attacks per melee?

[PrfSknk]

I'm starting a fantasy adventure and noticed that the attacks per melee seems to change in the later books. An example in the Old Ones the average third lv npc had two to three attacks, but in Eastern Territory the attacks seem to increase. There is a third lv Ranger who has 4 attacks.
Did PFRPG switch over to the Rifts attack per melee system, and what do you guys do to even out this proplem?

[Rpgpunk]

You get 2 attacks for basicly being alive and your attacks from your HtH. The boxing skill will also give you an extra attack.

[PrfSknk]

But in the PFRPG it states people with no hth only get one attack.

[J. Lionheart]

Later books added a "2 for living" rule. People without hand to hand combat training get 1 attack, or 2 non-combat actions per melee.

[Levi]

I think a large number of PF GMs (including myself) ignore the 2 attacks for living. This makes life a lot easier. If you do ignore that rule, just reduce the number of attacks by 2 for any NPCs you use out of later books.

[Killer Cyborg]

But in the PFRPG it states people with no hth only get one attack.

Yeah, it says that in Rifts as well.

[Dr. Doom III]

But in the PFRPG it states people with no hth only get one attack.

That's because you do.

You only get the , erroneously called "two attacks for living" if you have a hand to hand skill.

[drewkitty ~..~]

You get 2 attacks for basicly being alive and your attacks from your HtH. The boxing skill will also give you an extra attack.

You are Absolutly Wronge in saying that chars get two attacks for being alive IN PF:RPG.

You only get what the HTH says you get...just like in NSS.
Yes you can get another with Boxing.

But that will only get you Three APM to start with basic, Expert, and Paliden hths.

[Guest]

But in the PFRPG it states people with no hth only get one attack.

That's because you do.

You only get the , erroneously called "two attacks for living" if you have a hand to hand skill.

Ironic.

The when did they get called 'Two attacks for living' first btw?

[drewkitty ~..~]

But in the PFRPG it states people with no hth only get one attack.

That's because you do.

You only get the , erroneously called "two attacks for living" if you have a hand to hand skill.

No Doom, they DO NOT get 2 APM for living. The 2 attacks stated in hth are because you can fight better, not because you add them to anything.

Doom, you are loosing your credibility as a rules lawyer with "Being Wronge" like in that last post.

The 2APM for living was interpulated from an editing error from the rifts main book.

[drewkitty ~..~]

But in the PFRPG it states people with no hth only get one attack.

That's because you do.

You only get the , erroneously called "two attacks for living" if you have a hand to hand skill.

Ironic.

The when did they get called 'Two attacks for living' first btw?

They didn't, The All knowing Rules Lawer called doom got it totally wronge. There are no 2 apm for living in PFRPG.

[Narsis]

Actually Drewkitty the 2 attacks/actions for living was in first edition Palladium main book. Most people still go by that rule. So, your wrong. As for it being in the second edition i haven't found yet.

[Guest]

I will check around for it.

It seems like some NPC's have them, and some don't...which is quite odd.

[Killer Cyborg]

But in the PFRPG it states people with no hth only get one attack.

That's because you do.

You only get the , erroneously called "two attacks for living" if you have a hand to hand skill.

No Doom, they DO NOT get 2 APM for living. The 2 attacks stated in hth are because you can fight better, not because you add them to anything.

Doom, you are loosing your credibility as a rules lawyer with "Being Wronge" like in that last post.

The 2APM for living was interpulated from an editing error from the rifts main book.

He knows all that.
People online refer to those two attacks as "Two attacks for living" and he is pointing out that this isn't accurate.
People often also believe that anybody without HTH skills still get 2 attacks per melee, which Doom is also agreeing is not the case.

[Dr. Doom III]

But in the PFRPG it states people with no hth only get one attack.

That's because you do.

You only get the , erroneously called "two attacks for living" if you have a hand to hand skill.

Ironic.

The when did they get called 'Two attacks for living' first BTW?

It was never called that in a book.
Someone on the boards called those two attacks "two attacks for living" and the name unfortunately stuck.

[Killer Cyborg]

But in the PFRPG it states people with no hth only get one attack.

That's because you do.

You only get the , erroneously called "two attacks for living" if you have a hand to hand skill.

Ironic.

The when did they get called 'Two attacks for living' first BTW?

It was never called that in a book.
Someone on the boards called those two attacks "two attacks for living" and the name unfortunately stuck.

It's not an entirely accurate name, but it's more succint than "Those bogus two attacks that showed up out of nowhere and then Palladium claimed that they had always been there, even though the writers themselves never used them in the early books"....

