What is the average time a player spends doing 1 action

[kiralon]

Now that people do get an extra 2 attacks a round I was curious about the average time a player spends on an action.
Roughly how long on average do you or your players spend on an action.
That is 1 of your 4+ actions in a round

[Braden Campbell]

5 seconds and under.

[dreicunan]

5 seconds and under.

Including dice rolling and resolution?

[Veknironth]

Well, are you asking about the real person sitting at the table or the player character?

-Vek
"I hope you mean the person."

[kiralon]

The actual time in real life the person spends yes.

last game was for me was about 2 minutes per person, from when their turn started to the next persons turn, with the wizard taking slightly longer.

[Veknironth]

Well, that is entirely unacceptable. It's one of the things that makes me laugh and frustrates the hell out of me when I play at the Open House. I come with a few of the guys from out old campaign and when it's out turn, we're ready. I don't understand why someone can't think of what they'll do while someone else is stating their actions. It's ludicrous.

That said, we sort of fixed it in our campaign. Here's how. Each PC has x number of actions per melee. For simplicity's sake, let's say 5 attack actions. Divide the seconds in a melee round by those attacks. For our example, one action every 3 seconds. When it is that player's turn, that player has 3 seconds to decide what to do. You look at the player and ask "what are you going to do?" and you can either count out loud or in your head. When you get to three, that action is lost. The PC froze up. The same works for a defensive action. Someone swings at or shoots at the PC and the PC get 3 seconds to react. If the player stares at you, roll damage.

I know that sounds harsh, but it cleans up combat quickly. Player will learn, and they'll learn fast. I'll relate a sequence from a Robotech game that actually happened:

GM: ok, the guy is aiming at you.
PC: Ok...um...can I..(GM counts to three)
GM: He hits, you take (roll dice) 22 points of damage to main body.
PC: Wait, what? I didn't get to do anything. What about my dodge?
GM: He's shooting again.
PC: Again? Hang on, isn't it my turn? What about -
GM: He hits again, (roll dice) 27 points of damage to the main body.
PC: Hey, that's not fair, you're not giving me a chance to do anything.
GM: He's firing again.
PC: Dodge.

That PC knew the rules, but he froze. He argued, and the GM didn't argue with him. He just kept applying the penalties until the guy stopped complaining. Again, I know it sounds harsh, but it works. It cuts out all the questions and table blabber.

-Vek
"PC's always want to know an action will work before doing it."

[Veknironth]

Well, I thought about it and I have another suggestion. It's something else we do. When a PC is paired up one on one, or there are separate fights going on in various places, handle them separately. Take player 1 and his or her opponents and go through the entire round. Then move to the next player, and the next, etc.. Players always want to dispatch their opponent and then fly across the battlefield immediately and kill whoever is left. It's hard to be in a fight, win, and then be able to orient yourself, determine what's going on and who's left, and then rush over and be involved. Plus, melee combat is messy. It looks like Rock'em Sock'em Robots when depicted on a map, but a fight takes place over a wide area. People move around trying to get a good angle, or to evade. Swings with weapons are going to be several feet away from the center of the body. Even if you want to run in and attack someone from behind, it's going to take some time to find a good path.

The speed benefit is clear. It's attack, respond, etc.. and it's just the GM and the PC going at it and there is no down time. It also gives the PC a chance to deal with his or her opponent and not get two parried attacks in and then have the combat superhero swoop in and take care of it for you. No one wants to just watch the guy with the lucky die or best bonuses do everything.

-Vek
"I also forces players who aren't so good at fighting to have to survive a bit longer and plan for it."

[Braden Campbell]

5 seconds and under.

Including dice rolling and resolution?

Hmmm... just used a stopwatch to make a declaration of an attack to roll a D20: 6 seconds and change.

[dreicunan]

5 seconds and under.

Including dice rolling and resolution?

Hmmm... just used a stopwatch to make a declaration of an attack to roll a D20: 6 seconds and change.

What about when there is defensive action to resolve and/or damage to roll?

