How to handle river of lava ?

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How to handle river of lava ?

Unread post by tmbn »

:?

I have a Wizard in my playing group (PC) and he has obtained the river og lava spell. The problem now is that he can kill every foe he want's (outside) by using this spell underneath their feet. The only challange for him now is other wizards. This is kind of booring since all my bad guys hafto have resistent to fire, fly or levitate. But I can't have all my bad guys installed with this. How do you GM's cope with this spell ? The Wizard can end a fight very fast with this spell. Is the spell to powerfull ?
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Re: How to handle river of lava ?

Unread post by JTwig »

tmbn wrote::?

I have a Wizard in my playing group (PC) and he has obtained the river og lava spell. The problem now is that he can kill every foe he want's (outside) by using this spell underneath their feet. The only challange for him now is other wizards. This is kind of booring since all my bad guys hafto have resistent to fire, fly or levitate. But I can't have all my bad guys installed with this. How do you GM's cope with this spell ? The Wizard can end a fight very fast with this spell. Is the spell to powerfull ?


Take into account collateral damage. If he uses the spell inside of a village/town/city there will be consequence. If he is of good alignment and uses the spell in such an environment there possibly could be innocents caught in the spell radius, not to mention that just for the destruction of property alone he could be branded a fugitive with possibly an entire kingdom gunning for him. Conversely if he uses it only in non-settled/civilized areas, maybe there is a group of Druids who become upset with is wanton disregard for nature.
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Unread post by Reagren Wright »

A nice major grass/forest fire that burns up the surrounding area sounds
nice or have a minor fire or lava elemental come out of the spell on
random probability rolls, say there is a 01-13%+1% per level of the
character. Anyway, River of Lava is a warlock spell, just how did he
get it as a Wizard spell anyway? And even if he did get it somehow
because its a class specific spell it should cost him extra PPE to cast (at
least 50% or double).
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Unread post by Jefram_denkar »

How to take down a wizard out of control

Ambushes - Do not give him a chance to cast the spell, if he gets stuck in close combat no way would he have the time to cast the spell.

Ranged Attacks - Long Bowmen are your friend here. It is kind of hard to case spells if yuur a pin cusion. (for extra fun try some of the more exotic poisons that do not kill but inflict strange effects on the victoms.

Mind Mage - If the Wizard has pissed of some one powerful. Have that person hire a Mind Mage to remove that little spell from his mind. Other uses Mind Mage have in this case include Bio-Manipulation (It is hard to target when blind or paralysed), Telekinesis Super (Big Boulder Vs Little Mage. Guess who wins???), and Mentally Possess Other (kind of hard to use your magic when your not in control).

Warlock - If he wants to play with elemental power, then show him what it is like to be on the business end of some by the real masters of it.

Another Wizard- More fun to be had with spells like Mute, Blind, Agony, Compulsion (the compulsion is not to cast magic for the entire day), Globe of Slience, and other simple but effect spells to run rough over him.
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Unread post by Carl Gleba »

Looks like everyone covered everything pretty well :ok:

I can only add don't group all your bad guys together. Spread them out so that maybe the ROL can only get one or two at most. Also ambushes where the bad guys are right on top of the players so the wizard can't cast the spell without hitting his allies. Game mechanic wise I might even allow a dodge if the spell was abused. Yes it says saving throw none, but as a GM you can rule that yes the lava bursts out of the ground underneath say one or two bad guys and then gushes in the desired direction. One or two foes were surprised and the rest get a dodge. It fair in that their still using an action to evade the attack.

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Unread post by Lucas »

if i was in a party with this guy i would bring lots of uncooked food waste not want not :D
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Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, as everyone has said it's a powerful spell but it isn't that useful. It's immensely destructive and it doesn't discriminate. When is a mage really going to use that spell? If he's a certain distance away from a group of known enemies, with nothing else of value nearby.

I also wonder how the mage has access to the Warlock spell.

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Unread post by tmbn »

Thank you for many good answers!

First: In 1 st. edition of the rule book the wizard is allowed to get alot of warlock spells. Not all but some. We still use this rulebook when we play.

Second: Thanks for many good answers. I will absolutt try to use ambush more. I allready allowed Foes to use resistent to fire on the spell and flying or levitate will avoid the spell with minor damage. Teleport and cocoon of stone is also good defense spell against the horror.
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Unread post by bigbobsr6000 »

Not to mention the forest folk will be really ticked off at the wonton destruction. To include all peoples who live and depend on the land to survive. Lava and forest fires will get alot of attention from these groups. Will also drive away forest creatures from the area. Bad JuJu.
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Unread post by verdilak »

Flying always trumps this spell... but yea the others above me pretty much kicked it in the butt.
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Re: How to handle river of lava ?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

tmbn wrote::?