[Dr. Doom III]

It's not an entirely accurate name, but it's more succint than "Those bogus two attacks that showed up out of nowhere and then Palladium claimed that they had always been there, even though the writers themselves never used them in the early books"....

Yes it is entirely inaccurate since living people with no hand to hand skill don't get them any undead or robots with one do.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's not an entirely accurate name, but it's more succint than "Those bogus two attacks that showed up out of nowhere and then Palladium claimed that they had always been there, even though the writers themselves never used them in the early books"....

Yes it is entirely inaccurate since living people with no hand to hand skill don't get them any undead or robots with one do.

There are two attack though...

[Guest]

So you two agree there are two attacks.

So you don't have to drag this out for 5 full pages, right?


Wait...KC and Doom agreed on something....this can't be good.

[Necrite]

If you want to point out weird stuff about it... Look at TMNT. Two attacks for being a mutant animal. All Mutant animals get two extra attacks, whether they have training or not -- and one education level gives you those two, plus two EXTRA, plus any for HtH and Boxing - up to 7 at first level.

Humans, on the other hand, never get the two bonus attacks, regardless of their training. And the stat blocks for NPCs actually add up properly based on this.

In TMNT Adventures, there's even a human cyborg with no HtH who has one whole attack per melee. Yes, he's supposed to get beaten up easily.

[Guest]

Unfortunately, somewhere between Ninja's and Superspies, someone got lost.

If they would just write them all out like N&SS Martial Arts, it would be fine.

If it would just clarify, 2 Attacks Total to start, or 4 Attacks total to start...me, since 15 seconds in a fight is a while, and we are above average heroes in this game, I'd say go with the 5 attacks (4 to start from HTH:Martial Arts, +1 boxing) til further notice.

[J. Lionheart]

So which is it? (Assume HtH: Martial Arts, Boxing and the 2 for living rule)

3 Attacks per Melee

or

5 Attacks per Melee?

Me personally? I would go with 5. That would be the number according those rules you cite.

As Edge said, 15 seconds is a looooong time, and if it weren't for the fact it would be a pain to handle as a GM, a more realistic number would be like 10-15 attacks per melee.

[drewkitty ~..~]

So which is it? (Assume HtH: Martial Arts, Boxing and the 2 for living rule)

3 Attacks per Melee

or

5 Attacks per Melee?

In PFRPG is L1 HTH+boxing=3 apm

[Dr. Doom III]

So which is it? (Assume HtH: Martial Arts, Boxing and the 2 for living rule)

3 Attacks per Melee

or

5 Attacks per Melee?

5 now.

The "purists" will still say 3 but they are living in the past.

[Killer Cyborg]

So which is it? (Assume HtH: Martial Arts, Boxing and the 2 for living rule)

3 Attacks per Melee

or

5 Attacks per Melee?

5 now.

The "purists" will still say 3 but they are living in the past.

Agreed.

(Not that there's anything wrong with living in the past... we used to do that all the time, in the good old days... dagnabbit.)

[Rimmer]

Doom and Killer Cyborg both agreeing on a point

Therefore it must be gospel

[The Beast]

TMNT (7th printing) page 68, & HU (2nd printing) page 41:

All heroes get at least TWO attacks per melee. combined with the two from Hand to Hand: Expert it gives you a total of four.

BTS (5th printing) page 46 & Rifts (4th printing) page 37:

All player characters automatically start off with two attacks/actions per melee. Additional attacks per melee are gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing.

PFRPG (1st printing, 2nd edition) page 48:

Most player characters start off with two attacks per melee. Additional attacks per melee are gained from the hand to hand combat experieance and from the boxing skill, special bonus, or magic.

HU (1st printing, 2nd edition) page 71:

Remember, all heroes and villans automatically have two attacks per melee before they aqquire combat training.

1 = Not trying to point out anyone being right or wrong. I'm just quoting from the books I have in front of me.
2 = I don't see that rule in my Robotech book, and I'm not digging through the others, or the N&S, or the NS books.
3= I used to have the 1st edition PFRPG but don't anymore, so I can't quote from it, as I don't remember the rules for it.
4= The following is my interpetation of the above rules.