[kiralon]

Well, that is entirely unacceptable. It's one of the things that makes me laugh and frustrates the hell out of me when I play at the Open House. I come with a few of the guys from out old campaign and when it's out turn, we're ready. I don't understand why someone can't think of what they'll do while someone else is stating their actions. It's ludicrous.

That said, we sort of fixed it in our campaign. Here's how. Each PC has x number of actions per melee. For simplicity's sake, let's say 5 attack actions. Divide the seconds in a melee round by those attacks. For our example, one action every 3 seconds. When it is that player's turn, that player has 3 seconds to decide what to do. You look at the player and ask "what are you going to do?" and you can either count out loud or in your head. When you get to three, that action is lost. The PC froze up. The same works for a defensive action. Someone swings at or shoots at the PC and the PC get 3 seconds to react. If the player stares at you, roll damage.

I know that sounds harsh, but it cleans up combat quickly. Player will learn, and they'll learn fast. I'll relate a sequence from a Robotech game that actually happened:

GM: ok, the guy is aiming at you.
PC: Ok...um...can I..(GM counts to three)
GM: He hits, you take (roll dice) 22 points of damage to main body.
PC: Wait, what? I didn't get to do anything. What about my dodge?
GM: He's shooting again.
PC: Again? Hang on, isn't it my turn? What about -
GM: He hits again, (roll dice) 27 points of damage to the main body.
PC: Hey, that's not fair, you're not giving me a chance to do anything.
GM: He's firing again.
PC: Dodge.

That PC knew the rules, but he froze. He argued, and the GM didn't argue with him. He just kept applying the penalties until the guy stopped complaining. Again, I know it sounds harsh, but it works. It cuts out all the questions and table blabber.

-Vek
"PC's always want to know an action will work before doing it."

I will do the 30 second limit again and see how it goes, this will be hilarious, and it will help mitigate the issue of to many attacks, but with any of the main direct damage spells for example (you know, fireball, call lightning) the wizard doesn't use them because lvl 6+ take 2 actions. He mostly sticks to spells lvl 1-5, and then the fighters go on and have another 4 attacks each. (or 2 without fleet feet)

[kiralon]

5 seconds and under.

Including dice rolling and resolution?

Hmmm... just used a stopwatch to make a declaration of an attack to roll a D20: 6 seconds and change.

What about when there is defensive action to resolve and/or damage to roll?

It is to the resolution of your action so enemy parry attempts and (in my case armour penetration roll) and damage.

[Veknironth]

Well, you seem to have misread my post, Kiralon. It's not every 30 seconds, it's 3 seconds. Tell them beforehand this is what you're doing and give them fair warning. Then, spring it on them. I'll tell you, it will initially be hilarious. They will hem, haw, stammer, and complain. And then, they'll adjust and combat will go much faster. I promise.

-Vek
"Those players of yours wouldn't last one combat in our campaign!"

[kiralon]

Well, you seem to have misread my post, Kiralon. It's not every 30 seconds, it's 3 seconds. Tell them beforehand this is what you're doing and give them fair warning. Then, spring it on them. I'll tell you, it will initially be hilarious. They will hem, haw, stammer, and complain. And then, they'll adjust and combat will go much faster. I promise.

Wasn't a misread, every 3 seconds will be something to work up to and methinks ill use it first in a boss battle. 30 seconds seems like a good start.

-Vek
"Those players of yours wouldn't last one combat in our campaign!"

about half a round would be my guess

[zyanitevp]

I have done 30 second timers in the past- for players action only- and it has worked well.

[Hotrod]

For basic combat, I like Vek's approach. However, I worry that it leaves less time for some more creative combat. It may take a little longer than three seconds to say "I'm going to pick up the biggest gravestone I can handle and hurl it at the beast" or "I'm going to help cut Sir Prancelot out of that net." Additionally, if the player requires some clarification on rules, the scenario, and what's allowed, it seems unreasonable to cut them off at three seconds.