I have a Wizard in my playing group (PC) and he has obtained the river og lava spell. The problem now is that he can kill every foe he want's (outside) by using this spell underneath their feet. The only challange for him now is other wizards. This is kind of booring since all my bad guys hafto have resistent to fire, fly or levitate. But I can't have all my bad guys installed with this. How do you GM's cope with this spell ? The Wizard can end a fight very fast with this spell. Is the spell to powerfull ?


OMG how did your wizard get a Elemental Fire spell? That sounds like you ether have a liberal GM... or .... could it be?..... you actully have a WARLOCK?
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Unread post by Library Ogre »

According to page 60 of my PFRPG Revised, River of Lava is an 8th level Wizard Spell.
-overproduced by Martin Hannett

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Unread post by verdilak »

drewkitty, as the OP stated

tmbn wrote:
First: In 1 st. edition of the rule book the wizard is allowed to get alot of warlock spells. Not all but some. We still use this rulebook when we play.

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Unread post by The Beast »

Have a warlock do the same to the wizard, and then next time don't give him the spell.
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Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

verdilak wrote:drewkitty, as the OP stated

tmbn wrote:
First: In 1 st. edition of the rule book the wizard is allowed to get alot of warlock spells. Not all but some. We still use this rulebook when we play.



Okay I did a bad thing, I didn't read all of the posts before mine.
Guess I was soo...utterly flabergated I had to post a knee jerk reaction.

But I was right, he has a liberal GM/group.

But he also didn't state that little house rule in his 1st post. That would of stopped the 'OMG what hericy is this?' type posts.
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Unread post by verdilak »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
verdilak wrote:drewkitty, as the OP stated

tmbn wrote:
First: In 1 st. edition of the rule book the wizard is allowed to get alot of warlock spells. Not all but some. We still use this rulebook when we play.



Okay I did a bad thing, I didn't read all of the posts before mine.
Guess I was soo...utterly flabergated I had to post a knee jerk reaction.

But I was right, he has a liberal GM/group.

But he also didn't state that little house rule in his 1st post. That would of stopped the 'OMG what hericy is this?' type posts.


Perhaps, but as Kevin would tell you, Palladium and Rifts can hold anything you want.
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Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

verdilak wrote:snip...

Perhaps, but as Kevin would tell you, Palladium and Rifts can hold anything you want.


You mean anything is possible in the Palladium system. Rifts is just one setting of palladium, not another system; just like the PFRPG world is another Palladium setting.

Just blame the teacher in my life for making me a stickler on grammar and not liking unclear sentences.
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Unread post by verdilak »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
verdilak wrote:snip...

Perhaps, but as Kevin would tell you, Palladium and Rifts can hold anything you want.


You mean anything is possible in the Palladium system. Rifts is just one setting of palladium, not another system; just like the PFRPG world is another Palladium setting.

Just blame the teacher in my life for making me a stickler on grammar and not liking unclear sentences.


I mean anything is possible in Palladium (Fantasy) and Rifts.
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Re: How to handle river of lava ?

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tmbn wrote::?

I have a Wizard in my playing group (PC) and he has obtained the river og lava spell. The problem now is that he can kill every foe he want's (outside) by using this spell underneath their feet. The only challange for him now is other wizards. This is kind of booring since all my bad guys hafto have resistent to fire, fly or levitate. But I can't have all my bad guys installed with this. How do you GM's cope with this spell ? The Wizard can end a fight very fast with this spell. Is the spell to powerfull ?


Negate magic, Globe of Silence, Anti-Magic Cloud, Float, Fly, Instilled required Dodge checks are all options, I'd throw some lava elementals at him, or some GM created monster that feeds off lava to grow just to throw him for a loop and make sure he thought enough to leave himself a backup weapon and to remind him of a bit of humility.
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Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

verdilak wrote:
I mean anything is possible in Palladium (Fantasy) and Rifts.


Why bring rifts into the conversation at all? This is the PF forum? Since Rifts is the younger spoiled brat of a brother to PF.


As for sujesting what to do since your char has become high powered, Retire him and make a new char.

