Palladium Health and Disease

[Library Ogre]

As pointed out, this was becoming a rather large digression on another thread.

No, the FOOD is +1 to save. It does not grant the eater a +1 to save.
"The food is +1 to save vs. spoiling magic and disease/decay."

When is the last time your lunch took a week off because it got botulism?

I am VERY leery of the idea that a psychic is going to simply stack the effects and penalties of having several diseases on themselves at once, let alone the idea that any but the most aultristicly sacrificial would take on six+ diseases at once.

Psi-healers have a high degree of empathy (by OCC description, not just by powers), and three of the seven alignments would be willing to exchange some discomfort for another's help, especially if they are being well paid. It does not require a psi-healer to acquire several diseases at once in order to treat 8 people in a day; each disease will affect them for 1d4 hours, which averages to 2.5 hours per person, giving them time for a 9th person or a four hour meditation session afterwards... which is twice is equal to 8 hours of sleep.

35,000gp is not terribly much by Palladium Fantasy standards and, again, you assume someone is selling it, rather than teaching it to someone as part of an extended apprenticeship (i.e. a wizard who cares for the people of a town passing it on to others who need it).

It is a vast amount of money if your not an adventurer out there getting tons of money in adventures.

Psi-healers can sell sell psychic surgery for 1000gp a session. Priests and healers can charge upwards of 600gp per healing touch. A 1st level Wizard, fresh from apprenticeship, can easily know such spells as Cure Minor Disorder, Negate Poison/Toxin (the ultimate hangover cure!), See Aura (an easy diagnosis tool to detect illnesses), and, if you allow dipping into Rifts sources, the spell Light Healing (which is more effective over any period of time than psychic or priestly healing touches, as it can be cast multiple times per melee). 35,000gp can quickly be obtained by anyone with a yen to be a healer-wizard.

And since the guilds (which are the source of apprenticships in the palladium world) are explicitly said to tightly regulate the distribution of spells, then yes I think it IS unlikely that we should assume that it means "all spells except this one level 6 spell are regulated'

I don't have the final copy of MoM handy, so maybe this got slipped in, but I do not think it is supported by the book. Guilds are largely confined to larger cities, and only especially large guilds have dedicated training facilities. I don't know of anything that implies that most wizards belong to a guild (pages 100 and 183 of the PFRPG certainly don't), or that the guilds strictly control who non-members might train, especially outside their jurisdiction.

And, of course, if you really want the spell, you can get it, on average, with a single successful casting of enchanted cauldron (2d6 spells averages to 7 spells, which makes it likely you'll get at least 1 6th level spell). There's a chance of mental illness from that, of course, but, well, you then have a magical cure for illness, don't you?

I would point out that Enchanted Cauldron is "among the most disgusting and dangerous methods of gaining spell knowledge" and "many wizards (over 70%) never use it"
If you DO use it you have a 87% chance of getting an insanity, which is permeant.
The only cure for insanity in Palladium is the Super Psionic power of Cure Insanity, which is either temporary, or requires 2d6 Base ISP

This is incorrect. The insanity caused by the Enchanted Cauldron is due to trauma, not by magic, making it the purview of the Cure Illness spell. Page 29 says that there are many magical cures for insanity available, and most mental illnesses neatly fall within what is allowed to Cure Illness.

That is the most absurd stance I have ever heard. Temporary imperviousness to something does not mean retroactive curing of it. Just like walking into a AMC doesn't instantly break all curses, it just puts them on 'pause'.

You can see it as absurd if you like; I probably wouldn't go that way, either. But it's a valid reading of the spell.

There is nothing in the book to suggest that you can halve the disease a second time.
NOR is there the slightest hint in the books that suggest that psi-healers are going to have some selfless desire to run around and saddle themselves with multiple illnesses for people.

Nor is there anything to suggest that you can't. Healing Touch doesn't specifically allow you multiple attempts; should it be interpreted as to be a single-use only psionic power?

And my point is that the powers have done practically nothing to make disease go down, AND they have all the threats of our middle ages AND all the threats of their world.
The idea that this would mean that they have LESS death is... counter intuitive.

Your "point" hinges on narrow interpretations of poorly written powers onto which you've placed your own restrictions. You've decided that guilds control magic to such an extent that no one can learn magic outside of their boundaries, but that's not evident from the text, and specifically contradicted by the book listing other sources of spells. You've decided that you can't attack a disease more than once, but there's nothing to indicate that's the case. You've decided that people with psychic powers won't want to use them to help others, despite the fact that the Psi-Healer OCC is specifically noted as being quite lucrative and well-respected for doing just that. You've decided that Cure Illness is useless, because it is written poorly, but Palladium is NOTORIOUS for writing imprecisely. You either have to decide that the words on the page were intended to be meaningless, and that a spell called "Cure Illness" actually does nothing, or that they were written the Palladium's trademark imprecision. If the spell is intended to be useless, that is one thing, but I do not think that is the correct interpretation.

The dangers of the Palladium World are exotic, but not particularly more dangerous than those of our world, evidenced by the fact that not only do people live there, but in many cases thrive there. Even the troglodytes, who have little magic and no psionics, do well in the narrow niche they carve out for themselves, surviving despite the depredations of kobolds and other beasts. An orc sword will kill you as dead as the sword of a human brigand... but your priest may be able to touch your skin for an instant and stop you from dying, or even, possibly, bring you back after you die. A dragon may kill you, but he's far easier to bribe than the bear that would do the same thing... and he may be willing to do favors if you pay him enough. The prayers your priest says over the congregation are efficacious at staving off disease, their blessing can prevent the water from killing you, and they may know the future or access great magics with relative commonality (a 4th level priest has a 42% chance of casting any spell his deity knows, provided the GM decides its warranted). And there's a not bad chance that 25%-30% of your town has preternatural powers, some of which will let them reduce the effects of injury, disease, poison, and a great number of other things.

If it's counter-intuitive, it's because you haven't thought through the implication of even a 5% drop in deaths when diseases might kill 75 million to 200 million people on a continent.

[The Beast]

It would be helpful if there was a link to the other thread. I'm kind of curious about the food thing at the top.

[Library Ogre]

It would be helpful if there was a link to the other thread. I'm kind of curious about the food thing at the top.

Here's Eli's post that had me split off.

[eliakon]

As pointed out, this was becoming a rather large digression on another thread.

No, the FOOD is +1 to save. It does not grant the eater a +1 to save.
"The food is +1 to save vs. spoiling magic and disease/decay."

When is the last time your lunch took a week off because it got botulism?

