Alternative weapon strikes?

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PalladiumBrony
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Alternative weapon strikes?

Unread post by PalladiumBrony »

OK, this is mostly just a sanity check, figured it would be useful to bounce an idea off the community, that way we could spot any flaws in my idea, or maybe suggest a better way of doing things: The thing I'm having difficulty getting a satisfactory system for is when a character uses any one of several weapons in a "non standard" fashion - coincidentally, often but not necessarily when they want the strike to be less potentially lethal (a Murder Stroke is specifically lethal!). Examples:

  • one-handed sword/dagger pommel strikes (while holding the sword in a standard grip, as opposed to stabbing/slicing/chopping with the blade)
  • pistol whipping with a handgun
  • striking with the butt-end of a spear or polearm rather than the sharp, stabby end
  • Striking with the butt of a rifle or shotgun in close quarters (where firing is either undesirable or impossible)
  • the Mordhau or Murder Stroke, a tactic used against heavily armored knights in the German school of swordsmanship, where a longsword was flipped and held with both hands by the blade, while the pommel and crossguard were used as an impromptu hammer to batter the opponent into submission. Done where this was much easier than trying to find a tiny gap through which to stab them.

It might be as simple as saying "when you use your weapon like that, it counts as this weapon for damage purposes", but I'm not sure if all those examples can easily translate into the equivalent of another weapon: You could easily say that the haft of a polearm does the same damage as a quarterstaff, but for example what weapons from the Compendium of Weapons, Armour and Castles (my go-to source for ancient weapon technology) would be "close enough" to the damage inflicted with a pistol whip, pommel stroke or Mordhau? I guess you could argue a Mordhau would do the same damage as a warhammer (2D6. If using the Resistance Factor rules from CoWA&C - which I discuss in my other post here - counts as impact damage), but I'm not sure if it would do slightly less, since that's not what a sword's grip is designed to do. What kind of penalties to strike and parry would you guys suggest implementing for a tactic like this, if any? Considering that for some you're striking with a point on the weapon not originally designed for such, and in some cases you're even holding the weapon completely counter to its original design, and thus totally messing up any benefits you get from its balance (admittedly, only the finest weapons GET any bonuses from particularly fine balance). Should significantly changing the way you hold a weapon cost you an action?
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Re: Alternative weapon strikes?

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I don't have a hard and fast rule for this, nor even any clearly developed rules. I'd probably lean towards the "this is the equivalent weapon", or "it does half damage but you get to use your WP bonuses", depending on the situation.
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kiralon
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Re: Alternative weapon strikes?

Unread post by kiralon »

As they are used in special circumstances they would be special strikes.

spear butt = staff
pistol whip = sap or small club
rifle butt = club
The murder blow move just really doesn't fit palladium, that was done when you are having trouble getting through armour. Palladium Fantasy's problem tends to be the opposite, with armour not being protective enough. As it is Full plate only stops %80 of the blows coming from an untrained peasant with a sock over his hand as a weapon.
Try making some of them as part of a combo, If the pc strikes, then parries, then kicks, then dodges then let the next move be the pc's special move. They then usually get pretty excited when they pull it off.
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Re: Alternative weapon strikes?

Unread post by Soldier of Od »

PalladiumBrony wrote:OK, this is mostly just a sanity check, figured it would be useful to bounce an idea off the community, that way we could spot any flaws in my idea, or maybe suggest a better way of doing things: The thing I'm having difficulty getting a satisfactory system for is when a character uses any one of several weapons in a "non standard" fashion - coincidentally, often but not necessarily when they want the strike to be less potentially lethal (a Murder Stroke is specifically lethal!). Examples:

  • one-handed sword/dagger pommel strikes (while holding the sword in a standard grip, as opposed to stabbing/slicing/chopping with the blade)
  • pistol whipping with a handgun
  • striking with the butt-end of a spear or polearm rather than the sharp, stabby end
  • Striking with the butt of a rifle or shotgun in close quarters (where firing is either undesirable or impossible)
  • the Mordhau or Murder Stroke, a tactic used against heavily armored knights in the German school of swordsmanship, where a longsword was flipped and held with both hands by the blade, while the pommel and crossguard were used as an impromptu hammer to batter the opponent into submission. Done where this was much easier than trying to find a tiny gap through which to stab them.

