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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:02 pm
  

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Voice of the Gateway

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Location: North Sydney, Nova Scotia, CANADA. NOT Austrailia, CANADA.
Comment: I love how people are quick to make demands, make spurious claims and then play the victim when you call them on it.
Come on in and we'll be discussing 'da rules'

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Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:17 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:07 pm
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where are you

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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:30 pm
  

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Rifts® Trivia Master

Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
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Location: Missouri
a few comments to back up some of the missile statements i made.

RUE: pg 362
"Note: All missiles always strike the main body"

RUE: pg 363
"Direct Hit. The actual target struck by a grenade or missile is at the Epicenter of the explosion and tales full damage from a direct hit.

RUE: pg 364
"Dodging Missiles. Dodging a missile or a missile volley is basically the same as a hand to hand combat dodge, basically the character needs to move to get out of the way and/or dive under protective cover.".............."HOWEVER, the character must run or dive out of the missile's blast radius to completely escape taking any damage."....."A small blast radius under 12 feet (3.6m) can be escaped with a single dodge action."


so basically, yes, you are shooting to impact the target, and dodging missiles still doesn't escape all damage in most cases. though it just puts you in the blast radius taking half damage, which can be reduced by rolling with impact...

so there is little reason not to allow a character to dodge 4 or more missiles.

as for shooting missiles down, here is the main problems. you can't hit them.
the penalties for shooting a moving target are on RUE pg361. summarized:
-1 for moving, with an additional minus one for every 50mpf it is moving over an initial 20mph.

so that means that missiles have the following penalties to be shot at:

Minimissile(speed): Penalty
------------------------------------------
HE, Frag, Smoke (500mph): -11
AP (1400mph): -29
Plasma (1200mph): -25

SRM's(speed): penalty
------------------------------------------
HE, Plasma (500mph): -11
Frag (450mph): -10
AP (650mph): -14
Smoke (300mph): -7
Fire-Retardant (200mph): -5

MRM's(speed): penalty
------------------------------------------
HE, Multi (1200mph): -25
Frag, Smoke (1000mph): -21
Plasma (1400mph): -29
AP (1600mph): -33

LRM's (speed): penalty
------------------------------------------
HE, AP, proton, Nuke (2010mph): -41
Frag, Plasma (1400mph): -29


so basically, unless your a munched out juicer, or roll a natural 20, you generally will not be able to hit missiles in flight. and since they move so fast, you will only get the one shot to try once they enter your own weapons range. (even a HE minimissile, at 500mph, moves at .138 miles per second, meaning it covers it's half mile range in only 4 seconds. which means only 1 melee attack. maybe 2, if your some highpowered out juicer with 10+ attacks...)


thus you need an alternative to just standing there and taking the hit, which is the only other alternative. allowing players to dodge 4+ missiles, even if at a penalty, means they have a chance to talk half damage, or 1/4th damage if they manage to dodge and roll with impact as well.

while in RIFTS this may not come up as much, for robotech is practically a required, sinceyou can OSK most alpha's or VF-1's using only a fraction of the missile payload on a Female power Armor or Invid command battloid... even in the new RPG.



the moveing target penalties are also why the CS's "wall of LRMs" air defense is not as impenetratable as purported.
a Skycastle moving at 800mph is -16 to strike. and missiles are subject to the same penalties to strike as guns, and missiles get at best the +3 or +5 of their seekers and whatever bonus from Wp heavy MDC weapons gives the firer. which is not likely to be over a +3 or +4 in most cases. so those missile batteries are still going to be shooting at a -10 to -7 to strike.

when you look at faster craft, like say the f-14 with its ability to go Mach 2.34 (1,544 mph), thats a -31 to strike. which means a ground battery needs a natural 20 to even hit the darn thing. and an F-14 can launch it's missile payload (in rifts thats 4 AIM-54 pheonix missiles and 6 LRM's) while at max speed, while hundreds of miles away. which means a strike at a CS base using a GAW F-14 carrying a half dozen Nuclear Multiwarhead LRM's can streak into CS airspace with no worry of being shot down, launch it's (faster!) missiles at the target, which also have no worry of being intercepted, and then RTB (return to base) without fear of ground to air fire....

and this is the kind of thing the CS was facing back in the PA 90's, with no CS jets and facing naruni crecent moons moving at mach 5 (something like 3860mph, or -78 to strike, wouldn't even have to slow down. trials with AAM's on the SR-71 showed that if the missile cleared the body of the plan fast enough, it didn't matter how fast it was going when launched...), and the Iron heart Grey Falcon, which while moving a mere mach 2 was still packing eight (faster) LRM's and had nothing to fear from ground fire at -31 to strike.