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Unread post by Jerell »

verdilak wrote:Perhaps, but as Kevin would tell you, Palladium and Rifts can hold anything you want.



:ok:

Woot! I agree with that statement.



Here is an old saying from the Old Kingdom Ogre tribes, "Everyone has a plan, until they get kicked in the head."
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Unread post by Marcethus »

Here is an old saying from the Old Kingdom Ogre tribes, "Everyone has a plan, until they get kicked in the head."




ROFLMAO :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Unread post by Jerell »

:lol:

Yes, never under estimate what a peasant mob at the right place and the right time can do. Have them ambush them during an evening meal somewhere, that'll learn 'em!



:lol: Those Old Kingdom tribes are real characters
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Unread post by Jerell »

Yes. The dice often have their own plans, and care not for the characters or the GM. This is why one of my players insist on doing a 'luck rub' on his Kevin S. signature, before games he thinks will have a major battle. Awareness of surroundings is keep to any battle.

I have to say I don't think any group is unmanageble, some groups just take a lot more to manage. The way I like to look at it, is whatever the players stand for, there is like group/organization or being like in power that should be on par with their power and give them a good showing. Even the gawds have nemisis to fight.
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Re: How to handle river of lava ?

Unread post by tmbn »

I am back at this thread. Thank you for all the great answers by the way! I have managed to constrain this a little bit. Also I adjusted to be used only outside where its earth. Could not be used in a second floor castle etc.

I see that a lot of the answers talks about the Lava hitting their own and being dangerous. But arent the Wizard capable to controlling the size of the Lava to the smallest size ? Also I see this spell is tremendous fighting one on one. Giving your foe something like this during battle is crazy. And without a saving throw!
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Re: How to handle river of lava ?

Unread post by kiralon »

its nastier in second ed than first ed as it kills outright in second ed unless you are a major power, but a first ed fire warlock with burst into flame and minifireball will blow the wizard into little chunky bits, buut
i'd attack him in a river, on a boat or with demons/devils as they are mostly fire resistant/immune.
or faeries as they mostly fly
Or a thief sneaks up to him point blank and casts
or he gets attack from uphill, lava goes up, then comes back down
or a summoned fire elemental,
or for a bit of fun let him hit a something with a wand of lava golem creation, and all it needs is lava.
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Re: How to handle river of lava ?

Unread post by The Beast »

Out of curiosity, how did this work out for you tmbn?
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Re: How to handle river of lava ?

Unread post by zyanitevp »

Oh, and there is a great anti-fire spell/item in MOM.
Flame Consuming Gem p. 88
Now try and do River of Lava.... just laugh and go hunt the mage down....
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Re: How to handle river of lava ?

Unread post by Library Ogre »

A bit of a D&D-ism, but applies in PF, too...

Always spread out to avoid the Area of Effect.
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Unread post by Lukterran »

Veknironth wrote:Well, as everyone has said it's a powerful spell but it isn't that useful. It's immensely destructive and it doesn't discriminate. When is a mage really going to use that spell? If he's a certain distance away from a group of known enemies, with nothing else of value nearby.

I also wonder how the mage has access to the Warlock spell.

-Vek
"What about the Lamp of Lava?"


You of all people I would expect to know who a wizard could get this spell. One it used to be on the wizard spell list in 1st edition. Secondly it could have been a magic scroll created by a creature (Perhaps a god, dragon, that could cast both elemental and normal incantation magic liek River of Lava. That scroll was later converted by the wizard.
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Re: How to handle river of lava ?

Unread post by tmbn »

The Beast wrote:Out of curiosity, how did this work out for you tmbn?


Well, I am trying to do all of these things and it helps and restricts a little bit when they fight groups I dont really care about. Actually last mission I had to apply nexus lines with "no magic" to make the game more fun. The big problem is One on One. The Wizard or the Warlock could instantly kill a Villain with this spell. That makes it little boring. Therefor most of my class villains have resist fire or impervious to fire. I guess all smart villains would have this implemented on their armor.
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Re: How to handle river of lava ?

Unread post by Lukterran »

tmbn wrote:
The Beast wrote:Out of curiosity, how did this work out for you tmbn?


Well, I am trying to do all of these things and it helps and restricts a little bit when they fight groups I dont really care about. Actually last mission I had to apply nexus lines with "no magic" to make the game more fun. The big problem is One on One. The Wizard or the Warlock could instantly kill a Villain with this spell. That makes it little boring. Therefor most of my class villains have resist fire or impervious to fire. I guess all smart villains would have this implemented on their armor.


