Combating a mind mage

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Whiskeyjack
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Combating a mind mage

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

More specifically, what have people done to counter super TK?
My son is playing a Wolfen mind mage. He wasn't doing too much with the character, especially during combat, so we sat him down to go over his powers and different ways he can use them. Needless to say, every combat now involves one of the opponents being used as a giant cudgel to pulverize everyone.
During a naval battle, I countered with an opposing mind mage who also grabbed anyone he did to stop them from being used in this way. It led to a constant tug of war with various people.
What other options are there for foiling this power on occasion?
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Re: Combating a mind mage

Unread post by Glistam »

Attack in waves; use hit and run tactics. Super TK has a duration that will run out so the ISP will get slowly used up when the duration ends and he has to re-initiate it.

You can't super TK what you can't see. Chameleon, Shadow Meld, and even basic stuff like hiding (prowl) in an ambush are all sufficient.

Increase Weight is a cheap, low level spell that can be used to make targets heavier than the activated TK limit. Remember too that a warrior in armor probably weighs a lot more than he looks.

Super TK only has a +3 to hit, it's pretty easy with physicL skills and HTH to get more than +3 to dodge. Also don't forget about A.R..

But normally, regular people don't have much of a defense. Mind Mages are scary and feared for a reason. The best ordinary people could do is try to grab onto something nearby as they start getting lifted up. Hide well, attack from range from multipe directions, and run away after the first couple attacks are the best options they really have. Then set up a new ambush 30 minutes later and repeat. The Mind Mage only has so much ISP. Eventually, he'll run out.
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Re: Combating a mind mage

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Time/duration of power (make each "target" a separate expenditure also)

ISP expenditure for weight. Remember to factor in gear and weapon weights to make it more expensive to cast. Its also per fixed increments of weight/mass.

Mages might be able to cast some cheap spells to make moving their allies like this difficult (increase weight, carpet of adhesion).

Obscure vision by some means (ex Blinding Flash spell, bio-manipulation psi, smoke), IIRC you need line of sight/vision to use TK/Super-TK.

Teleporting outside of range once grabbed (TK/Super-TK doesn't prevent the target from teleporting or being teleported).

Encounters with Astral Projectors (no physical body to use TK on)

Enemies who know about his tactic and prepare will likely try to keep their distance (not likely viable at high levels) or use simple raw numbers to overwhelm him.

Import Psi-Nullifier or Nega Psychic from Rifts (might be in other lines) Psycape, they can cancel out ISP expenditure making it more costly to use any psi-power. Or look for something similar that is resistant/immune to psychic abilities.

Have consequences for the action ("hey I broke a mirror" for ex) that get the character/party into hot water ("you broke the vase I sent you to retrieve" or "the gem on the ring was knocked free" for ex)
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Re: Combating a mind mage

Unread post by Glistam »

If I remember right too, some of the non-human races weigh a good amount - they could drain that I.S.P. significantly faster using the tactics I mentioned.

Without magic, characters could come into "battle" vs a Mind Mage (assuming they know the character will use T.K.) loaded with just bags of rocks, which make them heavier and harder to lift. But if they are lifted, they can just drop the bag so that they do less damage upon impact.

This would also be the sort of damaging tactic which would qualify for a roll with punch/fall/impact to reduce damage by half.
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Re: Combating a mind mage

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Also, for the basic folks... just grab on to something. You're gonna try to lift me, I'm going to grab on to a tree, or a rope, or another person, and suddenly you have to lift either me + another person, or me + my grip strength, whichever is less. If you allotted 300# and I suddenly weigh 400#, you can't pick me up until I let go.
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Re: Combating a mind mage

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Mind mages can't do much if they cannot focus their mind on what they are doing. As in concentrate. Had a troglodyte warrior monk take out a mind mage in one of my games. Previous encounters he had little defense against them. So he did some prep work. Got a find familiar scroll and got himself a dog bat as a familiar. Echo location to counter mind mage invisibility. Then with a combination of chi gung ( n&ss chi skill) and small doses of insect venom to build up immunity. He got a big paper wasp nest in a sack. When he encounter the mind mage again and when the MM was trashing the party and going invisible . The monk located him with his familiar. And hurled the wasp nest breaking it open on impact. The stinging swarm broke the mind mages ability to concentrate. The monk closed in and beat him to death with hand to hand combat.. as he did not even feel the sting of the swarm. Just got to get creative.
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Re: Combating a mind mage

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, as Glistam said there isn't a whole lot someone can do against TK when it's used on them. There is the grab on to something effect and that raises some interesting questions. If a PC grabs on to something and the TK tries to pull it up, is there a breakable part of the PC's clothing that might come free? like the boots come off, or a back pack? Now the mage has control of something less deadly, but has still spent the ISP.

