How do you handle a Knockout situation

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kiralon
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How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by kiralon »

Say the players want to sneak up and knock out a 1st level soldier guard. He has 21hp and 25 sdc, they don't want to kill him but don't want him calling for help either. Do you allow a single hit ko from behind from a level 5 pc. His hp and sdc combined means he will take 6 or 7 blows before he drops (not to mention armour) so if they do get into a fight he will have time to call for help.




(This reminds of an old dungeon magazine picture of a heap of archers trying to execute a barbarian and they run out of arrows)
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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, this might be one of those situations in which you ignore the rules. They aren't really set up for this sort of maneuver. I'd take into consideration the OCC, skills, and level of the attacker. In reality, it's very difficult to knock someone unconscious with pinpoint blunt force trauma. It can be done, but it's really tough. You can brain someone and stun them, or put them in a choke hold that will keep them quiet and render them unconscious quickly. The problem is they regain consciousness rather quickly as well.

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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by The Beast »

The RAW answer is that the player has to call it before rolling to strike, and they need a natural 19 or 20. This can be modified by your HtH skill a bit, and by the Boxing skill.

If you want to take a slightly more Hollywood approach to it, I suggest dropping the "natural die roll" bit and allowing knockouts on modified die rolls. I would still keep the rule of the players needing to call it before rolling though.
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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by kiralon »

That is a pretty unlikely scenario, especially considering there is no wp fist so at best you get +2 to strike.
or do fists come under wp blunt ?
It seems to me that if you are expecting the hit a ko is harder than if you aren't expecting it. The way I do it at the moment is

Can't already be in combat
Attacker has to make prowl check to approach the take unnoticed (ignored works too if you are in an appropriate disguise).
Then 16+ to hit the right location.
(BlackJacks have a bonus of %1 per damage so do %3 and %6 respectively)
Then %2 per damage for KO, which increases to %5 when damage goes over targets PE.
A Full Suit of armour reduces the KO chance by the AR (Full suits always have helmets, but a soft leather cap will reduce the chance by %8 etc)
If the first blow succeeds but doesn't KO the Defender is stunned and the attacker can keep trying for the rest of the round, but if the defender isn't KO'd by end of round normal combat starts.

Also my rounds are only 10 seconds rather than 15.

but players complain that its too hard and show me a myriad of ko's from youtube (Which my response is how many punches were thrown to get that ko)
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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by Glistam »

By the book they need to be level 13 in Hand to Hand Basic, Expert, or Martial Arts (Critical strike or knockout from behind), Or be Level 11 in Hand to Hand Expert and roll well (Knockout/stun on an unmodified roll of 18, 19, or 20), or be level 7 in Hand to Hand Assassin and roll well (Knockout/stun on an unmodified roll of 17-20). Alternatively, have Boxing and roll an unmodified 20.
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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by Glistam »

kiralon wrote:but players complain that its too hard and show me a myriad of ko's from youtube

Next time they want to cast a magic spell, activate a psychic power, or do anything fantastical, demand they show you a YouTube video of it happening in the real world first or else the ability fails.
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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by kiralon »

Glistam wrote:
kiralon wrote:but players complain that its too hard and show me a myriad of ko's from youtube

Next time they want to cast a magic spell, activate a psychic power, or do anything fantastical, demand they show you a YouTube video of it happening in the real world first or else the ability fails.

Lol, that is something I am going to do.
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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, if it's Hollywood as a guide, then you hit someone in the back of the head anywhere, they go unconscious, fall to the ground without making a sound (or fall backwards to be caught), and then disappear.

If you're going for a more realistic approach, hitting someone in the back of the head will rarely knock someone out. Punching them in the face won't knock them out. Nothing, aside from cutting off circulation to the brain or a sedative, is going to knock someone out. YouTube videos of people being knocked out don't include all the other punches that didn't knock someone out. Just watch a random MMA fight and see how many punches or kicks it takes before someone is hit just right to be knocked out.

So, you can either decide to let it work situationally, use the very difficult rules in the book, or some house rules. Here's a devilish option. Let the PC's try to knock someone out and when it fails, shrug. Then let them try it again. When it fails shrug. See how long it takes them to stop trying it.

Or, magic/psionics.

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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by kiralon »

Blackjacks and cosh's and the like certainly knock people out, but the reason the police stopped using them was it was hard not to do permanent serious damage and could be sued, but I guess if someone hit me once with a lead bar I wouldn't be getting up all that quick either. The movies don't show that when you knocked that guard unconscious you gave him permanent brain damage.
And sdc is one of the reasons I don't like second ed. How many arrows can a level 1 character take and still keep going (If this is a problem for you try this, the arrow sticks in and it does the arrows damage everytime the person does an action per arrow sticking in them, that slows em down).

Also mma fights are mostly aware fights, a lot of the knockouts I see are when the person isn't expecting it so doesn't try to move the head out of the way.
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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, I think that blackjacks and saps are less likely to knock someone out than a lead pipe, but they aren't as damaging. That's sort of why the old school cops used them instead of batons. Eventually, they stopped hitting people in the head as a common tactic. But yeah, blunt force trauma to the head is bad.

I've long railed against SDC. It's extra HP. An average arrow does 3 points of damage and the average warrior PC can have 50 or 60 SDC. So, a good 20 or so arrows could be absorbed before even getting into HP.

I see what you mean with the punches. They are showing you sucker punch videos. Of course, they aren't going with all the sucker punch videos in which the person doesn't fall down unconscious.

