WP: Lance

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Greyaxe
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WP: Lance

Unread post by Greyaxe »

Shouldn't there be strike and parry bonuses for this WP?

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kiralon
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Re: WP: Lance

Unread post by kiralon »

My house rules for lances are
Use WP Spear bonuses
Natively have -12 to parry
Have first strike (which most polearms negate)
Makes the user equivalent of 2 size categories larger for who can parry the lance (Have to be on back of horse/mount), so ogres cant parry, but trolls or bigger can, especially if using shields.
Are armour ignoring based on speed (faster you go the bigger the bonus to damage that automatically penetrates armour). Halve your speed in kph and that's how much damage can get through the armour before AR is considered. Standard warhorse is about 40-45 kph so ~22 points will ignore armour, and the modified strike roll is 19 or higher its classed as a knockdown blow.
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Greyaxe
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Re: WP: Lance

Unread post by Greyaxe »

kiralon wrote:My house rules for lances are
Use WP Spear bonuses
Natively have -12 to parry
Have first strike (which most polearms negate)
Makes the user equivalent of 2 size categories larger for who can parry the lance (Have to be on back of horse/mount), so ogres cant parry, but trolls or bigger can, especially if using shields.
Are armour ignoring based on speed (faster you go the bigger the bonus to damage that automatically penetrates armour). Halve your speed in kph and that's how much damage can get through the armour before AR is considered. Standard warhorse is about 40-45 kph so ~22 points will ignore armour, and the modified strike roll is 19 or higher its classed as a knockdown blow.

That is a fantastic set of house rules.
I like the wp spear rule, and the first strike, unless a pole arm or pike is used to defend. Do you find inflicting a bonus of 22 points of damage for a full charge over powered? My paladin has a PS of 26, on a horse +6 damage and + 3d6 for a charge (9 average) for a total of +26 points of damage... So does the +22 damage stack on that or does it replace the +26 damage?
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Re: WP: Lance

Unread post by kiralon »

Its started out as a bonus to damage but was too nasty. All it means now is the first 22 points of damage ignore armour. eg

So with your 26 points of damage, the first 22 ignores all armour, and the last 4 is, so if you hit another knight with an ar of 17 and 25hp (I don't use sdc for non exo skeleton creatures) if your roll was higher than the AR he takes all 26 and is unconscious, if you didn't penetrate the armour he still takes 22 damage as it ignores armour because of the lance, the other 4 damage gets stopped by the armour.

Lances for jousting have a specially designed ball head that negates the armour penetration, and gives the armour an effective +2 to its AR, and always pulls punch to halve damage.
When Jousting
1 hits horse, 2-4 hits head, 5-12 hits shield, 13-15 hits leg, 16-20 hits chest.
This goes off your roll to strike, say you roll a 13 and have +3 to hit with lance. You get a 16 for parrying and armour penetration, but you can choose 10-16 for location hit. This number is the number they have to beat to maintain balance and stay on the horse.
A head hit Stuns giving -2 strike, -4 parry, halves foot speed gives - %30 to skill checks (and -6 to maintain balance) until rested. Next hit is likely to knock you off your horse.
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Re: WP: Lance

Unread post by Hotrod »

My own house rules are in addition to the rules as written:

1. W.P. Lance gives the same strike bonus as W.P. Spear in addition to bonuses from horsemanship.
2. Lances cannot be used to parry and get no bonuses when thrown, so they get no other bonuses.
3. Lances are used in charge attacks from horseback (or other riding animal) only. They require at least 20 yards or so of space, so they cannot be used in stationary combat.
4. Lance attacks vs another lance attack or a prepared pike (not a normal spear or pole-arm) are always resolved as simultaneous attacks. Lances automatically get initiative over all other melee weapons. Missile and thrown weapons get initiative over lance attackers.
5. Immediately after the lance attack, the horseman may charge on by or stop.
6. If the lance attacker charges on through, and the opponent has not lost an attack by dodging or getting knocked down, the opponent may make one attack as the rider passes by. No other melee attacks are possible by either combatant. If the opponent has been knocked down, the lance attacker may opt to trample the prone opponent (this is not done at tournaments).
7. If the lance attacker opts to stop after the attack, no further attacks are possible by lance, and the rider may use horse attacks and/or another melee weapon, with standard bonuses from horseback, for the rest of that melee round.
8. If two lance attackers charge each other, and both remain on horseback, then both must decide to stop and continue melee combat.

Basically, a lot of the usual melee round combat drill goes out the window with W.P. lance, and combat with the lance is generally a matter of charge attack, run through, turn around, and charge attack again. With the mounted damage bonus, the charge attack bonus, and potentially knockdown and trample damage, and limited options for defenders, this is a devastating style of fighting enemies on foot.
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Re: WP: Lance

Unread post by Braden Campbell »

Just use the 1st edition bonuses (+1 str at levs 1&2; +1 more to strike every 2 levs beyond that ... +1 to parry at levs 3, 6, 9, 12, & 15 ... +1 to throw at levs 4, 7, 10, & 13.)

