Wolfen Vs the East : naval war

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Wolfen Vs the East : naval war

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

decided to spin this off into its own thread

Boethermsbrukan wrote:
glitterboy2098 wrote:
Boethermsbrukan wrote:Agreed. I'd add to that the fact that prior to forty or fifty years before the Palladium World's present day (I'm using 50 years as a possible extension, since Wolfen Empire came out several years ago) the Wolfen Empire wasn't in existence, with the remaining Twelve Tribes (and I assume elements of the Algor Range Huntsmen, which were mostly killed off by the rest of the Wolfen Tribes of the day en masse, who made it through without being put to the axe, sword and claw) often at odds with one another and not a single governmental and societal entity with a considerable massed Army behind it, sourced from (I assume) the military or tribal warriors of the individual Tribes prior to that. The initial Army that would exist after Confederation & Empire would be the amalgam of most or all of the fighting forces of the Tribes put together.

With little or no arguably destructive bickering between the Tribes post-Imperial State, there would also be room for considerable growth in population and technology (to a certain extent, anyway).


not to mention all those non-wolfen nations that the Empire has absorbed as affiliate states. those races and nations would likely have been engaged in low-level conflict with the wolfen tribes as well, which would make things worse pre-empire.

post-empire, they would be amplifiers for the Wolfen. (the kobolds alone would have made the Wolfen Empire a thing of fear, due to their superior metalworking. with that skill organized by the Empire, it means lots of good quality weapons and armor being produced.


Exactly right, and I know the Kobold metalworking advantage was mentioned as far back as Palladium Fantasy Book IV 'Advntures In The Northern Wilderness'. The biggest disadvantage the Wolfen have now compared to most major nations they've had or will eventually have a dust-up with is the lack of a significant navy (seagoing vessels); there are dependable craft in the water but nowhere near as many or as well-armed as Western or Eastern Navy ships. The two or three Orcish Affiliate States as well in sheer manpower gives the Wolfen a significant advantage as well; and of course, they're much happier being a part of the Wolfen military than any human organization's.

-Boe.


i don't know.. the Wolfen use basically viking longships, those are designs that are fairly easily constructed so long as you have sufficiently developed metal working (for the nails and some of the fittings) and access to a lot of wood. both something the Wolfen certainly have. so they can expand their navy pretty fast if they organize their manpower.

looking at Adventures on the high seas..
the Wolfen dragon ship has a crew of about 38 (28 oarsmen and 10 sailors.. really there wouldn't be a distinction), and can carry upwards of 40 warriors. presumably these are the wolfen numbers.. it could probably carry more of the smaller orcs, goblins, and humans.
since they are basically Viking longships, that means they should fair pretty well in rough seas, and be pretty agile under oars. and fairly shallow draft, so they can beach just about anywhere. (which may be why so few real ports)
their trade ships are just miniature versions of the dragonships, so could easily be pressed into service if you need more hulls, and can bring logistical supplies anywhere the warships can go.

the East though.. dear lord. first is the note that the East has never given much attention to naval matters. so it is highly unlikely they have a big navy,
second, the ships. Frikken 15th century Venetian galleys? in the Algor sea? no wonder they never gave much attention to naval matters, they probably lose their entire navy any time a storm brews up. those are meant for fairly calm Mediterranean waters, not the rough waters of what is AFAICT basically PF's version of the North Sea. lousy handling in rough seas, immense power on the straight away but not all that agile under oars.. and they're slower than the Wolfen longships (by about 1/2) so the Wolfen can basically deny battle anytime they want. and that lateen sail, while good for sailing close to the wind, is also fairly inefficent manpower wise and makes tacking suck.
even worse, they are the big galleys.. about 4x bigger than a Wolfen longship. and while that means it has a bigger crew (50 oarsmen, 30 sailor, and upwards of 72 troops) and can mount heavy weapons (2 ballistae and 6 arbalests), it also means that building one of these is going to be SLOOWW... especially considering the East is no where near as organized as the Wolfen. (the venetians managed to pull off rapid building in times of war, but that was because their naval shipyard had pre-fab 'ship kits' made in times of peace and stockpiled. so that when times of war hit they just had to hire workers to put tab-A into slot-B and hammer the nails in. something the East almost certainly has not done as it would require a lot of attention to naval matters.)
their trade ship is actually slightly better suited to the conditions (being basically a smaller type Caravel, which would actually be fairly agile in sailing, but again, has the manpower inefficiencies of the lateen sail, and no oars. the ship type originated in the calmer Mediterranean waters, but proved effective in the rougher waters of the mid-Atlantic during the age of discovery. still tend to be vulnerable to storms though, they never did do too well in the north Atlantic or the north sea) the type isn't going to help much in war though. no oars means that they'd be fairly limited in a battle, they can't carry much in the way of troops, and they can't be easily used to land troops or supplies on a beach (fairly deep draft, so would need to find a sheltered cove and would rely on piers/docks or rowboats to offload)

