapons of limited power (two or three weapons and maybe a suit of armor... most with only 1 or 2 enchantments each), so too could there be a Mystic Weapon variant where his power comes from owning a few such items (though likely with only 1 power or ability per weapon). Of course, this could also be a vulnerability... as such a hero would loose any powers that such a weapon possesses... and with more minor weapons owned... the more he has to keep track of (and it is possible that anyone could access such powers... something that isn't often a problem with the more powerful Mystic Weapon user).

That is why a Magic Unlimited Sourcebook would be a good choice... to expand the options of arguably the oldest source of power on HU Earth... before technology... possibly before even psionics or mutation... magic was possibly the first source of power for Heroes. Who knows what mystic secrets lay buried in the past that could be a new source of power for Heroes and Villains alike?

I stand by my silly
It is silly because making them Rune weapons is silly
There are other things they could have been that are just as potent. Not everything has to be a rune weapon. But to often the go to has been "Oh lets make it rune" and thus it has gone from a rare lost art to one of the mainstays of the Megaverse
It could have been:
A Legendary Fetish
A Greatest Artifact of the Nightlands
A Unique Artifact (Like several of the objects in Palladium)
I could go on...
Why just Rune?
Its silly and limiting.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:14 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:11 pm
Posts: 982
eliakon wrote:
Razorwing wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
There is actually nothing written about where magic items and weapons come from in HU2. So one cannot assume one way or the other whether alchemy is involved.

Well other than the HU2 core book says that the Mystic Weapons are rune weapons.
And Alchemists are not involved in Rune Magic in any way.
I think that this was a silly thing to do, and I personally throw it out in my games, but officially all the weapons are rune weapons :?
Okay, I stand corrected. So all the weapons granting powers are rune weapons. That does seem silly.


Actually... when one thinks about it... in a low magic world like HU Earth, such lesser magical weapons and items have likely seen their enchantments weaken as magic began to fade. Only the most powerful of magical weapons... such as legendary Rune Weapons, have enchantments strong enough to weather the weakening of magic in general on such a world... let alone empower an owner to such a degree that becoming a Super Hero or Villain is even considered.

You see the same thing happening with practitioners of magic... while the Mystic Study character is still fairly powerful... and his spells cost no more than before, he still has a smaller reserve of PPE energy than say a Line Walker from Rifts Earth (about double the base PPE potential of a Mystic Study character) or even the Wizard of Palladium Fantasy (who has a PPE base potential about 40% higher). True, the Mystic Study character still has a higher base than say the Sorcerers of the Nightbane Dimension... but with magic on the rise in that dimension, that could change in a generation or two as magic becomes more common.

Of course, a Magic Unlimited sourcebook could expand the options of Mystic Weapon users to include such lesser weapons. Much like how adventurers from Palladium Fantasy are likely to acquire an assortment of enchanted weapons of limited power (two or three weapons and maybe a suit of armor... most with only 1 or 2 enchantments each), so too could there be a Mystic Weapon variant where his power comes from owning a few such items (though likely with only 1 power or ability per weapon). Of course, this could also be a vulnerability... as such a hero would loose any powers that such a weapon possesses... and with more minor weapons owned... the more he has to keep track of (and it is possible that anyone could access such powers... something that isn't often a problem with the more powerful Mystic Weapon user).

That is why a Magic Unlimited Sourcebook would be a good choice... to expand the options of arguably the oldest source of power on HU Earth... before technology... possibly before even psionics or mutation... magic was possibly the first source of power for Heroes. Who knows what mystic secrets lay buried in the past that could be a new source of power for Heroes and Villains alike?

I stand by my silly
It is silly because making them Rune weapons is silly
There are other things they could have been that are just as potent. Not everything has to be a rune weapon. But to often the go to has been "Oh lets make it rune" and thus it has gone from a rare lost art to one of the mainstays of the Megaverse
It could have been:
A Legendary Fetish
A Greatest Artifact of the Nightlands
A Unique Artifact (Like several of the objects in Palladium)
I could go on...
Why just Rune?
Its silly and limiting.


You have to remember, when HU first came out and the Mystic Weapon category was created... the only mystic weapons that approached the power granted by these weapons were Rune Weapons... so it likely seemed logical to the designers to call these Rune Weapons as well. We also know that Palladium tends to prefer cut and paste rules and descriptions from one source to another... and this is likely another example of such.

Yes, it may seem silly now, 20 years later, when we have more examples of very powerful weapons of similar nature (like the Artifacts of the Nightbane setting)... but that is just another reason to delve into the nature of these weapons. They do clearly have similarities with Rune Weapons... in that most seem to have an intelligence within them that allows them to choose who can and can not use their power. The are also quite distinct from Rune Weapons we are familiar with from Rifts and Palladium Fantasy... in that they can provide actual super powers (something weapons of similar nature do not provide in other settings).

I am inclined to agree with you that they shouldn't be called Rune Weapons as such... but rather Artifacts of a similar nature and power as Rune Weapons (those familiar with Rune Weapons may think they are a variant... which they might be). They have their own intelligence and are nigh invulnerable to destruction... and have a variety of abilities (and maybe even have runes engraved into them)... but just because two things are similar in nature doesn't mean that they are the same thing. In the end, it really doesn't matter... because most such weapons were created in a lost age and most are likely dormant (and who knows how many there actually are).

It is because of things such as this, little things (such as what Mystic Weapons are) that could easily be cleared up with a Magic Unlimited sourcebook that make such a book an interesting idea to pursue.

