Slaverey in the Palladium World

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Re: Slaverey in the Palladium World

Unread post by zyanitevp »

I think that the slavery in Palladium adds to the believability.
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Razorwing
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Re: Slaverey in the Palladium World

Unread post by Razorwing »

I think the best case for those of Good Alignment supporting slavery would be the Dr. Feral character of TMNT and Other Strangeness.

Here is a character in a modern setting who in all apparent respects is a kind and caring individual who truly cares about his fellow man. He is incredibly charitable and will not allow any kind of discrimination, racial or sexual, within the company he runs. He condemns dictatorships and even racism. He even goes out of his way to help his employees, friends and even the poor. In every respect, he is the ideal of the Scrupulous alignment.

The only exception is in regards to mutant animals. As far as he is concerned, they are just that... animals and as such, they deserve no HUMAN rights what so ever. To him, even an intelligent mutant is no different that the insects one squashes or swats without a second thought... because animals can't actually think or feel like humans do... at least in his mind. He has no qualms about vivisecting an animal... mutant or normal... as long as it furthers his understanding of genetics and the mutations that lead to these intriguing beasts that allows them to mimic humanity so well.

For most people, such actions would seem deplorable and inhumane... but there's the rub. As far as Dr. Feral is concerned, these creatures aren't human and thus don't deserve the same kindness with which he gives freely to his fellow man.

The same is true in the Palladium world. The vast majority of slaves in the kingdoms that endorse it are beings that are seen as sub-human... orcs, ogres, goblins, giants and the such. Many believe that these beings are no better than beasts... beasts that would gut you as soon as look at you if given the chance. The opponents to slavery in many of these nations don't want to free these beings... they would rather see such monsters dead than given food, shelter and work that could go to the poor, the homeless and the unemployed. It is very likely that it was the Good Aligned members of society that have the "ethical" choice to enslave them rather than slaughter every last one of them. Some may even believe that they are attempting to civilize these barbaric races into productive members of a real society... though it is likely that most don't believe they will succeed. It is the attempt that makes them feel better about forcing these creatures into slavery.

Give people a reason... even a dubious one... and they can justify nearly any act, no matter how atrocious it may seem to us as outside observers.
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Nightmask
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Re: Slaverey in the Palladium World

Unread post by Nightmask »

Razorwing wrote:I think the best case for those of Good Alignment supporting slavery would be the Dr. Feral character of TMNT and Other Strangeness.

Here is a character in a modern setting who in all apparent respects is a kind and caring individual who truly cares about his fellow man. He is incredibly charitable and will not allow any kind of discrimination, racial or sexual, within the company he runs. He condemns dictatorships and even racism. He even goes out of his way to help his employees, friends and even the poor. In every respect, he is the ideal of the Scrupulous alignment.

The only exception is in regards to mutant animals. As far as he is concerned, they are just that... animals and as such, they deserve no HUMAN rights what so ever. To him, even an intelligent mutant is no different that the insects one squashes or swats without a second thought... because animals can't actually think or feel like humans do... at least in his mind. He has no qualms about vivisecting an animal... mutant or normal... as long as it furthers his understanding of genetics and the mutations that lead to these intriguing beasts that allows them to mimic humanity so well.

For most people, such actions would seem deplorable and inhumane... but there's the rub. As far as Dr. Feral is concerned, these creatures aren't human and thus don't deserve the same kindness with which he gives freely to his fellow man.


Well it really doesn't matter what Dr. Feral thinks, he can think he's good all he wants but he isn't (and the game is wrong in giving him a good alignment), he casually tortures and murders sentient beings because 'well they aren't human so that's okay' when it clearly isn't. He's delusional and justifies his Aberrant behavior by painting his victims as not being worthy of being treated like any other sentient being based on nothing more than their DNA not being human (which makes him the human version of those aliens from Heroes Unlimited that treat humans like Feral treats non-humans, except the game doesn't falsely list them as good if memory serves).

Whether or not you can be good and own slaves on the other hand depends on how the laws of the land handle slavery and how an individual handles it. The slave owner who treats his slaves as people (either from pragmatism or honestly seeing them as such) can still be good particularly if by being his slave it protects them from abuses by other less-enlightened sorts (since they aren't 'wild' but instead are 'owned' therefor to mess with them you're messing with someone else's property putting you at risk of punishment for it as you would for torching his house or stealing his tools).
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Re: Slaverey in the Palladium World

Unread post by Razorwing »

Dr. Feral sees mutant animals as just that... mere animals... and thus don't deserve any human compassion. Put a human in the same situation that he puts mutants in and he will fight tooth and nail to save them... hence his Scrupulous alignment.

