What Level Are People

[Library Ogre]

No, not you, specifically, but the average person in the Palladium World? If there is not a story reason for them to be another level, what level might you expect a 30 year old human to be? What about a 300 year old elf? Or a 20 year old orc? What's your rule of thumb for deciding that Gaffer McGee is an X level Commoner, or that Billy who just got back from the war is a Y level Soldier?

[glitterboy2098]

i would say younger characters (14ish to late 20's) would be in the Level 1-4 range
older chars (30's onwards) would probably be 5-7 range.
for non humans just convert these to the nearest equivalent age brackets.

of course this would all be "unless their backstory suggests otherwise."

[The Beast]

They are "I simply don't care" level.


No, I'm serious about that. If they're not an important NPC I don't care about any of their stats, skills, or powers unless the PCs would do something that require me to roll for. At that point, I'd pick a random number and go from there.

[kiralon]

Most people in the world are lvl 1-3 depending on profession, but get a bonus to their profession skills per year
Jak the 50 year old farmer is lvl3, but the equivalent of level 8 in things like plant/farm lore, growing cows and that sort of thing.

A level 8 jak the farmer would just make him to tough.

[smashed]

Most people that have uneventful lives I would put at levels 1-3 regardless of their age.

People that have more exciting lives, like Billy who spent 4 years as a solider, probably around 6. Lower if all he did was guard duty, higher if it was 4 years of constant war.

[Hotrod]

They are "I simply don't care" level.


No, I'm serious about that. If they're not an important NPC I don't care about any of their stats, skills, or powers unless the PCs would do something that require me to roll for. At that point, I'd pick a random number and go from there.

I sometimes wonder if it would be useful to create some NPC generators for Palladium Fantasy like the ones I've created for Rifts to help keep the guesswork or prepwork down.

[Library Ogre]

So, Prysus, you tend to be on the spot with comprehensive data... any of the books give you a general census?

[The Beast]

They are "I simply don't care" level.


No, I'm serious about that. If they're not an important NPC I don't care about any of their stats, skills, or powers unless the PCs would do something that require me to roll for. At that point, I'd pick a random number and go from there.

I sometimes wonder if it would be useful to create some NPC generators for Palladium Fantasy like the ones I've created for Rifts to help keep the guesswork or prepwork down.

Your bandit generators are good, as they at least include potential loot for the players in them. But if I'm GM'ing I'm not looking to give myself more work than needed for some random merchant, farmer, or other NPC that the players aren't going to spend more than two minutes with by rolling then up.

[Library Ogre]

They are "I simply don't care" level.


No, I'm serious about that. If they're not an important NPC I don't care about any of their stats, skills, or powers unless the PCs would do something that require me to roll for. At that point, I'd pick a random number and go from there.

I sometimes wonder if it would be useful to create some NPC generators for Palladium Fantasy like the ones I've created for Rifts to help keep the guesswork or prepwork down.

Your bandit generators are good, as they at least include potential loot for the players in them. But if I'm GM'ing I'm not looking to give myself more work than needed for some random merchant, farmer, or other NPC that the players aren't going to spend more than two minutes with by rolling then up.

Oh, aye, and I wouldn't bother to roll up most of the NPCs they'll encounter... but, should I need to pull a set of stats out for an otherwise unremarkable NPC, the question of appropriate levels, and their relatively consistent application, comes up. And, when you bear in mind that skill use adds to XP, to say nothing of achieving personal goals and so on, it seems odd that a 30 year old would be level 1 or 2, but likewise odd that they'd be level 10 without some great event in their past.

[Prysus]

So, Prysus, you tend to be on the spot with comprehensive data... any of the books give you a general census?

Greetings and Salutations. Thou has summoned me?

Truth be told, I'm not sure. Somewhere in the back of my mind I feel like I read that the average NPC is kind of low level, with my wanting to say around 3rd or 4th level. I feel like I read that once somewhere (probably back around the time when I first was starting with Palladium around 20 years ago now), but I can't remember where (I've actually been looking for the past few days). What I can find is ...

Estimate the general level of experience. Low (1-3), medium (4-7), high (8th and up).