and note, most targets on the ground are stationary or really slow, with only a minor penalty to strike. thus airpower rules the battlefield by being uncatchable ( or as batletech players put it "speed is life"), and able to hit targets with a good degree of accuracy...

in this enviroment, the CS had to invest in high performance jets of their own to catch up and counter. and even after Iron heart was taken out of business and naruni mostly pushed out of the continent, the CS will continue to invest in high performance jets because now it means they have the advantage.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:50 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 2:01 am
Posts: 5808
Location: 25th Member of the "Cabal of 24"
Comment: Token Right Wing Fascist Totalitarian
"Never hit a man while he's down. Kick them, it's easier" - The Hunt
glitterboy2098 wrote:
as for shooting missiles down, here is the main problems. you can't hit them.the penalties for shooting a moving target are on RUE pg361. summarized:
-1 for moving, with an additional minus one for every 50mph it is moving over an initial 20mph.
Now I have not listened to the podcast, but this is a very interesting point. Now missiles shooting down missiles is tough - especially in Robotech, but not nigh impossible. The concept that I always use is that you may not do a 'direct hit' but the 'blast radius' is generally enough to destroy a missile. So trying to dodge 4 missiles may be tough - your still going to get hurt. I think that is where the rules really apply.

I agree there are tons of house rules out there on dodging more than 4 missiles. Giving penalties for every missile above 3, etc... But you just can't get away from the blast radius of these things. And in my games, maybe I am doing it wrong: If you dodge, you can't roll with impact... So in either case, your still taking half damage.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:51 am
  

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Palladium Books® Freelance Writer

Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2002 2:01 am
Posts: 3099
Location: LaPorte, In USA
Comment: The greatest part of the writer's time is spent in reading, in order to write: a man will turn over half a library to make one book. - Samuel Johnson, 1775
What Glitterboy is talking about is one of the reasons I started including the
modern conversions of actual missiles defense systems in most of the SCRET tech I've
created. Missile warning systems and anti-missile chaff, IRCM (Infrared
countermeasures), ECM (Electronic Counter Measures, and Deception Jamming all of
which is real stuff our militiary (especialy the Navy and Airforce) use to protect
our guys from missiles. And speaking of radar, if you ever get the chance read up on
the various types of radars we have (Aviation & Space Technology magazine). Let me
put it this way, between the multi-layers of radar used by our aircraft carriers they can
detect missiles coming at them (Target Acquisition Radar) even at super sonic speed
and a several miles away. Its also automatically linked to the phalanx system or 30mm
auto cannons. These guns shoot down missiles long before they get within a football
field distance away from the ship. Then you got other missiles like the Sea Sparrow
that can travel mach 4 and blow enemy missiles out of the sky. These radars are so
sensitive they can tell when its a missile or a pelican, that way the guns are shooting at sea gulls all day long.

I always thought the idea of shooting a missile with a pistol is kind of stupid. If a guy is
100 feet from you and he shoots a bazooka, unless your some sonic speed Clint
Eastwood character, there is no way your going to shoot any anti-tank round. I also
looked at the inability to dodge more than 4 like this, between the speed of the missiles
you where always to avoid three hitting you, but there just isn't enought time to get
away from the fourth. Not to mention unless you roll with punch or have incredible
speed your still caught in blast radius that enough to probably kill you.

Regardless of how cheap it is for the Coalition to churn out technology (I'm still trying
to figure out how their getting all the raw materials to do it, unless its Star Trex
replicate tech), if you go before a miltiary board trying to get your prototype
vehicle funded, your going to have to coinvince these guys, the Coalition need this
device. You're going to have to demonstrate the man power to keep it running, the
crews to operate it, its effectiveness, and so on. Now if your argument for this 5 million
credit aircraft is some one in the immediate unforseen future is going to attack us and
we need to keep it in storage until its necessary, is not going to fly. Look how many
projects our military cuts all the time because of various reasons. You're not going to
convince anyone to spend money for "incase" stuff happends. To many present day
enemies need to be protected against, not maybe or one day enemies to worry about.

Somehow I don't think an unforseen airforce is going to show up unless one has it in
his or her adventure, if so then have the Coalition build away, but as for offical cannon,
I just don't see it unless something changes in a future book and it becomes necessary
for a those type of aircraft. Even now the USA airforce has two sides complaining that
we don't have an aircraft capable of doing good air to air combat. The counter
argument, which country has an airforce that we need to worry about that we can't
destroy with stealth and long range attacks before it even gets off the ground or we
can engage at long range without a single fighter coming into contact with.

