Fire elemental movement

[Whiskeyjack]

Something that came up in a game with the kids recently was a fire elemental summoned on board the characters boat. They wanted to send it to the boat attacking them to wreak havoc. Nothing I could stated if they walked or if they are capable of flight. They ended up using super TK to send it over to the other boat.
I don't have my copy of dragons and gods at home, so I can't dig further at the moment. Is there any canon reference to their mode of transport, and what do you do for them in your games. Would you allow TK to work to lift a being made of fire?

[The Beast]

Well normally if something is capable of flight the speed attribute will have a notation saying so. In this case I know in the old CB1 for Rifts that major fire elementals have a flight speed, but it's listed under the natural abilities of the energy form, so it's likely that when it has the body the major fire elemental doesn't have the ability to fly.

As far as TK Lift goes, it only augments the users lifting capabilities. This means he would have to carry the fire elemental across the water to the boat.

You used telekinesis and lift in the same sentence so I looked up the wrong power.

As long as the user has the ISP requirements for the weight he could at least lift the fire elemental. However I recall reading somewhere that the moment speed is quite low for trying to use it to fly.

[Prysus]

Something that came up in a game with the kids recently was a fire elemental summoned on board the characters boat. They wanted to send it to the boat attacking them to wreak havoc. Nothing I could stated if they walked or if they are capable of flight.

Greetings and Salutations. Usually an elemental will describe their method of movement. However, I'd say the default is Walk, unless otherwise specified. Since the above is regarding Fire Elementals, then I say this even more so. Dragons & Gods doesn't specify flight, and PF2 main book (page 111) even gives an example of a Fire Elemental "stomping" and "stepping."

They ended up using super TK to send it over to the other boat.
I don't have my copy of dragons and gods at home, so I can't dig further at the moment. Is there any canon reference to their mode of transport, and what do you do for them in your games.

Well, in the absence of Dragons & Gods (I have it, but since you don't), I'd probably use the Elemental Fragments (Warlock spells) as a baseline. So, if I had to make a ruling using only PF2 as an example, I'd look at Flame Friend (PF2, page 236) with its movement speed of 25 mph. Air Elementals meanwhile specify a "flying" speed, and the Water Wisp specifies a "swimming" speed. So I'd say (as this is generally how Palladium operates), if flight or swimming or other movement isn't specified, then it's land speed.

Would you allow TK to work to lift a being made of fire?

Probably not. This will depend on how you work TK though.

Would you allow TK to move just the fire from a campfire? I'd say no, but you could move a log with the fire on it.
Would you allow TK to pick up and move a poisonous cloud? I'd say no.
What about just moving the air out from around a person so they'd suffocate? Again, I'd say no.

One of the reasons I'd say no to both of the above is that neither have any weight (at least not as listed), and TK works specifically with a weight restriction. As a result, allowing movement of said items means there's no limit to how much of it you can move, as long as it's within range. Elementals are the embodiment of their signs (more or less). So Fire is living flame, Water is living water, Air is air, and Earth is mounds of Earth moving about. So if you can't move fire, then you can't move a Fire Elemental. On the other hand, you could move an Earth Elemental, if you could spend enough I.S.P. (Minor Earth Elementals are listed at around 100 lbs to a ton, and good luck with the Major Earth Elementals). Note: Minor Air Elementals actually have a weight listed. As such, I'd allow it for those.

I should add that simply because something doesn't have a weight listed doesn't mean it's immune to TK, in my opinion. For example, I'm not sure a pencil has a weight listed in any of the books, but I'd say you can still move a pencil. Also, if you use a spell to make a character weightless, then they're still vulnerable to TK as well. Air and Fire are a little different though, and hopefully I don't need to elaborate too much more on that concept.

Anyways, that's my opinion and reasoning for it. Hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[Reagren Wright]

This came up recently as well. Their weight is listed as Not Applicable. Yet it has
S.D.C. and take actual damage. It can lift up soldi objects and hit with impact force
(supernatural P.S.). So this thing doesn't have weight yet it has mass????

The minor fire elemental was following his master (player character's warlock) then it
stopped as it came near a swamp. It didnt want ot get weat. As Prysus said they
have a walk speed, not a flying speed. Very strange creature that defies physics. '

[Library Ogre]

An alternative: Rather than lift the fire elemental, have it stand on something and lift that.

[ShadowLogan]

This came up recently as well. Their weight is listed as Not Applicable. Yet it has
S.D.C. and take actual damage. It can lift up soldi objects and hit with impact force
(supernatural P.S.). So this thing doesn't have weight yet it has mass????

The minor fire elemental was following his master (player character's warlock) then it
stopped as it came near a swamp. It didnt want ot get weat. As Prysus said they
have a walk speed, not a flying speed. Very strange creature that defies physics. '

Well TK can act as a Force, so I suspect that in this case (and others like it) that the Super Natural PS is more of a Telekinetic level that doesn't require ISP/PPE expenditure. Such a thing is not unheard of in the megaverse for beings to have Psychic powers at no (or reduced) cost.

While Force = mass * acceleration, we also know in physics that Energy = mass * speed of light squared. So we could rearrange and substitute to give us:

Force = (Energy / speed of light squared) * acceleration

There probably are a few other ways to look at it to from a physics standpoint to I would suspect to generate a force. Though as a Supernatural or Magical Force it doesn't have to follow physics.

[The Beast]

This came up recently as well. Their weight is listed as Not Applicable. Yet it has
S.D.C. and take actual damage. It can lift up soldi objects and hit with impact force
(supernatural P.S.). So this thing doesn't have weight yet it has mass????

The minor fire elemental was following his master (player character's warlock) then it
stopped as it came near a swamp. It didnt want ot get weat. As Prysus said they
have a walk speed, not a flying speed. Very strange creature that defies physics. '

And that's why they're supernatural beings.

[Whiskeyjack]

Thanks for all the replies. The fact that they can lift/hit/carry items was why I allowed it. They appear to have mass of some sort.