Globe of Daylight, redux

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Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, I asked about this a while ago and there seemed to be two visions of how the spell works.

1. It creates a source from which light radiates outward, like a lantern.

2. It creates a sphere in which there is ambient daylight within its confines.

With either, I'm curious how far away, if at all, the globe could be seen.

With the lantern example, the light should be visible from a good distance away, depending on sight lines and how dark it is in general.

With the ambient light, there are two possibilities. One is that the people inside the globe are illuminated to people outside. This is like someone looking through a window into a lighted room, at night. In a dark environment, you could hide behind the globe if you were on the opposite side of it from the observer. Essentially, the viewer from one side couldn't see through to the other side because of the light obscuring it. I think this would even negate night vision. I also wonder from how far away this globe would be visible.

The other is that the magic creates the effect only for people inside of the sphere. So, someone outside of the area of effect wouldn't know it was there. It would be invisible to someone outside of the area, appearing to them to just be the regular dark environment. Once the person stepped into the globe, or the mage moved it onto them they would suddenly be thrust into daylight. This seems much less likely to me. However, if it were the way the spell worked, what would happen if someone were in the area of effect and an observer with night vision looked into the globe? Would the observer see what was inside, and if so, how would it appear?

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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by Library Ogre »

At the moment, I'm of the "Creates a lantern" camp, because of the wording of the spell

"A small globe or sphere of true daylight is magically created. The light is bright enough to illuminate a 12 foot (3.6 m) area per each level of its creator's experience."

Small globe is created. Globe is bright enough to illuminate an area.

How far away can it be seen? In dark conditions, miles. The old rule of thumb is that you can see a cigarette from miles away in blackout conditions, and this is a room full of bright light, not an ember.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, I always thought of it that way myself. I wonder, though, as you increase in level and thus range, does the size of the globe increase or does the intensity of the light increase? Also, you do you think the caster can moderate the amount of light being put out? Is there a magical dimmer switch?

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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by kiralon »

Mark Hall wrote:At the moment, I'm of the "Creates a lantern" camp, because of the wording of the spell

"A small globe or sphere of true daylight is magically created. The light is bright enough to illuminate a 12 foot (3.6 m) area per each level of its creator's experience."

Small globe is created. Globe is bright enough to illuminate an area.

How far away can it be seen? In dark conditions, miles. The old rule of thumb is that you can see a cigarette from miles away in blackout conditions, and this is a room full of bright light, not an ember.

+1

and is blocked by anything that normally blocks light.
And the spells that can increment are usually mentioned in the description so I'd say it just gets brighter, but saying that, bright enough to illuminate a 12ft area isn't particularly bright to begin with but could dazzle at night time, especially if much higher level.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Veknironth wrote:Well, I always thought of it that way myself. I wonder, though, as you increase in level and thus range, does the size of the globe increase or does the intensity of the light increase? Also, you do you think the caster can moderate the amount of light being put out? Is there a magical dimmer switch?

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I'd say it gets brighter but, of course, everything is written with Palladium's usual exactitude. I'd also allow a caster to regulate the brightness down.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by kiralon »

Mark Hall wrote:
Veknironth wrote:Well, I always thought of it that way myself. I wonder, though, as you increase in level and thus range, does the size of the globe increase or does the intensity of the light increase? Also, you do you think the caster can moderate the amount of light being put out? Is there a magical dimmer switch?

-Vek
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I'd say it gets brighter but, of course, everything is written with Palladium's usual exactitude. I'd also allow a caster to regulate the brightness down.

I'd normally agree but its too powerful a spell already. A level 1 spell that a wizard can pretty much keep going long enough that stops vamps and only costs 2ppe. stupid idea. If you are using it you deserve to be seen, from miles away, and by every vampire in existence so they can throw cows at you from the darkness.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by dreicunan »

kiralon wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
Veknironth wrote:Well, I always thought of it that way myself. I wonder, though, as you increase in level and thus range, does the size of the globe increase or does the intensity of the light increase? Also, you do you think the caster can moderate the amount of light being put out? Is there a magical dimmer switch?