Vek's example comes across as a bit dickish, since the player isn't used to his methods and is asking reasonable questions (why did Vek skip the player's turn? The first question seems reasonable to me.) Personally, I'd give the player three seconds to start stating their action or ask a question, but ignoring everything the player says that isn't a simple one-word response seems unreasonable to me.

Vek's quote that players always want to know an action will work before they try it comes across as a pretty jaded remark, in my opinion. For example, let's say you're shooting at an enemy who's behind a fence, and you make a called shot to the legs. The GM says "you can't see them, so you miss." That's just silly; the character would be able to see that, and the player is within his or her rights to ask if the enemy's legs are visible and target-able. Most unconventional actions require a shared understanding of the situation, and it's unreasonable to assume that the player and GM will always visualize the scenario the same way.

Incidentally, that last point is also a great reason to use miniatures and tactical maps when possible.

[kiralon]

The limited time to do an action always adds to the tension of a situation, but as hotrod said as they aren't there so expecting them to be able to react realtime is a bit harsh, but sometimes players need harshness. Sometimes I feel like i'm at a table full of children (some are 40+) and sometimes I feel like im at a table full of ready and able rpg'ers so things do have to be flexible. I usually find that if a gm is doing something in particular that's seems to be bad, a player or players have pushed him there with their antics, and as mentioned the guy knew the rules, as its pretty much the players job to push the limits of the rules, and the gm to keep em (mostly) within them.

[dreicunan]

I would never go with a time limit that short for actions because I've played with people in the past who just could not process that quickly (in one case because of brain trauma suffered earlier in his life), but they were still great people to play with. I can see a 30 second limit to make a decision, but I would never go shorter than that myself.

[Whiskeyjack]

This is something we've been trying to coach the kids through when we play. Whenever it comes to their turn there is a lot of humming and hawing over what they are going to do, so we're telling them to start thinking about their next move as soon as their turn is over. Granted things that happen in between might change that, but at least you're already looking at your character to see what you want to do and can easily adapt.

[Veknironth]

Well, I don't mean you only get 3 seconds total. You have to start making a decision. If three seconds of silence happens then you lost your turn. Simple questions about the physical environment, uncertainty about something that the player doesn't know but the character would know, and longer explanations of actions are fine. We just try to get rid of people waiting until their turn to start thinking about what they're going to do.

So, if someone immediately asks the questions about being able to see a part of the body, we're right on pace. The GM makes a quick decision and then you go from there. However, I'd expect the player to have a plan for either eventuality. I wouldn't want them to ask "Can I see the legs?", have the GM say "no", and then be unprepared for that response. And actually, asking the question when your turn arrives helps cut down on two or more people talking at once. That's another thing that slows down combat.

And you can relax this for people who are new to the system, or who may have other disabilities. I also approve of slowing things down for a particularly pivotal moment in the fight. Build up the drama.

But what we most want to do is encourage what Whiskeyjack is talking about. Think about your action BEFORE it's your turn. No one wants to wait at the table (or online) and watch someone think. This is especially true if other players already know what they're going to do. Like Kiralon says, there are people who know their characters, they know the rules, and they're present in the game. It shouldn't take that long to decide which spell to use, or which opponent to strike.

Now, as a bridge, you might consider asking a person what he or she wants to do and if that person hems and/or haws, skip that person and go to the next. Then you can come back and see if they've made a decision. It's not as punitive combat-wise, but it makes a point. Then if that person keeps stalling, penalize more drastically.

Miniatures and maps are very helpful. Hell, you can even use dice to represent characters and NPC's. I recommend d4 and d8 as they can easily show a character's orientation in respect to the battlefield. It's not as cool, and doesn't have the effect of pulling out the big ass ogre miniature (yes big miniature, I see it) but it really keeps everyone with the same basic concept of where everyone is in relation to everyone else.

-Vek
"It's totally dickish, but it works like a charm."

[kiralon]

and if you want it to look a little better then just dice on a grid and don't want to get mini's I can recommend these
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/133 ... res-1-OCCs
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/133 ... _purchased

Theres a whole range to look through.