Fighting a water elemental Q
Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones
- Braden Campbell
- Palladium Books® Freelance Writer
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: The Free City of Worldgate
Fighting a water elemental Q
A) Elementals can be damaged by magic weapons (D&G, 55)
B ) Water elementals are impervious to stabbing and kinetic attacks (D&G, 66)
So.... do magic swords/knives/arrows/punches affect a water elemental under rule A, or do they pass through harmlessly under rule B?
B ) Water elementals are impervious to stabbing and kinetic attacks (D&G, 66)
So.... do magic swords/knives/arrows/punches affect a water elemental under rule A, or do they pass through harmlessly under rule B?
Braden, GMPhD
_______________________________________
_______________________________________
Braden wrote:Thundercloud Galaxy has a flock of ducks in it that can slag a Glitterboy in one melee.
If that doesn't prompt you to buy it, I don't know what else I can say.
Re: Fighting a water elemental Q
If the weapons damage or penetrative capabilities are changed magically I allow it.
A longsword turned blue magically not so much.
Runeswords that discharge magic energy on hits definitely.
A longsword turned blue magically not so much.
Runeswords that discharge magic energy on hits definitely.
- Library Ogre
- Palladium Books® Freelance Writer
- Posts: 9822
- Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 1:01 am
- Comment: My comments do not necessarily represent the views of Palladium Books.
- Location: Texas
- Contact:
Re: Fighting a water elemental Q
B over-rides A, IMO. While they CAN be damaged by magical attacks, they CANNOT be damaged by stabbing and kinetic attacks. Both A (magical) and B (neither stabbing nor kinetic) must be true for the Water Elemental to be damaged.
-overproduced by Martin Hannett
When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Happiness is a long block list.
If you don't want to be vilified, don't act like a villain.
The Megaverse runs on vibes.
All Palladium Articles
Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Happiness is a long block list.
If you don't want to be vilified, don't act like a villain.
The Megaverse runs on vibes.
All Palladium Articles
Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
Re: Fighting a water elemental Q
Mark Hall wrote:B over-rides A, IMO. While they CAN be damaged by magical attacks, they CANNOT be damaged by stabbing and kinetic attacks. Both A (magical) and B (neither stabbing nor kinetic) must be true for the Water Elemental to be damaged.
Is the extra damage from a rune weapon, or the +6 to monsters power kinetic damage or a magic discharge, I wouldn't allow bonuses to damage or the normal weapon, but I do allow the magical damage to be applied (like the +6 to monsters for example).
- Library Ogre
- Palladium Books® Freelance Writer
- Posts: 9822
- Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 1:01 am
- Comment: My comments do not necessarily represent the views of Palladium Books.
- Location: Texas
- Contact:
Re: Fighting a water elemental Q
kiralon wrote:Mark Hall wrote:B over-rides A, IMO. While they CAN be damaged by magical attacks, they CANNOT be damaged by stabbing and kinetic attacks. Both A (magical) and B (neither stabbing nor kinetic) must be true for the Water Elemental to be damaged.
Is the extra damage from a rune weapon, or the +6 to monsters power kinetic damage or a magic discharge, I wouldn't allow bonuses to damage or the normal weapon, but I do allow the magical damage to be applied (like the +6 to monsters for example).
IMO, unless it is specifically called out as being something other than kinetic damage, it's kinetic damage.
-overproduced by Martin Hannett
When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Happiness is a long block list.
If you don't want to be vilified, don't act like a villain.
The Megaverse runs on vibes.
All Palladium Articles
Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Happiness is a long block list.
If you don't want to be vilified, don't act like a villain.
The Megaverse runs on vibes.
All Palladium Articles
Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
- Greyaxe
- Champion
- Posts: 2471
- Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:03 pm
- Comment: Role playing is not my hobby, it is my lifestyle.
- Location: Oshawa, Ontario. Canada
Re: Fighting a water elemental Q
I personally disagree with option B. If a weapon is instilled with magical energy, like a demon death blow from a Palladin, it would damage the elemental despite being immune to physical attacks. All magic weapons are considered a magical attack. Just like the spell that makes weapons magical would do full damage.
Sureshot wrote:Listen you young whippersnappers in my day we had to walk for 15 no 30 miles to the nearest game barefoot both ways. We had real books not PDFS and we carried them on carts we pulled ourselves that we built by hand. We had Thaco and we were happy. If we needed dice we carved ours out of wood. Petrified wood just because we could.
- Greyaxe
- Champion
- Posts: 2471
- Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:03 pm
- Comment: Role playing is not my hobby, it is my lifestyle.
