Dark Priest Minion Query

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Kevin McIntyre
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Dark Priest Minion Query

Unread post by Kevin McIntyre »

I have a player who is in love with his Dark Priest Summon Minions of Darkness prayer. Having gotten a little cocky with it I have increased the encounter levels accordingly to make it not so easy for him to simply drop it out and rely on it when the situation gets hairy. Instead I want him to feel a bit of panic at times. I am currently about to drop them into an area that has access to the demon realm. They are not trying to access it but stop someone from opening this said portal. It neither fits nor does it conflict with his Gods plans for the future so they care little for the outcome. I am curious, I was wondering if it is possible for him to summon a minion and not only have a larger and more powerful demon, etc answer the summons but have a contest of Wills due to the proximity of the demon realm with which the demon is coming from. Or maybe not a battle of Wills but a battle of submission of a more physical nature? Sort of using the latent power of the portal as well as the priests prayer to hijacking the summoning so to speak?

A test of his God perhaps? To see if he is worthy of the prayer? Or am I just being to big of a douche? I will say that the group is coming to the culmination of a few years worth of playing this story arch and all the players are converging for one large and climactic hurrah.
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

Unread post by eliakon »

By canon? No it can't be done.
But since he is basically using a gods power... yeah if the god says "it is so" then guess what...
The trick of course is that if he wins it should count for something.
If its just a "your going to not be able to use your minion for this major scenario because its to dangerous" thing then that might be a bit cruel.
But if it is a real test... and if he passes then he gets some sort of perk afterwards? Totally 100% go for it (and twice on Tuesday)
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

Unread post by kiralon »

or the next time he summons it just have said god appear and say "I am your master, not the other way around, do not squander the power I give you by summoning a demon when you get scared, are you a little girl, scared of the dark or a powerful priest of darkness crushing the world under your grip for me. Frivolously summon my minions again and there will be consequences" and if you die your soul shall join the those who are to weak to use my power."

The player is the servant, not the other way round, I can understand summoning the minion if the dark gods plans are about to fail, but otherwise he is just wasting power, where a nice god might let it slide a dark god is just as likely to make his skin run off somewhere and hide.
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I don't necessarily agree, Kiralon. Depending on the deity, it might be that the priest is exercising and demonstrating his lord's might, not wasting his deity's great power.

If you want to force the battle of wills due to the proximity of the demon realm, I think that's perfectly reasonable, but I agree with Eliakon... it should have a benefit attached to the potential cost. Perhaps the battle of wills compels the beast to serve, not as a summoned minion of darkness, but as a summoner's thrall? It gives him more duration, and the beast is under his direct control, rather than proxy control, but still subjects it to the future battle of wills. Another option would be to make it akin to a Greater Familiar (as the spell).

Out of curiosity, Kevin, what level are y'all? Because Summon Minions of Darkness is potent, but also fickle until you get to higher levels... a strict duration, and limits on how many times per day it can be used, and you're only going to succeed once per day on average starting at 7th level (since 7th level is when the % gets over 50%, and you can only try it twice per day).
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

Unread post by kiralon »

Doesn't sound like it from what KM has said, also I am slightly biased having just played a priest. Because the prayers have no real cost to the player they will usually do at every dangerous situation, as they aren't commonly happening 3 times a day, the percentage is %10 + %8 per level with another bonus %8 from prayer of strength, that gets its out often enough at level 4-5 to make encounters hard work for the dm as the party may or may not get the priests level in lesser demons to help, and he can do it every day just by muttering a couple of words. DM throws enough bad guys at the party to take the demons as well, the priest fails and the party gets eaten. The dm throws a normal group of bad guys at the party, priest summons demons and the bad guy might as well not been there for the threat level. Divine Intervention for the good priests is the same. It can massively unbalance any encounter for no real cost to the wielder of said power, I know my priest could.
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

Unread post by Kevin McIntyre »

@Mark Hall - The group as a whole are around 10 or 11 range. The player in question is what we like to call a Book B1tch in our circle. He has a photographic memory and can blurb statistics off like he's an extra for Dustin Hoffman in Rainman. He has literally turned a good battle, meaning it would be close and hard won, into a "Why did we even bother to show up?" type of battle. Not really his fault I imagine as it is intrinsic to the character class, more of an annoyance really having to have a plan B to make the combat memorable. It got to a point during one session where I simply wouldn't attack him or his demon, almost killed the entire group but him, which caused irritation from everyone else saying they were being singled out.

However, that being said. I do like your idea of the Battle of Wills amounting to something. Possibly if the Demon wins, forcing the priest to do a service or favor for him in order to keep him there. Ala, doing a service for his Deity.

@kiralon - That makes sence, the God that he worships is Zandragal... actually have a Priest of Light in the group that worships her as well. The duality nature of her and her "game of chess" brought the two players to an agreement to play both aspects of her. Which is interesting and fun and flavorful roleplaying. I think I may combine what you and Mark have suggested, and have her speak through this minion and give him a "Task" to win this prize.