-Vek
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I'd say it gets brighter but, of course, everything is written with Palladium's usual exactitude. I'd also allow a caster to regulate the brightness down.

I'd normally agree but its too powerful a spell already. A level 1 spell that a wizard can pretty much keep going long enough that stops vamps and only costs 2ppe. stupid idea. If you are using it you deserve to be seen, from miles away, and by every vampire in existence so they can throw cows at you from the darkness.

I completely disagree with you. The spell is in no way too powerful. The spell does nothing to stop the vampires from attacking you with ranged weapons. It just keeps then from engaing you in melee. It only lasts for 3 minutes per level. It can only move at a maximum speed of 12, so using it means sacrificing mobility.

Given how vampires can use mist shape, strategic withdrawals, their regen rates, and waves of attacks to kite you to death, I'm fine with giving their opponents a reliable pause button to the melee portion of the combat.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by kiralon »

Your argument sounds good but most meeting with vampires are at close range in a room. A level one wizard can keep one going for a while because of the cost (2ppe) Speed 12 is pretty common amongst wizards too and it means they have to use ranged weapons because they are kept at bay, most vampire encounters in the books are met by pc's in crypts and underground tunnels and the like, you walk into a room and there is a coffin, globe of day with just enough space at one edge so the vamp has to stay near the wall. Kill him with ranged weapons. At bay means that mist wont go through it, and daylight does a lot of damage to vampire. Western empire book defanged it a little say even though its day light its not daylight so it doesn't do damage and only keeps them at bay (why if it doesn't hurt them), unless you cast it inside their coffin, then it is daylight and wakes them up and does 3d6 damage per minute. Vampires are usually hth specialists, they like biting things, and most encounters are at close range underground with no easy escapes for them. But 2 ppe and lvl for a spell that defangs a vampire so well is pretty powerful.


Its one of those "The world has only existed for a couple days" moment. The vampires don't seem to have little flues in their rooms for escape as mist for example, and being immune to normal fires I would have a lot of traps that involve fighting in fire handy, and because fire burns wooden stakes nicely. Open my coffin and the room gets filled with an accelerant that is then set on fire. Goodbye van helsing.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by dreicunan »

kiralon wrote:Your argument sounds good but most meeting with vampires are at close range in a room. A level one wizard can keep one going for a while because of the cost (2ppe) Speed 12 is pretty common amongst wizards too and it means they have to use ranged weapons because they are kept at bay, most vampire encounters in the books are met by pc's in crypts and underground tunnels and the like, you walk into a room and there is a coffin, globe of day with just enough space at one edge so the vamp has to stay near the wall. Kill him with ranged weapons. At bay means that mist wont go through it, and daylight does a lot of damage to vampire. Western empire book defanged it a little say even though its day light its not daylight so it doesn't do damage and only keeps them at bay (why if it doesn't hurt them), unless you cast it inside their coffin, then it is daylight and wakes them up and does 3d6 damage per minute. Vampires are usually hth specialists, they like biting things, and most encounters are at close range underground with no easy escapes for them. But 2 ppe and lvl for a spell that defangs a vampire so well is pretty powerful.


Its one of those "The world has only existed for a couple days" moment. The vampires don't seem to have little flues in their rooms for escape as mist for example, and being immune to normal fires I would have a lot of traps that involve fighting in fire handy, and because fire burns wooden stakes nicely. Open my coffin and the room gets filled with an accelerant that is then set on fire. Goodbye van helsing.

Once staked, vamps burn as well, so I doubt that they would want normal fire around. Keep in mind that silver stakes wouldn't burn up.

Why don't you think that vampires have little flues for escape? Wild vampires likely wouldn't, but secondaries and masters would definitely think about things like that. They certainly are presented as doing so in the Rifts books on them. Masters aren't held at bay by globe of daylight anyway (at least not as of VKr).