This isn't much in and of itself, but we see here that "medium" level is 4-7. This could be medium because that's where most people in general fall, or just because it's considered average for player characters (who are "set apart from the norm"). The next quote might be a bit more useful (but I'll tie it back to this one, which is why I list it first) ...

The experience system is designed so that characters will mature fairly rapidly, tapering off as they reach higher levels of experience (around fifth and sixth).

This passage tells us advancing at early levels isn't very hard, so most people could get to 3rd or 4th without too much trouble (see my starting estimate), but around 5th or 6th are "higher" levels where advancement tapers off. If we continue on the same page a little further on the same page ...

... after two and a half years of regular, weekly, long (averaged around 9 hours) playing sessions; the characters averaged 7th to 9th level and progressing, ever so slowly, toward tenth level.

This is the experience level of a play group, that had a lot of adventuring (with around 1,170 hours of game play, using once a week at 9 hours a game for 2 and a half years). I'm figuring the average NPC probably didn't go through half of that stuff in their lifetime (if you half a 7th level's character experience, you'd end up at around level 5 by the way), but that is just a personal guess. From the current evidence, looking like NPC will probably be level 5 would probably be high for a NPC, but doable.

Okay, that's the best I can find in PF2 main book. However, I know there are some NPC forts in PF2: Old Ones. I'll look there next (and I am typing up the facts regardless of what I find). While I could look at cities, I recall the forts having large groups (such as "x long bowmen of Y level").

Old Ones, page 133, Fort Aberla: The soldiers here are 4th level and lower (most lower). The named NPC are level 6 and lower.
Old Ones, page 134, Fort Ac: 4th level and lower (most lower). The named NPC are levels 7 and 2.
Old Ones, page 135, Fort Alandia: 5th level and lower, and considered "seasoned veterans." Named NPC is 7th level.
Old Ones, page 135, Fort Areal: 4th level and lower (most lower). Named NPC is 7th level.
Old Ones, page 136, Fort Bext: 6th level and lower, and considered "seasoned veterans." Named NPC are levels 6 and 4.
Old Ones, page 136, Fort Brandt: I don't see their levels mentioned, but this is a new fort with the only named NPC at 3rd level (and he's not really part of the fort).
Old Ones, page 136, Fort Calda: The soldiers are mentioned to have been "mid-level," but no specifics.
Old Ones, page 136: Fort Clay: 4th level and lower (most lower). Named NPC is 6th level.
Old Ones, page 138, Fort Garr: 4th level and lower (most lower). Named NPC are 7th and 5th levels.
Old Ones, page 138, Fort Hilde: 5th level and lower. Named NPC is 4th level.
Old Ones, page 139, Fort Ibera: 3rd level and lower (most lower). Named NPC is 5th level.
Old Ones, page 139, Fort Ibi: 4th level and lower (and the 4th level long bowmen are considered "the best"), and seasoned veterans. Named NPC is 6th level.
Old Ones, page 140, Fort Indo: 5th level and lower (most lower). Named NPC is multi-classed for 26 total levels (levels 15, 10, and 6)!
Old Ones, page 140, Fort Isib: 4th level and lower (most lower). Named NPC is 9th level.
Old Ones, page 140, Fort Kafi: 3rd level and lower. Named NPC is multi-classed for 7 total levels (levels 4 and 3).
Old Ones, page 141, Fort Mirr: 5th level and lower (most lower). Named NPC is 7th level.
Old Ones, page 141, Fort Pont: 2nd level and lower. Named NPC is 8th level.
Old Ones, page 141, Fort Saka: 4th level and lower (most lower). Named NPC are 5th level and lower.
Old Ones, page 142, Fort Seb: 3rd level and lower. Named NPC is 5th level.
Old Ones, page 142: Fort Tanda: 3rd level and lower of those mentioned (over half the fort doesn't have a level mentioned). Named NPC is multi-classed for 10 total levels (6 and 4).
Old Ones, page 142, Fort Tirr: 5th level and lower (most lower). Named NPC are 10th and 6th levels.

of the named NPC, I noticed that 60 appeared to be the oldest age listed, with 40's and 50's being common (that includes Elves and Dwarves). The level 26 multi-classed Elf did not have an age listed that I saw. The average NPC was 4th level and lower, with a good number being lower (though we don't know how old they are). The "seasoned veterans" tended to be around 5th level and lower (some of which are noted as having fought in a war 12 years ago, so we can gather they're on the older side for humans).