so i'd give the edge to the Wolfen here as well. their ships, while not as big or as powerful, are ideal for delivering ground forces to other shores, can be built rapidly, and are fast enough to control the battles at sea. their fighting style would be viking style.. archers on the ship to pick off the troops on the other ships while closing to board. think mobile forts.
the Eastern Kingdoms might have bigger and more impressive ships, but they are slow, would be hard to build rapidly, and are not really suited to trying to fight wolfen longships. nor would they be much help in delivering troops across the sea for amphibious operations. Eastern tactics would be to use archers and their seige engines to soften up the wolfen ships as they try to close (mainly trying to take out the oarsmen to hinder wolfen mobility) then Ram and board.
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Re: Wolfen Vs the East : naval war

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Yeah, and the man-to-man differences will really matter in a sea battle, and a number of smaller ships have a real advantage over single large ships when you consider magical assault. You crash one wolfen ship, there are still 6 others. You crash one Eastern Ship, you've got a lot of shark food.
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Re: Wolfen Vs the East : naval war

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

The Eastern kingdoms are really poised to wake a sleeping dragon, aren't they?
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Re: Wolfen Vs the East : naval war

Unread post by Library Ogre »

More a baby dragon that doesn't really realize it's own strength. From what we know, the Wolfen Territories have long been fractious and isolated... not really exercising their power because so much of it has been diluted in internal struggle. Now that the internal struggle has calmed down a lot, they're going to start looking outward, consolidating borders and exercising their might. I think there's several generations before the Wolfen really WANT to push into the Disputed Territories, but I think the Domain of Man is going to force them into it.

I don't have the Byzantium book, but I think they're going to be a significant factor in this. They've got colonies on the Dragon's Claw that can put a bit of pressure on the Wolfen (even if it's not military pressure, expansion from there would put pressure on the Wolfen to solidify and formalize their borders before it becomes a military issue), and they have a strong navy that can either support or hinder the Wolfen presence in the Algorian Sea. Even if they don't engage the Wolfen with their own Navy, the threat of doing so would make the Byzantines a powerful force in the Eastern trade.

Speaking of the navy, let's mention one thing the Wolfen navy will suck at: Blockade. While longships are good for blockade running, they don't really have the supply capacity to engage in a ship-borne blockade of ports. So the Byzantines won't need to break a blockade to run supplies to the Easterners, and the Byzantines might decide it is in their favor to trade with both sides.
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Re: Wolfen Vs the East : naval war

Unread post by kiralon »

Surprisingly the eastern territories does have a fairly large force of boats, just the Groff estates show have 200 of those war galleys, but ET currently have ~1200 galleons. 250+ war galleys, but the thing of note is that the easterners are happy to get their ships from other places and have ~300 Byzantium ships, not to mention what they have gotten from Timiro, and they are neighbors with Timiro, who do have one of the most powerful navies. I don't think the Wolfen would really bother invading from the outer sea as they have to go too far to get a couple of targets, better to just run the army on down and see what happens.
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Re: Wolfen Vs the East : naval war

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Mark Hall wrote:More a baby dragon that doesn't really realize it's own strength. From what we know, the Wolfen Territories have long been fractious and isolated... not really exercising their power because so much of it has been diluted in internal struggle. Now that the internal struggle has calmed down a lot, they're going to start looking outward, consolidating borders and exercising their might. I think there's several generations before the Wolfen really WANT to push into the Disputed Territories, but I think the Domain of Man is going to force them into it.