_________________
There are three types of people in the world; those who can count and those who can't.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:47 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 9122
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Razorwing wrote:
eliakon wrote:
I stand by my silly
It is silly because making them Rune weapons is silly
There are other things they could have been that are just as potent. Not everything has to be a rune weapon. But to often the go to has been "Oh lets make it rune" and thus it has gone from a rare lost art to one of the mainstays of the Megaverse
It could have been:
A Legendary Fetish
A Greatest Artifact of the Nightlands
A Unique Artifact (Like several of the objects in Palladium)
I could go on...
Why just Rune?
Its silly and limiting.


You have to remember, when HU first came out and the Mystic Weapon category was created... the only mystic weapons that approached the power granted by these weapons were Rune Weapons... so it likely seemed logical to the designers to call these Rune Weapons as well. We also know that Palladium tends to prefer cut and paste rules and descriptions from one source to another... and this is likely another example of such.


Yes, it may seem silly now, 20 years later, when we have more examples of very powerful weapons of similar nature (like the Artifacts of the Nightbane setting)... but that is just another reason to delve into the nature of these weapons. They do clearly have similarities with Rune Weapons... in that most seem to have an intelligence within them that allows them to choose who can and can not use their power. The are also quite distinct from Rune Weapons we are familiar with from Rifts and Palladium Fantasy... in that they can provide actual super powers (something weapons of similar nature do not provide in other settings).

The problem with that excuse is that
1) even back then they had several examples of weapons of power that were not rune weapons but that were still objects of vast power.
2) they were only tentatively identified as rune weapons back then. They were "Rune" weapons with the air quotes.
3) and even pointing to powers doesn't do anything as the Greatest Rune Weapons in PF are all unique, weapons that have all sorts of capabilities. While none of them has (yet) granted super powers it would not be out of place. And in PF at least most of the Rune magic secrets are lost. So that even the Dwarves, who made the huge array of mind bogglingly powerful weapons only had a fraction of the lore.


Then when they went to second edition they doubled down. They went from a vague "Rune" to "These are Greatest Rune Weapons"
When they had the chance to go more vague and use the wider options they had (not that they had needed it) they chose to go the other way and narrow it down and clairify that no, indeed these are rune weapons. :?

Razorwing wrote:
I am inclined to agree with you that they shouldn't be called Rune Weapons as such... but rather Artifacts of a similar nature and power as Rune Weapons (those familiar with Rune Weapons may think they are a variant... which they might be). They have their own intelligence and are nigh invulnerable to destruction... and have a variety of abilities (and maybe even have runes engraved into them)... but just because two things are similar in nature doesn't mean that they are the same thing. In the end, it really doesn't matter... because most such weapons were created in a lost age and most are likely dormant (and who knows how many there actually are).

I am of two minds on this
On the up side changing the nature of the weapons so that we can have a wide range of origins is useful (some can stay Rune weapons... while others can become other things)
On the down side retconing the game is not really something that should be done lightly and it makes thing annoying from a canon perspective where in we have now made it so that players who do not have the book have one canon and those that do get a different canon...for the core book!

Razorwing wrote:
It is because of things such as this, little things (such as what Mystic Weapons are) that could easily be cleared up with a Magic Unlimited sourcebook that make such a book an interesting idea to pursue.

I agree that done right the book would be a useful addition to the game.
I am just afraid that it would turn into yet another project where a Freelancer decides to rewrite the game to make the game conform to their head canon, or their personal game, or to insert their favored pet house rule or what ever.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:08 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:11 pm
Posts: 982
eliakon wrote:
Razorwing wrote:
It is because of things such as this, little things (such as what Mystic Weapons are) that could easily be cleared up with a Magic Unlimited sourcebook that make such a book an interesting idea to pursue.

I agree that done right the book would be a useful addition to the game.
I am just afraid that it would turn into yet another project where a Freelancer decides to rewrite the game to make the game conform to their head canon, or their personal game, or to insert their favored pet house rule or what ever.


Well... that is a risk that is sometimes need to be taken. Sometimes change can be a good thing... especially if it expands the possibilities or makes sense. Technically... everything that has been presented in any game was at one point head canon or a house rule for a specific game... but was brought into various games with varying degrees of success.

In the end, it is up to Palladium and Kevin as to what ultimately is published. If he is okay with something... then that will generally be good enough for most people. If you aren't okay with something... then you can change it for your games. Nothing presented in any Palladium game has to be used as presented in your games. Just because something is in an official book doesn't mean it has to be in your games. I am sure we can find a few examples of things presented in one book that are contradicted in another... and both are confirmed in a third.

While some things may be official... everything is optional (especially for your games).

_________________
There are three types of people in the world; those who can count and those who can't.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:55 am
  

Knight

Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 2:01 am
Posts: 4201
Location: Québec
If they make it,they will Update the Magic catagories,Add some New Ones,Covert a Number of Rifts Spells to H.U.
Rules on making Monsters for H.U and Other things.

Maybe some Campaigns ideas too.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:15 pm
  

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gaby wrote:
If they make it,they will Update the Magic catagories,Add some New Ones,Covert a Number of Rifts Spells to H.U.
Rules on making Monsters for H.U and Other things.

Maybe some Campaigns ideas too.
Those are pretty big assumptions. It would be nice if they did those things, but I wouldn't want it to be all cut and pasted material from the Rifts books.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:25 pm
  

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I would like to see something that expands or builds on the minor magic weapons that Immortals can get. The weapons really arent unbalancing, and I can see a Mystic Study, or Super Soldier, (or Mystic Supersoldier), or a Demon Hunter, having such a weapon.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:47 pm
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Razorwing wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Razorwing wrote:
It is because of things such as this, little things (such as what Mystic Weapons are) that could easily be cleared up with a Magic Unlimited sourcebook that make such a book an interesting idea to pursue.

I agree that done right the book would be a useful addition to the game.
I am just afraid that it would turn into yet another project where a Freelancer decides to rewrite the game to make the game conform to their head canon, or their personal game, or to insert their favored pet house rule or what ever.


