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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:33 am
  

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Wanderer

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Comment: When the Dead Walk, blare Misfits and kill 'em all.
I remember reading this but I can't remember where.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:53 am
  

Palladin

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in morphus form yes. in facade they shouldn't be able to sense them as a supernatural being. they may be able to sense them for other reasons (particularly if they're a spellcaster and cast a spell, for example).


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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:22 pm
  

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Monk

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In their Facade Nightbane do not have a Supernatural Aura.

So......
No, Psi-Hounds can not sense a NB as being SN while they are in their facade.

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Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:39 am
  

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Palladin

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Yes.
Most Nightbane tend to have rather large reserves of PPE, and as such if the reserve is 80+ then a Dog Boy can sense that regardless of other factors.

Second, the 'flavors' of the scents are distinct. Thus a Dog Boy who has encountered Nightbane would get a roll on their Recognize Psychic Scent skill to identify the scent as being that of a Nightbane (A GM could make a house rule that this does not apply in their game, but as written I am not aware of any canon text that states that a Nightbane 'scans' as a human to supernatural senses)

Third there is the See Aura ability, which will reveal that the 'bane is not human

Forth and most obvious of course... the ability "Sense Supernatural Beings" can be used. This is because the ability can recognize even such things as a mage simply by their 'scent' and PPE... and Nightbane have large reserves of PPE and more to the point they are supernatural beings.

As far as the canon is concerned I am not aware of any rule stating anywhere that an awakened Nightbane does not detect as such. There is no such text in the racial write up, nor in the psionic section nor magic section of the Nightbane RPG. (There could be some that I am forgetting of course...)

Thus, a Nightbane would be quite easialy found out by a Dog Boy. And in fact it is just this sort of 'supernatural creature in human clothing' that Dog Boys were designed specifically to ferret out.

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Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:22 pm
  

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Nuance.....

1: This is a maybe depending on which canon core ideas for the two races (NB's & PH's) you give weight to take precedence. NB core concept: When changing to their facade it hides the NB's supernatural side.
However, this is something that is arguable ether way. More likely to fall to which setting the game is in then any specific hard rule.
Thou if PH's can sense the amount of PPE this would only lead the PH to believe they are sensing a magic user.

2: The psychic scent that Psi-Hound perceive is only given off when the being uses their powers/magic, and that what SN beings give off all the time. All a NB would have to do to avoid being detected like this is not use their talents while in their facade. Or if a mage not cast their magic ether.

3. Yes, NB in their facade would read as not human to see/sense aura. But this power is not always 'on'.

4. While the Psi-Hounds would be able to track a NB while the NB is in his/her morphus as easy as other SN (psi-hound power #3). Once they change to their facade the NB does not give off a SN psychic scent. So the Psi-Hound's ability to follow a SN being' psychic scent ends with the end of the scent.
Hounds (50%+5%) and Hunters (40%+5%) have a better ability to follow a psychic sense then Psi-Hounds (35%+5%). And they, Hunters and Hounds, can't follow the psychic scent of a NB in their facade.
(Psi-Stalkers only have a 40%+5% for their track via psychic scents.)

So the only thing that might attract a Psi-Hound's attention just using their 'always on' senses might be the sensing of their level of PPE.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:16 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Nuance.....

1: This is a maybe depending on which canon core ideas for the two races (NB's & PH's) you give weight to take precedence. NB core concept: When changing to their facade it hides the NB's supernatural side.
However, this is something that is arguable ether way. More likely to fall to which setting the game is in then any specific hard rule.
Thou if PH's can sense the amount of PPE this would only lead the PH to believe they are sensing a magic user.

Where is this concept found? Besides in peoples headcanon? I can find NOTHING in the book that says anything about such hiding is why I ask.
Though, yes. This power will simply find the PPE pool.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
2: The psychic scent that Psi-Hound perceive is only given off when the being uses their powers/magic, and that what SN beings give off all the time. All a NB would have to do to avoid being detected like this is not use their talents while in their facade. Or if a mage not cast their magic ether.

