Dragon fire

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Whiskeyjack
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Dragon fire

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

Am I the only one that finds dragons to be physically underwhelming in Palladium? Especially when it pertains to their breath attacks? When I think dragon fire I imagine it like Game of Thrones with a dragon wiping out an entire fleet or army in a matter a minutes. Instead, after multiple flybys with fire, you'd have a couple of sails on fire.
I realize they have magic and teleportation and other abilities, but I've always thought of dragons as physically powerful, especially when it comes to their breath attacks.
Anyone house rule how their breath attacks work?
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Re: Dragon fire

Unread post by kiralon »

Whiskeyjack wrote:Am I the only one that finds dragons to be physically underwhelming in Palladium? Especially when it pertains to their breath attacks? When I think dragon fire I imagine it like Game of Thrones with a dragon wiping out an entire fleet or army in a matter a minutes. Instead, after multiple flybys with fire, you'd have a couple of sails on fire.
I realize they have magic and teleportation and other abilities, but I've always thought of dragons as physically powerful, especially when it comes to their breath attacks.
Anyone house rule how their breath attacks work?

Damage per level :)
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Whiskeyjack
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Re: Dragon fire

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

That's kind of a cool idea. Level 10 dragon doing 5D6x10 would be pretty scary.
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Re: Dragon fire

Unread post by eliakon »

Yeah.
The problem of course is that the stats of Dragons never really got 'buffed' from 1st ed.
And in 1st ed they were horrifying.
Since in 1st ed there was no SDC. So everyone just had armor and HP. And with the ability of a good roll to bypass armor...
5d6 was likely to kill or cripple most mundanes and low level soldiers and was enough to scare even mid level PCs.
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Re: Dragon fire

Unread post by kiralon »

mid level pc's usually have something that give them resistance to fire (cough armour of ithan cough) and that usually made the party tough enough, with fleet feet, to scare a lot of dragons, and their breath weapon was dodgeable, had a range of about 40ft, usually not wider than 6, and the toughest dragons only had 60 - 360 hp, and if you had 3 people in the party that can paralyse, carpet of adhesion or cloud of slumber the dragon was generally screwed. I have had a 2nd level wizard bring a great wooly dragon down with cos because the dragon didn't have further range than the casters. You then cast carpet of adhesion on their wings and throw things onto the wings and then cast increase weight on those items. Great woolys were the best target as the didn't fly, weren't into magic and are pretty dumb, and worth crap loads when butchered.

The amount of money you got from killing a dragon far outstripped the cost of hiring enough people to kill it easily (15 mages and 30 cannon fodder)
If you want to know what I mean pick an average dragon and make 15 saving throws vs sleeping cloud/paralyse. 1 will fail.
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Re: Dragon fire

Unread post by kiralon »

and split the levels into 5 levels of difficulty depending on size/age.
Basically everything is multiplied by the level.

So now its Danger there be dragons.
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Re: Dragon fire

Unread post by The Dark Elf »

One of the issues with any RPG is that monsters are there to be fought. Otherwise you'd only need a description and some characteristics.

The sense of realism must be dispersed slightly to have an achievable foe to defeat.

I still think the dragons are too hard in this respect but my point is that I was actually pleased to see such a low damage from the breath attacks.
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Re: Dragon fire

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Whiskeyjack wrote:Am I the only one that finds dragons to be physically underwhelming in Palladium? Especially when it pertains to their breath attacks? When I think dragon fire I imagine it like Game of Thrones with a dragon wiping out an entire fleet or army in a matter a minutes. Instead, after multiple flybys with fire, you'd have a couple of sails on fire.
I realize they have magic and teleportation and other abilities, but I've always thought of dragons as physically powerful, especially when it comes to their breath attacks.
Anyone house rule how their breath attacks work?

If you think they are underwhelming in PF, its more so in Rifts IMHO.

One thing to keep in mind is that the breath attack can attack groups per the text (D&G) if they are close enough together. That in someways can make them more powerful allowing them to strike multiple targets for each attack w/o penalty, though it requires their targets to be cooperative.

House Rule suggestions:
-Rifts Ultimate Edition's Hand to Hand: Dragon. HTH:Dragon contains two leveled developments that improve their Breath Attack's capabilities (range or coverage). Either directly import and use the HTH:D as is (waiting for high levels for the attacks) or take the abilities in question and make them available earlier if you think level 10/13 is to long to wait for the abilities
-give the breath attacks some lingering effects appropriate to the attack (ex. ice breath might make the ground slippery, fire breath could start fires, poison gas may linger, etc)
-Rift's "Dragon Fire" Level 9 Invocation Spell (BoMpg128, IINM also in RUE and WB16o) would seem to suggest that the power level of the breath attack is supposed to be greater at adult stage than hatchling (and presumably Ancient), but Dragon Breath Attack's I looked at don't seem to improve between Hatchling and Adult so it would be a house rule since the types of fire dragons I can think of don't do the listed damage even as an adult. Granted the difference in some cases is very minor at 1:1
-they might use their spell/psionic powers to enhance their breath attack (when appropriate, ex. Fuel Flame on a Fire Breath attack to increase range/coverage and maybe even damage, Bursters in Rifts can use their class ability Super Fuel Flame to increase damage so the notion is not without megaversal precedent)
-have the breath attack the damage everything in the zone of effect (length x width x presumably height, just like explosives damage everything in their radius in other lines) so you could hit Bob the Knight and if the Dragon picks the proper positioning could also hit Jane the Mage even though Jane and Bob are more than the width apart because the Dragon chose the proper angle to get both of them
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Re: Dragon fire