All the players will have a minimum of 2 APR. This also means the rule should be called: Two For Being a Player's Character.
The GM may allow NPCs to have the extra attacks/actions to those he sees fit. I limit this to important NPCs and the final boss/villain/whatever.
None of my books say that the owner can't change/modify rules as he sees fit, so if any GMs have a problem with this rule (or others) then change it! Any player that has a problem with it should debate the GM on the matter, preferably in front of the other players, as to why the GM likes/hates it, but drop the matter if the GM says "This is how I'm playing". Hopefully you GM will listen to you before saying that, but he is the GM, his word is final

Sidenote: No one that I first started playing with noticed that rule in the Rifts book until I happened to see it one night while reading it. I thought the main GM was holding out on us, but he didn't believed me until I pointed it out to him. We then began looking through, and seeing it in the other books.

[Goliath Strongarm]

PFRPG (1st printing, 2nd edition) page 48:

Most player characters start off with two attacks per melee. Additional attacks per melee are gained from the hand to hand combat experieance and from the boxing skill, special bonus, or magic.

Well, you obviously didn't read it too well. I searched, and found the part you MISquoted.

"Most player characters start off with two attacks per melee. Additional attacks per melee may be aquired as one advances in hand to hand combat experience and from the boxing skill, special bonuses, or magic."

Some things I want to point out:
1) MOST player characters start off with 2 apm. Very true. Most PCs have HtH skill, right? Starts them off with 2 attacks (except HtH assassin, which MOST don't have).
2) Here's where your quote was wrong. Additional attacks MAY BE AQUIRED AS ONE ADVANCES in HtH, etc. Not FROM HtH, but as one advances. That tells me the previous statement was already including their HtH at level 1.


Now, just for fun, I'd like to point out something thats just the very next sentance after your misquote, yet somehow you seemed to miss.

"The average person, NOT TRAINED IN COMBAT, will have only one attack per melee round". The nice caps are my doing, not from the book. I just wanted to stress those words. THIS shows that people not trained in combat have *1* attack. Not 2 just for being there. One.

Now, let's turn back to page 46. There, on the left side of the page, is a small little block labeled "No Hand to Hand Combat Skill". Let's see what IT has to say.

"Characters wuth no combat training get only one attack per melee at level's one, six, and 12."

Does this tell me that they get 3 attacks? Sure, at level 12. Does this tell me they get 2 attacks? At level 6. It says they get *1* attack at level 1.

--
GS

"Feel free to go cry in your Cheerios"-Me

[The Beast]

Yes, you're right. I missed that part after reading all the other ones I quoted. Also I had left out the other part because

The player characters in the Palladium World are not Joe Average.

.


Mantis

People always try to justify the amount of attacks by saying in RL they can throw many punches in 15 seconds. Yet no one ever talks about the defense time.

That's because with HtH training parries don't use any attacks/actions.

[Goliath Strongarm]

That boils down to an action every 1.5 seconds. That's pretty darn incredible.

ESPECIALLY when you consider that, if the char is a knight/palladin/damage sponge, alot of times that action every 1.5 seconds is going to be in platemail, swinging a weapon like a large sword, or axe, etc. I'd like to see anyone here do that. Sure, you might pull it off once or twice... keep it up for 15 seconds. Then do it another 15. I bet 99% of you can't.

Now, add in that those aren't just wild swings. They are looking for an opening, and THEN attacking, pulling the weapon back, and being ready to swing your weapon AGAIN in order to block the incoming attack. If you have a stationary target that's not attempting to dodge or parry, it'll still be difficult. Add in someone fighting back? HA!

--
GS

[Veknironth]

Well, I am resolutely against PC's having 2 more attacks than NPC's. An NPC takes the same training as a PC and yet they are only half as effective? No thanks. I'll seperate my character from the NPC's by daring, cleverness, and action. I always considered that "not the average Joe" bit to mean a longbowman is not your average farmer or shopkeep. I don't think it means a PC longbowman is inherantly better than an NCP longbowman.

That said, it doesn't really matter whether or not you use the 2 for living rule. On a side note, I think I might have been the one who coined that. Although, Levi seems to think he was using it long before the boards were even here. Fie on you Levi, I put it on the boards first! Unless someone else did, that is. I digress.

IF you apply either rule universally it won't have a huge impact. IF you give humanoids 2 attacks for living then add them on for training, you will weaken mages and creatures with no training. That's the only real effect you'll have. Also, you'll roll for initiative less.

The problem is the game didn't originally give you 2 for living, as GS points out. In later books (i.e. Rifts books) they just decided to start giving the characters more attacks. I don't know why. However, it was placed into later books and Palladium Fantasy books that came out after this shift reflect that in the NPC's. So, you can find characters in the Palladium Main book who don't have the 2 extra attacks and in books like Mt Nimro or whatever, the NPC's do have them. Essentially, you have to make a decision on how you want to do it and then audit NPC's to make sure it all matches up.