Well... that is a risk that is sometimes need to be taken. Sometimes change can be a good thing... especially if it expands the possibilities or makes sense. Technically... everything that has been presented in any game was at one point head canon or a house rule for a specific game... but was brought into various games with varying degrees of success.

In the end, it is up to Palladium and Kevin as to what ultimately is published. If he is okay with something... then that will generally be good enough for most people. If you aren't okay with something... then you can change it for your games. Nothing presented in any Palladium game has to be used as presented in your games. Just because something is in an official book doesn't mean it has to be in your games. I am sure we can find a few examples of things presented in one book that are contradicted in another... and both are confirmed in a third.

While some things may be official... everything is optional (especially for your games).

I'm talking stuff like a person looking at the game and saying "nahhh I don't like this. I'm going to tell everyone they have been playing wrong and rewrite the entire game" or "Well this idea I have is cool, so who cares that the game has ruled otherwise for 30 years, I'm changing it"

That is how we get stuff like going back and retconning soulstealing weapons in AU. And proposing to do so, again in this book.

Or rewriting the Raithinor from "a mysterious race that no one knows anything about other than they have these cool magic bio-weapon suits... to They are insane parasites. Oh and no one has ever noticed that the suits eat you. Because the entire galaxy is dumb and only the PCs will ever stumble upon the great secrets.

Or slapping huge new kingdoms that no one ever noticed in the middle of North America.

For this sort of project I am worried that someone is going to decide that this is a great time to decide that magic is really some sort of genetically linked trait that is controlled by genetic mutations, or that they think that the don't like how the PPE system works so they are going to rewrite it to make it 'better' and just toss out PPE and replace it with something else (not as optional rules mind you, but as core 'this is what it has always been)

As a good example of the problem is the argument of people in this thread that were convinced that their house rule of "No aliens can use magic items" meant that it was canon. If one of them was the author I would be afraid that we would see this cast as a rule and suddenly they are rewriting the game to remove entire sets of characters because they don't like them.

The other good example of the problem is the horrible essay in the BoM in rifts on the 'mindset of mages'. Which is possibly the single worst thing in any Palladium book ever. Bar none. It is horrible because it tries to codify as a 'rule' how every mage thinks. Regardless. It make the ludicrous assumption that every mage is some sort of insane lunatic that loathes technology and runs around in cloaks and staves because that's cool. in a world of nerve gas and mecha. Never mind that the Techno-Wizards love technology, turns out they all secretly hate it!

I would LOVE to see a book on magic. I love magic, its my favorite part of the game.
I do not however want to end up with a book where someone is trying to rewrite the entire game to fit their personal house rules.
There is a HUGE difference between "adding material to the game" and "rewriting the game"
If a person can not tell the difference, then IMHO they have no business trying to write for a game.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:31 am
  

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Well... when Heroes Unlimited first came out... there was no PPE system... you could cast only X amount of spells per day... regardless of whether they were as minor as Blinding Flash or as powerful as Sanctuary. It went on like that all the way through the Revised Heroes Unlimited... and only changed with 2nd Edition (if I remember correctly).

Some things... like ley line mechanics... need updating. Currently... ley lines are exactly the same whether on a magic poor world like Heroes Unlimited or a magic rich environment like Rifts Earth. They have the exact same dimensions (1/4 mile wide) no matter how much magic flows through them. If that is true... then if these mystic rivers had so little energy flowing through them before the Great Cataclysm... how did they over flow (and why aren't ley lines even wider in Rifts)? We know from Palladium Fantasy that ley lines can shift or even vanish over time (though it seems less likely to occur at powerful nexus points like Stonehenge and such)... so why can't ley lines be more like raging rivers in Rifts (at 1/4 mile wide or more) and barely a noticeable stream in settings like HU or BtSN (at 1/8 or even 1/16 mile wide or less)? Why not explore just what it means for magic's decline in HU Earth and those categories that rely on such power (could Mystic Weapons and Enchanted Objects eventually be rendered dormant?).

Then there is exploring the mystic history of HU Earth. Out of all the various settings Palladium has created, HU has the most generic and least detailed history. True, for the most part, it is the same history we know of... but that doesn't fully account for the appearance of super humans. While we, as outside observers, may see the myths and legends of our world as early heroes and villains in the HU setting... we still don't see a full picture. Then there are vast portions of history we know nearly nothing about in our world... that could have seen amazing things happen in HU Earth. There could have been an entire Mythic Age where civilizations that would give rise to myths of Atlantis, Lemuria and Mu rose to greatness before falling into obscurity in the modern age. It is possible... even likely that many of the more powerful weapons and objects date back to this mythic time... with lesser magical weapons and objects following (or in rare cases, preceding) this age as the knowledge of making more powerful relics is lost with time (possibly to the point where even minor weapons are no longer able to be made for various reasons). We can even provide a framework for players to game in other eras... like Classical Greek or the Roman era... or the height of Egyptian power... or even further back to the final days of the Mythic Age (however a particular GM wants to portray such an era).

As for new categories of mystic empowerment... well... the "From Ruins to Runes" article in Rifter #52 postulated mystic weapons that can grow in power on their own... living weapons as it were... makes an interesting option... why play someone who merely wields a magic weapon... when you can play that very weapon itself and wield yourself to grow in power. People were not the only things that had mystic power bestowed upon themselves... some wizards and even gods empowered statues and golems to become eternal guardians. How about a return of the Illusionist from Revised Heroes Unlimited... who can cast spells like a Mystic Study character, but they are mostly illusions (though not the slight of hand of the Stage Magician in Special Training). Enchanted Objects definitely need a bit of a power boost... but why do so in the same way as Mystic Weapons or Mystically Bestowed characters were? Expanding the options for mystic weapons and armor of all types (some of which can be used as enchanted objects) is merely the tip of the iceberg.