That doesn't matter.
It clearly says "The food is +1 to save"
Not "the food grants a +1 to save"
This is because there are spells that spoil food or cause decay.
This is also why the food stays fresh longer (otherwise by this logic it causes people to stay fresh longer...)

I am VERY leery of the idea that a psychic is going to simply stack the effects and penalties of having several diseases on themselves at once, let alone the idea that any but the most aultristicly sacrificial would take on six+ diseases at once.

Psi-healers have a high degree of empathy (by OCC description, not just by powers), and three of the seven alignments would be willing to exchange some discomfort for another's help, especially if they are being well paid. It does not require a psi-healer to acquire several diseases at once in order to treat 8 people in a day; each disease will affect them for 1d4 hours, which averages to 2.5 hours per person, giving them time for a 9th person or a four hour meditation session afterwards... which is twice is equal to 8 hours of sleep.

"high degree of empathy" is not the same as "masochistic and willing to suffer horrible discomfort for someone"

35,000gp is not terribly much by Palladium Fantasy standards and, again, you assume someone is selling it, rather than teaching it to someone as part of an extended apprenticeship (i.e. a wizard who cares for the people of a town passing it on to others who need it).

It is a vast amount of money if your not an adventurer out there getting tons of money in adventures.

Psi-healers can sell sell psychic surgery for 1000gp a session. Priests and healers can charge upwards of 600gp per healing touch. A 1st level Wizard, fresh from apprenticeship, can easily know such spells as Cure Minor Disorder, Negate Poison/Toxin (the ultimate hangover cure!), See Aura (an easy diagnosis tool to detect illnesses), and, if you allow dipping into Rifts sources, the spell Light Healing (which is more effective over any period of time than psychic or priestly healing touches, as it can be cast multiple times per melee). 35,000gp can quickly be obtained by anyone with a yen to be a healer-wizard.

Only in the adventurer economy...
because the prices work for adventurers but not for anyone else.
Remember that Psychic Surgery? assuming a 100% mark up your farmer is going to have to sell 2500lbs of Oats to pay for that.
Sure your adventurer can find that in a chest after defeating 2d6 orcs. But for a farmer? That might easily be a year or threes harvest...

And since the guilds (which are the source of apprenticships in the palladium world) are explicitly said to tightly regulate the distribution of spells, then yes I think it IS unlikely that we should assume that it means "all spells except this one level 6 spell are regulated'

I don't have the final copy of MoM handy, so maybe this got slipped in, but I do not think it is supported by the book. Guilds are largely confined to larger cities, and only especially large guilds have dedicated training facilities. I don't know of anything that implies that most wizards belong to a guild (pages 100 and 183 of the PFRPG certainly don't), or that the guilds strictly control who non-members might train, especially outside their jurisdiction.

Well if you talking apprentices in a guild world...
But hey, I am willing to in my games assume that there are sources of spells that undercut the books listed ones so its not an unreasonable house rule.
But spells would not sell at that rate if they were available elsewhere for cheaper.

And, of course, if you really want the spell, you can get it, on average, with a single successful casting of enchanted cauldron (2d6 spells averages to 7 spells, which makes it likely you'll get at least 1 6th level spell). There's a chance of mental illness from that, of course, but, well, you then have a magical cure for illness, don't you?

I would point out that Enchanted Cauldron is "among the most disgusting and dangerous methods of gaining spell knowledge" and "many wizards (over 70%) never use it"
If you DO use it you have a 87% chance of getting an insanity, which is permeant.
The only cure for insanity in Palladium is the Super Psionic power of Cure Insanity, which is either temporary, or requires 2d6 Base ISP

This is incorrect. The insanity caused by the Enchanted Cauldron is due to trauma, not by magic, making it the purview of the Cure Illness spell. Page 29 says that there are many magical cures for insanity available, and most mental illnesses neatly fall within what is allowed to Cure Illness.

Correction.
There are few canon ways to treat it (apparently with therapy and counseling and months of treatment you can roll on a table for a chance of curing some kinds)
And no, it is not something that Cure Illness can cure. it is not a "normal illness" mental =/= normal and there is nothing in the spell to suggest that it can cure mental illness or magical illness.
never mind the fact that it is not 'caused by trauma' it is simply caused.
And the fact that their are 'magical cures' for mental illness doesn't mean that they exist in canon. There is a magical ritual to create the Mummy Immortalis... and that doesn't exist in canon either so we can't say how common it is, or what its requirements are or anything else. Speculation about non-canon spells is, frankly, fruitless because it is, by its nature non-canon and thus purely a matter of individual table play style.

That is the most absurd stance I have ever heard. Temporary imperviousness to something does not mean retroactive curing of it. Just like walking into a AMC doesn't instantly break all curses, it just puts them on 'pause'.

You can see it as absurd if you like; I probably wouldn't go that way, either. But it's a valid reading of the spell.

Not really no.
"Twist into something that if you look at it in a bad enough light while squinting may pass muster on the yellow brick road" is not the same as 'valid'

There is nothing in the book to suggest that you can halve the disease a second time.
NOR is there the slightest hint in the books that suggest that psi-healers are going to have some selfless desire to run around and saddle themselves with multiple illnesses for people.

Nor is there anything to suggest that you can't. Healing Touch doesn't specifically allow you multiple attempts; should it be interpreted as to be a single-use only psionic power?

That is not the same, it is not even remotely the same.
If a power does not say that you can use it multiple times on the same problem then you can't
You can't cast 'impervious to fire' five times to halve fire damage five times...
even if it doesn't explicitly say you can't.

And my point is that the powers have done practically nothing to make disease go down, AND they have all the threats of our middle ages AND all the threats of their world.
The idea that this would mean that they have LESS death is... counter intuitive.

Your "point" hinges on narrow interpretations of poorly written powers onto which you've placed your own restrictions.

I don't think that "requiring things to be done by the book" is narrow

You've decided that guilds control magic to such an extent that no one can learn magic outside of their boundaries, but that's not evident from the text, and specifically contradicted by the book listing other sources of spells.

The other sources are Alchemists and cauldrons.
Quite literally by canon there really is the fantasy trope of the all powerful mages guild (whether that is good or not, or should be or not is a different story)

You've decided that you can't attack a disease more than once, but there's nothing to indicate that's the case.

There is nothing, in any part of the palladium canon, ever to suggest that people are allowed to use multiple halvings to xenos paradox away things.
None.
Ever
The idea that they just 'forgot to tell us that this one power can really be abused so that it really can be used to do this miraculous thing that would be amazing, but you have to think like a munchkin to do it but its really what we intended" is... lets just say not well supported.