You're villians really have to be one dimensional if you can't think of a way for NPC/Villians to deal with river of lava.

How weak is your main villian if this spell instantly kills them? How poorly defended? I would assume that the heros would have to make it through lesser mobs of monsters and other castle/dungeon defenders to get to your primary villian. You could spread out the layout of the dungeon so this spell doesn't destroy everything in one casting. Make the heros burn through their PPE with a number of small encounters first before they face your main villian is another trick, so they don't have the PPE to cast the spell.

Where does this villian live out if a straw hut in the middle of a pasture? First the characters have to know where the villian is in order to effect him with a this spell. Which means locating him in a complex or building. Maybe the villian wasn't located in the section the river was cast upon or he just barely jumped out of range to safety. Is he in a city or town (negate conquences from using RoL in an place like this)

Perhaps this villian could have innocent hostages in the area near him locked up in cages? So if the party used such a destructive area affect spell they would also kill the hostages.

Does this villian have access to protective magics? Perhaps some energy drain wards on the wall. Or perhaps this villians lair has silence or sancturary in effect? Perhaps he has a talisman of negate magic, just encase someone uses such a spell agaisnt him.

Any flight spell or power will protect your from River of Lava. Does the villian have allies or underlings with flight ability? A harpy or Demon Owl?

Or think outside the box the normal PF book items and create a specific magic or thing that would effect the players negatively for casting this spell. Example: "Locked away hidden in the old dwarven tome you find the lair of the necromancer. Numerous bodies have been violated by the dark magic. Behind the death mage is a large statue of the dwarven lords that rest in this tome." - So you could have the Dwarven builders of the tome have locked away a powerful force inside the statue that will be unleashed if the tome itself is damaged by harmful magic (aka the River of Lava).

You just have to do some thinking and there are a lot of ways to stop players from spamming massive destructive area effect spells like RoL.
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Re: How to handle river of lava ?

Unread post by tmbn »

Lukterran wrote:
tmbn wrote:
The Beast wrote:Out of curiosity, how did this work out for you tmbn?


Well, I am trying to do all of these things and it helps and restricts a little bit when they fight groups I dont really care about. Actually last mission I had to apply nexus lines with "no magic" to make the game more fun. The big problem is One on One. The Wizard or the Warlock could instantly kill a Villain with this spell. That makes it little boring. Therefor most of my class villains have resist fire or impervious to fire. I guess all smart villains would have this implemented on their armor.


You're villians really have to be one dimensional if you can't think of a way for NPC/Villians to deal with river of lava.

How weak is your main villian if this spell instantly kills them? How poorly defended? I would assume that the heros would have to make it through lesser mobs of monsters and other castle/dungeon defenders to get to your primary villian. You could spread out the layout of the dungeon so this spell doesn't destroy everything in one casting. Make the heros burn through their PPE with a number of small encounters first before they face your main villian is another trick, so they don't have the PPE to cast the spell.

Where does this villian live out if a straw hut in the middle of a pasture? First the characters have to know where the villian is in order to effect him with a this spell. Which means locating him in a complex or building. Maybe the villian wasn't located in the section the river was cast upon or he just barely jumped out of range to safety. Is he in a city or town (negate conquences from using RoL in an place like this)

Perhaps this villian could have innocent hostages in the area near him locked up in cages? So if the party used such a destructive area affect spell they would also kill the hostages.

Does this villian have access to protective magics? Perhaps some energy drain wards on the wall. Or perhaps this villians lair has silence or sancturary in effect? Perhaps he has a talisman of negate magic, just encase someone uses such a spell agaisnt him.

Any flight spell or power will protect your from River of Lava. Does the villian have allies or underlings with flight ability? A harpy or Demon Owl?

Or think outside the box the normal PF book items and create a specific magic or thing that would effect the players negatively for casting this spell. Example: "Locked away hidden in the old dwarven tome you find the lair of the necromancer. Numerous bodies have been violated by the dark magic. Behind the death mage is a large statue of the dwarven lords that rest in this tome." - So you could have the Dwarven builders of the tome have locked away a powerful force inside the statue that will be unleashed if the tome itself is damaged by harmful magic (aka the River of Lava).

You just have to do some thinking and there are a lot of ways to stop players from spamming massive destructive area effect spells like RoL.