That is not what the book says though.
The book clearly states that the scent that is perceived is the scent, among other things that of the 80+ PPE pool. Therefore simply having 80+ PPE means you are giving off the scent.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
3. Yes, NB in their facade would read as not human to see/sense aura. But this power is not always 'on'.

Again, can you point me to where this is stated in the text?
I am aware that this is bandied about fairly often as a "well known fact"... but it appears to me to be a fanon/headcanon fact and not an actual game fact. I may be mistaken of course, which is why I am asking for the source. But I can't find any support for the claim is why I am asking. With out such support then no, they do NOT read as human.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
4. While the Psi-Hounds would be able to track a NB while the NB is in his/her morphus as easy as other SN (psi-hound power #3). Once they change to their facade the NB does not give off a SN psychic scent. So the Psi-Hound's ability to follow a SN being' psychic scent ends with the end of the scent.
Hounds (50%+5%) and Hunters (40%+5%) have a better ability to follow a psychic sense then Psi-Hounds (35%+5%). And they, Hunters and Hounds, can't follow the psychic scent of a NB in their facade.
(Psi-Stalkers only have a 40%+5% for their track via psychic scents.)

The same question applies here.
I can not find the statement that the façade does not detect as supernatural. I find that the Nitghtbane does not have access to its supernatural STATS in this form... but they still have their talents, PPE, they still have their supernatural abilities et multiple cetera.
With out an explicit statement that they do not detect as supernatural... then they detect as supernatural.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
So the only thing that might attract a Psi-Hound's attention just using their 'always on' senses might be the sensing of their level of PPE.

I am trying to find out what the canon answer is here. House rules can be worked out after that is solved.
And as far as I can tell there is no canon support for the claim that nightbane have this "supernatural stealth power" making that a house rule not a canon rule.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:14 pm
  

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Monk

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1: You, eliakon, had already stated the core concept of psi-hounds "'...supernatural creature in human clothing' that Dog Boys were designed specifically to ferret out." and did complain about it.
I didn't turn off my intelligence when reading the NB mainbook and used it to see the core concept behind the race in the game. Your insulting accusations are not helpful to any discussion.

2: the RUE text for psi-hound's power #2 says nothing about their target only needing to have 80+ PPE to be able to recognize the psychic scent. That is your house rule.
It DOES SAY that the target has to use their powers for the scent to be cast out to be sensed.


3: See Aura... erp I goofed. I said things slightly incorrectly......IF.... the PH has the psi power see aura; as per RUE, See Aura is not a part of the standard set of psi power the PHs get; then they could use it to look at the aura.

4: Yes, you are looking in the wrong places. Places like the NBSG where it talks about only having to get out of sight to change back to their facade and disappear into the crowd, or maybe rifter 48 page 23 in the official Q&A where it directly says that the main book indicated that the facade is not supernatural. Or on page 25, it says that only their morphus is SN and that their facade is human...mostly.
Go ahead, sleep in the bed you made for yourself.
I'm right in my statements about this item.

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:41 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
1: You, eliakon, had already stated the core concept of psi-hounds "'...supernatural creature in human clothing' that Dog Boys were designed specifically to ferret out." and did complain about it.
I didn't turn off my intelligence when reading the NB mainbook and used it to see the core concept behind the race in the game. Your insulting accusations are not helpful to any discussion.

I am not asking about people's house rules or what their opinion on the game is.
What is at stake here is the RAW.
Thus... the question is if there is an actual rule mechanic that provides for Nightbane to have some sort of immunity to detection abilities. Because otherwise it is a house rule to add in such a mechanic.


drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
2: the RUE text for psi-hound's power #2 says nothing about their target only needing to have 80+ PPE to be able to recognize the psychic scent. That is your house rule.
It DOES SAY that the target has to use their powers for the scent to be cast out to be sensed.

My mistake. It should be power #3 not #2 My Bad.


drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
4: Yes, you are looking in the wrong places. Places like the NBSG where it talks about only having to get out of sight to change back to their facade and disappear into the crowd, or maybe rifter 48 page 23 in the official Q&A where it directly says that the main book indicated that the facade is not supernatural. Or on page 25, it says that only their morphus is SN and that their facade is human...mostly.
Go ahead, sleep in the bed you made for yourself.
I'm right in my statements about this item.