You've decided that people with psychic powers won't want to use them to help others, despite the fact that the Psi-Healer OCC is specifically noted as being quite lucrative and well-respected for doing just that.

There is a difference between 'willing to help others' and "willing to suffer horribly, repeatedly possibly in overlapping manners for others"
I can be lucrative and well-respected using healing touch, and psychic diagnosis, and psychic-surgery, and psychic-purification and never once use Attack Disease in my lifetime.

You've decided that Cure Illness is useless, because it is written poorly, but Palladium is NOTORIOUS for writing imprecisely. You either have to decide that the words on the page were intended to be meaningless, and that a spell called "Cure Illness" actually does nothing, or that they were written the Palladium's trademark imprecision. If the spell is intended to be useless, that is one thing, but I do not think that is the correct interpretation.

The problem with making it the amazing panacea you want is that in every other source where the spell is written out, they clairify that the spell does not work on viruses and only works on bacteria.
That, to me, sort of indicates intent.
That doesn't make it 'useless' it just means it is not the "we have now rendered disease a thing of the past"

The dangers of the Palladium World are exotic, but not particularly more dangerous than those of our world, evidenced by the fact that not only do people live there, but in many cases thrive there.

This proves nothing though.
No really it doesn't
People thrived in our world too remember?
That doesn't mean that they didn't have huge death rates, and so does this
The people can live in palladium, they can thrive in palladium and still have high mortality rates. They are not mutually exclusive.

Even the troglodytes, who have little magic and no psionics, do well in the narrow niche they carve out for themselves, surviving despite the depredations of kobolds and other beasts. An orc sword will kill you as dead as the sword of a human brigand... but your priest may be able to touch your skin for an instant and stop you from dying, or even, possibly, bring you back after you die. A dragon may kill you, but he's far easier to bribe than the bear that would do the same thing... and he may be willing to do favors if you pay him enough. The prayers your priest says over the congregation are efficacious at staving off disease, their blessing can prevent the water from killing you, and they may know the future or access great magics with relative commonality (a 4th level priest has a 42% chance of casting any spell his deity knows, provided the GM decides its warranted). And there's a not bad chance that 25%-30% of your town has preternatural powers, some of which will let them reduce the effects of injury, disease, poison, and a great number of other things.

How many priests are going to be 4th level first off
Second off, unless your playing your game a lot differently than any game I have ever been in, most priests are not going to be praying for direct, personal divine intervention from their god on a regular basis. That is, usually, saved for special occasions (that is why you have regular prayers)
Now I guess that we can assume that the gods are willing to directly intervene and cast and power the thousands or hundreds of thousands or millions of cure disease spells that this would take...
but I am leery of that, especially in light of the descriptions of the limits of their power in Dragons and Gods.

If it's counter-intuitive, it's because you haven't thought through the implication of even a 5% drop in deaths when diseases might kill 75 million to 200 million people on a continent.

[/quote]
I have thought it through.
If you reduce things 5% in one area
But increase them 5, 10, 15 % in another area, then there will be no net drop in deaths.
THAT is why I said it is counter intuitive.
Because this is a token reduction in disease, in a world that has far more dangers and problems than our world.

[kiralon]

The foods +1 to save is mildly helpful when a druid rots your food. Its a nasty tactic in the wilderness.
The food is +1 to save vs spoiling magic and disease/
decay. Plus, the food will stay fresh for one extra day

[Veknironth]

Well, I can't help but feel somewhat responsible for this.

-Vek
"I'm not."

[Judman]

Only in the adventurer economy...
because the prices work for adventurers but not for anyone else.
Remember that Psychic Surgery? assuming a 100% mark up your farmer is going to have to sell 2500lbs of Oats to pay for that.
Sure your adventurer can find that in a chest after defeating 2d6 orcs. But for a farmer? That might easily be a year or threes harvest...

I know this is a really silly thing to make my first post about, and I've no intention of stepping into the discussion going on between you two (though it has been thought provoking), but I was curious where you got the cash value of oats in-game? I recall prices being listed somewhere for things like glass and timber (was it adventures on the High Seas?) but its been so long, I forget the others. Additionally, fwiw, 2500lbs of oats would be the take off one or two acres depending on the soil and weather events of the year, which while no small amount of work for the peasant farmer, would probably be much more economical than the cost of most surgeries for a lot of us today. That's just a fun trivial contribution on my part as crops are something of a nerd hobby of mine (I wanted to be a farmer until reality and math convinced me there are easier ways to be poor).

[Library Ogre]

When is the last time your lunch took a week off because it got botulism?

That doesn't matter.
It clearly says "The food is +1 to save"
Not "the food grants a +1 to save"
This is because there are spells that spoil food or cause decay.
This is also why the food stays fresh longer (otherwise by this logic it causes people to stay fresh longer...)

None of those spells allow a saving throw.

Psi-healers have a high degree of empathy (by OCC description, not just by powers), and three of the seven alignments would be willing to exchange some discomfort for another's help, especially if they are being well paid. It does not require a psi-healer to acquire several diseases at once in order to treat 8 people in a day; each disease will affect them for 1d4 hours, which averages to 2.5 hours per person, giving them time for a 9th person or a four hour meditation session afterwards... which is twice is equal to 8 hours of sleep.

"high degree of empathy" is not the same as "masochistic and willing to suffer horrible discomfort for someone"

Which is why there are no soldiers who are willing to get hurt to help people. Firefighters, likewise, will only work if they can be absolutely assured of their comfort and safety. And, of course,

7. Always help others.
7. Always help others.
5. Help those in need.
5. Not likely to help someone without some ulterior motive (even if it's
only to show-off).
7. Feels no compulsion to help without some sort of tangible reward.
8. May or may not help someone in need.

Want to guess where I copied those from? Because 6 out of 7 of them will help people, 3 of them just because they're in need.

Psi-healers can sell sell psychic surgery for 1000gp a session. Priests and healers can charge upwards of 600gp per healing touch. A 1st level Wizard, fresh from apprenticeship, can easily know such spells as Cure Minor Disorder, Negate Poison/Toxin (the ultimate hangover cure!), See Aura (an easy diagnosis tool to detect illnesses), and, if you allow dipping into Rifts sources, the spell Light Healing (which is more effective over any period of time than psychic or priestly healing touches, as it can be cast multiple times per melee). 35,000gp can quickly be obtained by anyone with a yen to be a healer-wizard.

Only in the adventurer economy...
because the prices work for adventurers but not for anyone else.
Remember that Psychic Surgery? assuming a 100% mark up your farmer is going to have to sell 2500lbs of Oats to pay for that.
Sure your adventurer can find that in a chest after defeating 2d6 orcs. But for a farmer? That might easily be a year or threes harvest...

