Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #63!

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Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #63!

Unread post by Scorpion Leader »

Besides the fact that in the Real World someone can attack via punch or weapon more than Once or Twice untrained (likely to be swing wild and possibly miss), let alone trained(ie. Boxer, Martial Artist amature or Professional, I myself Have a Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do and can throw more than one attack in 15 seconds depending on if using punches and Kicks and of what type): The Offical Source Material about the Timiro Kingdoom written by Glen Evens and KS himself; now clearly establishes in the write up for the NPC Movers and Shakers of the Relm, that you get Two (2) Initial Attacks (for Living/Existing) plus those gained from Hand To Hand Combat Skill and Those gained from skills like Boxing. So PFRPG Now Is In Line with the Rest of the Palladium Megaverse and is Now Offically All PC/NPC Start Initially with Two Hand To Hand Attack (for Living/Existing) per Melee Regardless of Being Untrained or Trained in a Hand To Hand Combat Style Period End of Story!!
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Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #63!

Unread post by Reagren Wright »

Your welcome. Was thoroughly annoyed with the incompatibility.
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Re: Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #6

Unread post by berserkelf »

What is Rifter #63 and how does that at all relate to Palladium Fantasy rules?
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Re: Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #6

Unread post by Razorwing »

I always used the standard rules for number of attacks... that everyone starts with 2 attacks and gains 2 more with combat training (and 1 more if trained in boxing) for a total of 4 (or 5) attacks at first level (unless using HtH: Assassin). This is the standard in ALL other Palladium Book games.

The idea that Palladium Fantasy was somehow different in that you only get two attacks if trained and none if not never sat well with me... and it made bringing characters too and from this one world difficult to say the least (PF characters would have less attacks than others with equivalent skills). I think it was just another in the all too common oversights that happen when a company tends to copy and paste rules from one book to another without taking the time to properly edit them to make sure they are consistent (though in all fairness, there are a lot of books to check so even if they did, mistakes may still get through).
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Re: Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #6

Unread post by Reagren Wright »

berserkelf wrote:What is Rifter #63 and how does that at all relate to Palladium Fantasy rules?


Official cannon material involving the Timiro Kingdom. The stats for correct number attacks also appear in characters in Bizantium, and will continue from this point forward.
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Re: Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #6

Unread post by kiralon »

Good that some official errata was accepted/done, wish it was on something else though rather than on number of attacks. 4 attacks at level 1 is a bit much, makes fleet feet even scarier now.
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Re: Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #6

Unread post by Library Ogre »

kiralon wrote:Good that some official errata was accepted/done, wish it was on something else though rather than on number of attacks. 4 attacks at level 1 is a bit much, makes fleet feet even scarier now.


I've long preferred a smaller number of attacks per round. It makes any bonus attacks more impactful, and keeps those with low numbers of attacks from going out for pizza once their few are done, so the guy with 37 APM can finish.
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Re: Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #6

Unread post by Braden Campbell »

I agree with Mark. Palladium Fantasy combat, with significantly lower attacks-per-round values, ends up being much more Player-friendly than Rifts or even N&S in which everyone, friend and foe alike, have higher numbers of actions. Everyone's turn comes around that much faster... monsters are on par with heroes (having neither woefully fewer attacks nor overpoweringly more attacks than the PCs)... and fights are generally just more interesting.
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Re: Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #6

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, there are two main effects of the more attacks per melee. The first is characters with Hand to Hand skills are more effective in combat now. Animals and monsters lost out. The other is a mechanics issue. You roll initiative less frequently.

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Re: Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #6

Unread post by kiralon »

Veknironth wrote:Well, there are two main effects of the more attacks per melee. The first is characters with Hand to Hand skills are more effective in combat now. Animals and monsters lost out. The other is a mechanics issue. You roll initiative less frequently.

-Vek
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And as mark wrote, while the fighters are still doing their attacks the casters watch a movie on their tablets while they wait and finish the movie before their next action, because seriously, what characters don't get fleet feet as soon as its available. It needs to be fixed, as it is the number 1 spell that everyone goes for. Even if you aren't munchkin orientated you have to take it just in case you come across someone with it, because if you come across someone with it and you don't have it you lose, and that will be even more pronounced now. I know I'm not going to use it in my games as the number of attacks is ludicrous already, we didn't need to go into plaid. This isn't dragonballz, the fighters don't need to be super duper ultra mega whoopty do saiyens. There is Rifts for that.


The Fleshing out of Timiro though is quite good, gives more info on the royal family. #63 Rifter is good if you like playing in Timiro.
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Re: Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #6

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, Fleet Feet is another monster all together. We had a guy in our campaign who had a medallion with Fleet Feet on it. Overpowered. We essentially banned the spell from the game. Must have been lost in the Purge. Giving one extra attack per melee is a huge benefit. Doubling your attacks is preposterous.