Okay.
Let me try this again.
The facade is not supernatural. However the main book simpy states that it does not have supernatural stats.
As the CREATURE is still a supernatural being in both forms, the fact that one body is not supernatural does not change the fact that the being ITSELF is a supernatural one.
The 'bane is still a supurnatural being in both forms. Thus an evil bane will radiate evil when scaned even in Facade. A bane will show as supernatural when scanned with an aura, et multiple cetera.
More to the point there is nothing in the text that states that the 'bane has any sort of immunity to detection, and infact we know that they CAN be detected as there is at least one spell that can do so as well as the natural racial ability of Nightbane and Athanos.
Which goes back to my original question
Is there a specific statement in the books that Nightbane are immune to detection abilities in their facade form?
We know that their Facade form does not have supernatural statistics and is SDC (except when it is MDC...)
But they still possess supernatural abilities and are still supernatural creatures. That does not change, even if their body does change.

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Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:00 am
  

Palladin

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ugh. now i'm gonna have to go digging through 5 books to find the reference for the facade not detecting as supernatural.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:19 pm
  

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Lets try this again.
1) To start off with the I gave the simple canonical answer to the question posed in the OP.
After that I was free to give my opinion as an opinion. As I did. I even agreed with you that they could sense the NB's level of PPE. Yes, did state the nuance that goes along with it that they PH would 1st think that they were seeing a human magic user. This is because NB are not supernatural in their facade.
-------------
3) the 80+ is a part of their power #1. Yes, I read power #3. And I understand it.
NB are not supernatural in their facade trumps any argument you may bring up.
-------------
4) Nightbane are not supernatural in their facade. ergo/therefor/as a result....senses that detect the Supernatural do not sense the nightbane while they are in their facade. In other words....they are perceived as humans in all aspects till something else changes the preconceptions.

That you are stretching to grasp strands that do not meet up and trying to make them meet up is readily apparent to me.
Evil NBs....
Yes, while in their morphus they would be detected by the psi power 'detect (SN) evil' psi power. (yes, I habitually add the '(SN)' to that power's name because it is a defining part of that psi power.)
However, because they are not SN in their facade, they would't be detected by that same said power while they are in their facade.
This is the cognitive connection you are missing when the published canon text says that NB are not SN in their facade.
This is why nb can mingle within a crowd of humans and not be detected by those that can sense the SN and can track a SN's psychic trail.

This subject has only a binary solution set. There is no 'but this...' or 'what about that...'.
NB are not supernatural in their facade.
---------
And as to trying to make their ability to see in the dark to make them readable as SN...Elves have the ability to see in the dark too and they do not read as SN.
---------
#1 #3 connection: That NB have more then 80+ PPE only means that they are detected in their facade as humans with more then normal PPE.
It is only when they are in their morphus that they 'are'/'read as' supernatural.
---------
This subject of NB not being supernatural in their facade has been argued several times of the years since it was published in 1995. Every one of those discussions ended up with a consensus that NB were not SN in their facade and that meant that powers that sensed the supernatural does not sense them. Most of these discussions were before you time on the boards eliakon (based off your join date). It was a relief that R48 finally made that the NB's facade is not SN explicitly clear. (at least as far as PB writing standards can make it.) That should of put this stupid argument behind everyone.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:30 am
  

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I'm trying to recall everything which can detect NB in Facade. Nothing comes to mind except other Nightbane and I think Athanatos?

Rifts Ultimate Edition page 145 wrote:
the Psi-Hound can detect the presence of psychic energy; specifically
    fellow psychics (I.S.P.)
    and
    magic energy (P.P.E used
      in spellcasting,
      in magic devices
      and
      the large energy reserves in
        practitioners
        and
        creatures
        of magic;
        80 or more points
    )


I think the indenting might help people understand how these ideas come together in grouping.

"80 or more" is defining what "large" is in respect to "energy reserves".

These reserves only apply to 2 things: practitioners of magic and creatures of magic.

Anything with 80+ PPE who is neither would not be sensed.