He will keep his word to a person... he just doesn't see mutants as people. He will lie if necessary... and since mutants aren't people, he sees nothing wrong with lying to them. He won't attack or kill an unarmed person... mutants are rarely unarmed (natural weapons) and as has been stated before... they aren't people in his mind. He doesn't torture for pleasure... not even mutant animals... but he does it to get information from them... information they are rarely willing to give up under normal means... and as before, mutants aren't really people anyways... so they don't feel pain like people do. He doesn't kill for pleasure... as I've stated before, to him they aren't people... and one can only murder a person. One doesn't cry over the mosquito they swat or the ant they step on... so why should he care if a mutant dies if it furthers his research? He will always help others... so long as they are human. He works within the law when possible... and even his treatment of mutants is technically legal as mutants don't have rights under current laws (and in many cases are property owned by his company... and thus can be done with as he sees fit). Of course he doesn't make all his activities public... but neither do many other companies in much more questionable activities. He bends and breaks the law when he feels he has to... but in the case of mutants, the laws don't really acknowledge their existence... so he hasn't actually broken anything. He does have a certain level of distrust for authority... but more from the fact that he feels they just wouldn't understand his actions in regards to mutants, which is why he doesn't make that aspect of his life public. In all other respects, he is a model citizen and will aid police when the victim is human (especially if the offender is a mutant). He does work well with groups... the company he built is proof of that... he just doesn't like the red tape and bureaucracy that would be involved if he made his mutant experiments public. He doesn't take "dirty" money... not even to fund his questionable research... he is wealthy enough not to need it. He will never betray a friend... and will never consider a mutant a friend (as they aren't people in his mind).

In every respect, Dr. Feral is a Scrupulous person... though his values are a little skewed when dealing with non-humans. Has he justified and rationalized his actions? You betcha! Does this mean he isn't Scrupulous? Nope. He adheres to all the values a Scrupulous individual would... at least when dealing with human beings. He really is everything he preaches... as long he is dealing with humans. Mutants on the other hand are not human... and thus don't deserve the respect he gives people... at least in his mind.

One can be Principled and Scrupulous and still be as flawed as any person... even bigoted or racist. To Dr. Feral... mutants just don't deserve the same respect and compassion he would gladly give (and fight for) any human. This doesn't make him evil... at least not as far as the alignment system goes. Flawed... yes. Bigoted... definitely. Amoral... certainly. Evil... only to our perspective as outside observers.

The same is true in many of the civilizations of the Palladium World... the vast majority of slaves are of species seen as sub-human monsters. Many would rather see them dead, but it is the kind and compassionate members that have justified enslaving them as a means of making them feel better... only monsters would kill women and children... even of monstrous races like Orcs and Ogres. By turning these races into slaves, these people feel they are behaving in a more civilized way than these monsters do (many believe they would kill even women and children with little or no provocation). Some may even believe that they are doing these races a favor, by showing them compassion and bringing them into a "true" civilization.

It is this rationalization and demonization of these so-called "monster" races that have allowed otherwise good people to tolerate a practice many would find abhorrent. Better to try to teach a monster to act civilized than to stoop to their level and slaughter every last one of them (something many would argue is better for society). That less scrupulous individuals have profited from this acceptance and rationalization only furthers the tragedy that is being done... in the name of civilized society.

Sometimes the only choices one has are bad ones (slaughter or slavery)... but you still have to choose.
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Re: Slaverey in the Palladium World

Unread post by Nightmask »

Razorwing wrote:Dr. Feral sees mutant animals as just that... mere animals... and thus don't deserve any human compassion. Put a human in the same situation that he puts mutants in and he will fight tooth and nail to save them... hence his Scrupulous alignment.


That doesn't make him Scrupulous, it makes him Aberrant, otherwise you have to accept that some racist is still good even with his abuse and killing of those of the 'wrong' race because 'well they're just animals they aren't really people' in his mind. The same arguments used by those racists that we reject ('they aren't really people, they're just animals, etc') are the same as he's using against beings just as intelligent and deserving of compassion as any human. The alignment table doesn't have any exceptions in it because you victim isn't the same race or species as you so you can claim you're good while cheerfully vivisecting some mutant animal as it screams and begs for you to stop (and we know Feral rendered at least one of his victims mute because he didn't want to keep hearing it beg and scream in agony, might have made him think it was *gasp* wrong to torture another sentient being).

So no, just because he's a charitable man who treats other humans decent doesn't make him a good person, he's evil with standards is all.