In Mist form, the vampires are stated to be vulnerable to water and elemental magic. Still, nothing says that they can't move. If the globe if daylight actually covers the area they are in, they can still flee through it to get away. If not, well, then they are just going to be hanging around in mist form unless your fantasy party got some squirt guns from somewhere. If you are playing by just what is in Western Empire, squirt guns aren't mentioned as an option, and still water just hurts, but won't kill.

Globe of Daylight gives the party a pause button. It doesn't give an instant win against vampires if the vampires are played as having even a modicum of cunning.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by kiralon »

Going by the adventures with vamps in them doesn't mention any secret escape routes, and you mostly encounter them at point blank range in a room underground. The hunt in the western empire is one of the few encounters when they aren't but its usually come into room there's a vamp and the globe of daylight prevents its escape. As they are often in their coffin they also aren't usually carrying around ranged weapons (which do tend to be arrows and the like), but even then I can't remember many/any of the book vampires having ranged weaponry, that's why i mentioned the throwing of cows.

Its not an instant win if they are outside, but if you can dim the light at will you can box em in corners easily enough. All for 2ppe and a lvl 1 spell. Im guessing you haven't done many of the premade adventures in the palladium fantasy books.
My Vamps have escape holes, secret coffins and traps that will drain blood into those secret coffins to reanimate dormant vamps.

But i am saying that is a mighty powerful little spell. Vamps aren't the only things it effects. Since they don't add anything else but do say its true daylight, mummies aren't fond of it, creatures that are mostly blind in daylight don't like it and so on.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by Library Ogre »

kiralon wrote:Your argument sounds good but most meeting with vampires are at close range in a room. A level one wizard can keep one going for a while because of the cost (2ppe) Speed 12 is pretty common amongst wizards too and it means they have to use ranged weapons because they are kept at bay, most vampire encounters in the books are met by pc's in crypts and underground tunnels and the like, you walk into a room and there is a coffin, globe of day with just enough space at one edge so the vamp has to stay near the wall. Kill him with ranged weapons.


Or, have one to keep him in place... then summon another one. Surround yourself with Globes of Daylight. Put a soccer-ball-sized chunk of sunlight between his legs.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by kiralon »

+1
As GOD does no damage unless its in a coffin, just carry around little coffins that are just big enough to hold the globe of daylight with reflectors on the inside. Put the globe of daylight on the inside of them and point them at the vampire, they all do 3d6 per minute damage now that they are in a coffin. Rubbing their faces across the globe does no damage, chaining a vampire down and covering him in globes of daylight does no damage, but surrounding it and the vamp by wood/metal does. Does that mean a wood/metal panelled room would allow a globe of daylight to do damage. (its a coffin).
I still think its a ridiculous spell, it should either be daylight - does damage, or not daylight - doesn't do damage. Not it depends on where you hold your tongue when you cast.
The reason why vamps don't go into sunlight is they catch on fire, why would they be scared of a globe that doesn't hurt. Crosses keep them at bay, crosses set them on fire. Running water keeps them at bay as running water dissolves them into goo, painfully.
A piddly little light spell keeps them at bay because . . . if its cast into their coffin they take 3d6 damage a minute.
And I keep laughing when I read the bits about stuff being playtested.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, I thought I posted this before but I guess it didn't make it. So as far as I know, Globe of Daylight has no mass. So could you place it on top of or around the vampire (or anything else)? It may not be large enough to escapsulate the entire body (again, how big is the light source?) but it certainly should be able to surround the head. Would that do damage, since the creature is surrounded by light? Would it blind the creature?

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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by dreicunan »

If you can get the vampire in its coffin, you're doing it a favor by casting globe of daylight in there. Mist form and flee. Thank you for not staking me or doing something that is actually a threat to my continued existence.

If you are going by the western empire rules, it does 3d6 damage per minute. You keep saying that like it is a big deal. That's 4 melees. Vamps regen 2d6 per melee. So you are doing 3d6 damage in the time that they will regen 8d6.