As for the Soul Stealing retcon from Armageddon Unlimited... that is more for the heroic adventure style that HU lends itself to... rather than the "I WIN" scenario it often turns into in other settings where a character is instantly killed by such weapons from a single scratch. Don't get me wrong... I've played in games where such weapons were used without them becoming such... but those tended to be the exception rather than the rule. Now we have a framework with which to deal with them on a heroic level without lessening the danger such weapons pose to players. Before, if your character didn't make the save vs. magic... he was dead and you had to make a new character. Now, there is a chance to reclaim that soul and restore your character without having to role up a new character. With how attached many players are to their characters... loosing them to a bad role of a single die can be devastating, so this reworking of Soul Stealing weapons can be a good thing. Of course, if you don't like it... you don't have to use it as such.

What you see as a bad thing... others may see as a change for the better... giving them more options to work with. In the end however... it is merely an additional book for players and GMs to use as they see fit... taking what they like and discarding what they don't. Perhaps somethings will be retconed in ways you don't like... but in ways others find works for them. Are you so important that you have to have the book please you first and everyone else second (not an attack on you personally... but on the attitude that what one person enjoys is more important than what others might enjoy).

A Magic Unlimited sourcebook will likely have material some will find stupid and irrelevant... and complain that it should never have seen print, but by the same token, it may have some material others enjoy and use for their games. Sourcebooks like this should try to please as many types of people as possible while recognizing that it will never please everyone. No sourcebook can please everyone all the time with everything it presents, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:01 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Razorwing wrote:
Well... when Heroes Unlimited first came out... there was no PPE system... you could cast only X amount of spells per day... regardless of whether they were as minor as Blinding Flash or as powerful as Sanctuary. It went on like that all the way through the Revised Heroes Unlimited... and only changed with 2nd Edition (if I remember correctly).

Some things... like ley line mechanics... need updating.

See I beg to differ.
I don't think that the game needs to be rewritten and retconned because some people don't like how it works.
Razorwing wrote:
Currently... ley lines are exactly the same whether on a magic poor world like Heroes Unlimited or a magic rich environment like Rifts Earth.

No, they have differences. They are not massive differences, but they do exist.

Razorwing wrote:
They have the exact same dimensions (1/4 mile wide) no matter how much magic flows through them.

Yes? So?
Spell ranges don't change based on worlds why should the range at which you can tap a zero-point feature like a ley line?

Razorwing wrote:
If that is true... then if these mystic rivers had so little energy flowing through them before the Great Cataclysm... how did they over flow (and why aren't ley lines even wider in Rifts)? We know from Palladium Fantasy that ley lines can shift or even vanish over time (though it seems less likely to occur at powerful nexus points like Stonehenge and such)... so why can't ley lines be more like raging rivers in Rifts (at 1/4 mile wide or more) and barely a noticeable stream in settings like HU or BtSN (at 1/8 or even 1/16 mile wide or less)? Why not explore just what it means for magic's decline in HU Earth and those categories that rely on such power (could Mystic Weapons and Enchanted Objects eventually be rendered dormant?).

THIS is what I am talking about.
Rewritting the game because a person feels that the actual game rules are bad and their personal idea is soooo much cooler.
In the actual, as written game, ley lines are a focus for the flow of magical energy in the world.
For most ley lines that defined as basically a theoretical line of PPE. The energy of the line is avaliabel to be tapped for approximately a half mile around that line. That is the 'range' of the magic and just like spell distance is not variant.
In certain extraordinary circumstances (i.e. cosmicly unique events that have been replicated only a couple of times in the last billion years in all of the dimensions) this can be varied.
Changing this because someone thinks it would be 'interesting' is the sort of thing I think is a HORRIBLE idea.

Razorwing wrote:
Then there is exploring the mystic history of HU Earth. Out of all the various settings Palladium has created, HU has the most generic and least detailed history. True, for the most part, it is the same history we know of... but that doesn't fully account for the appearance of super humans. While we, as outside observers, may see the myths and legends of our world as early heroes and villains in the HU setting... we still don't see a full picture. Then there are vast portions of history we know nearly nothing about in our world... that could have seen amazing things happen in HU Earth. There could have been an entire Mythic Age where civilizations that would give rise to myths of Atlantis, Lemuria and Mu rose to greatness before falling into obscurity in the modern age. It is possible... even likely that many of the more powerful weapons and objects date back to this mythic time... with lesser magical weapons and objects following (or in rare cases, preceding) this age as the knowledge of making more powerful relics is lost with time (possibly to the point where even minor weapons are no longer able to be made for various reasons). We can even provide a framework for players to game in other eras... like Classical Greek or the Roman era... or the height of Egyptian power... or even further back to the final days of the Mythic Age (however a particular GM wants to portray such an era).

The big reason for that is that for most of the existence of the HU books they tried to AVOID setting material
The goal was to make the setting generic enough that it can be used by any GM in their world.
That goes out the window if you are writing a detailed history and making it a specific locked in world.
Now sure, that is a possibility and it seems that more and more that is the direction that is being taken.
But one should understand the reason for why there was so little background and generalness.

Razorwing wrote:
As for new categories of mystic empowerment... well... the "From Ruins to Runes" article in Rifter #52 postulated mystic weapons that can grow in power on their own... living weapons as it were... makes an interesting option... why play someone who merely wields a magic weapon... when you can play that very weapon itself and wield yourself to grow in power. People were not the only things that had mystic power bestowed upon themselves... some wizards and even gods empowered statues and golems to become eternal guardians. How about a return of the Illusionist from Revised Heroes Unlimited... who can cast spells like a Mystic Study character, but they are mostly illusions (though not the slight of hand of the Stage Magician in Special Training). Enchanted Objects definitely need a bit of a power boost... but why do so in the same way as Mystic Weapons or Mystically Bestowed characters were? Expanding the options for mystic weapons and armor of all types (some of which can be used as enchanted objects) is merely the tip of the iceberg.