4-24+10 in 6-8 melees plus 3-18 will surely kill many foes, if not ruin them totally. Yes, I agree with you. As I said most of my villains now have resist fire or as you was saying negate magic, Fly, levitate, cocoon of stone or other defensive spells to match this. Its just to sad that everybody needs this. I am also trying to spice things up now and then when they use the lava. Like you said, activating more foes or forces. Fire Elemental is one thing.

Anyaway! Thanks for the input. I will use more of your tips! Grateful!
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Re: How to handle river of lava ?

Unread post by kiralon »

Give one of the bad guys plasma sponge, he sucks all the heat out of the lava and shoots it back at them, or put a wall up in front of ROL caster for backwash effect, and of course getting fire immune monkeys to throw lava poo at them would be amusing too.
The second ed version of river of lava kills outright, unless you are a powerful supernatural entity and you take 2d4x10 per round.
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Re: How to handle river of lava ?

Unread post by tmbn »

kiralon wrote:Give one of the bad guys plasma sponge, he sucks all the heat out of the lava and shoots it back at them, or put a wall up in front of ROL caster for backwash effect, and of course getting fire immune monkeys to throw lava poo at them would be amusing too.
The second ed version of river of lava kills outright, unless you are a powerful supernatural entity and you take 2d4x10 per round.


Yes! Thank you Kiralon! One of the problems is that the foe is already in the Lava. Then its too late. But Fire immune monkeys sounds great! :x
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Re: How to handle river of lava ?

Unread post by sHaka »

Perhaps it's about time this party went on a little jaunt to Hades?
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Re: How to handle river of lava ?

Unread post by sHaka »

....failing a Hades trip.. anyone have any suggested modifications to the spell to make it slightly less game stealing?

Does the spell (I'm at work) detail how quickly the river appears? Is it a case of one second, open plains, next second instant lava pit? Maybe it could be house-ruled to originate from a designated source point within range and flow, lava-style, to it's maximum extent?

This would give foes the chance to get out of the way/take flight etc, not to mention making the spell more dramatic and foreboding.. But the spell would still be a effective against large numbers of troops (even if it's just getting them to scatter/break ranks) or for any other crazy utilitarian end a player can put a river of lava to...
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Unread post by Tor »

tmbn wrote:First: In 1 st. edition of the rule book the wizard is allowed to get alot of warlock spells. Not all but some. We still use this rulebook when we play.

Sounds good to me.

Mark Hall wrote:According to page 60 of my PFRPG Revised, River of Lava is an 8th level Wizard Spell.

I presumed this means PRPG revised, since F was added in the 2nd, after the Revised.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:the PFRPG world is another Palladium setting.

PFRPG includes many worlds, Hades being one of them, although most did not get mentioned until Dragons and Gods.

The central world of course having the name 'the Palladium world' or something along those lines.

So while there are many Palladium (Books) worlds, and any planet in the Megaverse could be called a Palladium (Books) world, there is only one 'the Palladium world' :)

Or perhaps two, if one accepts my 'PRPG/PRPGR and PF2nd are separate realities' explanation for differences.

*wonders how much of a difference there is between PRPG and PRPGrev*
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dogfaceboy wrote:After a few lynch mobs chase him down for desrtroying their croplands/hunting grounds/livestock patures I wouldn't expect him to use arbitrarily. Haven't had this problem? Just add a light population within 10 miles of your next OMG encounter and let him meet the local druids, their woodland goodtiming buddies, and the local villagers. ACTION=REACTION :)


even better.. have the mob be lead by a (good aligned) law enforcement agent for the local kingdom.. the whole group being out to arrest the 'evil guy who's been burning the crops' to bring him before a judge..

unless your group is mostly evil alignments, that should help forstall thoughts of fighting their way out.. and it should add some RP elements to the affair by bringing in trials. magic being what it is in PFRPG, i'd imagine most legal systems use magic to divine the truth of events and witnesses.. if the use of the spell was truely justified, the mage will get off lightly (perhaps just 'suitable compensation' to be paid out or some 'off-screen' community service time).. but if it was not justified (used against a target that didn't need that level of smackdown to defeat) the wizard would likely end up paying a steeper price.. (being an RPG, this could be a lead in to a new adventure.. the judge offering a deal to avoid harsh penalties as long as the group goes on a specific dangerous quest.. with law-enforcement dude along for the trip as a witness/parole officer..)
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Re: How to handle river of lava ?

Unread post by Tor »

Maybe to avoid being surprise-lava'd, important villains will stay out of plain view much of the time, or be capable of flight.
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