-Vek
"Maybe they can put a disclaimer about this in the upcoming Mysteries of MAgic Book."

-Vek
"

[Giddoen]

Heye Mantis ii am doing the same thing for the most part. I just give everyone what the oCC/RCC and HTH skill give that is all.

Commoners/npc's get one if they are not combat trained. So joe Farmer with his shovel only gets one attack per round unless he spent some time inthe army or as a merc before he became a farmer!

Also for me it speeds up combat! Instead of the 6 attackes per round it's now 2-4 at best.

Just my 2 cents.

ps love your siite!.

Giddoen

[Veknironth]

Well, this is the one pet peeve of mine. I'm not attacking you Giddeon. It's just that I think adding the 2 for living actually shortens combat. To end combat you need a certain #of strike rolls to connect and do a certain amount of damage. That's all. If it takes 5 attacks, it takes 5 attacks regardless of how many rounds it takes to land those 5 attacks. It all of those attacks take place in 1 round, then it's faster than if they take place in multiple rounds since you don't have to reroll initiative. Now, it may make combat simpler, since you don't have to keep track of as many attacks in a round, but it doesn't make it faster.

-Vek
"Just a pet peeve, nothing against Gid."

[Killer Cyborg]

I talked to KS about the TAFL at GenCon.
He said that they're relatively new. They apply to PCs and NPCs alike.

I also bought Rifts Conversion Book Revised at Gencon.
After describing how the number of attacks currently works, (p. 13) it says:

"Game Designer Note: This was not originally the case when I first designed the game system. back then the character got only the number of attacks provided by the Hand to Hand skill (2), plus those gained from experience in that skill and any possible OCC bonus. A lot of people seem to prefer fewer attacks per round than more. That's okay. If that's what you like, start with only the two from Hand to hand combat skills and forget about the other two. Role-playing is flexible, go with what you, as GM, feel most comfortable with. I only increased the starting number (four instead of two) because it seemed more realistic for adventurers who are trained in combat (including adventurers who need to know how to handle themselves in the wild)."

In person, KS mentioned that he's a boxing fan and that had something to do with his decision. A lot more punches get thrown than 2 per 15 seconds.

[The Beast]

I could swear that in Robotech the characters in the printing I saw were given 4 attacks per melee to start from their HtH skill, except assasin which got 3.

Meaning it said "Level 1. 4 Attacks to start"

I'm pretty sure that's how it was anyways.

Been a long time since I've had a Robotech book in my hands though.

The only thing in the 1st Robotech book I see about this is p. 35, where it says that with HtH and mecha combat skill they have 4 APR. I'm not about to go through the other eras I have from Robotech, but I think they're the same.

[Lukterran]

I say everyone gets two actions per round regaurdless of Hand-to-Hand training, and NPC or Player Character status. I am not trained in melee combat, but I know I can do more than one single action in a 15 second period of time. And not every person in this world or the palladium world is trained in combat. And there has already been two mamy references in the books of NPC's have the 2 attacks in addition to there hand to hand training.

[Goliath Strongarm]

What it all boils down to is personal preference. The book doesnt say anything about 2 extra attacks just because you exist. That rule was in other PB settings. Suddenly, to make it all 'megaversal' they started using it for NPCs that show up in the books. BUT, they still never said anything about it. They just did it.
So, go the way you want, but make sure to apply it across the board.

--
GS

Gods, I know I cant be the only person tired of this topic.

[The Beast]

What it all boils down to is personal preference.

I could have sworn this is what I said in my original post.

[The Beast]

That's because with HtH training parries don't use any attacks/actions.

That is correct but does that mean they don't take any physical time to perform? I'm talking about how much time you have per melee (15 seconds) vs what you could expect to actually do in that time period. People, when talking about attacks and justifying a PC having 4-5 of them, say that they themselvs in RL can easily throw that many punches/kicks, etc. but I don't know how many of them actually think about the defense time that would be taken if they were really involved in some type of melee/combat situation. I'm not talking about this being "free" or costing and action, I mean the amount of time it would take to actually do it.

Think about my previous post, a player with 5 actions could conceivably parry 5 times (I know the rules say that it doesn't take an action so lots of people just allow their characters/players an unlimited amount of parries for all attacks that the player knows about, I only allow up to the number of attacks, unless the player burns attacks to parry as well). So your character is doing 10 things in this melee, regardless of how many attacks or actions you have. That boils down to an action every 1.5 seconds. That's pretty darn incredible.

Mantis

To be fair, you are defending at the same time as someone is attacking.