I don't have the Byzantium book, but I think they're going to be a significant factor in this. They've got colonies on the Dragon's Claw that can put a bit of pressure on the Wolfen (even if it's not military pressure, expansion from there would put pressure on the Wolfen to solidify and formalize their borders before it becomes a military issue), and they have a strong navy that can either support or hinder the Wolfen presence in the Algorian Sea. Even if they don't engage the Wolfen with their own Navy, the threat of doing so would make the Byzantines a powerful force in the Eastern trade.

Speaking of the navy, let's mention one thing the Wolfen navy will suck at: Blockade. While longships are good for blockade running, they don't really have the supply capacity to engage in a ship-borne blockade of ports. So the Byzantines won't need to break a blockade to run supplies to the Easterners, and the Byzantines might decide it is in their favor to trade with both sides.



on the otherhand, the eastern tradeships and Galeys would be great at blockading (tradeships for resupply at sea, Galleys are basically smei-mobile forts), so a naval war would likely become a case of 'the east blockades the wolfen ports, the Wolfen run the blockades or use their ship's beaching flexibility to bypass it"

a side story really since neither really has enough naval power to make a difference in the war (the east's navy is too small, the wolfen's navy just too limited at anything aside from amphibious assault and coastal raiding)

hmm.. Bletherade is technically a wolfen territory. but it actually lies closer to the Eastern territories. the wolfen have to go across the algor sea and along the eastern territories coast to reach it. and the wolfen don't have a very strong presence militarily speaking there.

i'm guessing that the East's first big naval action would be to take Bletherad and the library. keeps the Wolfen from being able to easily exploit all that knowledge, and maybe giving the east a chance to find some useful intel or details on secret weapons somewhere in the stacks.

since the Library is so far from the Wolfen Empire, it seems unlikely that the wolfen could easily recapture it.. and running the defenses wouldn't be much help if the east holds the island. you can't exactly do a commando raid to check out books..


kiralon wrote:Surprisingly the eastern territories does have a fairly large force of boats, just the Groff estates show have 200 of those war galleys, but ET currently have ~1200 galleons. 250+ war galleys, but the thing of note is that the easterners are happy to get their ships from other places and have ~300 Byzantium ships, not to mention what they have gotten from Timiro, and they are neighbors with Timiro, who do have one of the most powerful navies. I don't think the Wolfen would really bother invading from the outer sea as they have to go too far to get a couple of targets, better to just run the army on down and see what happens.

also, you have a source for those numbers, and for the sales of the byzantium and timro ships to them?
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Re: Wolfen Vs the East : naval war

Unread post by kiralon »

Yeah, check the story of the Byzantium captain who went around the world in adventures on the high seas, plus the details of the groff estates from eastern territories, and I would be surprised if the western empire didn't join in either, they don't like monster races and helping the east fight the wolfen would give them political capital at home (killing monsters that will come eat your babies) and political capital in the human international arena because they are helping humans fight monsters, and Timiro likely wouldn't stand by as the monsters slay their human neighbors. Never underestimate the power of racism in a war. I don't think either would jump in willy nilly, but if the monsters (wolfen) gave a concerted push I think the humans would band together like they did before against the west, no other country would want the wolfen to expand.
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Re: Wolfen Vs the East : naval war