I also don't understand why people think that globes of daylight immobilize vampires. They prevent vampires from entering, not from leaving. Cast it between,its legs and,he flees.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by kiralon »

If you can control the brightness you have it far enough away that hes not in it and do this 5 times and hes trapped. So yes effectively immobilised, especially if you combine it with a bit of paper with crosses cut out of it. Im just saying the spell is way to powerful for level 1 and 2ppe

And the reason I talked about the 3d6 damage a minute is that it only does damage to him while in his coffin. Surround his body by globes of daylight and he takes no damage.

As to surrounding a persons head id say not because in general magic doesn't go through solid objects, and if you go by the rules no damage unless you put the head in a coffin as well. If they a light sensitive I would make them go by their dayvision and get whatever negatives to sight they get for daylight (no effect if a human, very short vision range if a troglodyte for example) and it would only blind if daylight blinds, however if you go from pitch black or extremely dark to globe in front of you I would certainly say dazzled would be a possibility.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, I have to applaud the use of the word dazzle, even though it made me think of a vampire watching Hamilton for the first time.

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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by kiralon »

Veknironth wrote:Well, I have to applaud the use of the word dazzle, even though it made me think of a vampire watching Hamilton for the first time.

-Vek
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Sorry, never heard of it. Will look it up.
But I sort of, er borrowed the meaning from another game and it gives particular negatives in my games. Lets just say parrying is not easy when dazzled.

You like to ask the weird questions so here's one. Does the see invisible spell let a blind person see invisible creatures.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, I never. I ask insightful questions here. I say no. The person has to be able to see first. See the Invisible helps the existing vision see what is being masked by the invisibility magic. Now if you're in complete darkness, and someone is invisible, will see the invisible allow you to see that person? I guess it depends on how you envision the spell working. There must be some visual cue that let's you differentiate what is regularly visible and what is being revealed by the power. I imagine it as the invisible person who is revealed seems hazy or faint somehow. So, it wouldn't allow you to see in the dark.

Can a blind person see in the astral plane?

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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by dreicunan »

kiralon wrote:If you can control the brightness you have it far enough away that hes not in it and do this 5 times and hes trapped. So yes effectively immobilised, especially if you combine it with a bit of paper with crosses cut out of it. Im just saying the spell is way to powerful for level 1 and 2ppe

So if the vampire just stands there and lets you cast the spell 5 times, you can trap them. Palladium fantasy rules that would take, what, 2 and half melee rounds? The vampire would have at least 7 to 10 melee actions (using Western empire stats) to do something to avoid that.

Unless you are fighting the vampire in a hermetically sealed room, he could likeky mist and flee if nothing else.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by kiralon »

Veknironth wrote:Well, I never. I ask insightful questions here. I say no. The person has to be able to see first. See the Invisible helps the existing vision see what is being masked by the invisibility magic. Now if you're in complete darkness, and someone is invisible, will see the invisible allow you to see that person? I guess it depends on how you envision the spell working. There must be some visual cue that let's you differentiate what is regularly visible and what is being revealed by the power. I imagine it as the invisible person who is revealed seems hazy or faint somehow. So, it wouldn't allow you to see in the dark.

Can a blind person see in the astral plane?

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It doesn't mention anywhere that line of sight is required by the spell as a few others do. Wingtips don't have eyes but can see invisible.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by kiralon »

dreicunan wrote:
kiralon wrote:If you can control the brightness you have it far enough away that hes not in it and do this 5 times and hes trapped. So yes effectively immobilised, especially if you combine it with a bit of paper with crosses cut out of it. Im just saying the spell is way to powerful for level 1 and 2ppe

So if the vampire just stands there and lets you cast the spell 5 times, you can trap them. Palladium fantasy rules that would take, what, 2 and half melee rounds? The vampire would have at least 7 to 10 melee actions (using Western empire stats) to do something to avoid that.