Because the entire world is poor farmers. There's no one willing to pay those prices, only adventurers. Your view of this world is both weirdly selfish ("NO ONE WILL EVER SUFFER DISCOMFORT TO HELP PEOPLE!") and miserly ("NO ONE HAS ANY MONEY, EVER!")

Well if you talking apprentices in a guild world...
But hey, I am willing to in my games assume that there are sources of spells that undercut the books listed ones so its not an unreasonable house rule.
But spells would not sell at that rate if they were available elsewhere for cheaper.

I've already provided a citation for other sources of spells (page 183 of PFRPG). Rich benefactors... including churches, some of whom might be quite interested in a wizard with a healing vocation... demons and other supernatural beings (a 2nd or 4th level summoner can be a great friend to a wizard), previous mentors, spellbooks... all provide ways of getting spells other than shelling out 35,000gp, cash on the barrelhead, for a useful spell. You're now talking, ironically, fantasy, that you can't back up, because it is directly contradicted by the text. In fact, the 35,000gp price you are so fond of quoting isn't even necessarily the price from a guild. It's a price to buy it from an alchemist; guild members may pay far less.

Correction.
There are few canon ways to treat it (apparently with therapy and counseling and months of treatment you can roll on a table for a chance of curing some kinds)
And no, it is not something that Cure Illness can cure. it is not a "normal illness" mental =/= normal and there is nothing in the spell to suggest that it can cure mental illness or magical illness.

This is your interpretation, but doesn't line up with the facts. The spell makes no claim that mental illness is outside its purview... those it does, with the exception of the common cold, are things involving extreme physical trauma (broken bones, wounds, damage to internal organs). It is capable of curing ordinary disease and illness, but does not define those. Mental Illness, however, is frequently CALLED illness. The text on page 29 says that there are a variety of cures that can instantly eliminate mental and emotional illness, but doesn't exclude a spell specifically called Cure Illness. Your assertion that mental illness is not normal illness is the only thing you have to stand on... and, well, mental illness seems pretty normal to Palladium.

never mind the fact that it is not 'caused by trauma' it is simply caused.

"However, as one might expect, the experience is quite harrowing, and often results in insanity." Page 106. Description of the spell. Caused by trauma.

And the fact that their are 'magical cures' for mental illness doesn't mean that they exist in canon. There is a magical ritual to create the Mummy Immortalis... and that doesn't exist in canon either so we can't say how common it is, or what its requirements are or anything else. Speculation about non-canon spells is, frankly, fruitless because it is, by its nature non-canon and thus purely a matter of individual table play style.

Nor does it mean it does not exist in canon, and you have no evidence save your prejudice against mental illness to suggest otherwise.

Not really no.
"Twist into something that if you look at it in a bad enough light while squinting may pass muster on the yellow brick road" is not the same as 'valid'

Rangar is poisoned. Your mage does not know Negate Poison/Toxin, but he does know Impervious to Poison/Toxin. He casts it on Ragnar. Ragnar is saved further damage from the poison/toxin, yes? That's more or less the point of the spell?

Nor is there anything to suggest that you can't. Healing Touch doesn't specifically allow you multiple attempts; should it be interpreted as to be a single-use only psionic power?

That is not the same, it is not even remotely the same.
If a power does not say that you can use it multiple times on the same problem then you can't
You can't cast 'impervious to fire' five times to halve fire damage five times...
even if it doesn't explicitly say you can't.

So, you can only use healing touch once on a single wound. If you are hit for 15 points of damage, and healing touch cures 2d4, you have to let the rest heal naturally. Got it.

Frankly, your argument is flawed, because impervious to fire does not change the fire... it changes you to reduce a single instance of the fire. Attack Disease damages the disease... it's in the name. It reduces the effects of said disease by half, per use. There's no indication, save your own imagination, that you can't attack a disease a second time if the first time fails to stop it. Or should we also declare that you can't attack a troll a second time, if your first attack fails to stop it?

The problem with making it the amazing panacea you want is that in every other source where the spell is written out, they clairify that the spell does not work on viruses and only works on bacteria.
That, to me, sort of indicates intent.
That doesn't make it 'useless' it just means it is not the "we have now rendered disease a thing of the past"

They clarify it doesn't work on viruses while citing a virally caused disease as something it can cure. It indicates nothing save Palladium's customary imprecision.

How many priests are going to be 4th level first off

An interesting question which I asked in another thread, in fact.

Second off, unless your playing your game a lot differently than any game I have ever been in, most priests are not going to be praying for direct, personal divine intervention from their god on a regular basis. That is, usually, saved for special occasions (that is why you have regular prayers)

A potential plague isn't considered a special occasion?

You're free to play the game as you wish, of course, but you've yet to actually cite anything to support your position, while heartily ignoring every bit of counter-evidence I've provided. I'm not saying the world is a utopia, but you seem to be determined for it to wallow in **** and blood, with no one willing to do anything to help others, and magic being ineffectual at doing anything other than killing people.

[Library Ogre]

Gods, I hate dealing with the tags when fisking.

[The Beast]

When is the last time your lunch took a week off because it got botulism?

That doesn't matter.
It clearly says "The food is +1 to save"
Not "the food grants a +1 to save"
This is because there are spells that spoil food or cause decay.
This is also why the food stays fresh longer (otherwise by this logic it causes people to stay fresh longer...)

None of those spells allow a saving throw.

Uh, he's talking about the priest's Blessing of Food power, not a spell.

[eliakon]

Only in the adventurer economy...
because the prices work for adventurers but not for anyone else.
Remember that Psychic Surgery? assuming a 100% mark up your farmer is going to have to sell 2500lbs of Oats to pay for that.
Sure your adventurer can find that in a chest after defeating 2d6 orcs. But for a farmer? That might easily be a year or threes harvest...

I know this is a really silly thing to make my first post about, and I've no intention of stepping into the discussion going on between you two (though it has been thought provoking), but I was curious where you got the cash value of oats in-game? I recall prices being listed somewhere for things like glass and timber (was it adventures on the High Seas?) but its been so long, I forget the others. Additionally, fwiw, 2500lbs of oats would be the take off one or two acres depending on the soil and weather events of the year, which while no small amount of work for the peasant farmer, would probably be much more economical than the cost of most surgeries for a lot of us today. That's just a fun trivial contribution on my part as crops are something of a nerd hobby of mine (I wanted to be a farmer until reality and math convinced me there are easier ways to be poor).

prices for goods are on page 274 of the PF2 main book
And as for the weight...
I don't have the exact numbers but I would be interested in knowing the yields of crops...
...that are not from modern, industrialized farms.
Palladium does not have engineered crops, with pesticides, fertilizers, mechanical aids, cheap irrigation, bountiful labor, and vast farms (so you can utilize economies of scale)

[eliakon]

When is the last time your lunch took a week off because it got botulism?