I could point out some of the major game balance issues with the rifter 52 article...
...but I would instead simply suggest that any such thing be made VERY optional as a mega hero option (since they are utterly immortal!)

Razorwing wrote:
As for the Soul Stealing retcon from Armageddon Unlimited... that is more for the heroic adventure style that HU lends itself to... rather than the "I WIN" scenario it often turns into in other settings where a character is instantly killed by such weapons from a single scratch. Don't get me wrong... I've played in games where such weapons were used without them becoming such... but those tended to be the exception rather than the rule. Now we have a framework with which to deal with them on a heroic level without lessening the danger such weapons pose to players. Before, if your character didn't make the save vs. magic... he was dead and you had to make a new character. Now, there is a chance to reclaim that soul and restore your character without having to role up a new character. With how attached many players are to their characters... loosing them to a bad role of a single die can be devastating, so this reworking of Soul Stealing weapons can be a good thing. Of course, if you don't like it... you don't have to use it as such.

Your missing the point.
No really you are
Your making the mistake that just because you want a cool power that it should be available on your terms.
It shouldn't
Soul Stealing IS SUPPOSED TO BE UTTERLY BAD
If you don't want utterly dangerous, instantly leatheal powers. Here is a hint. DONT USE THEM IN YOUR GAME.
No really Don't.
If you want a new power that does this? GREAT. Add that.
That is wonderful it adds to the game.
But what the AU rules did is they diluted the game. Especially considering the fact that the MW set is a crossover it takes something that has been a core part of the game since its inception and changes it utterly 'because running it how it is supposed to be used isn't like I want it to be' and then expects that to be good.


Razorwing wrote:
What you see as a bad thing... others may see as a change for the better... giving them more options to work with. In the end however... it is merely an additional book for players and GMs to use as they see fit... taking what they like and discarding what they don't. Perhaps somethings will be retconed in ways you don't like... but in ways others find works for them. Are you so important that you have to have the book please you first and everyone else second (not an attack on you personally... but on the attitude that what one person enjoys is more important than what others might enjoy).

Then give options.
The trick to giving options though is to. Wait for it. Give OPTIONS.
Going through and saying "Nope, we are changing the rules on you because this author thinks you cant handle soul stealing" is not giving options. it is taking away options.
Going through and saying "Here is an optional rule to limit lethality on soul stealing" is giving options
Going through and saying "Here is a new optional power that can be used instead of soul stealing" is giving options

Razorwing wrote:
A Magic Unlimited sourcebook will likely have material some will find stupid and irrelevant... and complain that it should never have seen print, but by the same token, it may have some material others enjoy and use for their games. Sourcebooks like this should try to please as many types of people as possible while recognizing that it will never please everyone. No sourcebook can please everyone all the time with everything it presents, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted.

That is good.
It SHOULD try to please people
But that means it should be trying to be good. Saying "Well Its my book, I liked it if you don't like it just ignore it" is not good. That is being petty and foolish. That is how you ruin fanbases.
The author needs to actually consider what the readers are going to be thinking not just what their cool idea is. The author owes it to the fans to consider that there is a possibility that the author does not actually know better than they do and that some people might actually like the game as written and not want to play the authors "new improved" version once he 'fixes' by changing all the rules to be what they think they should be.

YES you can add rules. In fact I think books SHOULD add rules.
But additions need to be consistent.
If you are retconning something it needs to be for a pressing reason and not just because the current author thinks it would be cool. That way lie 'edit wars' with each author writing what every they want and arguing that it doesn't matter because 'they know best' and 'if you don't like it you can change it'. Which quickly ends up a mess for the player as the poor player is left to try and sort out which one of the many contradictory books is the actual rule.

I think the players deserve better than that.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:45 am
  

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Explorer

Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:10 am
Posts: 195
Razorwing wrote:
Well... when Heroes Unlimited first came out... there was no PPE system... you could cast only X amount of spells per day... regardless of whether they were as minor as Blinding Flash or as powerful as Sanctuary. It went on like that all the way through the Revised Heroes Unlimited... and only changed with 2nd Edition (if I remember correctly).


Uh, no. When heroes unlimited first came there was no magic system for it. I already mentioned on the previous page how Kevin said he didnt like magic heroes so he didnt include any. After many complaints he finally introduced magic with the revised edition, and then ppe with the second edition. Although revised was so different to the original that it shouldve been called second edition and the current one third edition.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:21 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:11 pm
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The point is that there is so much that Magic could be... even in a setting like Heroes Unlimited... yet while other categories get updates and expanded... magic and magical heroes remain static and rather limited in comparison (the irony being that Mystic Study characters are supposed to be a progressive type category that grows in power with level and gaining new spells).

For the Ley Lines... on low magic world like HU and BtSN, they are described as bare trickles of a stream of mystic energy... much less than the raging rivers of mystic energy one has on Rifts Earth. Have you ever seen a 1/4th of a mile wide stream? It really doesn't make a lot of sense that a mage on a magic poor world can tap into a ley line that by all rights is barely there at the same distance as he can on a magic rich world where such a ley line is nearly bursting its seams.

Yes, there is a difference in the amount of energy one can draw from them, but that only furthers the point... if there is less energy to be tapped on a ley line on HU Earth, shouldn't one actually have to be closer to it to tap into that energy than say if they were on Rifts Earth where there is far more energy for them to draw upon. Look at actual rivers of water... when there is little flowing through them, can you still draw water easily from the bank of the river... or do you actually have to get closer to the center of it compared to when the river is nearly flooding its banks? While water and magical energy are not the same thing, the principle is the same... ley lines with less magical energy (HU Earth ley lines compared to Rifts Earth ley lines) shouldn't be just as wide... or even as long.