Razorwing wrote:He will keep his word to a person... he just doesn't see mutants as people. He will lie if necessary... and since mutants aren't people, he sees nothing wrong with lying to them. He won't attack or kill an unarmed person... mutants are rarely unarmed (natural weapons) and as has been stated before... they aren't people in his mind. He doesn't torture for pleasure... not even mutant animals... but he does it to get information from them... information they are rarely willing to give up under normal means... and as before, mutants aren't really people anyways... so they don't feel pain like people do. He doesn't kill for pleasure... as I've stated before, to him they aren't people... and one can only murder a person. One doesn't cry over the mosquito they swat or the ant they step on... so why should he care if a mutant dies if it furthers his research? He will always help others... so long as they are human. He works within the law when possible... and even his treatment of mutants is technically legal as mutants don't have rights under current laws (and in many cases are property owned by his company... and thus can be done with as he sees fit). Of course he doesn't make all his activities public... but neither do many other companies in much more questionable activities. He bends and breaks the law when he feels he has to... but in the case of mutants, the laws don't really acknowledge their existence... so he hasn't actually broken anything. He does have a certain level of distrust for authority... but more from the fact that he feels they just wouldn't understand his actions in regards to mutants, which is why he doesn't make that aspect of his life public. In all other respects, he is a model citizen and will aid police when the victim is human (especially if the offender is a mutant). He does work well with groups... the company he built is proof of that... he just doesn't like the red tape and bureaucracy that would be involved if he made his mutant experiments public. He doesn't take "dirty" money... not even to fund his questionable research... he is wealthy enough not to need it. He will never betray a friend... and will never consider a mutant a friend (as they aren't people in his mind).

In every respect, Dr. Feral is a Scrupulous person... though his values are a little skewed when dealing with non-humans. Has he justified and rationalized his actions? You betcha! Does this mean he isn't Scrupulous? Nope. He adheres to all the values a Scrupulous individual would... at least when dealing with human beings. He really is everything he preaches... as long he is dealing with humans. Mutants on the other hand are not human... and thus don't deserve the respect he gives people... at least in his mind.


No, in no respect is he Scrupulous, the fact you keep having to add in 'he just doesn't see mutant animals as people' is proof of that as there is no such exception in the alignment table and he's not 'a little skewed' on his values, he's monstrously wrong on them.

Razorwing wrote:One can be Principled and Scrupulous and still be as flawed as any person... even bigoted or racist. To Dr. Feral... mutants just don't deserve the same respect and compassion he would gladly give (and fight for) any human. This doesn't make him evil... at least not as far as the alignment system goes. Flawed... yes. Bigoted... definitely. Amoral... certainly. Evil... only to our perspective as outside observers.


What makes him evil is his actions, and yes his 'humans are the only ones deserving of respect and compassion and treatment as sentient feeling beings' makes him evil: not good, not flawed, but evil. He's evil in the context of his universe and he's evil looking in at him from outside. The fact he tells himself he's good is irrelevant since again he doesn't get to decide what's good, those that do that are Aberrant alignment as Aberrant are those who set their own code that conflicts with what's acceptable, which is why he should have been written with an aberrant alignment from the start instead of the writer actually trying to excuse his evil and insist he's not evil when in fact he is.

Razorwing wrote:The same is true in many of the civilizations of the Palladium World... the vast majority of slaves are of species seen as sub-human monsters. Many would rather see them dead, but it is the kind and compassionate members that have justified enslaving them as a means of making them feel better... only monsters would kill women and children... even of monstrous races like Orcs and Ogres. By turning these races into slaves, these people feel they are behaving in a more civilized way than these monsters do (many believe they would kill even women and children with little or no provocation). Some may even believe that they are doing these races a favor, by showing them compassion and bringing them into a "true" civilization.

It is this rationalization and demonization of these so-called "monster" races that have allowed otherwise good people to tolerate a practice many would find abhorrent. Better to try to teach a monster to act civilized than to stoop to their level and slaughter every last one of them (something many would argue is better for society). That less scrupulous individuals have profited from this acceptance and rationalization only furthers the tragedy that is being done... in the name of civilized society.

Sometimes the only choices one has are bad ones (slaughter or slavery)... but you still have to choose.


A flawed argument there, there are more than two choices possible, one does not have to choose a lesser evil they could instead choose an actual good (give them the chance to learn good values by example, treating them as equals rather than monsters to look down upon) rather than going with an evil. Willingly choosing the evil when you could choose a good at a minimum makes you not a particularly good person, and at worst really just evil trying to rationalize it lest your conscience get onto you over it.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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