This, of course, doesn't help much once you're caught. That's when the character's friends need to step in. Anyone not involved in melee combat should be able to look around and see the mind mage standing and watching the flight of his or her comrade. That would/should make the mind mage a target. So any distance attacks should target the Mind Mage. That means arrows, fireballs, rocks, etc. Also, anyone who is without opponent would probably charge. The nicer solution is as Shadow Logan said is to blind the Mind Mage by some means so the Mind Mage can't see.

Quick side note, if the TK is already in place throwing someone around and the mind mage is then blinded, can he still manipulate the target? Does the continued use of TK require sight of the target or is there some sort of haptic feedback? If it's the former, then losing sight results in the target being freed of the TK. If, the latter, the mind mage could still blindly slam the target into the ground.

Bottom line is, the over use of TK makes the mind mage a target. This is especially true for anyone planning on taking on the group. And with all powers, if the PC is abusing it, use it against him or her.

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Re: Combating a mind mage

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

Thanks for the ideas.
Increase weight is a good one. I hadn't even considered that.
I'll have to consider sending in some numerous small adversaries in the next battle to keep him busy.
I may also create some magical items that can be used to break his concentration or dampen his abilities.
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Re: Combating a mind mage

Unread post by kiralon »

Multiple Image, Darkness, Illusions also can have good effects. Especially multiple image because TK won't make it go pop.
Cobblers can see through the magical darkness spell. Get a couple going and shank him in the dark.
Rather then 1 100hp creature use 100 1hp creatures :)

There is a critter in eternal torment I think that supresses psionics from memory, am at work so cant check.
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Re: Combating a mind mage

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Good ideas kiralon. I'll check out darkest heart as well.
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Re: Combating a mind mage

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The Psykolops Hound can create a mental static that severely affects psychics. Pg 90 in Eternal Torment.
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Re: Combating a mind mage

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That's the one.
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Re: Combating a mind mage

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Mark Hall wrote:Also, for the basic folks... just grab on to something. You're gonna try to lift me, I'm going to grab on to a tree, or a rope, or another person, and suddenly you have to lift either me + another person, or me + my grip strength, whichever is less.

I'd like it if I could better understand how PS relates to this.

If a mind mages lifts you by your ankle then you could be flipped upside down and grabbing onto something to weigh you down would be like doing a chinup or something... so you could lift more weight, use your lats...

If they lifted your head though... that could be mighty uncomfortable...

By defaultwithout called shots psi hits the torso though, so it's hard to figure how you could be oriented in space. If you were supine it would be difficult to grab hold of things below/behind you (maybe line doing a dumbbell fly) but if you were prone you could more easily grab objects below you using your back muscles since they would be in front.

Also not sure how to do it combat-wise, if you react in time to grab something. How quickly does it lift you?
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Re: Combating a mind mage

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Only pick up your enemy by the eyeballs
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Re: Combating a mind mage

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kiralon wrote:Only pick up your enemy by the eyeballs

That'd be great! All you'd have to do is close your eyes and the effect would immediately stop! The psychic can't TK what they can't see.

Which leads to another interesting limitation - making sure the psychic is looking at those she's using TK on. Since she needs line of sight, interrupting it even momentarily should be able to disrupt it and cause the person, people, or object(s) to fall! What if she blinks? What if she's knocked down by a teammate? I think an ally breaking line of sight is the easiest way to deal with the OP nature of Super TK.
Last edited by Glistam on Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Combating a mind mage

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

Personally, I allow them to only grab the entire body. Alternately, they could grab a weapon to stop it.
Another thing that popped into my mind the other day. How many items do you allow TK to be used on at a time? Does the mind mage need to remain focused on that one object for the entirety? If they take time to dodge, does the object get released? If so, can they regain control, or do they have to start from scratch, reusing the ISP?
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Re: Combating a mind mage

Unread post by kiralon »

Glistam wrote:
kiralon wrote:Only pick up your enemy by the eyeballs

That'd be great! All you'd have to do is close your eyes and the effect would immediately stop! The psychic can't TK what they can't see.

Which leads to another interesting limitation - making sure the psychic is looking at those she's using TK on. Since she needs line of sight, interrupting it even momentarily should be able to disrupt it and cause the person, people, or object(s) to fall! What if she blinks? What if she's knocked down by a teammate? I think an ally breaking line of sight is the easiest way to deal with the OP nature of Super TK.

You only need about 50 lbs per square inch of force to pop an eye. Picking someone up by the eyes makes the eyes explode.
But the most common use is to pickup the opponent by the head and turn him around so he can be attacked from behind and cant get line of sight to you.

Power states one object per level can be manipulated as long as you don't go over the maximum limit.

