Attribute requirements

[Whiskeyjack]

For example, Doug the human wants to be a Palladin, but he only has a 10 PS and PP, 2 shy of the required 12.

[kiralon]

Well with humans I allows them to move their initially rolled stats around as a natural ability for humans - to represent their adaptability, if you want to be a particular class the human is most likely to succeed, the other races stats are what and where they rolled, but I allow 2 down 1 up if someone is desperate.

[dreicunan]

Just about everyone I can recall has allowed the same thing with humans, although for non-humans when we played Palladium games I believe that we also allowed moving of same rolled die code stats as well (so if you have one that is 2d6+3 and one that is 2d6, you could swap the die results between them, but not the +3). It's been years, though, and I never played a non-3d6 base stat character, so my memory is hazy.

[ShadowLogan]

It would depend on does the OCC and its OCC skills provide a bonus to the relevant attribute, and is it enough to raise the attribute to the required amount?

If the answer is YES, then I'd allow it (might also allow it for related-other/secondary).

If the answer is NO, then I would allow it to be raised to the minimum (there is precedent in Rifts Juicer/Crazy OCCs) provided the attribute can get that high (ex if the MA requires is MA of 15, and the best you can do is MA 12 you'd be out of luck).

[Vrykolas2k]

Well with humans I allows them to move their initially rolled stats around as a natural ability for humans - to represent their adaptability, if you want to be a particular class the human is most likely to succeed, the other races stats are what and where they rolled, but I allow 2 down 1 up if someone is desperate.

Why do only humans get these benefits?

[Library Ogre]

Well with humans I allows them to move their initially rolled stats around as a natural ability for humans - to represent their adaptability, if you want to be a particular class the human is most likely to succeed, the other races stats are what and where they rolled, but I allow 2 down 1 up if someone is desperate.

Why do only humans get these benefits?

Likely because humans get pretty much nothing else.

However, I like the suggestion that "If the skills you learn can bring your stats up, then you can do it." I'd also add, however, that I let people spend skill slots to improve stats, simply because that's what a lot of the physical skills are... if I can study bodybuilding and increase my PS, it's reasonable I can spend a bunch of time doing brain puzzles and increase my IQ, or go to charm school to increase my MA, or learn to increase my PB by a combination of cosmetology and kineseology.

[Whiskeyjack]

That’s another point I’ve always been unclear on. Is the attribute requirement taken into account before OCC bonuses or after? I’ve always played it that your roll has to meet the requirement. If it doesn’t you lack the ability for that class.

[The Beast]

That’s another point I’ve always been unclear on. Is the attribute requirement taken into account before OCC bonuses or after? I’ve always played it that your roll has to meet the requirement. If it doesn’t you lack the ability for that class.

Everyone I've played with went with prior to selecting the OCC. Then again, most people I played with rolled an extra d6, rerolled ones and twos, and took the highest dice so I don't recall anyone failing to get the OCC attribute requirements.

[Whiskeyjack]

I generally roll one extra die and toss the lowest. Seems to work pretty good. Everyone still manages to get a 7.

[kiralon]

Likely because humans get pretty much nothing else.

That's it, and it also works well with the racial histories explanation that humans are very adaptable.

[dreicunan]

That’s another point I’ve always been unclear on. Is the attribute requirement taken into account before OCC bonuses or after? I’ve always played it that your roll has to meet the requirement. If it doesn’t you lack the ability for that class.

Everyone I've played with went with prior to selecting the OCC. Then again, most people I played with rolled an extra d6, rerolled ones and twos, and took the highest dice so I don't recall anyone failing to get the OCC attribute requirements.

One of my friends had people roll 6d6. Take the top 3 to make your stat. If that gives you a 16, 17, 18, grab one of the other ones. If you had a 6 to grab, then take one of the remaining 2.

[VIsgar]

I picked Other. I'd rather have a player choose physical and/or mental skills from that O.C.C. to fill the needed class requirements.

I think the option for just bump up the stats to the minimum could work.

[Sir Dellis]

I always make my PCs roll stats first and THEN pick an OCC

[kiralon]

Ditto, roll first. Gotta have the attribute high enough to pick the occ in the first place, as you don't pick skills until you pick an OCC.

[Hotrod]

If the attribute requirement is a physical one, you can actually roleplay this. Since secondary skills are regarded as "outside the profession" skills, you could allow the character to select secondary physical skills that bump up physical stats in order to meet the entry requirements. This gives the player and the GM a bit more insight into the character's upbringing. Such a character would likely be especially motivated and dedicated to the profession.

[VIsgar]

Ditto, roll first. Gotta have the attribute high enough to pick the occ in the first place, as you don't pick skills until you pick an OCC.

I guess I just assumed that you are training to become that class and not yet bound by its required stats as you're still learning/training.