To you... this may seem trivial and unimportant... and in the long run it may be... but I have played in more than a few games where magic was at various levels of power and the fact that the ley lines in all the world were exactly the same (save for how much energy could be tapped) always bothered me and my fellow gamers. A mystic in BtSN should need to be closer to an actual ley line (which should be narrower due to the lower energy within it) to draw power from it than the Line Walker on Rifts Earth needs to be because there is so much more magical energy in the ley lines of Rifts Earth.

From a gaming stand point, this would also help to highlight just how far HU Earth's levels of magic have fallen since legendary mystic cultures of a lost Mythic Age ruled... when magic was as common as it is on Palladium Fantasy (if not close to the level of Rifts Earth). Already in PF we see that magic is on a surprisingly fast decline (went from far more powerful than Rifts Earth to about 40% of what Rifts Earth has in the span of 100,000 years. Many ley lines on PF have either shifted over that time or vanished completely... and even the few that remain active are barely noticeable unless one is trained in magic. Can you honestly tell me that you don't find it a little implausible that ley lines will retain the exact same dimensions when there is barely any energy flowing through them as they had when they were nearly bursting with energy? If ley lines are a natural feature of most worlds... wouldn't they follow similar natural laws as rivers... in that when there is less energy flowing through them, they are generally smaller? Just because we are talking about magic doesn't mean that it doesn't follow similar natural laws as all other phenomena do.

A Magic Unlimited book will likely introduce things that some people don't like... just like the Hardware Unlimited is like to do or even Powers Unlimited books have done. Yes... it may change things too... giving a new perspective on things... much like Aliens Unlimited and even Century Station did. There isn't a single book that has been published that didn't change or add something to the game that someone, somewhere didn't like. In the end, you have stated your opinion... but that is all it really is... your opinion. If someone does write Magic Unlimited and Palladium publishes it and it changes things you wanted to stay static and unchanging... you are free to ignore it. If others decide to use such changes to expand their own games... that is also their choice. In the end, it will be Palladium Books that decides what is published (and Kevin is supposedly very hands on... claiming to refuse to publish a book that doesn't meet his standards).

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:01 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Razorwing wrote:
The point is that there is so much that Magic could be... even in a setting like Heroes Unlimited... yet while other categories get updates and expanded... magic and magical heroes remain static and rather limited in comparison (the irony being that Mystic Study characters are supposed to be a progressive type category that grows in power with level and gaining new spells).

For the Ley Lines... on low magic world like HU and BtSN, they are described as bare trickles of a stream of mystic energy... much less than the raging rivers of mystic energy one has on Rifts Earth. Have you ever seen a 1/4th of a mile wide stream? It really doesn't make a lot of sense that a mage on a magic poor world can tap into a ley line that by all rights is barely there at the same distance as he can on a magic rich world where such a ley line is nearly bursting its seams.

Yes, there is a difference in the amount of energy one can draw from them, but that only furthers the point... if there is less energy to be tapped on a ley line on HU Earth, shouldn't one actually have to be closer to it to tap into that energy than say if they were on Rifts Earth where there is far more energy for them to draw upon. Look at actual rivers of water... when there is little flowing through them, can you still draw water easily from the bank of the river... or do you actually have to get closer to the center of it compared to when the river is nearly flooding its banks? While water and magical energy are not the same thing, the principle is the same... ley lines with less magical energy (HU Earth ley lines compared to Rifts Earth ley lines) shouldn't be just as wide... or even as long.

To you... this may seem trivial and unimportant... and in the long run it may be... but I have played in more than a few games where magic was at various levels of power and the fact that the ley lines in all the world were exactly the same (save for how much energy could be tapped) always bothered me and my fellow gamers. A mystic in BtSN should need to be closer to an actual ley line (which should be narrower due to the lower energy within it) to draw power from it than the Line Walker on Rifts Earth needs to be because there is so much more magical energy in the ley lines of Rifts Earth.

From a gaming stand point, this would also help to highlight just how far HU Earth's levels of magic have fallen since legendary mystic cultures of a lost Mythic Age ruled... when magic was as common as it is on Palladium Fantasy (if not close to the level of Rifts Earth). Already in PF we see that magic is on a surprisingly fast decline (went from far more powerful than Rifts Earth to about 40% of what Rifts Earth has in the span of 100,000 years. Many ley lines on PF have either shifted over that time or vanished completely... and even the few that remain active are barely noticeable unless one is trained in magic. Can you honestly tell me that you don't find it a little implausible that ley lines will retain the exact same dimensions when there is barely any energy flowing through them as they had when they were nearly bursting with energy? If ley lines are a natural feature of most worlds... wouldn't they follow similar natural laws as rivers... in that when there is less energy flowing through them, they are generally smaller? Just because we are talking about magic doesn't mean that it doesn't follow similar natural laws as all other phenomena do.

A Magic Unlimited book will likely introduce things that some people don't like... just like the Hardware Unlimited is like to do or even Powers Unlimited books have done. Yes... it may change things too... giving a new perspective on things... much like Aliens Unlimited and even Century Station did. There isn't a single book that has been published that didn't change or add something to the game that someone, somewhere didn't like. In the end, you have stated your opinion... but that is all it really is... your opinion. If someone does write Magic Unlimited and Palladium publishes it and it changes things you wanted to stay static and unchanging... you are free to ignore it. If others decide to use such changes to expand their own games... that is also their choice. In the end, it will be Palladium Books that decides what is published (and Kevin is supposedly very hands on... claiming to refuse to publish a book that doesn't meet his standards).