This also means that dog boys cannot sense practitioners/creatures with 79 or less PPE.

RUE 153 does not limit Psi-Stalkers to the same minimum. Instead it is a vague "magic and the supernatural (both with high PPE)" which is more flexible, so GM could define what 'high' is for these purposes as something less than the 'large' of 80.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:32 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
I'm trying to recall everything which can detect NB in Facade. Nothing comes to mind except other Nightbane and I think Athanatos?

Rifts Ultimate Edition page 145 wrote:
the Psi-Hound can detect the presence of psychic energy; specifically
    fellow psychics (I.S.P.)
    and
    magic energy (P.P.E used
      in spellcasting,
      in magic devices
      and
      the large energy reserves in
        practitioners
        and
        creatures
        of magic;
        80 or more points
    )


I think the indenting might help people understand how these ideas come together in grouping.

"80 or more" is defining what "large" is in respect to "energy reserves".

These reserves only apply to 2 things: practitioners of magic and creatures of magic.

Anything with 80+ PPE who is neither would not be sensed.

This also means that dog boys cannot sense practitioners/creatures with 79 or less PPE.

RUE 153 does not limit Psi-Stalkers to the same minimum. Instead it is a vague "magic and the supernatural (both with high PPE)" which is more flexible, so GM could define what 'high' is for these purposes as something less than the 'large' of 80.
That wording can just as easily be read as descriptive of who would have those large reserves. Reading through the later entry on sense supernatural, where it talks about tracking other inhuman beings powerful with magic, and I'd say that the 80 points is a threshhold for any being, regardless of type. (That said, how often does a creature who is not a practitioner of magic or some other kind of supernatural being have that much PPE anyways?)


Last edited by dreicunan on Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:19 pm
  

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Knight

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Sensing supernatural beings is an entirely different power.

How often's irrelevant.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:38 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Sensing supernatural beings is an entirely different power.

How often's irrelevant.
An entirely different power "identical in basic function and principal." Also rather illuminating for this discussion, because the ability to sense supernatural beings includes the ability to "recognize practioners and creatures of magic by the large amount of PPE they possess, regardless of how they may disguise themselves."

So an ability that is ostensibly titled "sense supernatural beings" clearly includes the ability to sense non-supernatural beings. This extends to the point that the ability to "Sense Supernatural Beings" allows them to detect wizards or creatures of magic who are invisible!

So, whether or not Nightbane are supernatural in their facade, since the text of power #3 indicates that, despite the title, it applies to non-supernatural being as well, I'd say that would make them subject to detection.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:42 am
  

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dreicunan wrote:
snip
So, whether or not Nightbane are supernatural in their facade, since the text of power #3 indicates that, despite the title, it applies to non-supernatural being as well, I'd say that would make them subject to detection.

Yes, As someone with large amount of PPE (if not depleated), like I said earlyer. The basic inference will be a magic user of some sort because they can't psychicly smell/sense any supernatrualness coming off them.

Yes, the text of the #3 PH ability got twisted in core concept between the Name and the descriptive text.
⁍So if you go with the Name, the PH does not detect the NB in her Facade because she is not SN in her facade.
⁍Or you go by the text and the PH only detectes the amount of PPE the char has & then Psi-Hounds can only make inferances about why the char has the amount of PPE they have. And are not detected as a SN from any psychic scent. Because NB are not SN in their facade.


Again, this is what I said earlier.
Yes, she can be detected as having large amounts of PPE by Psi-Hounds while in her facade (presuming she has alot of unspent PPE), but not detected directly as SN while in her facade.

If (a+b)c= 0. And if r times c equals 0. The result is the same.

Spoiler:
Yes, I know there are GMs out there that have made a ruling for their games that 'sense PPE' powers sense what beings could hold and not the PPE itself.
This is not what the publish canon text says. It says the amount of PPE the being has is detected. Not, "could hold".

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:14 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Yes, I know there are GMs out there that have made a ruling for their games that 'sense PPE' powers sense what beings could hold and not the PPE itself.
This is not what the publish canon text says. It says the amount of PPE the being has is detected. Not, "could hold".