I also play that if a psionic power has to penetrate an aura to do something, the owner of said aura can make a save. So grabbing someone psionically
means they get a save unless asleep.
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Re: Combating a mind mage

Unread post by Library Ogre »

The "grab their eyes" and "rip off their ears" arguments are why I only let TK work on the whole person, not integrated parts.
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Re: Combating a mind mage

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Mark Hall wrote:The "grab their eyes" and "rip off their ears" arguments are why I only let TK work on the whole person, not integrated parts.

Not to mention that totally defeats the purpose of Bio-manipulation power to exist IMHO.

(I know BM doesn't literally rip out eyes or off ears, but it can neutralize those sensory organs).
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Re: Combating a mind mage

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TK, levitate, mind bolt, mind wipe, mentally possess others, insert memory, catatonic strike, teleport object.
All good reasons to throw dragons at the party until the mind mage dies.
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Re: Combating a mind mage

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Numbers and distractions are my best suggestions.
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Re: Combating a mind mage

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Ancient GM wrote:Mind mages can't do much if they cannot focus their mind on what they are doing. As in concentrate. Had a troglodyte warrior monk take out a mind mage in one of my games. Previous encounters he had little defense against them. So he did some prep work. Got a find familiar scroll and got himself a dog bat as a familiar. Echo location to counter mind mage invisibility. Then with a combination of chi gung ( n&ss chi skill) and small doses of insect venom to build up immunity. He got a big paper wasp nest in a sack. When he encounter the mind mage again and when the MM was trashing the party and going invisible . The monk located him with his familiar. And hurled the wasp nest breaking it open on impact. The stinging swarm broke the mind mages ability to concentrate. The monk closed in and beat him to death with hand to hand combat.. as he did not even feel the sting of the swarm. Just got to get creative.


1)Isn't psi-invisibility a mental thing, not a light bending thing?
So the sonar thing wouldn't work. Not that warrior monks can have familiars...

2)or the mage just raise his personal force field or TK force field long enough to move the hive/wasps away.
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Re: Combating a mind mage

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Glistam wrote:Which leads to another interesting limitation - making sure the psychic is looking at those she's using TK on. Since she needs line of sight, interrupting it even momentarily should be able to disrupt it and cause the person, people, or object(s) to fall! What if she blinks? What if she's knocked down by a teammate? I think an ally breaking line of sight is the easiest way to deal with the OP nature of Super TK.

I found out in our last game that the above strategy won't work if the G.M. doesn't believe that breaking line of sight should mean an active TK effect (such as holding people helplessly up in the air) should end. We discovered after the fact that anyone held would remain held - the psychic just had the blindness penalties to contend with as far as further manipulation (such as throwing).
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Re: Combating a mind mage

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, this brings up a question I asked awhile ago. How much, if any, haptic feedback does the Mind Mage receive from TK and Super TK? How does the mage know how much force to use to pick up a boulder vs a precious vase? Does TK have proprioception? If the GM is ruling that the TK grip exists even after line of sight is gone, does the Mind Mage know he or she still is grabbing the item? If someone yanks the person or the object out of the Mind Mage's "grip" does the mental effect stop? Can the Mind Mage flail about looking for the item like someone who dropped his or her keys in the dark?

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Re: Combating a mind mage

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I rule no haptic feedback through TK; it's one of ectoplasm's few advantages.
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Re: Combating a mind mage

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Mark Hall wrote:I rule no haptic feedback through TK; it's one of ectoplasm's few advantages.

Ditto
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Re: Combating a mind mage

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Well, I agree with Ectoplasm having that advantage. However, that means we need some mechanism by which the Mind Mage uses the proper amount of force to lift an object. Here are a bunch of questions regarding this:

The Mind Mage usually just has an view of the object, but it doesn't know the mass or the coefficient of friction of the surface. So, the Mind Mage might grab too hard and crush something or not grab it hard enough and have the invisible hand slip off, right?

Actually, is there a coefficient of friction for TK? Does it matter if the object is wearing clothes or coated in oil? Is a swimming fish as easy to grab as a log lying on the ground?

Does the power grab like a hand or vise grip? Or is it just a general force that is applied evenly?

Could the Mind Mage grab a cube of water this way? Can the mage make the TK into a scoop and grab water?

If someone is wearing armor, does the mind mage grab the armor and the person goes with it, or is the mage somehow grabbing the entire person/armor combo?

Can someone jump around or run zig-zag and avoid the TK grasp?

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Re: Combating a mind mage

Unread post by Library Ogre »

See, I covered most of this in the Rifter article all those years ago. However, I'm on my phonen so a full response will come from someone else or when I get to work on Tuesday.
-overproduced by Martin Hannett

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Re: Combating a mind mage

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, that's what I get for not having a Rifter subscription!

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Re: Combating a mind mage

Unread post by Library Ogre »

#44, apparently
-overproduced by Martin Hannett

When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
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