Don't forget your damage bonuses from attacking via horseback (+2D6...3D6 if your a Paladin), as well as the +1 initiative. So, a single, 5th-level Paladin is dishing out something like 5D6+2 + PS bonuses, and is at least +3 to strike (+2 more from their hand-hand), and +3 to initiative. Also, triple damage on a natural 20. And this is all by the book, sans house rules.
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Re: WP: Lance

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Greyaxe wrote:Shouldn't there be strike and parry bonuses for this WP?

My Search Foo was weak.

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/foru ... =5&t=73533

Triple damage for a crit on nat die roll of 19 & 20 is not enough?
This in addition to the bonuses for being on horseback?

I think 'The Way of the Lance' is just fine and realistic as it is. The char is striking from a ""moving vehicle""; the horse.
---
The down side with using a lance as just a spear (ie using the WP Spear) is that there is no triple damage on a crit strike.
And no, like normal, WPs do not stack together.

This is the PF forum so we are using the PF WP lance as the basis of discussion.
As such....
1 WP Lance in the canon text gives no strike, parry or throw bonuses what so ever Hotrod.
2 All lance strikes and parries are done with the nat die roll when using them with the WP Lance.
3 Used in charging attacks.....just like in the movies.
4 ....
5 the horseman, after they follow through the attack, may just keep on riding or may slow and turn to attack otherwise.

Note that most often the lance breaks when used or is often stuck in the target. Rarely does it remain usable just after a lance attack has been just made.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: WP: Lance

Unread post by kiralon »

And saying that a level 1 knight or paladin is as good or almost as a level 15 knight with a lance is ridiculous. The reason for wp's seemed to be the fact that you got better with them. There is no progression with a lance which is very boring if you do a knight orientated game with a lot of jousting, and with wp spear its just using the bonuses from it and calling it wp lance. Do I think it likely that they forgot to put in WP bonuses, truly yes, the fact that first ed had them and other books have them tells me its just another editing error.
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Re: WP: Lance

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

kiralon wrote:And saying that a level 1 knight or paladin is as good or almost as a level 15 knight with a lance is ridiculous. ...snip

Yes, it would be ridiculous if they didn't get better with the lance with leveling up. But they do get better as they progress in levels. I never said that they don't get the char PP bonus nor did I say that they don't get the char's h2h bonus.

They just don't get a bonus from 'The Way of the Lance' the WP Lance.

This is besides the point that chars with TWotL are not 'shooting wild' with it and get a penalty for not having the WP for the weapon.

Yep the penalties are not enumerated because normally the lance is a weapon of nobility, so peasants would not take it up. So why spend space for something that is not going to come up due to the OCC restrictions placed on it.
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Re: WP: Lance

Unread post by kiralon »

They don't get better with a lance, they stay at the same bonus to strike and parry that they get with a weapon they aren't trained in, HtH martial arts only gives +2 strike at level 2, +'s to strike are mainly the purview of WP's, and if you wanted to parry with a lance you would need arms like a gorilla.
or look at it this way
A level 15 knight hits you with a lance at full charge unless he has a high pp he's only got %50 chance to penetrate studded leather, whereas if he hits you with a stick he's picked up off the ground he has a %50 chance to penetrate full plate, not to mention they like running round knocking hats off with lances and other fun things like that.
Would you let a level 2 knight try to knock an apple off your head with a lance charge knowing he's got the same chance/skill to hit as a level 15 knight.
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Re: WP: Lance

Unread post by 13eowulf »

There is a (semi)official answer on the cutting room floor section of the main site. It is question 146 under the Combat Rules Question section.

Link to the specific section: http://palladiumbooks.com/index.php?opt ... Itemid=200

146. Does W.P. Lance give pluses to strike and parry at certain levels like with the other weapons? That is not listed under The Way of the Lance.
Answer: They do not receive any bonuses to strike or parry.
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Re: WP: Lance

Unread post by dreicunan »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Greyaxe wrote:Shouldn't there be strike and parry bonuses for this WP?

My Search Foo was weak.

http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/foru ... =5&t=73533

What is not double damage not enough? And triple damage for a crit on nat die roll of 19 & 20?
This in addition to the bonuses for being on horseback?

I think 'The Way of the Lance' is just fine and realistic as it is.

The down side with using a lance as just a spear (ie using the WP Spear) is that there is no double damage, and no triple damage on a crit strike.
And no, like normal, WPs do not stack together.

This is the PF forum so we are using the PF WP lance as the basis of discussion.
As such....
1 WP Lance in the canon text gives no strike, parry or throw bonuses what so ever Hotrod.
2 All lance strikes and parries are done with the nat die roll when using them with the WP Lance.
3 Used in charging attacks.....just like in the movies.
4 ....
5 the horseman, after they follow through the attack, may just keep on riding or may slow and turn to attack otherwise.

Note that most often the lance breaks when used or is often stuck in the target. Rarely does it remain usable just after a lance attack has been just made.

Mind giving us a citation for this double damage of which you speak? All I'm seeing in PF2 is that you do triple on a crit instead of double (range depending on if you are a knight or palladin) and normal otherwise.

Personally I'd use the WP bonuses from 1st edition as well.
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drewkitty ~..~
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Re: WP: Lance

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

skimming typo, has been edited.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
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Re: WP: Lance

Unread post by dreicunan »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:skimming typo, has been edited.
:ok:
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Declared the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not by Axelmania on 5.11.19.
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