It might be as simple as saying "when you use your weapon like that, it counts as this weapon for damage purposes", but I'm not sure if all those examples can easily translate into the equivalent of another weapon: You could easily say that the haft of a polearm does the same damage as a quarterstaff, but for example what weapons from the Compendium of Weapons, Armour and Castles (my go-to source for ancient weapon technology) would be "close enough" to the damage inflicted with a pistol whip, pommel stroke or Mordhau? I guess you could argue a Mordhau would do the same damage as a warhammer (2D6. If using the Resistance Factor rules from CoWA&C - which I discuss in my other post here - counts as impact damage), but I'm not sure if it would do slightly less, since that's not what a sword's grip is designed to do. What kind of penalties to strike and parry would you guys suggest implementing for a tactic like this, if any? Considering that for some you're striking with a point on the weapon not originally designed for such, and in some cases you're even holding the weapon completely counter to its original design, and thus totally messing up any benefits you get from its balance (admittedly, only the finest weapons GET any bonuses from particularly fine balance). Should significantly changing the way you hold a weapon cost you an action?


Hi,
Your comment regarding the 'murder stroke' reminded me of an alternative version of Hand to Hand: Palladin I posted here a while back. It might interest you. See here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=135032&p=2614439#p2614439

I redid the Hand to Hand later, removing the murder stroke type ability to make it a bit more 'normal' compared to the existing hand to hand styles/ see here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=152963&hilit=Hand+to+Hand%3A+Palladin
Hope you find these useful!
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Re: Alternative weapon strikes?

Unread post by Borast »

PalladiumBrony wrote:OK, this is mostly just a sanity check

Sanity can be overrated, but okay...
>snip<
PalladiumBrony wrote:when a character uses any one of several weapons in a "non standard" fashion >snip< Examples:

  • one-handed sword/dagger pommel strikes (while holding the sword in a standard grip, as opposed to stabbing/slicing/chopping with the blade) - Oddly enough, many combat styles actually include "pommel strikes" in their training. I'd say use punch damage and add either 1/2D6, or 1D6
  • pistol whipping with a handgun - This strike can be lethal. When striking the head, it can cause massive skull fractures. Personally, I'd say WP: Blunt, and treat it as a horseman's mace.
  • striking with the butt-end of a spear or polearm rather than the sharp, stabby end - Spear, use WP: Staff, and treat as a staff or quarterstaff. Alternatively, some Martial Arts train for this, so use WP: Spear, with full bonuses. For the polearm...have lots of room beside and behind you, and even then, some not a chance! (Think about short hafting a pole twice your height, and using the "wrong" end!) I'd say WP: Blunt, 1D6 damage (due to the awkward nature of the attack), and HALVE the bonuses.
  • Striking with the butt of a rifle or shotgun in close quarters (where firing is either undesirable or impossible) - This strike can ALSO be lethal. When striking the head, it can cause massive skull fractures. Personally, I'd say WP: Blunt, and treat it as a footman's mace.
  • the Mordhau or Murder Stroke, a tactic used against heavily armored knights in the German school of swordsmanship, where a longsword was flipped and held with both hands by the blade, while the pommel and crossguard were used as an impromptu hammer to batter the opponent into submission. Done where this was much easier than trying to find a tiny gap through which to stab them. - If the character is SPECIFICALLY trained in this manoeuver, WP: Blunt with half bonuses. (Due to the desire to avoid cutting one's own hands off.) If untrained, no bonuses except due to attributes. In either case, I'd say treat it like a horseman's mace.


PalladiumBrony wrote:>snip< I guess you could argue a Mordhau would do the same damage as a warhammer >snip< What kind of penalties to strike and parry would you guys suggest implementing for a tactic like this, if any? >snip< and in some cases you're even holding the weapon completely counter to its original design, and thus totally messing up any benefits you get from its balance. >snip< Should significantly changing the way you hold a weapon cost you an action?

Given that the warhammer is a polearm, albeit a short-hafted one...I'd say a horseman's mace at best for damage.
Penalties depends...some martial styles actually train for the very strikes you are implying. If the training is there, full bonuses. If they are not, depending on how "unnatural" it is, anything from the closest applicable WP to unskilled.
As for the loss of an action, if the training is there due to the martial style, then no. The change in grip would be part of the action. If the training is not there, then you would use the appropriate other WP (i.e. WP: Blunt), but you would loose an action doing so (or have it "cost" two actions, penalizing the character later in the round).

And additional considerations - if attempting "less than lethal" combat, your players would also have to sacrifice any damage bonuses they are entitled to.
For the pistol whip and butt strike, I'd also consider a nat 20 an automatic K.O., if the CALLED STRIKE (since the entire intent with the former is a headshot, and the latter, an opportunity shot to the head or solar plexus) actually hits.

Or, simply use the house rule I've used since 1st Ed AD&D...half damage. (With loss of damage bonuses, depending on what is intended.)
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