- Location: Oshawa, Ontario. Canada
Re: Fighting a water elemental Q
I personally disagree with option B. If a weapon is instilled with magical energy, like a demon death blow from a Palladin, it would damage the elemental despite being immune to physical attacks. All magic weapons are considered a magical attack. Just like the spell that makes weapons magical would do full damage.
Sureshot wrote:Listen you young whippersnappers in my day we had to walk for 15 no 30 miles to the nearest game barefoot both ways. We had real books not PDFS and we carried them on carts we pulled ourselves that we built by hand. We had Thaco and we were happy. If we needed dice we carved ours out of wood. Petrified wood just because we could.
Re: Fighting a water elemental Q
Mark Hall wrote:IMO, unless it is specifically called out as being something other than kinetic damage, it's kinetic damage.
To me the 4d6 minimum damage of means it not all kinetic even though it could mean the weapon is extra sharp and is guided through the air harder and stronger than normal, but the rules on rune weapons does tend to make me think its more of an energy discharge.
Otherwise how does a 5 year old with a rune dagger do 36 points of damage to something with 1 hit.
- Library Ogre
- Palladium Books® Freelance Writer
- Posts: 9822
- Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 1:01 am
- Comment: My comments do not necessarily represent the views of Palladium Books.
- Location: Texas
- Contact:
Re: Fighting a water elemental Q
kiralon wrote:Mark Hall wrote:IMO, unless it is specifically called out as being something other than kinetic damage, it's kinetic damage.
To me the 4d6 minimum damage of means it not all kinetic even though it could mean the weapon is extra sharp and is guided through the air harder and stronger than normal, but the rules on rune weapons does tend to make me think its more of an energy discharge.
Otherwise how does a 5 year old with a rune dagger do 36 points of damage to something with 1 hit.
Then does "Impervious to Energy" make one immune to most of the damage of a rune weapon?
-overproduced by Martin Hannett
When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Happiness is a long block list.
If you don't want to be vilified, don't act like a villain.
The Megaverse runs on vibes.
All Palladium Articles
Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Happiness is a long block list.
If you don't want to be vilified, don't act like a villain.
The Megaverse runs on vibes.
All Palladium Articles
Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
Re: Fighting a water elemental Q
Mark Hall wrote:kiralon wrote:Mark Hall wrote:IMO, unless it is specifically called out as being something other than kinetic damage, it's kinetic damage.
To me the 4d6 minimum damage of means it not all kinetic even though it could mean the weapon is extra sharp and is guided through the air harder and stronger than normal, but the rules on rune weapons does tend to make me think its more of an energy discharge.
Otherwise how does a 5 year old with a rune dagger do 36 points of damage to something with 1 hit.
Then does "Impervious to Energy" make one immune to most of the damage of a rune weapon?
Yes if impervious to energy makes you immune to the damage done by death wards, as I tend to think it is its own specialised damage type for rune weapons.
Which makes me think, kinetic is an energy type too
you know, kinetic energy. It says it in the name.
- eliakon
- Palladin
- Posts: 9093
- Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
- Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
- Contact:
Re: Fighting a water elemental Q
To me its pretty easy
The general rule A (can be damaged by magic weapons) is over ridden by the specific rule B (can not be harmed by swords and the like).
Rule A is the general rule for elementals with B being a specific rule that amends the general rule.
Just like how "humans can be damaged by poison" (general) is over ridden by the super power "immune to poison" (specific)
The general rule A (can be damaged by magic weapons) is over ridden by the specific rule B (can not be harmed by swords and the like).
Rule A is the general rule for elementals with B being a specific rule that amends the general rule.
Just like how "humans can be damaged by poison" (general) is over ridden by the super power "immune to poison" (specific)
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.
Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Re: Fighting a water elemental Q
eliakon wrote:To me its pretty easy
The general rule A (can be damaged by magic weapons) is over ridden by the specific rule B (can not be harmed by swords and the like).
Rule A is the general rule for elementals with B being a specific rule that amends the general rule.
Just like how "humans can be damaged by poison" (general) is over ridden by the super power "immune to poison" (specific)
So you don't think a runesword would damage a water elemental ?
- Library Ogre
- Palladium Books® Freelance Writer
- Posts: 9822
- Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 1:01 am
- Comment: My comments do not necessarily represent the views of Palladium Books.
- Location: Texas
- Contact:
Re: Fighting a water elemental Q
kiralon wrote:eliakon wrote:To me its pretty easy
The general rule A (can be damaged by magic weapons) is over ridden by the specific rule B (can not be harmed by swords and the like).