I think they should just look for another method of knocking someone out. Try something that doesn't depend on mechanics or such an unreliable tactic. It's always tricky when there is something the PCs want to do that isn't covered by canon.

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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by kiralon »

or just hire the thieves guild to do it, that also works.

but I assumed most/all dm's would have hit this problem multiple times, or done it as players. Did by the book work, or house rules?
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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I'd go house rules, myself, simply because RAW is terribly inadequate for this. As mentioned, magic or psionics would be a good way to do it, RAW, as would some variety of poison. If those aren't options, consider how to finagle it around boxing or wrestling... the famous Sleeper hold?
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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by kiralon »

Magic and psionics is almost as unreliable (if not more so), but poison is probably the way to go. Something from the yin sloth jungles perhaps.
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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by Suicycho »

Maybe something simple like PE worth of damage to the back of an unsuspecting victims head.
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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by Hendrik »

I handle knockout as per the rules. I think it is quite realistic. I agree that it is not satisfying in all situations.

The GM may want to add to the cinematic drama of the situation and allow an easier knockout as well as kind of reward that the players, for once ;-) , do not want to kill but just subdue.

Under the rules as written, I only see a Neck Hold as an option, but there are no rules about how long you have to choke until someone falls unconsicous.

I have no chance to look it up now but I seem to remember that drowning takes PE/2 number of melees or rounds. For a Neck Hold rounds would be a looooong time. I would rule that you have to successfully choke someone for PE/2 number of melees before that person has to roll vs coma/death to see if he falls unconscious, which would be highly likely unless the held person has a great PE stat. During the time of the hold, the held person would be able to try to break out of the hold every melee. During the hold, he could be attacked (knockouts, for example) every melee be a companion of the holder.

That may not be totally satisfactory but it is kind of within the rules.

My question to the players when they want something to their advantage is always: Do you REALLY want this? It would also be used against you. I mean, if you want to be able to ninja drop your enemies in 1 melee action flat ... sure ... but next it might happen to you :-)
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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Suicycho wrote:Maybe something simple like PE worth of damage to the back of an unsuspecting victims head.


Hackmaster has a mechanic called the Threshold of Pain, and Trauma Checks.

Your Threshold of pain is about 35% of your HP (30%+1% per level, or 2% per level for fighters; monsters are calculated at a flat 40%). If a single hit does more than that, then you make a Trauma Check.

Roll a d20p under 1/2 your Constitution. If you're at or under, you're fine. If you're over, you're down (awake, alive, in pain, maybe screaming) for 5 seconds for every point you missed by. Roll a 20? You're unconscious for minutes at a time. LOTS of a fights wind up getting solved by the TOP, and thieves, multiclass thieves, and assassins are effective at the Coup de Grace (I refer to thieves following behind fighters, finishing off the downed opponents as "The Ol' TOPnChop, which actually got used in a KoDT)

Assassins lower your effective TOP, meaning they're better at dropping you in a single shot.
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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by The Beast »

Hendrik wrote:I handle knockout as per the rules. I think it is quite realistic. I agree that it is not satisfying in all situations.

The GM may want to add to the cinematic drama of the situation and allow an easier knockout as well as kind of reward that the players, for once ;-) , do not want to kill but just subdue.

Under the rules as written, I only see a Neck Hold as an option, but there are no rules about how long you have to choke until someone falls unconsicous.

I have no chance to look it up now but I seem to remember that drowning takes PE/2 number of melees or rounds. For a Neck Hold rounds would be a looooong time. I would rule that you have to successfully choke someone for PE/2 number of melees before that person has to roll vs coma/death to see if he falls unconscious, which would be highly likely unless the held person has a great PE stat. During the time of the hold, the held person would be able to try to break out of the hold every melee. During the hold, he could be attacked (knockouts, for example) every melee be a companion of the holder.

That may not be totally satisfactory but it is kind of within the rules.

My question to the players when they want something to their advantage is always: Do you REALLY want this? It would also be used against you. I mean, if you want to be able to ninja drop your enemies in 1 melee action flat ... sure ... but next it might happen to you :-)


Rifter 3 has an optional rule for choke holds. The rule there was that it did (1d4+db)/2 per attack, and the victim had to save vs Pain (14 or better) every attack or lose consciousness.
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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by kiralon »

When you get high enough level in hth basic or expert you get auto ko from behind which is sort of what I want but I don't like the fact that the target just goes down, but the pain threshold is also an idea as there is a save vs pain/unconsciousness.
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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, a rear naked choke hold, which cuts off the carotid artery supplying oxygenated blood to the brain will take at most 20 seconds to knock someone out. Minimum time is around 5 seconds.

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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Veknironth wrote:Well, a rear naked choke hold, which cuts off the carotid artery supplying oxygenated blood to the brain will take at most 20 seconds to knock someone out. Minimum time is around 5 seconds.


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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by kiralon »

Veknironth wrote:-Vek
"Holding it much longer can easily result in brain damage or death."

So can hitting someone in the head with a lead wrapped club.

I thought this would have been a situation that would have actually happened a few times to people here but guess not.
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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by Hendrik »

The Beast wrote:Rifter 3 has an optional rule for choke holds. The rule there was that it did (1d4+db)/2 per attack, and the victim had to save vs Pain (14 or better) every attack or lose consciousness.

Thanks, Beast! I had forgotten about this optional rule. I will check it out; like what laid out :-)
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Re: How do you handle a Knockout situation

Unread post by kiralon »

That's along the lines of what I was looking for.

Cheers for that.
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