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

If Timiro and the West try and make a move, the Old Kingdom is quite likely to mobilize, locking both down. Millions of monsters that have been amassing for years, coupled with the massive slave populations would lead to a massive conflict.
I personally don't see the West getting involved militarily. They're more likely to engage in sabotage and misdirection. While the Eastern Territories are human, they're lands that the West wants. If they are weakened enough by a war with the Wolfen, all the better for the West to come in and take over. If they play it right they'll even be seen as saviours and welcomed with open arms.
Bizantium has made it clear that they won't take sides in the war. The Wolfen may be "monsters", but they have proven honourable, worship the same gods, and are valuable trading partners as well as being their closest neighbours.
As for taking Bletherad, that would be the quickest way to turn the other nations of the world against you. The only reason no one seriously contests the Wolfens claim to it, is that they don't restrict people from going there.
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Re: Wolfen Vs the East : naval war

Unread post by kiralon »

The Old kingdom doesn't have enough of a government to mobilise an army, but hatred of the westerners has gathered about 300,000 and the western empires intelligence operatives think that number could almost get to a million, so I doubt there are millions waiting to do so, and as they are more limited in intelligence (gathering, not IQ) they wouldn't be real likely to react in any other way than they are now, as they aren't a cohesive force, just lots of individuals.
The slave problem would be more of an issue with Timiro, where they tend to outnumber the humans, but the Western Empire tends to outnumber the slaves 2 to 1, and if the monsters attacked you could guarantee that the slaves in the regions nearest the Old Kingdom would be put to death immediately. Historically speaking slave revolts haven't ever really been successful except as a lead up to the abolishment of slavery and the Western Empire knows something is up and has enough troops in the area to gank anyone they don't like (That is including the Lord and Ladies family running the frontier land, Itomas knows that they botched things so badly that he has summoned them back to Caer Itom so they can be executed properly.

And I think you are right about the westerners, they will wait until it looks really bleak for the eastern territory and send in rescue forces which will then basically take control. Timiro would want the western empire to take the eastern territories as little as they would want the wolfen to do so, not to mention to southerners wolfen are frightening monsters. The human kingdoms did band together against the western empire so there is definite precedence for the hoomies to make their own club, and the wolfen attacking the eastern territories would easily supply enough fear for em to do so.
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Re: Wolfen Vs the East : naval war

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

The old kingdom doesn't need a government. As soon as Timiro and the West start to move towards the area, they'll quickly "organize" and start their attacks. While they will probably never seriously threaten the West, I could see their Eastern most provinces being razed. This would ultimately limit the Wests direct involvement, except possibly by sea. I don't see Emperor being dumb enough to send troops through there though. Transporting them by sea would alarm Phi, Lopan and Bizantium (and maybe even the ET) enough to put a massive stall on the war and address the apparent Western invasion of the East. This could give the Wolfen enough time to push further South, or fortify where they are. It could potentially bring them and the ET into closer terms as they both turn to deal with a threat to them both. I think the slave population in the West is large enough to cause serious trouble for them, especially since there are huge numbers of Wolfen slaves there. Playing off of the slave escape adventure from Northern Wilderness (I think that's the book) could have a player group infiltrating the West to mobilize some resistance.
Timiro I'm pretty sure will be leveled no matter what happens.

Overall, this area and conflict has unlimited potential for roleplaying. It would be kind of neat to see a series of books put out that are similar to SoT, but with a What If bend. They could explore the likely outcome and what the world would look like after the dust settles. In one the Wolfen control the East, in another the West rules the world, in another the Wolfen and East reach a peaceful agreement and the West is brought to its knees. That would be fun.
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Re: Wolfen Vs the East : naval war

Unread post by Aku-Arkaine »

The East seems to be lacking in ports along the Algor Sea to be able to wage an effective naval campaign. The amount of infrastructure the need to build up would be a horrendous cost. I don't care how large your navy is, without proper logistic support it is going to flounder. AS a port city Southwatch looks a joke, and the next most logical place, Haven, is neutral in the conflict. They just don't have the infrastructure to take on the Wolfen. The same can be said of Timiro. They could mount a limited support campaign, but long term they would need the East to step up with the logistics, something that they can't do North of the Groff Estates. Groff is just too far South to be an effective place to stage a naval war from in the Alogor Sea. The Wolfen share none of these problems, leading to an inevitable Wolfen victory at sea.
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Re: Wolfen Vs the East : naval war