Rule A is the general rule for elementals with B being a specific rule that amends the general rule.
Just like how "humans can be damaged by poison" (general) is over ridden by the super power "immune to poison" (specific)
So you don't think a runesword would damage a water elemental ?
The idea that a runesword CAN damage a water elemental is based on your unsubstantiated idea that there's some sort of energy discharge associated with a rune weapon's damage level.
And Impervious to Energy specifically calls out several things one is not immune to, which includes pretty much everything kinetic.
-overproduced by Martin Hannett
When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Happiness is a long block list.
If you don't want to be vilified, don't act like a villain.
The Megaverse runs on vibes.
All Palladium Articles
Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Happiness is a long block list.
If you don't want to be vilified, don't act like a villain.
The Megaverse runs on vibes.
All Palladium Articles
Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
Re: Fighting a water elemental Q
Well, its not really unsubstantiated. Rune weapons do far too much damage for it to be normal kinetic damage. Some of them do close to catapult damage. That's not normal physics there, and as rune weapons have to have a particular power to control themselves which then could assist a swing by adding speed and strength there is definitely an unknown force that increases the damage. A rune pin would do minimum of 4d6 damage by the rules, and is that classed as normal kinetic damage? You're assuming just as much as I am for it to be just kinetic damage, because I don't know of any pins that could do that much damage, and a rune pin could theoretically do 1d6x10. Stick a guy and he explodes.
So what is the extra damage from with runeswords if its not a magic discharge of some sort. Logically as normal weapons cant do that much damage its not normal damage.
Right after where it says Immune to kinetic attacks it says they still have standard elemental vulnerabilities which is
Elementals are vulnerable to magic, psionic and energy attacks/weapons
So the vulnerability to magic weapons is written into their description, rather then just being a general overview. I do believe that the idea of them would be to take damage from magic weapons as well from the read up.
air elementals are damaged by magic weapons too
Impervious to poison, chemicals, drugs, disease, heat, cold, punches, normal weapons (magic weapons do full damage)
Dark conversions also says that they are hurt by magic weapons.
So what is the extra damage from with runeswords if its not a magic discharge of some sort. Logically as normal weapons cant do that much damage its not normal damage.
Right after where it says Immune to kinetic attacks it says they still have standard elemental vulnerabilities which is
Elementals are vulnerable to magic, psionic and energy attacks/weapons
So the vulnerability to magic weapons is written into their description, rather then just being a general overview. I do believe that the idea of them would be to take damage from magic weapons as well from the read up.
air elementals are damaged by magic weapons too
Impervious to poison, chemicals, drugs, disease, heat, cold, punches, normal weapons (magic weapons do full damage)
Dark conversions also says that they are hurt by magic weapons.
- eliakon
- Palladin
- Posts: 9093
- Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
- Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
- Contact:
Re: Fighting a water elemental Q
kiralon wrote:eliakon wrote:To me its pretty easy
The general rule A (can be damaged by magic weapons) is over ridden by the specific rule B (can not be harmed by swords and the like).
Rule A is the general rule for elementals with B being a specific rule that amends the general rule.
Just like how "humans can be damaged by poison" (general) is over ridden by the super power "immune to poison" (specific)
So you don't think a runesword would damage a water elemental ?
No a runesword can not damage a water elemental.
Since water elementals can not be damaged by swords...they can not be damaged by swords. Even that one, yes that one too, and that one.
It does not say "Can not be damaged by non-magical swords"
Thus the "is impervious to X" means that it is, indeed impervious to X.
The only runeswords that can harm water elementals would be ones that have, as a special feature "can harm water elementals"
Then their even more specific rule over rides the previous one.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.
Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
- eliakon
- Palladin
- Posts: 9093
- Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
- Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
- Contact:
Re: Fighting a water elemental Q
kiralon wrote:Well, its not really unsubstantiated. Rune weapons do far too much damage for it to be normal kinetic damage. Some of them do close to catapult damage. That's not normal physics there, and as rune weapons have to have a particular power to control themselves which then could assist a swing by adding speed and strength there is definitely an unknown force that increases the damage. A rune pin would do minimum of 4d6 damage by the rules, and is that classed as normal kinetic damage? You're assuming just as much as I am for it to be just kinetic damage, because I don't know of any pins that could do that much damage, and a rune pin could theoretically do 1d6x10. Stick a guy and he explodes.
So what is the extra damage from with runeswords if its not a magic discharge of some sort. Logically as normal weapons cant do that much damage its not normal damage.