The other disparity with spell casters is the Mind Mage. They can pull off any of their abilities with one attack action. The more powerful spells take a lot longer.

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Re: Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #6

Unread post by kiralon »

Veknironth wrote: Well, Fleet Feet is another monster all together. We had a guy in our campaign who had a medallion with Fleet Feet on it. Overpowered. We essentially banned the spell from the game. Must have been lost in the Purge. Giving one extra attack per melee is a huge benefit. Doubling your attacks is preposterous.

and your speed and your bonuses to strike parry and dodge. I heard that kevin himself doesn't let PP get over 30. I want to ban the spell from the game but the players absolutely love the spell, even when I kill em with it.
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Re: Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #6

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, we sort of decided as a group that it was overpowered. But I figure as the GM, you can decide and put your foot down. What are they going to do?

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Re: Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #6

Unread post by Library Ogre »

The thing is, doubling your number of attacks in 1e wasn't that bad... two or three attacks becoming four or six was neat, but not nearly as game-breaking as doubling the five attacks 1st level professional warriors can be expected to have (2+Hand to hand+Boxing... six if you're talking a troll or some other race), and since Palladium over-values two-weapon fighting, it gets even sillier.

Fleet Feet a 2nd level Troll Assassin with WP Paired, WP Battle Axe, and HTH Assassin, and you're looking at (2 for living, +1 for 1st level Assassin HTH, +1 for 2nd level assassin OCC + 2 second level HTH assassin +1 troll, +1 Boxing) and you've got 16 attacks in a round, meaning you're rolling 32 strike rolls, with at least +3 to hit (+1 from WP, +2 from HTH assassin) and an average damage around 5d6+11 (3d6 battle axe +1d6 troll size +1d6 2nd level WP Battle Axe; average strength of a troll on 4d6+10 is 24, plus 2 more for the boxing we had him take).

By the time that's done resolving, your other players have married, conceived a child, and raised it to take over their characters.
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Re: Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #6

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, we smoothed down the rolling a bit. We decided that a double attack (two swords at the same target) was one roll. We also decided that you can't parry a 2-handed weapon with a 1-handed one. A shield, yes, but not with a long sword. We also decided you can't block a mace and chain with a sword.

Think of this. Fleet Feet also would boost the attacks by a mind mage. How does that track?

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Re: Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #6

Unread post by kiralon »

Hmm, changing it to superhuman speed might work, and yes I'm the GM but we vote on the rules mostly, and mark has hit the nail on the head too.

and I do something similar with parrying but its more size orientated but works out similar.
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Re: Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #6

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, I forgot to add that we have also decided that you can parry a giant-sized weapon with 2 weapons, but that takes away the Parry/Attack option. Further, the giant sized 2-handed weapon cannot be parried at all. And I'm talking about true giants, not just an ogre.

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Re: Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #6

Unread post by kiralon »

Well there's almost the rest of the rule I use except I use multiple size categories.
1-3ft
3-7ft
7-12ft
12-18ft
18ft-24ft and so on
a small class weapon 1 size category up because of 1 extra level of giant size is classed as a large, so you could parry a giant shortsword but not a flamberge
eg The Dagger can parry up to short class weapons singly (1h), or using cross blocks for large (2h) class weapons, however you have to have paired weapons to cross block and cross blocking takes up one attack.

I do have a lot of the combat modifiers codified but it does get changes pretty often.
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Re: Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #6

Unread post by zyanitevp »

kiralon wrote:
Veknironth wrote: Well, Fleet Feet is another monster all together. We had a guy in our campaign who had a medallion with Fleet Feet on it. Overpowered. We essentially banned the spell from the game. Must have been lost in the Purge. Giving one extra attack per melee is a huge benefit. Doubling your attacks is preposterous.

and your speed and your bonuses to strike parry and dodge. I heard that kevin himself doesn't let PP get over 30. I want to ban the spell from the game but the players absolutely love the spell, even when I kill em with it.
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I hate that spell- and had people over level 20 using it, so you can imagine the number of attacks they had....
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Re: Re: PFRPG Attacks per Melee subject Dead as of Rifter #6

Unread post by Library Ogre »

kiralon wrote:Well there's almost the rest of the rule I use except I use multiple size categories.
1-3ft
3-7ft
7-12ft
12-18ft
18ft-24ft and so on
a small class weapon 1 size category up because of 1 extra level of giant size is classed as a large, so you could parry a giant shortsword but not a flamberge
eg The Dagger can parry up to short class weapons singly (1h), or using cross blocks for large (2h) class weapons, however you have to have paired weapons to cross block and cross blocking takes up one attack.

I do have a lot of the combat modifiers codified but it does get changes pretty often.


I considered something like this, but I would've switched the damage based from d6 to d4... so a long sword would do 3d4 damage in human hands, 2d4 damage if sized for the little races, 4d4 if sized for the big, and 5d4 if sized for the giant.
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