That doesn't matter.
It clearly says "The food is +1 to save"
Not "the food grants a +1 to save"
This is because there are spells that spoil food or cause decay.
This is also why the food stays fresh longer (otherwise by this logic it causes people to stay fresh longer...)

None of those spells allow a saving throw.

Uh, he's talking about the priest's Blessing of Food power, not a spell.

Correct.
The Blessing makes the food resistant to decay, it makes the food resistant to diseases (for what that is worth), it makes the food last longer.
Nothing about it says that it transfers any of these properties from the food to any second party. Thus eating the food does not make you resist disease, resist decay, or stay fresh longer.

[Library Ogre]

When is the last time your lunch took a week off because it got botulism?

That doesn't matter.
It clearly says "The food is +1 to save"
Not "the food grants a +1 to save"
This is because there are spells that spoil food or cause decay.
This is also why the food stays fresh longer (otherwise by this logic it causes people to stay fresh longer...)

None of those spells allow a saving throw.

Uh, he's talking about the priest's Blessing of Food power, not a spell.

And he is claiming that it makes the food +1 to resist spoiling magic. The spoiling magic does not have a save, so a +1 to save against spoiling magic is meaningless.

[The Beast]

When is the last time your lunch took a week off because it got botulism?

That doesn't matter.
It clearly says "The food is +1 to save"
Not "the food grants a +1 to save"
This is because there are spells that spoil food or cause decay.
This is also why the food stays fresh longer (otherwise by this logic it causes people to stay fresh longer...)

None of those spells allow a saving throw.

Uh, he's talking about the priest's Blessing of Food power, not a spell.

And he is claiming that it makes the food +1 to resist spoiling magic. The spoiling magic does not have a save, so a +1 to save against spoiling magic is meaningless.

He's not claiming that. He's pointing out what the book says on page 65 of the PFRPG. Now if you have some sort of issue with what the book says, you're the only person in this discussion in a position to knock on Kevin's door and ask him for a clarification on the subject.

[eliakon]

(topics broken up into subtopics in interest of length)

Psi-healers have a high degree of empathy (by OCC description, not just by powers), and three of the seven alignments would be willing to exchange some discomfort for another's help, especially if they are being well paid. It does not require a psi-healer to acquire several diseases at once in order to treat 8 people in a day; each disease will affect them for 1d4 hours, which averages to 2.5 hours per person, giving them time for a 9th person or a four hour meditation session afterwards... which is twice is equal to 8 hours of sleep.

"high degree of empathy" is not the same as "masochistic and willing to suffer horrible discomfort for someone"

Which is why there are no soldiers who are willing to get hurt to help people. Firefighters, likewise, will only work if they can be absolutely assured of their comfort and safety. And, of course,

7. Always help others.
7. Always help others.
5. Help those in need.
5. Not likely to help someone without some ulterior motive (even if it's
only to show-off).
7. Feels no compulsion to help without some sort of tangible reward.
8. May or may not help someone in need.

Want to guess where I copied those from? Because 6 out of 7 of them will help people, 3 of them just because they're in need.

And again
"help others" =/= "willing to take on any level of suffering for others"
They may or may not be willing to suffer the effects of a disease for 1d4 hours six times a day. Or they may not.
That is not a stance that can be inferred by the class, by alignment, or anyother thing that I am aware of in the published canon.

If it can not be supported by anything, then it is not really a valid assumption to make. After all, if an assumption requires that we posit that all, most, or even a significant percentage of a class of people will behave in a specific uniquely altruistic fashion which deviates from normal base line behaviors it behooves the one making the assumption to be able to point to a reason for such other than "well, they would because I think they would"

[eliakon]

(posts broken up to sub topics in interests of length)

Correction.
There are few canon ways to treat it (apparently with therapy and counseling and months of treatment you can roll on a table for a chance of curing some kinds)
And no, it is not something that Cure Illness can cure. it is not a "normal illness" mental =/= normal and there is nothing in the spell to suggest that it can cure mental illness or magical illness.

This is your interpretation, but doesn't line up with the facts. The spell makes no claim that mental illness is outside its purview... those it does, with the exception of the common cold, are things involving extreme physical trauma (broken bones, wounds, damage to internal organs). It is capable of curing ordinary disease and illness, but does not define those. Mental Illness, however, is frequently CALLED illness. The text on page 29 says that there are a variety of cures that can instantly eliminate mental and emotional illness, but doesn't exclude a spell specifically called Cure Illness. Your assertion that mental illness is not normal illness is the only thing you have to stand on... and, well, mental illness seems pretty normal to Palladium.

Mental Illness is not a sickness
It is not a 'disease' that you just 'get over'
And frankly trying to portray it as such is demeaning and stigmatizing to those with actual mental illnesses.
A phobia is not a cold.
And trying to argue that something that curese the flu really also cures schitzophrenia because "hey it doesn't say it doesn't" is the worst form of sloppy logic.
You don't need specific text to rule things out. You need text to rule things in. One does not assume that spells can do anything that they don't say they can't...

never mind the fact that it is not 'caused by trauma' it is simply caused.

"However, as one might expect, the experience is quite harrowing, and often results in insanity." Page 106. Description of the spell. Caused by trauma.

Regardless of the source... there is no special status to being a trauma.
The insanity rules do not make trauma any easier to cure. The insanity, once caused, must be cured the correct way.

And the fact that their are 'magical cures' for mental illness doesn't mean that they exist in canon. There is a magical ritual to create the Mummy Immortalis... and that doesn't exist in canon either so we can't say how common it is, or what its requirements are or anything else. Speculation about non-canon spells is, frankly, fruitless because it is, by its nature non-canon and thus purely a matter of individual table play style.

Nor does it mean it does not exist in canon, and you have no evidence save your prejudice against mental illness to suggest otherwise.

I find your insinuation here MOST INSULTING
I would thank you to take it back and apologize.
I think we should be able to have a reasonable discussion with out you slandering me by implying malice to me or prescribing a motive to my statements or inferring that anyone that disagrees with your view is doing so because of bias.