Wished I could have been online when you got where on the air, it was a great debate.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:25 pm
  

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Rifts® Trivia Master

Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
Posts: 13667
Location: Missouri
Tiree wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
as for shooting missiles down, here is the main problems. you can't hit them.the penalties for shooting a moving target are on RUE pg361. summarized:
-1 for moving, with an additional minus one for every 50mph it is moving over an initial 20mph.
Now I have not listened to the podcast, but this is a very interesting point. Now missiles shooting down missiles is tough - especially in Robotech, but not nigh impossible. The concept that I always use is that you may not do a 'direct hit' but the 'blast radius' is generally enough to destroy a missile. So trying to dodge 4 missiles may be tough - your still going to get hurt. I think that is where the rules really apply.

your right, a missile's blast radius will make the odds of detonating a full volley better, but the main problem is that because of the to strike penalty when shooting at incoming missiles, the odds of hitting them in the first place are slim. and unless you hit the incoming missile, whether your likely to blow up the volley or not isn't important.

and thats why i support the ability to dodge volleys of four or more, even if it only means taking half damage from a near miss. because the other options, like shooting them down, are highly unlikely.



Quote:
What Glitterboy is talking about is one of the reasons I started including the
modern conversions of actual missiles defense systems in most of the SCRET tech I've
created. Missile warning systems and anti-missile chaff, IRCM (Infrared
countermeasures), ECM (Electronic Counter Measures, and Deception Jamming all of
which is real stuff our militiary (especialy the Navy and Airforce) use to protect
our guys from missiles.

and i've been writing up similar systems for any moderntech+ aircraft and vehicles i write. often in the form of flare launchers and/or ECM on aircraft, which give the equivilent of an autododge with bonus only against missiles and missile volleys, regardless of size, or adds additional penalties to anyone trying to shoot missiles at the aircraft.
the mechanics seem to work well...

given that air combat occurs at reletively identical velocities (IE: i'm moving at 1000mph, your moving at 800mph. thus you only have to deal with a movement to strike penalty for 200mph..), it is much easier for other aircraft to stop aircraft.


Quote:
And speaking of radar, if you ever get the chance read up on
the various types of radars we have (Aviation & Space Technology magazine). Let me
put it this way, between the multi-layers of radar used by our aircraft carriers they can
detect missiles coming at them (Target Acquisition Radar) even at super sonic speed
and a several miles away. Its also automatically linked to the phalanx system or 30mm
auto cannons. These guns shoot down missiles long before they get within a football
field distance away from the ship. Then you got other missiles like the Sea Sparrow
that can travel mach 4 and blow enemy missiles out of the sky. These radars are so
sensitive they can tell when its a missile or a pelican, that way the guns are shooting at sea gulls all day long.


quite true. though i personally think that only having three point defense emplacements means that actual protection is more image than substance. in an actual shooting war you can swamp a carrier group's defenses with a fairly small amount of anti-ship missiles, with the "Missile Spam" being more than able to take out a thin hulled modern warship group. and unlike the Millennium Challenge 2002 wargame, there will be no referees to say "that wasn't in the script" and refloat the fleet.

but i would like to point out, just for completeness, that in real life the Phalanx and the Sea Sparrow are all tied into very complex and powerful targeting computers, while in rifts the carriers the CS has were apparently 'lobotomized', since they have no real bonuses to strike or powerful radars. which means the CS point defense can't actually hit any missiles coming their way....

oh hey, "open season on Coalition carrier groups! entry fee, one flight of Grey Falcons or equivilent! send notification of entry to 'Department of the navy', Quebec City, Free Quebec" :twisted:

_________________
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Co-author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
Image
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.

-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:57 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am
Posts: 1362
I've always rather thought that the intention is probably that a successful Read Sensory Equipment on any vehicle equipped with radar and a targeting computer probably negates the strike penalties for moving targets, or the entire system becomes untennable.

It's just another fault of the glomped-on nature of the Palladium system and how it makes little if any sense... .the penalties to strike never existed before, so there was no need to codify a rule on how to negate or lower them; then they were included (in a section cut-and-pasted from BTS2 that doesn't deal with high tech war machines at all) but no rule on how to negate or lower them was included.

They make the game nearly unplayable.

Also, as a nitpick:

glitterboy2098 wrote:
given that air combat occurs at reletively identical velocities (IE: i'm moving at 1000mph, your moving at 800mph. thus you only have to deal with a movement to strike penalty for 200mph..), it is much easier for other aircraft to stop aircraft.


It doesn't actually SAY anywhere that movement penalties are for relative speeds, that im aware of. Much like my assumption that RSI should negate them on war machines with combat computers, i think this is an assumption (and one i agree with, i might add) on your part that isnt actually covered in the rules anywhere.

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