The point I am making here is that Palladium made a choice already on how it wanted to have Ley Lines work
It already made a choice on how spells work
The range of magic does not change based on magic level. It never has.
Thus the claim that suddenly we should be changing the range of one form of magic because it doesn't make sense to one person is the exact sort of retcon problem that I am talking about.
For three decades Palladium has had a specific, consistant rules in place on how Ley Lines work. It has had a universal constant on how the mechanics work and that has always been the same.
Going back and saying "just kidding, we are changing all of that" needs to be done for a GOOD reason not just "well I don't like how the core mechanics of the game have been run since the concept of Ley Lines were written so I am going to change it to something that fits my personal idea of what is best"

You want to explore the lesser state of ley lines?
GREAT
Explore that. Within the context of the canon though.
There are some fascinating ways to do that which can be done with out the cheep and, frankly lazy, resort to retconning them into thinner streams.

I have, in my own games, explored this in several ways.
One of them was to explore "orders" of streams. In places like Rifts there are tons and tons of Ley Lines, where as in some place like BTS they seem to be very rare.
I explained that as because there are 'orders' of ley lines (first order, second order, third order, fourth order). In BTS only first order Ley Lines have enough energy to be 'active' but once active a ley line is active (magic appears to be quantized, which I used to explain why there was quantal magic energy aka the PPE point). In a world like Heroes unlimited second order lines are active. In Palladium Third order lines. Rifts has all the way down to sixth order lines. This allowed me to use 'in game speak' to tell characters how magical a world was "You estimate that the magic here is a second order world"
The Rifter article on ley lines would be good to explore. As would bringing the BTS 1 material on places of power, rips, and transient places of power (a good example of lower energy would be a transient ley line... it flickers on and off based on fluctuations)

One of the things I explored in my game was the interconnections between worlds. We know that the ley-line grid is connected between worlds yes? What does that mean?
One of the things I explored was that the 'rips' of magic might be ley lines that are 'perpendicular' to our reality and form a cross work.

I also introduced a few new additional forms of ley line (including some skinny ley lines and thicker ley lines) to my games.

This allowed me to have magic levels on different worlds be graduated with out having to be lazy and just say "well its got thinner ley lines"
Especially since the magic levels of the different worlds are not all that much different.
Seriously!
Robotech and Rifts both have MDC magic
BTS, Nightbane, Palladium, Ninjas, and Heroes all have almost identical levels of magical energy (since their spells are almost identical in effect)
So really... why should their ley lines be all that much different overall?

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:21 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
In the interests of being positive instead of just being negative I will show what I mean.

My suggestion for Soul Drinking.

Optional Rule
New Ability's: Life Taker and Harvester of Souls
These abilities are related to the famed (and dreaded) Soul Drinking power of certain Rune weapons. Unlike a Soul Drinker though they do not cosume and destroy the soul of their victim. Each serves a slightly different, though malign purpose.
A Harvester of Souls acts identically to a Soul Drinker in regards to activation, save and all other effects save that instead of the soul being destroyed the soul is harvested and stored inside the weapon. A Harvester of Souls may store a limited number of souls, usually 3, 7, or 13 though whispers speak of weapons that can hold more (G.M. note while most weapons can hold a maximum of 13 souls at the GMs discretion special legendary weapons may indeed be able to hold more souls. This can serve as a plot device as a villain harvests the souls of massive numbers of innocents and the heroes race to stop them). The Souls can be released later, either into a magical container where they can be used for various necromantic purposes, traps where they can be held as hostages, or simply freed to return to their body or pass on to where ever it is that souls go.

A Life Taker: This ability is similar to a soul drinking but instead of taking the entire soul itself it takes a portion of the life force. This portion, while critical is not, quite, instantly fatal. This is often used to then compel the victim or their loved ones to act as agents or hostages...<put in text of the AU revision to soul drinking here>

These powers may be substituted by the GM on any weapon that has Soul Drinking in lieu of that power, or added to a Soul Drinker as an additional Power (Each power counts as one selection)


Presto. Instead of retconing Souldrinking and reducing the possibilities, this sort of writing ADDS to the possibilities.
It doesn't change anything, doesn't require going back and retroactively rewriting the game but instead it adds new powers that allow for the game to be tailored as the GM desires.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:20 pm
  

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D-Bee

Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:20 pm
Posts: 34
Location: Western Kentucky
Enchant Weapons power categories need more than just weapons of order/chaos. Expand the categories to include elemental weapons, weapons geared towards specific deities, etc., much like they did when they updated the Shifter's link to the supernatural in the RUE. Each specific type could have certain advantages/disadvantages, abilities, and it would add a whole lot more flavor than just Good v. Evil weapons, which was more an adaptation of rune weapons from other games.

The same can be said of the enchanted objects category. They need more of a selection than what is presented in the main book with expanded abilities, maybe curses or other limitations on the objects, and stuff of that nature.

Ideally if it was a lengthy book they could include updated spells as well, and more basic spell casting classes other than just wizard. While it is easy to adapt other O.C.C.'s, having a few unique super-hero related O.C.C.s could interesting to include, i.e., spells to control/limit superpowers, spells that grant superpower abilities for a time. These are all just things that are coming off the top of my head but as it's been said the magic categories always seemed dreadfully boring in the super-hero world.

It could also expand the more mystical side of the world as well. Just think while there are super-heroes out there fighting super-villains, there are mystics and wizards fighting to keep dimensional raiders out or banish supernatural entities and the likes. I played a game as a demon hunter in HU and it was way more BTS than HU, super heroes just got in the way of fighting the 'real' threats that they couldn't perceive. Imagine trying to exorcise a child and an invincible dude comes along thinking you're trying to hurt them. It made for some fun gameplay. Oh and getting stuck in traffic because two 'supers' were fighting made for some great comic relief on the way to investigate a case or what have you.