Can you provide the source for that text?
I have not actually seen such a ruling myself and I am most curious. Especially in light of the fact that base PPE is also refered to as simply PPE as well.
Knowing where this is stated in canon that all references to PPE are the temporary PPE and not the base PPE would simplify a lot of things for me.

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Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:35 pm
  

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The canon Text in RUE, psi-hound #1 power. It says it detects the mystic energy "in" psions and magic users. And #3 in saying they detects the mystic energy they "possess".

With both of the descriptive words used there is a pressence of 'something' within the being.

So the detecting the PPE is like detecting the water in a balloon, not sensing the size of the balloon.
Using the same anallagy to describe the rest of the #1 power, the Psi-Hound can't smell the water till the water is used.
With #3 this analagy breaks down for sense a psychic smell of the SN due to it is still talking about sensing the PPE within the beings, and now in objects too.

When taken as a whole the Psi-hounds senses point sources mysic energy. Opposed to the Hound's and Hunters' ability to follow a 'trail' of psychic scent.

Another analogy I would make, is that the different sensing of the psychic sense. A psi-hound's is more like how you feel an ant walking in the hairs of your arm. And a Hunter's sensing the ant is more like how the ant smells the pheramon trail each ant lays down as it walks.

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:41 pm
  

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So then my question is, per canon, at what range can a psi-hound detect an invisible wizard?


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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:04 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The canon Text in RUE, psi-hound #1 power. It says it detects the mystic energy "in" psions and magic users. And #3 in saying they detects the mystic energy they "possess".

With both of the descriptive words used there is a pressence of 'something' within the being.

And yet my question still stands.
Is it the PPE base that they possess or the PPE points that they possess.
I understand your personal house rule on the issue, but if your stating that it is flat canon then we need more than a statement that is open to interpretation.

After all, they are both mystic forces, they are both in side the person, and they can both be expended for magic. Even if you are at zero 'tally' PPE you still have all your 'base' PPE.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:06 pm
  

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dreicunan wrote:
So then my question is, per canon, at what range can a psi-hound detect an invisible wizard?

The answer there is fuzzy, and depends on how the particular GM interprets the text and what sort of invisibility is in use, and what the PPE of said wizard is (current or base again depending on how the GM reads the text)

If the Mage has 80 current PPE, and is using lesser invisibility then they are just hosed as the Dog Boy will smell the large PPE pool regardless of how the text is read.
Beyond that it gets complicated.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:39 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The canon Text in RUE, psi-hound #1 power. It says it detects the mystic energy "in" psions and magic users. And #3 in saying they detects the mystic energy they "possess".

With both of the descriptive words used there is a pressence of 'something' within the being.

And yet my question still stands.
Is it the PPE base that they possess or the PPE points that they possess.
I understand your personal house rule on the issue, but if your stating that it is flat canon then we need more than a statement that is open to interpretation.

After all, they are both mystic forces, they are both in side the person, and they can both be expended for magic. Even if you are at zero 'tally' PPE you still have all your 'base' PPE.

Which side are you misunderstanding is my house rule? The contaner or the contained is sensed?
I ask because I don't have a house rule about this.

Besides that you are misrepresenting what canon says what a 'Base PPE' is.
What canon says it is, and I am paraphrasing for clarity, is the amount of PPE a character can hold onto indefinitly.
This makes it when the char has used up the PPE they have on spells or otherwise, they have no PPE.

It was nice of you to give us your house rule on this. But maybe next time you should state that it is your house rule instread of misrepresenting it as if it was canon.

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

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Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:01 pm
  

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Monk

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dreicunan wrote:
So then my question is, per canon, at what range can a psi-hound detect an invisible wizard?

Yes, if he/she has more them 80 PPE.
▶︎ If the mage is using magic to be invisible, then this triggers the PsiHound's sense active magic ability.
▶︎ If the mage is using a super power or natural power, if the 80 PPE thresshold is met, it does not matter if the the mage is invisible or not. I would look at the "Blind Seer" PCC (RC2) for possible penilties for sensing the mystic w/o them being visible.

_________________
Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

My Artwork


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