The reason that I said my piece is that the canon is pretty clear.
There are hundreds if not thousands of magical procedures that are 'out there' that are not described in canon. That does not mean that we simply have to shoe horn all magical effects into what spells we have.
There is no canon way to make a Mummy Immortalus, that does not mean we simply say "well then I guess its just animate dead"
Similarly there is no canon discussion of any magic that cures mental illness. That means that...there is no canon examples of said magic and that they therefore do not exist in canon at this time.
When and if such magic is ever published then it will exist in the canon. Until then it doesn't
That is, after all, what the word "canon" means.

[eliakon]

(replies broken up for purposes of length)

Not really no.
"Twist into something that if you look at it in a bad enough light while squinting may pass muster on the yellow brick road" is not the same as 'valid'

Rangar is poisoned. Your mage does not know Negate Poison/Toxin, but he does know Impervious to Poison/Toxin. He casts it on Ragnar. Ragnar is saved further damage from the poison/toxin, yes? That's more or less the point of the spell?

No not really.
The point of the spell is that you can cast it when you think that you may be exposed to a poison to make yourself immune to being poisoned in the first place. Thus if the monster breathes poison gas, or if you want to poison the soup at the dinner or what ever.

If you cast the spell on Rangar after he is poisoned you would buy time since while he is under the effects of the spell the effect of the poison would be 'put on hold'.
Thus you might be able to maintain your Impervious to Poison/Toxin spell long enough to get the antidote or an actual cure.

The spell is not intended to be better version of the Negate Poison/Toxin spell.

[eliakon]

Nor is there anything to suggest that you can't. Healing Touch doesn't specifically allow you multiple attempts; should it be interpreted as to be a single-use only psionic power?

That is not the same, it is not even remotely the same.
If a power does not say that you can use it multiple times on the same problem then you can't
You can't cast 'impervious to fire' five times to halve fire damage five times...
even if it doesn't explicitly say you can't.

So, you can only use healing touch once on a single wound. If you are hit for 15 points of damage, and healing touch cures 2d4, you have to let the rest heal naturally. Got it.

Frankly, your argument is flawed, because impervious to fire does not change the fire... it changes you to reduce a single instance of the fire. Attack Disease damages the disease... it's in the name. It reduces the effects of said disease by half, per use. There's no indication, save your own imagination, that you can't attack a disease a second time if the first time fails to stop it. Or should we also declare that you can't attack a troll a second time, if your first attack fails to stop it?

There is no "save in my own imagination"
The power is pretty clear.
It lets the person who is healed take the "suffer half damage and effect" that is so beloved of palladium.
There is absolutely no example, anywhere in canon what so ever where it is ever implied that people can go around playing Xeno and halve things to death.
None.
Ever.
The entire system is written to avoid that sort of shenanigans. The idea that some how this one ability was intentionally designed to be used to play Xeno with while nothing else, in the entire system at all, ever, was designed that way is... unlikely.
The most likely answer here is the simplest one. Namely that the power is designed to allow you to halve the effect of a disease on a person. And that attempts to make it more than that are simply trying to do just that...attempts to make it more than it is.

As for the argument that this is just "an attack" and thus should be treated like swinging a sword at a troll...
that is a good example of a strawman right there.
The name may be "attack disease" but it is not an "attack" in the Palladium definition of that term, and thus trying to point to melee attacks and then claim that it should follow the same rule is absurd.
It is a basic "you will only suffer half" defense with a special "the caster takes a penalty to prevent spamming" penalty. No more no less.

[Library Ogre]

(topics broken up into subtopics in interest of length)

7. Always help others.
7. Always help others.
5. Help those in need.
5. Not likely to help someone without some ulterior motive (even if it's
only to show-off).
7. Feels no compulsion to help without some sort of tangible reward.
8. May or may not help someone in need.

Want to guess where I copied those from? Because 6 out of 7 of them will help people, 3 of them just because they're in need.

And again
"help others" =/= "willing to take on any level of suffering for others"
They may or may not be willing to suffer the effects of a disease for 1d4 hours six times a day. Or they may not.
That is not a stance that can be inferred by the class, by alignment, or anyother thing that I am aware of in the published canon.

If it can not be supported by anything, then it is not really a valid assumption to make. After all, if an assumption requires that we posit that all, most, or even a significant percentage of a class of people will behave in a specific uniquely altruistic fashion which deviates from normal base line behaviors it behooves the one making the assumption to be able to point to a reason for such other than "well, they would because I think they would"

Which part of "always" means "If it is convenient and comfortable"? Seriously, you're now arguing that always means "If I want to."

[Library Ogre]

Mental Illness is not a sickness
It is not a 'disease' that you just 'get over'
And frankly trying to portray it as such is demeaning and stigmatizing to those with actual mental illnesses.
A phobia is not a cold.
And trying to argue that something that curese the flu really also cures schitzophrenia because "hey it doesn't say it doesn't" is the worst form of sloppy logic.
You don't need specific text to rule things out. You need text to rule things in. One does not assume that spells can do anything that they don't say they can't...

To Palladium, in the Palladium World, they are. Three months of therapy with a Mind Mage and you have a 31% chance of being completely free of Schizophrenia, Bipolar disorder, or anything else you may have. At the outside, you need 16 months of therapy to get that 31% chance of being completely free of them. So, treating mental illness as an illness that can be cured with magic that cures illnesses not caused by magic or physical trauma is right in line with the books.

never mind the fact that it is not 'caused by trauma' it is simply caused.

"However, as one might expect, the experience is quite harrowing, and often results in insanity." Page 106. Description of the spell. Caused by trauma.

Regardless of the source... there is no special status to being a trauma.
The insanity rules do not make trauma any easier to cure. The insanity, once caused, must be cured the correct way.

By a spell that cures illness. That it is caused by trauma, not by magic, is relevant because Cure Illness will not function on illnesses caused by magic.

And the fact that their are 'magical cures' for mental illness doesn't mean that they exist in canon. There is a magical ritual to create the Mummy Immortalis... and that doesn't exist in canon either so we can't say how common it is, or what its requirements are or anything else. Speculation about non-canon spells is, frankly, fruitless because it is, by its nature non-canon and thus purely a matter of individual table play style.

Nor does it mean it does not exist in canon, and you have no evidence save your prejudice against mental illness to suggest otherwise.

I find your insinuation here MOST INSULTING
I would thank you to take it back and apologize.
I think we should be able to have a reasonable discussion with out you slandering me by implying malice to me or prescribing a motive to my statements or inferring that anyone that disagrees with your view is doing so because of bias.

You are wanting to treat mental illness as being special... not subject to the normal rules of treating illness in Palladium. It is a bias against mental illness.

When and if such magic is ever published then it will exist in the canon. Until then it doesn't
That is, after all, what the word "canon" means.