Unless you are fighting the vampire in a hermetically sealed room, he could likely mist and flee if nothing else.

Every party I have been in is fleet feeted before starting a fight with vampires (or anything unfortunately) and if ambushed are fleet feeted in the first action round, and in the adventures you often meet vamps in a coffin, because who seriously goes after vampires during the night. I have had lots of parties interact with vamps and globe of daylight, with crosses makes them pretty much ignorable while you loot their tombs. Its the magic using ones that you have to watch out for.
Generally in a party at least 2 people can cast globe of daylight. To follow you example though the party comes into the room with a globe of daylight, the vamp turns into mist ready to flee, the casters put globes of daylight up in his exits that they cant follow so he has to go down a corridor at mist speed, which is easy to cast past and trap him. It makes them a lot easier to kill than you think, because the vamp generally only ever gets one attack before the globe of daylight hits and protects everyone, and as priests can continuously heal its rare for him to be able to do enough damage that the priest cant heal before the next encounter. Not to mention the ranger doing called shots for his heart. The spell should be light only and not effect vamps and the like unless of course the spell cost more to cast.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

It states that it keeps vampires at bay, but it doesn't say anything about how close they can get to it. Any surrounded animal will eventually panic and make a mad dash for safety, even rushing at the object that is surrounding it. I wouldn't allow a vamp to be trapped in this manner. It would panic and run right through.
Personally, I would allow master vamps to ignore it altogether if they made a save vs magic. They're smart and powerful enough to know that it can't actually hurt them.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, Kiralon, since we're in our own open subtopic I'll address it only to you. Wingtips can see without eyes, but there is some manner in which they see. So, if that were disabled a la a human being blind, then I would rule they can't see the invisible anymore. If your ability to see is no longer in existence, it's gone for all manner of seeing.

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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by kiralon »

Well they likely see by magic, and see invisible is magic - could be the same mechanism.
I only asked because my group found a blind old guy that needed to read a passage for them from a book and they needed the info badly and the plot was for them to take him to a healer to get healed and then read it. They decided to turn the book invisible and gave the old man a see invisible potion to see if he could read it.

I thought it was a funny idea and allowed it.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by kiralon »

Whiskeyjack wrote:It states that it keeps vampires at bay, but it doesn't say anything about how close they can get to it. Any surrounded animal will eventually panic and make a mad dash for safety, even rushing at the object that is surrounding it. I wouldn't allow a vamp to be trapped in this manner. It would panic and run right through.
Personally, I would allow master vamps to ignore it altogether if they made a save vs magic. They're smart and powerful enough to know that it can't actually hurt them.

Well the other vampire don't have to be smart to know it doesn't hurt them (except in a coffin), they find that out straight away, so why would it keep them at bay. They should just go and peel the mage like an apple and have mage ala king for tea that night.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

I would guess it's some sort of magic that keeps them at bay. :) That's why I'd only allow the master to resist it. The others are too weak.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by kiralon »

Whiskeyjack wrote:I would guess it's some sort of magic that keeps them at bay. :) That's why I'd only allow the master to resist it. The others are too weak.

its a level 1, 2ppe spell. You don't get any weaker.
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Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by Library Ogre »

kiralon wrote:
Whiskeyjack wrote:I would guess it's some sort of magic that keeps them at bay. :) That's why I'd only allow the master to resist it. The others are too weak.

its a level 1, 2ppe spell. You don't get any weaker.


1 PPE. :D
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kiralon
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Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:05 pm
Comment: Kill it with Fire.

Re: Globe of Daylight, redux

Unread post by kiralon »

Mark Hall wrote:
kiralon wrote:
Whiskeyjack wrote:I would guess it's some sort of magic that keeps them at bay. :) That's why I'd only allow the master to resist it. The others are too weak.

its a level 1, 2ppe spell. You don't get any weaker.


1 PPE. :D

Lol, What mark said, but I still stand by my point.
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