Going by the numbers provided, even those who saw some action are only 5th level. Kevin writes how the higher levels (5th and higher) are designed to taper off. So most humans won't reach much higher than that 5th, and I'd personally guess 4th and lower is common enough. Elder races such as Elves and Dwarves might get higher levels in their elder years, but probably not by much. Palladium tends to figure the average NPC isn't out adventuring and racking up experience points. As you get older, unless you keep experiencing new things, you probably won't get as much out of it either. I'd guess (and this is my opinion) that the average NPC wouldn't get much higher than level 6 or 7 even for long lived races. Note: As a general rule, I don't tend to include Named NPC as "average," but closer to Player Characters who tend to be above average (but not quite as epic as our heroes).

That's what I can provide at the moment. I'll admit I started off with the lower level notion, but I did my best to keep an open mind should the facts present different conclusions. If anyone has any other references they'd like me to check out, I'm willing to do the research. However, I doubt I'll ever find the note I thought I remembered reading once upon a time. Hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[The Dark Elf]

I never bother unless they will use a skill or combat.

But it would likely depend on how long theyve been in their profession as opposed to how old they are.

[Veknironth]

Well, another thing I'd consider is the physicality of a position. OCC's like Scholar, Merchant, and a lot of the Magic OCC's can continue to learn and improve on their skills and abilities even as they lose the vim of youth. Men-at-Arms OCC's are going to cease being able to perform a lot of what makes them men-at-arms and will give them a shorter window for progression. A 60-year old soldier has probably been retired for 10-15 years. A 60-year old Merchant can still conduct trade.

-Vek
"Although, I doubt the 60-year old merchant is gaining that much EXP."

[Lukterran]

I like to use the following chart to determine the average time it take to achieve a level and the average level of a person in the Palladium World. (Primarily based off of a Human lifespan of 60 years).

1st level - Finishing up Apprenticeship or Class training (normally happens around age 17-21)
2nd level - Takes two years to achieve. (Age 19-22)
3rd level - Takes three years to achieve. (Age 22-25)
4th level - Takes four years to achieve. (Age 26-29)
5th level - Takes five years to achieve. (Age 31-34)
6th level - Takes six years to achieve. (Age 37-40)
7th level - Takes seven years to achieve. (Age 44-47)
8th level - Takes eight years to achieve. (Age 52-55)
9th level - Takes nine years to achieve. (Age 61-64)
etc....

So that puts the vast majority of people around 3-6th level in the Palladium World. It makes a lot of logical sense to me as well. I assume that their is a kind of bell curve of population/level of xp.

Not that people can't achieve better expertise fast or slower (over or under achievers). It is just a good rule of thumb.

[Library Ogre]

I like to use the following chart to determine the average time it take to achieve a level and the average level of a person in the Palladium World. (Primarily based off of a Human lifespan of 60 years).

1st level - Finishing up Apprenticeship or Class training (normally happens around age 17-21)
2nd level - Takes two years to achieve. (Age 19-22)
3rd level - Takes three years to achieve. (Age 22-25)
4th level - Takes four years to achieve. (Age 26-29)
5th level - Takes five years to achieve. (Age 31-34)
6th level - Takes six years to achieve. (Age 37-40)
7th level - Takes seven years to achieve. (Age 44-47)
8th level - Takes eight years to achieve. (Age 52-55)
9th level - Takes nine years to achieve. (Age 61-64)
etc....

So that puts the vast majority of people around 3-6th level in the Palladium World. It makes a lot of logical sense to me as well. I assume that their is a kind of bell curve of population/level of xp.

Not that people can't achieve better expertise fast or slower (over or under achievers). It is just a good rule of thumb.

I rather like this; fits well with Palladium's Xp charts as a good rule of thumb. How do you apply it to, say, elves? Do they follow the same pattern, just starting at 40 instead of at 20?

[everloss]

Everyone is level 1, unless they are noteworthy for some reason.

I go by the belief that Player-Characters and important NPCs are the exception, while most everyone else is the rule.