It does, if you don't needlessly limit the spell.

[eliakon]

(topics broken up into subtopics in interest of length)

7. Always help others.
7. Always help others.
5. Help those in need.
5. Not likely to help someone without some ulterior motive (even if it's
only to show-off).
7. Feels no compulsion to help without some sort of tangible reward.
8. May or may not help someone in need.

Want to guess where I copied those from? Because 6 out of 7 of them will help people, 3 of them just because they're in need.

And again
"help others" =/= "willing to take on any level of suffering for others"
They may or may not be willing to suffer the effects of a disease for 1d4 hours six times a day. Or they may not.
That is not a stance that can be inferred by the class, by alignment, or anyother thing that I am aware of in the published canon.

If it can not be supported by anything, then it is not really a valid assumption to make. After all, if an assumption requires that we posit that all, most, or even a significant percentage of a class of people will behave in a specific uniquely altruistic fashion which deviates from normal base line behaviors it behooves the one making the assumption to be able to point to a reason for such other than "well, they would because I think they would"

Which part of "always" means "If it is convenient and comfortable"? Seriously, you're now arguing that always means "If I want to."

The part that is where we don't have the "good is stupid"
Otherwise we run into the issue that they must always, go and free all slave and prevent all evil and injustice. After all, those are helping others...
And if you are claiming that you must do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING possible to help someone if you are good. Then either there are no good people in the world, or there can be no form of suffering at all because the good people would be required to stop it.
Its silly.
Now you can play absolutism and make good characters automatons with no free will in your games I guess...
...but I am going to assume that "always help people" has some limits because there are things that could have been helped with that were not done.

[eliakon]

Mental Illness is not a sickness
It is not a 'disease' that you just 'get over'
And frankly trying to portray it as such is demeaning and stigmatizing to those with actual mental illnesses.
A phobia is not a cold.
And trying to argue that something that curese the flu really also cures schitzophrenia because "hey it doesn't say it doesn't" is the worst form of sloppy logic.
You don't need specific text to rule things out. You need text to rule things in. One does not assume that spells can do anything that they don't say they can't...

To Palladium, in the Palladium World, they are. Three months of therapy with a Mind Mage and you have a 31% chance of being completely free of Schizophrenia, Bipolar disorder, or anything else you may have. At the outside, you need 16 months of therapy to get that 31% chance of being completely free of them. So, treating mental illness as an illness that can be cured with magic that cures illnesses not caused by magic or physical trauma is right in line with the books.

Again incorrect.
There is nothing in the two statements that are even remotely equivalent.
They have nothing to do with each other.
There is no connection with "three months of therapy" and "this is an illness like flu or measles"
This is like saying that because Ice cream is cold, that horses are mammals.
It is, quite literally a nonsequitor.

never mind the fact that it is not 'caused by trauma' it is simply caused.

"However, as one might expect, the experience is quite harrowing, and often results in insanity." Page 106. Description of the spell. Caused by trauma.

Regardless of the source... there is no special status to being a trauma.
The insanity rules do not make trauma any easier to cure. The insanity, once caused, must be cured the correct way.

By a spell that cures illness. That it is caused by trauma, not by magic, is relevant because Cure Illness will not function on illnesses caused by magic.

It doesn't say it works on trauma either.
Which it doesn't have to because trauma isn't a pathogen.

And the fact that their are 'magical cures' for mental illness doesn't mean that they exist in canon. There is a magical ritual to create the Mummy Immortalis... and that doesn't exist in canon either so we can't say how common it is, or what its requirements are or anything else. Speculation about non-canon spells is, frankly, fruitless because it is, by its nature non-canon and thus purely a matter of individual table play style.

Nor does it mean it does not exist in canon, and you have no evidence save your prejudice against mental illness to suggest otherwise.

I find your insinuation here MOST INSULTING
I would thank you to take it back and apologize.
I think we should be able to have a reasonable discussion with out you slandering me by implying malice to me or prescribing a motive to my statements or inferring that anyone that disagrees with your view is doing so because of bias.

You are wanting to treat mental illness as being special... not subject to the normal rules of treating illness in Palladium. It is a bias against mental illness.

Because. It. Is. Not. An. Illness.
Period.
Dot.
End Of. Story.
But if you need it spelled out for you, then you can go look at page 29 of the PF2 book.
Unless I am mistaken you can not cure the flu with three months of therapy.
You can not cure measles with six weeks of therapy.
Mental Illness is not "just another sickness so buck up"
It is a complex issue that is a lot more complicated than "they just have a simple sickness, tell them to get over it"
This is why I am so offended by people claiming that I am "biased against mental illness" simply because I expect it to be treated as being an actual issue and not simply swept under the rug as being something that should be treated as a normal disease like the flu.
That sort of thinking is why we have the horrific suicide rate of veterans in the military...because the command says that Mental Illness isn't really a problem and they should just "buck up"
I don't need to deal with that sort of attitude here in the forums as well.

When and if such magic is ever published then it will exist in the canon. Until then it doesn't
That is, after all, what the word "canon" means.

It does, if you don't needlessly limit the spell.

You are missing the point.
There if there is no canon spell that does effect X.
Then effect X while it may be possible in canon has no canon way of being performed.
It is not a matter of "needlessly limiting the spell'
It is simply that every spell in not an omnipotent miracle that can do anything.
Cure Disease does what it says on the tin. It curse diseases. it does not cure congenital heart defects, even though that might be a 'heart disease'. It does not cure a phobia even though that is a "mental illness" it does not cure Human Sickle Cell Anemia, even though that was considered a disease.
It. Just. Cures. Disease.
No more.

[Library Ogre]

You are missing the point.
There if there is no canon spell that does effect X.
Then effect X while it may be possible in canon has no canon way of being performed.
It is not a matter of "needlessly limiting the spell'
It is simply that every spell in not an omnipotent miracle that can do anything.
Cure Disease does what it says on the tin. It curse diseases. it does not cure congenital heart defects, even though that might be a 'heart disease'. It does not cure a phobia even though that is a "mental illness" it does not cure Human Sickle Cell Anemia, even though that was considered a disease.
It. Just. Cures. Disease.
No more.

I am not missing the point. You are.

There is no "Cure Disease" spell. There "Cure Illness." Which cures. illness. Mental illness is an illness which Palladium World medicine considers quite curable... and quite causable. You can become manic depressive with a bad drug trip in Palladium... heck, you might wind up with two random mental illnesses because of that drug trip. Hallucinate you were eaten by a dragon? Congratulations, you are now unable to tell the truth, when you next encounter a dragon, there's a chance you will be afraid of ... rolls... dogs. You can become a schizophrenic because you were almost killed, or because you caused the death of several people.