Its magic. That's it. There is no 'discharge' it simply is.
kiralon wrote:Right after where it says Immune to kinetic attacks it says they still have standard elemental vulnerabilities which is
Elementals are vulnerable to magic, psionic and energy attacks/weapons
So the vulnerability to magic weapons is written into their description, rather then just being a general overview. I do believe that the idea of them would be to take damage from magic weapons as well from the read up.
air elementals are damaged by magic weapons too
Impervious to poison, chemicals, drugs, disease, heat, cold, punches, normal weapons (magic weapons do full damage)
Dark conversions also says that they are hurt by magic weapons.
So we have
1) a rule that says that they are vulnerable to
Magic
Psionics
Energy attacks/weapons
It does not say "magic weapons" just "energy weapons"
2) Air elementals explicitly say that magic weapons can harm them. They also say they are immune to normal weapons not kinetic ones. Thus, they have zero to do with water elementals.
3) Dark Conversions changes the rules, it does not clairify them. Thus the text that matters is the most current text.
We know that this is so becuse the write ups for things in Dark Conversions do not line up with the write ups in the source material. Ergo the write ups in DC are new rules that change the old ones where Rifts is concerned.
HOWEVER Dark Conversions is a book for Rifts not Palladium Fantasy.
Ergo the rules in Rifts apply to Rifts, the rules in PF apply to PF.
One can invoke rule zero to import the rules from the other games if that is desired, but they are not rules for the other games, only their own game.
based on 1,2, and 3
We are still at "Water Elementals in PF are not damaged by magic weapons because they are immune to those weapons and there is no text in PF that says otherwise. They have different rules in other games, but for PF they follow the PF rules."
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.
Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Re: Fighting a water elemental Q
eliakon wrote:
1) a rule that says that they are vulnerable to
Magic
Psionics
Energy attacks/weapons
It does not say "magic weapons" just "energy weapons"
I see what the issue is here how we read the next line. Im reading it "magic, psionics and energy attacks/weapons"
you are reading it "Magic, psionics" and energy attacks/weapons
Its another one of those wonderful interpreted how you read it. To me it reads as one line.
Under their specific vulnerabilities it says 2. Elementals are vulnerable to magic, psionic and energy attacks/weapons (magic fire ball, flaming swords, lightning bolt javelins, high-tech energy weapons, etc.).
Which means to me
magic attacks/weapons hurt them
Psionic attacks/weapons hurt them
energy attacks/weapons hurt them.
otherwise the following line would parse that they are only resistant to normal weapon weapons, fire, heat and cold but only cold does half damage.
Resistant to normal weapons, fire, heat, and cold (does half damage)
Do you allow psi swords to hurt them (Damage from psionic energy attacks such as psi-sword)
if yes
but its a sword, its solid so you can parry with it so its kinetic and a psi sword is a stabbing weapon so it should be immune to it.
if no
its also an energy weapon so it should hurt it.
Does immune to energy make you immune to a psi sword.
Impervious to Kinetic & Stabbing Attacks (Special): The physical nature of the flowing water makes it so that stabbing attacks, punches, kicks, thrown spears, arrows, and even bullets from a gun slosh right through the Elemental without damage.However having a great weight slam into it or falling only does %10 the normal damage. That's not immune to kinetic damage.
However it mostly comes down to how you read the sentence I guess, and from what I have read immunity to rune weapon damage isn't particularly likely as they tend to be the only thing that can hurt everything. Otherwise a water elemental with immune to energy is a tough nut to crack indeed.
Re: Fighting a water elemental Q
eliakon wrote:Its magic. That's it. There is no 'discharge' it simply is.
and it specifically says magic hurts it. Doesn't need to be a discharge, and it doesn't specify magic spells.
Re: Fighting a water elemental Q
The fact that all elementals are impervious to normal,weapons anyways would seem to argue in favor of magical weapons not doing damage unless they are magical fire weapons (and maybe water and ice weapons as well depending on how you interpret it).
Last edited by dreicunan on Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Declared the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not by Axelmania on 5.11.19.Axelmania wrote:You of course, being the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not.
Re: Fighting a water elemental Q
I think its just bad wording and editing and the writer wanted differences in the descriptions rather then just copy pasting. If you check the earth elementals they are impervious to normal weapons because they are elementals, and resistant to normal weapons and take half damage from normal weapons because they are earth elementals. That's one of the reasons why I think water elementals aren't immune to magic weapons. Air elementals are even more ethereal, and would give less resistance then water, yet magic weapons hurt them on the way through, but they don't to water elements? That's certainly an odd way of looking/doing it.