Unread post by Reagren Wright »

After watching a movie in which Smog destroyed an entire city. I decided for adult
dragons to add +5 per level to their breath weapon damage to Ice, Nightstalker, Fire,
Thunder Lizard, and somebody I'm forgetting. The Great Horn Dragon I add 10 per level.
Hydra and Cockatrice don't change at all. This makes their breath weapon be the
ultimiate weapon that the dragon would rely on instead of always casting spells. So
when that 10th level Fire Dragon breaths fire everyone runs, including those who take
half damage.
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Re: Dragon fire

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

The Dark Elf wrote:One of the issues with any RPG is that monsters are there to be fought. Otherwise you'd only need a description and some characteristics.

The sense of realism must be dispersed slightly to have an achievable foe to defeat.

I still think the dragons are too hard in this respect but my point is that I was actually pleased to see such a low damage from the breath attacks.


Not necessarily. They make great protagonists working from the shadows, commanding events and pawns. Not every being in an RPG should be able to be killed by the average adventuring party. Killing a dragon should be momentous, and something that takes years to plan with the proper group (or large army). Instead we have "Hey look, a dragon. Want to kill it?" "Sure, we have an hour to kill before lunch."

There have been a lot of good ideas in this thread so far. I'm glad I'm not the only one that found them a bit underwhelming physically.

Earthshakers are another on that surprised me when you look at their SDC/Hit points. My kids group could probably take one out in a a couple of melee rounds at level 3.
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Re: Dragon fire

Unread post by kiralon »

Whiskeyjack wrote: Not necessarily. They make great protagonists working from the shadows, commanding events and pawns. Not every being in an RPG should be able to be killed by the average adventuring party. Killing a dragon should be momentous, and something that takes years to plan with the proper group (or large army). Instead we have "Hey look, a dragon. Want to kill it?" "Sure, we have an hour to kill before lunch."

There have been a lot of good ideas in this thread so far. I'm glad I'm not the only one that found them a bit underwhelming physically.

Earthshakers are another on that surprised me when you look at their SDC/Hit points. My kids group could probably take one out in a a couple of melee rounds at level 3.

+1
After the third dragon kill from cloud of slumber I gave the dragons a free reroll save based on their age level and the spell level
Age 1 dragon can get a free reroll from failed save vs lvl 1 spells, age 5 dragon gets a free reroll on failed spells lvl 1-5, the second roll sticks however. After I did that the number of wooly dragon deaths at the hands of second level characters dropped dramatically, and now if the characters want to kill a dragon its pretty much its own quest.
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Re: Dragon fire

Unread post by eliakon »

There are a few issues that are often overlooked.

The first is that I always hear the "well a good PC group can slaughter X with their superior tactics and tricks"
to which I ask "So why does no one use those on them?"
The usual response is some muttering about "not fair" or "I'm not a killer GM".
To that I say "tough". No, I really mean it. It really sucks to be those soon to be dead PCs.
If the players establish that X, Y, and Z are stock in trade tactics then they should expect to be hit with them themselves. If the players don't want to face intelligent opponents that use the same levels of skill, tactics and techniques they use against the NPCs, then they shouldn't use them themselves. Seriously, the players are the ones setting the game difficulty level. Now if there is a gentleman's agreement that "well yes, we COULD do X or Y or Z... but we don't and you don't" that's great. But if the PCs feel that they can min-max and munch out the system... well then they are stating that they wish to be in a game where that is the default so be it... and thus I say let the chips (and bodies) fall as they may.

If your PCs are wiping out the dragons with groups of hirelings, and 15 cloud of slumber spells... then perhaps it is time that your (highly intelligent) dragons get on the ball and have their own minions. A dozen orcs (or worse pixies) with talismans of cloud of slumber will wipe out that party just as easily. Good for the goose, good for the gander.

The other issue that is overlooked is what I call the 10x 10 room problem. Monsters are not just bags of loot sitting in a cave waiting to be killed.
They should be doing stuff. There is no logical reason for a Dragon to BOTH have a hoard worth pillaging, and to be off on its own with no interactions with the rest of the world.
Monsters do not live in 10' x 10' rooms waiting for adventurers to show up and kill them for their 2 rolls on the type D treasure table. If you run your world that way... then guess what? It is NOT the fault of the monster for being a push over.