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Well I mostly think the wolfen navy is currently too small to talk about because it isn't mentioned, so I think the human navy would win. The wolfen centre of shipbuilding seems to be whitewater at the mouth of the Mother river, which makes it just as far away from the conflict as the groff estates (if not further). Surprisingly the tribe that sounds like it would do the most seafaring aren't mentioned as sailors, and are really only mentioned being timid and eating corn, and the trader tribe that are responsible for the treaties with other countries are known for their scouts and boating again isn't mentioned. The Dominion Army itself has a crap navy, but its member states have some really good ones. Given time the wolfen will catch up but at the moment they aren't a sea power.

Considering havens position they might wish to be neutral, but no army/navy would leave such a port unmolested as its the first important port of call on the east coast, and when taken would be an important link in the wolfens supply chain, not to mention leaving a potential enemy stronghold behind your lines is a bad idea, so they would be forced by ones of the sides to declare which side they fought on. They would probably be treated better by the wolfen if they haven't fallen prey to the (mostly) wolfen baby eater propaganda. (Why eat babies when you can eat corn).
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Re: Wolfen Vs the East : naval war

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

One thing that history has taught us is that war is an excellent motivator for building infrastructure.
We still don't know the extent of the Wolfen navy since the books so far have been so light on any real details on the Empire. As kiralon mentioned, tribes that would seem to be sea people, are not mentioned as being such.
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Re: Wolfen Vs the East : naval war

Unread post by eliakon »

I think one thing that people are forgetting is that ships are REALY vulnerable in Palladium.
A single medium level warlock can sink one in minutes...
...
Which makes those 'swarms of small but cheap' ships suddenly very efficient.
Sure they are fragile. But so are the giant 'solid' ships of the enemy. Ships that can not be so easily replaced and require extensive port facilities... meaning that it is pretty easy to know where to attack.

And the Wolfen Empire is one of the few places that can pull up Shaman for military duty. And those guys are nasty if they have, for example, entire fleets worth of people to provide the support for the dance before they set out for their raid...
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Re: Wolfen Vs the East : naval war

Unread post by kiralon »

I think that the east has it in the magic department, with mixed warlock, priest and wizard groups and the big boats would have enough casters to make swarming dangerous. Carpet of Adhesion is hilarious at sea and is an easy way to stop boarding (cast it on the front of the enemy boat mwahaha)., and increase weight works well too, what happens to a dragonship when suddenly one side of it weighs 2 tons more, and they are incredibly cheap spells for a wizard to cast and to put on scrolls. Get that same wizard to make a heap of scrolls that the sailors can read and the wizard casts antimagic cloud and then only his scrolls work. Bringing magic into the mix I think makes it easier for the easterners to win as they have more mature and diverse magic.
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Re: Wolfen Vs the East : naval war

Unread post by Library Ogre »

eliakon wrote:I think one thing that people are forgetting is that ships are REALY vulnerable in Palladium.
A single medium level warlock can sink one in minutes...
...
Which makes those 'swarms of small but cheap' ships suddenly very efficient.
Sure they are fragile. But so are the giant 'solid' ships of the enemy. Ships that can not be so easily replaced and require extensive port facilities... meaning that it is pretty easy to know where to attack.


Mentioned in literally the second post.
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Re: Wolfen Vs the East : naval war

Unread post by Aku-Arkaine »

Realistically, spellcasters make up a small percentage of the population. Then you are going to have only a small percentage of those that are willing to do naval service. Neither side will be able to get enough mages to man all their ships. Conscription can alleviate this somewhat, but only idiots conscript mages then expect them not to turn on them. I also think the Wolfen would actually have a better time recruiting volunteer mages than the East. The Wolfen political system seems to foster a greater sense of patriotism than the East's does.
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