Hardware: Magic class sound like a good idea to anyone a la Techno-Wizard?
Mystical Training for the physcial training class (or mystically bestowed?). Some sort of mystic warrior endowed with magical abilities(monk?).

Honestly just kinda rambling out some ideas but it would be a good supplement IMO.

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Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, Rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:02 pm
  

Knight

Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 2:01 am
Posts: 4201
Location: Québec
SlaytherDragon is Right,maybe ther can be ppe powered weapons and item?

I would also like Original Spells for H.U,not only Ones that are Copy from Palladium fantasy.

Maybe a Super powers or Psionic disruption spells.

I hope People can send ther ideas to Rifter.

Magic Unlimited Would be Great for the Next H.U,s book.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:46 pm
  

Knight

Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 2:01 am
Posts: 4201
Location: Québec
What spells do you want from Rifts do you like to see?

Do you think they use spells from different Schools of Magic like Elemental,Necro and so on?


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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:08 pm
  

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Virtuoso of Variants

Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:18 pm
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Location: Lurking on rooftops like a proper gargoyle should, in and around Tacoma, WA.
Comment: "Your inferiority complex might be justified."
gaby wrote:
What spells do you want from Rifts do you like to see?

Do you think they use spells from different Schools of Magic like Elemental,Necro and so on?
Non.e. I want new and different spells, not just stuff we've already seen

_________________
"SG is a variant machine. It slices, it dices, it whatever else that ryhmes in that scheme, its the SG Variant Power-O-Matic Machine." ~ wolfsgrin
"SG, you are a limitless fountain of Butt-Saving Advice. You Rock, Stone and Concrete." ~ TrumbachD
http://wiki.thedeificnmi.com


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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:49 pm
  

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Megaversal® Ambassador

Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:15 pm
Posts: 1824
Location: Ontario, Canada
gaby wrote:
What spells do you want from Rifts do you like to see?

Why would we only want to see converted Rifts spells? Why not new ones, ones that interact with (for better or worse) Super powers, or other new fields?
Or just new and unique ones that have more of a super heroic flavor or flare?
That is what I would want.

gaby wrote:
Do you think they use spells from different Schools of Magic like Elemental,Necro and so on?

Only if there are similar magic using power categories to the OCCs that use those spells. I would not like to see specialty schools of magic included only to have the restrictions removed to make them all invocations, that would be terrible.

But I would prefer unique specialty schools of magic to go along with Mystic Study sub-variant power categories, or even wholly new ones.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:42 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 9122
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
For Rifts conversions the vast majority of the conversion would be assigning an AR/NAR to the various defensive spells.
Instead of taking up the dozens of pages to write up each spell you could do that in a simple list
Armor Bizarre AR xx
Cosmic Armor AR xx
and so on.
Poof, done. Move on.

There are a tiny handful of spells that would be good to convert fully. These would be those spells that intersect heavily with things like technology and the like.
But for the most part I would agree with the others. I would like to see new material and not repackaged old stuff.

The most important absolute necessity is that they need to have super magic. Nightbane has magic that intersects with Nightbane. Palladium has ward magic... HU needs magic that intersects with super powers.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:50 am
  

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Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:37 pm
Posts: 344
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Magic and psionics are not popular with my players because they involve keeping track of points. They prefer powers which can be used as needed with almost no math involved. As a GM, I don't mind it, but neither is it used that extensively.



You could always house-rule it into your campaign that they use magic via the original (non-revised) HU 2nd edition system, which didn't use any sort of points at all. I did that for a while in my games b/c at the time I felt that the P.P.E. costs for spells were too high for beginning characters.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:34 pm
  

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Adventurer

Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:01 pm
Posts: 604
Location: "France...We come from France."
Comment: "Incredible Cosmic Power! ...teeny tiny living space."
Stone Gargoyle wrote:
gaby wrote:
What spells do you want from Rifts do you like to see?

Do you think they use spells from different Schools of Magic like Elemental,Necro and so on?
None. I want new and different spells, not just stuff we've already seen
Agreed. If they want my money, they better give me something I don't already have in a dozen other books.

_________________
"Sorry, I'm busy tonight...Same thing I do every night...Trying the take over the world..."


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Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:46 pm
  

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Priest

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
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Location: Jewdica
Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
I was thinking about it again this week and while I've kludged it together myself using the experiment category I'd like to see something like the Physical Adept from ShadowRun or the Natural type character from BtS where the person uses his magical powers to upgrade themselves and their ability at the cost of their PPE and/or spell casting. Maybe have it where they have bought base abilities like added strength and dexterity but then can either 'cast' or spend PPE to temporarily enhance themselves as well like if they need to make a super sniper shot or something like that which has a limited duration and will fade after they've used it and need more PPE or rest for them to use again.


Daniel Stoker

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Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:00 pm
  

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Virtuoso of Variants

Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:18 pm
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Location: Lurking on rooftops like a proper gargoyle should, in and around Tacoma, WA.
Comment: "Your inferiority complex might be justified."
Daniel Stoker wrote:
I was thinking about it again this week and while I've kludged it together myself using the experiment category I'd like to see something like the Physical Adept from ShadowRun or the Natural type character from BtS where the person uses his magical powers to upgrade themselves and their ability at the cost of their PPE and/or spell casting. Maybe have it where they have bought base abilities like added strength and dexterity but then can either 'cast' or spend PPE to temporarily enhance themselves as well like if they need to make a super sniper shot or something like that which has a limited duration and will fade after they've used it and need more PPE or rest for them to use again.


Daniel Stoker
Something like that would be awesome.

_________________
"SG is a variant machine. It slices, it dices, it whatever else that ryhmes in that scheme, its the SG Variant Power-O-Matic Machine." ~ wolfsgrin
"SG, you are a limitless fountain of Butt-Saving Advice. You Rock, Stone and Concrete." ~ TrumbachD
http://wiki.thedeificnmi.com


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