A real life example would be the initial strength test in the USMC. To be able to join bootcamp you had to do 3 pull-ups and run 1.5 miles in about 18ish minutes. By the time you're done with bootcamp you'll be doing many more pull-ups and running a 3 mile in under 28 minutes.

If recruits didn't have time to build their mental and physical skills many of them (myself included) might not have been able to take that OCC/MOS.

Another reason I think it could be easier to just bump up stats to the minimum required is some unscrupulous players could either just cheat saying I rolled such and such or re-roll new characters until they get almost exactly what they want.

Edit: When you're learning a new job you learn it a step at a time. Say you make a wizard. They'll have to learn how to read before they can dive into a book or other writings their teacher wants them to study. You can't just say "Ok now that my wizard training is complete I want to pick how to read Elven." In my opinion you had to learn to read Elven before you could complete parts of your training.

If you need a tiny bit more stats to make the requirements but you get them through your training I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to take the OCC.

[ShadowLogan]

That’s another point I’ve always been unclear on. Is the attribute requirement taken into account before OCC bonuses or after? I’ve always played it that your roll has to meet the requirement. If it doesn’t you lack the ability for that class.

Well if we look Megaversally at Rifts Juicer and Crazy OCCs, the attribute requirements come after OCC bonuses since they have minimum PS and PP requirements that if not met after the bonus die rolls automatically get raised to the minimum. So I would have to say that OCC bonuses (flat and skill) can count toward requirements it would seem. Though Juicer/Crazy (types) might also just be a special case.

[kiralon]

That would be a special ability for them then as looking in the rifts books the character creation order is the same as fantasy, with step 1 being rolling stats and step 4 being picking occ. It's even more confusing for palladium because step 4 is also when you pick your race, but it does say step 1, roll your stats. Allowing skills to be picked to add to the stats is just DM's being nice to players, most requirements don't have bonuses so why bother having requirements then anyway.

Rifts is where you look to when you want overpowering . . . . . . . . power.

[eliakon]

My rule is that any identical rolls can be moved around.
Thus humans, because they roll 3d6 for everything can put their stats where they want them. if your race rolls two stats with 2d6+5 then you can pick which goes where... that sort of thing.
If after this they are still unable to meet the class I require that they put the best possible stats in the required areas...
...and then handwave them up to the minimum needed.
So far this has happened very infrequently and has never seemed to be a problem.
If the class in question is a powerful rare class with really harsh requirements... I would require the player to use their 'gimmie' on it.

My gimmie policy is that everyone gets one free gimmie for their character. That is the nifty favor that you ask for that may or may not be approved. If you want an obscure skill set justified by a fairly convoluted backstory... well that's a gimmie. If you want your sorceress to have gotten her training because she was related to nobility, that's a gimmie. Need some better gear, or permission to take a skill from a different game, or...what ever it is that you are asking me to give you...well that's a gimmie.

They can be saved and not used in creation too. As long as you have it you have a 'favor' banked away that you can call in. I will award gimmie's out as rewards for extraordinary roleplaying or for crowning moments of awesome... that sort of thing.

So far it has worked out very well.

[kiralon]

I do allow a reroll during character creation on whatever you like, but you have to take the second roll even if it is lower, but I tell my players that its about character development, and the more development space I have the better.

But on the whole if characters want something they start with they have to come up with a good backstory to explain it (2 pages minimum) and a decent name. If they do this ill likely allow it.

[dreicunan]

I do allow a reroll during character creation on whatever you like, but you have to take the second roll even if it is lower, but I tell my players that its about character development, and the more development space I have the better.

But on the whole if characters want something they start with they have to come up with a good backstory to explain it (2 pages minimum) and a decent name. If they do this ill likely allow it.

2 pages minimum? That is hardly enough information. We need to know the font requirements, line spacing, and margins as well.

[kiralon]

I do allow a reroll during character creation on whatever you like, but you have to take the second roll even if it is lower, but I tell my players that its about character development, and the more development space I have the better.

But on the whole if characters want something they start with they have to come up with a good backstory to explain it (2 pages minimum) and a decent name. If they do this ill likely allow it.

2 pages minimum? That is hardly enough information. We need to know the font requirements, line spacing, and margins as well.

I developed the backstory prequisite because I used to play with someone who thought his starting (lvl1) assassins should be better than lvl 12 ones for things he wanted it to do.

but for someone who asked that question
no margins
handwritten
.05cm line space
font size 1
doesn't matter about font as long as each letter isn't bigger then .2cm

Then ill let you ride your death star breath weapon endowed, jet powered tyrannosaurus rex with eyebeams that shoots out sharks that have laser eyebeams, with kill everything in 1 km radius backstab teleport combo.
Lets just say he was happier playing rifts.