The average adult dragon is going to have a full range of magic, a huge treasure horde (and if it has magic items and stuff then you can better bet that it will be USING them...so that crystal ball is not sitting in a chest waiting to be discovered, but instead is being consulted regularly etc.), it is highly intelligent so that it will be aware of the advantages of having minions, spies, traps, tricks, allies, and the like. Played well Dragons are horrifying monsters... the famed "Tuckers Kobalds" from Dragon Magazine fame demonstrate how dangerous monsters can be if they are not treated as moronic loot piñatas.
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Re: Dragon fire

Unread post by kiralon »

eliakon wrote:There are a few issues that are often overlooked.

[snip]

If your PCs are wiping out the dragons with groups of hirelings, and 15 cloud of slumber spells... then perhaps it is time that your (highly intelligent) dragons get on the ball and have their own minions. A dozen orcs (or worse pixies) with talismans of cloud of slumber will wipe out that party just as easily. Good for the goose, good for the gander.

The other issue that is overlooked is what I call the 10x 10 room problem. Monsters are not just bags of loot sitting in a cave waiting to be killed.
They should be doing stuff. There is no logical reason for a Dragon to BOTH have a hoard worth pillaging, and to be off on its own with no interactions with the rest of the world.
Monsters do not live in 10' x 10' rooms waiting for adventurers to show up and kill them for their 2 rolls on the type D treasure table. If you run your world that way... then guess what? It is NOT the fault of the monster for being a push over.

The average adult dragon is going to have a full range of magic, a huge treasure horde (and if it has magic items and stuff then you can better bet that it will be USING them...so that crystal ball is not sitting in a chest waiting to be discovered, but instead is being consulted regularly etc.), it is highly intelligent so that it will be aware of the advantages of having minions, spies, traps, tricks, allies, and the like. Played well Dragons are horrifying monsters... the famed "Tuckers Kobalds" from Dragon Magazine fame demonstrate how dangerous monsters can be if they are not treated as moronic loot piñatas.

I'm guessing none of the parties you played with went after great wooly dragons. They are stupid and cranky, and they are the loot. The value of their bones, blood and skeleton and other organs really makes it worth it, and those particular ones cant fly and don't have magic. Easy enough to fill a ship full of bits and sail home.

But even then the magic system is human centric, because if a dragon casts a spell, and it originates at the tip of his finger claws, often the spell ranges wont make it past his teeth, and if he's standing up straight his breath weapon wont reach the ground.
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Re: Dragon fire

Unread post by eliakon »

kiralon wrote:
eliakon wrote:There are a few issues that are often overlooked.

[snip]

If your PCs are wiping out the dragons with groups of hirelings, and 15 cloud of slumber spells... then perhaps it is time that your (highly intelligent) dragons get on the ball and have their own minions. A dozen orcs (or worse pixies) with talismans of cloud of slumber will wipe out that party just as easily. Good for the goose, good for the gander.

The other issue that is overlooked is what I call the 10x 10 room problem. Monsters are not just bags of loot sitting in a cave waiting to be killed.
They should be doing stuff. There is no logical reason for a Dragon to BOTH have a hoard worth pillaging, and to be off on its own with no interactions with the rest of the world.
Monsters do not live in 10' x 10' rooms waiting for adventurers to show up and kill them for their 2 rolls on the type D treasure table. If you run your world that way... then guess what? It is NOT the fault of the monster for being a push over.

The average adult dragon is going to have a full range of magic, a huge treasure horde (and if it has magic items and stuff then you can better bet that it will be USING them...so that crystal ball is not sitting in a chest waiting to be discovered, but instead is being consulted regularly etc.), it is highly intelligent so that it will be aware of the advantages of having minions, spies, traps, tricks, allies, and the like. Played well Dragons are horrifying monsters... the famed "Tuckers Kobalds" from Dragon Magazine fame demonstrate how dangerous monsters can be if they are not treated as moronic loot piñatas.

I'm guessing none of the parties you played with went after great wooly dragons. They are stupid and cranky, and they are the loot. The value of their bones, blood and skeleton and other organs really makes it worth it, and those particular ones cant fly and don't have magic. Easy enough to fill a ship full of bits and sail home.

But even then the magic system is human centric, because if a dragon casts a spell, and it originates at the tip of his finger claws, often the spell ranges wont make it past his teeth, and if he's standing up straight his breath weapon wont reach the ground.


Wooly Dragons tend to be rare, hard to track down and in inconvenient places...
...almost as if they had almost been hunted to extinction. :lol:


As for ranges I tended to figure "from the dragon"... basically I went back to the hex system theory.
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Re: Dragon fire

Unread post by kiralon »

There is an island with a heap of them in the floenry isles unfortunately.
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Re: Dragon fire

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Possible simple fix? Add a dragon's Supernatural PS damage to their breath weapon damage. As it stands, a dragon might decide that their claws are a better option than their breath... if they add their PS damage to it, it becomes pretty scary.

I'd also say something of an AoE option might be nice.
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Re: Dragon fire

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, I never thought of dragons as being easy to kill, and I never thought of their breath weapons as being less than they should be. That's just how the dragons are in Palladium. They aren't dragons from other works. They're Palladium RPG dragons. Personally, the dragon as a weapon of mass destruction is what I dislike.

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Re: Dragon fire

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ASOIAF?
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