And then, with three months of treatment by a professional, you might become well again. This is not how mental illness works. And, so, a spell which specifically cure illnesses that don't result from massive physical trauma would work on this.

It's clear that we're not going to agree on this. Your view of "good" is "if it doesn't inconvenience me." Your view of "mental illness" doesn't coincide with what the game rules governing it are. And you're wanting to place roadblocks on powers just to jive your idea that disease is rampant and incurable in Palladium. That's fine. But it's not in the book.

[kiralon]

I admit I wouldn't allow cure illness to fix mental illness. The difficulty that the mind specialist has to get rid of it makes me think that cure illness wouldn't work on it at all, not to mention the feeling that I get from blurb makes me think the author doesn't either, but I don't know him and could be totally wrong. However I would also allow cure illness to work on magical diseases because palladium needs a cure disease spell, and the current one is stupid because of its arbitrary things it doesn't work on.
I'd up the cost to 30ppe though

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. First, I'll start by saying, most of the answers here will come down to how someone interprets the rules because a lot of it is vague, which means how someone views the Palladium World will be largely the result of house rules. Setting that aside, I'll address Cure Illness in two parts.

1. By the way the spell is written in PF2, I'd say that while mental illness is not intended to be included, since Palladium specifically uses the term "mental and emotional illness" for Insanity, especially when discussing this in relation to "Cures by Magic," I'd say Mark Hall has a fair RAW argument for allowing the spell. Whether or not I agree that's the intent is irrelevant.

2. In RGMG and RUE, the Cure Illness spell has this text included: "The magic cannot cure [snip the list] internal damage to organs, only sickness caused by bacteria." The bold and underline was added by me, to highlight the part of the text added (the part before that is to showcase where it goes in the description). While this could help indicate intent, one could also argue that this is a variation between the different settings and the PF version is not limited by the Rifts version.

That's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[glitterboy2098]

2. In RGMG and RUE, the Cure Illness spell has this text included: "The magic cannot cure [snip the list] internal damage to organs, only sickness caused by bacteria." The bold and underline was added by me, to highlight the part of the text added (the part before that is to showcase where it goes in the description). While this could help indicate intent, one could also argue that this is a variation between the different settings and the PF version is not limited by the Rifts version.

that is.. interestingly specific. that would mean for example that the spell can cure Bubonic plague, Tetanus, and Syphilis.. but not the Flu, Measles, and Mumps. because the latter are Viral Diseases, not caused by Bacteria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... l_diseases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Viral_diseases


one thing to remember about PFRPG though.. while there may be magical cures for many illnesses, the game presents the costs of said cures as being fairly high. too high for the average peasant or freedman to casually obtain. so you'd get a dichotomy where the nobility (and many adventurers) have easy access to magical/psionic care able to keep them from getting sick or being sick for long.. but the average inhabitant of the land has a much more limited access to such things, restricted largely to whatever local preisthood or lesser psionic inhabitants can provide cheaply.

[kiralon]

and then there is the issue of the world not liking psionicists but liking psi mystics. Was better when healers weren't classed as psionicists.

[Library Ogre]

2. In RGMG and RUE, the Cure Illness spell has this text included: "The magic cannot cure [snip the list] internal damage to organs, only sickness caused by bacteria." The bold and underline was added by me, to highlight the part of the text added (the part before that is to showcase where it goes in the description). While this could help indicate intent, one could also argue that this is a variation between the different settings and the PF version is not limited by the Rifts version.

You leave out, I think, a crucial part of the description.

A potent magic that can cure ordinary disease and illness, such as fever, flu, and other common diseases. The magic can not cure cancer, AIDS, lung disease, wounds, broken bones or internal damage to organs, only sickness caused by bacteria. Nor can it cure magically induced sicknesses or disorders.

Emphasis added; it says that it can only cure sickness caused by bacteria, but specifically cites a virally caused illness as something it can cure, and something that is a symptom, not a disease. It is, as I have said, not a well written section, and only muddies claims of intent, because it is internally inconsistent within the same paragraph.

[Prysus]

You leave out, I think, a crucial part of the description.
[snip]
Emphasis added; it says that it can only cure sickness caused by bacteria, but specifically cites a virally caused illness as something it can cure, and something that is a symptom, not a disease. It is, as I have said, not a well written section, and only muddies claims of intent, because it is internally inconsistent within the same paragraph.

Greetings and Salutations. I left out the part that was the same between editions, basically everything other than the part I quoted. I included for those who may not have or looked in a Rifts book and stuck only to the PF ones so they have additional information.

And I started off my post talking about vague wordings leaving everyone to house rule. I don't have any particular desire to argue over someone house rules it. With that said, I can see a few ways to go about this.

1. Try to take all the information as truth. This would mean that the spell will cure any sickness caused by bacteria, as well as the flu and relieve a fever as these are noted exceptions. For the fever, it would only relieve the one symptom if not caused by a bacterial sickness or the flu. Note: I personally don't believe that's what is meant.

2. Take the stance that since it contradicts itself anything we do is by the book. I've seen this stance before and I, personally, feel it's horrible logic and has no place in a rules discussion.

3. Try to discern intent from evidence provided. In this case, they provide "fever, flu, and common diseases." We're also told it cures "only sickness caused by bacteria." We also know it won't cure "cancer, AIDS, lung disease, wounds, broken bones or internal damage." We also know it won't cure "magically induced sickness or disorders." This last one could mean disorders (any) or magical sickness, or magical sickness or magical disorders. Sonce they also didn't use a comma after broken bones and yet separate from internal damage we can't be sure.

The items listed that it can cure are typically caused by foreign bodies entering the victim. They're also mentioned to be "common." All the examples it does not affect are physical chronic conditions, as well as injuries from other sources (wounds and broken bones). Every example is also physical. These limitations are very similar to those from the Attack Disease psionic.

Insanity is not a physical ailment, arguably chronic (just because it doesn't hinder you any longer does not mean that it no longer exists at all), and I wouldn't call it "common" (most people will probably have the flu at some point, but I doubt most will be insane). Your mileage may vary.

In the end, I like the idea of mafic being more useful than it is (not including certain spells and combinations where people find a way to break the game), but the Palladium system doesn't seem to support that. Lunch break is over. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[RockJock]

So you have the ability to cure flu, cholera, typhus, leprosy, TB, and the black death(all bacterial except the flu). That would take out some major causes of death, especially since fairly small use of magic healing with many of the listed diseases could stamp out epidemics fairly quickly.