1. People will give the extra attacks to the PC but not NPCs since it says most player characters. This gives the players an unfair advantage IMO.

I really don't see an unfair advantage here. If any GM so desires he could make it rain elephants onto the PCs. Even if the PCs have two extra turns to dodge eventually they'll run out and get squashed by Jumbo.

[The Beast]

Oh, and I'm not worried about Dumbo, I'm worried about what he ate.

I said Jumbo, Dumbo was fictional.

I do see what you're saying, but I think KS had a Bruce Lee movie in mind when he came up with the subject at hand. From what I've read about Lee, he had to slow down for the camera in order to be filmed. Obviously a guy wearing plate armor swinging a heavy sword around won't move as fast as that, but I don't have a problem with this part of the combat system.

[The Beast]

Oh yeah, that reminds me, I think I'll get my PC's armor magically yellow so it looks like a track suit (ala Game of Death )

You're sick. Really, really sick.

[Astrocreep]

What happens when you are fighting with two weapons? How is that handled? The 2nd Ed. rules seemed a little vague here.

[lather]

You can strike and parry, parry and parry, or strike and strike in one attack.

I noticed that you can get paired weapons as a weapon proficiency or through hand to hand combat (martial arts, I think).

It looks like our next PF game is going to be 2e (grr, Rifts players! ) so I have been reading up a bit here and there.

[Astrocreep]

So with paired weapons all you really gain is the "strike/strike" ability (though you lose the ability to parry incoming attacks) since you get to parry attacks that are seen and appropriate anyway. Having "parry/parry" and "strike/parry" is already a given when you are weapon proficient..

Right?

[lather]

So with paired weapons all you really gain is the "strike/strike" ability (though you lose the ability to parry incoming attacks) since you get to parry attacks that are seen and appropriate anyway. Having "parry/parry" and "strike/parry" is already a given when you are weapon proficient..

Right?

Sorry forgot to reread this last night. I'll have an answer tomorrow unless someone provides before that..

[lather]

So with paired weapons all you really gain is the "strike/strike" ability (though you lose the ability to parry incoming attacks) since you get to parry attacks that are seen and appropriate anyway. Having "parry/parry" and "strike/parry" is already a given when you are weapon proficient..

Right?

Well, strike the same target simultaneously (if the opponent does not have paired weapons, only one attack can be parried) or two different targets within reach.

The point is that you can use two weapons simultaneously in one of the character's attacks in a melee round.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

BTS (5th printing) page 46 & Rifts (4th printing) page 37:

All player characters automatically start off with two attacks/actions per melee. Additional attacks per melee are gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing.

ok, I can make comment on the Rifts page 37 reference. I'll have to look up some of the others.
this quote is from the psi-combat section, if you look at all the OCCs the PCCs ALL start with 2 HtH attacks because they all have a HtH type. not all regular OCCs or MCCs have a HtH type at PC creation.

so untrained characters have 1 attack and can not parry at level 1, that is what you get for being a pacifist and all that, this is the kind of PC that should be role played to stay well away from combat. like most children do.

And, this is an emulator not a simulator, a melee round is supposed to have lots of stuff glossed over to keep things moving and imaginative. so when you say "I can do heaps of stuff in 15 seconds" just think that on top of what has already been stated about attack and parry, there is also moving and angling and looking for an opening and a bunch of stuff.
whats that system that has one second rounds?

[Sentinel]

whats that system that has one second rounds?

GURPS.

Using Chambarra and Trained by Master, with a Karate Skill of 24, my GURPS Martial Artist had four attacks per round.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

Ha, freaky.

some friends where describing how they were talking during combat and taking alot of rounds to do anything.
it was funny.

[jade von delioch]

I think it is best to ignore the 2 for the living rule that they made for HU and inserted into rifts by accident. Palladium Fantasy doesn't need it. Its suggested that you need it if a character doesn't have a Hand to hand skill. However, the only character who wouldn't have any of those would be children, and the 1 melee attack seems fine in that situation. The reason for my thinking is this, unlike rifts (as far as I know), palladium fantasy has several Optional O.C.C.s Such as Peasant, Vagabond, Noble, Merchant, that most non adventurer npcs would fall into. All of these get Hand to Hand: Basic. So unless the npc is a child who hasn't been apprenticed out yet, every one will already have a H-H skill.

I would also argue that a character without the skill should only get 1 attack per melee because it better reflects their lack of skill.

That being said, I think the 2 attacks for the living rule should be treated as this:

if you don't have a h-h skill then you get 2 attacks flat. If you do get a h-h skill, your base number of attacks is replaced by the starting h-h skill.