Ideas a plenty now... thank you gentlemen. Possibly having Lady Annak Zeftan pop out instead and say until he completes said task the minions will no longer answer his call.

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*edit... side note. We haven't played in about a year due to my son going into the military so we put it on hold until we could all game together again. Looking through my notes and this characters folder I found an index card where i had already given him a Task from Zandragal. A Boon of Blood that he has yet to deliver on. So Ill just have her pop out the next time he calls for the Demon and tell him, "Hey. I love you my son, but you haven't done what you agreed on so no toys for you until you complete the task." At least that way he can't get upset since technically its his fault for not doing it.
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

Unread post by Reagren Wright »

kiralon wrote:Doesn't sound like it from what KM has said, also I am slightly biased having just played a priest. Because the prayers have no real cost to the player they will usually do at every dangerous situation, as they aren't commonly happening 3 times a day, the percentage is %10 + %8 per level with another bonus %8 from prayer of strength, that gets its out often enough at level 4-5 to make encounters hard work for the dm as the party may or may not get the priests level in lesser demons to help, and he can do it every day just by muttering a couple of words. DM throws enough bad guys at the party to take the demons as well, the priest fails and the party gets eaten. The dm throws a normal group of bad guys at the party, priest summons demons and the bad guy might as well not been there for the threat level. Divine Intervention for the good priests is the same. It can massively unbalance any encounter for no real cost to the wielder of said power, I know my priest could.


Priest have always been my favorite PF characters because what they can do. However, both
the Priest of Light and Dark have prayers that get really abused. The Summon Minions of
Darkness and the Prayer of Intervention. I had a player who was constantly using the Prayer of
Intervention all the time. It was driving me crazy. I keep saying to myself I can't believe you
are allowed to use it all the time. I felt in my bones something was wrong. That's when I pulled
out my PF 1ST EDITION copy. Sure enough, Prayer of Intervention: Limited to: Once per day
(24 hour period). Success ratio: 9% per each level of the priest' experience. Summon Minions
of Darkness: Limited to two attempts/ prayers per day (24 hour period). Duration: 5 melees or
special tasks/quests. Success ratio: 8% per each level of the priest's experience. Apparently
Kevin decided to increase the Priest's Prayer ability, but he forgot to limit the use of the
ability. So that could be a way to stop your player from summon demons ALL the time.

Here's another though. Remember all the power a priest receives comes from the deity It
doesn't make sense for there to be a battle of wills. Remember the priest is spreading the
word of the deity (just like clergy in real life). He's preaching to the
faithful. Why would a god give his servant (priest) the power to summon minion to serve him
faithfully and help spread the word of the deity if the minions he summons kill him before the
crowd of worshippers? The deity is sending the minion because they are suppose to be
minions.

Think of this. Cardinal Medean (Leader of the Church of Light and Dark in Timiro) is a 13th
level Priest of Darkness (Thoth). When he uses his ring (+5% bonus to prayers), he chance to
summon minions is 111%. So 13 demons show up for twice in a 24 hours period for 65
minutes. In theory he can make these demons do anything he want them to do. But remember
GMs you duty during the game is play the roll of deity and demons.

Now I do believe as eliakon said, summoning these minions should count for something. I can
imagine a priest summons his minions and says, "Go chop me some firewood." These demons
are like "Are you serious?" Then one says, "Hey the master says we do whatever he says. I'm
no disobeying him and killing this guy. He got that surmon to perform at the mount tomorrow
before 10,000 orc followers before they storming the castle." Now suppose the priest keeps
doing this for a week, having the demons constantly doing demeaning chores, washing the
floor, paint the house, do his laundry and so on. I can see the demons saying, "That it we're
not doing what he says. Let's kill him and eat him." Later on the deity kills these minions after
the faithful choose to stop worshiping the deity because the minions killed the priest while
performing the marriage ceremony between the orc war chief and his orc bride.

But definitely think about how you player is using these minions. Just because he rolled
successful doesn't mean the end result is what he gets. Remember just because you have a
98%prowl doesn't meant you the 8 foot wolfen can automatically sneak into a room full of
humans and stab a guy in the back without anyone noticing. As G.M. You control the deity and
the minions, regardless what the dice roll turn out to be. Don't let your player acts like its a
video game where he presses a button and his minions show up ready to serve. He needs to
act like a priest and use those minion properly and purposely.
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

Unread post by kiralon »

The problem with the game that my priest was in was the main quest was to restore Ra, and the priest was a priest of Isis, and you get to the end of level bad guy who has a piece of Osiris and you do a prayer of intervention, as you are trying to get a piece of Ra its unlikely that Isis would deny it, so you cast sanctuary, and then beat the dragon to death with your goupillion flail as the dragon is unconscious, or you go fight a necromancer and his minion mages to get another piece and DI and cast anti magic cloud and beat the now useless magic users to death with a rock. It makes the end level fights easier than the random encounters.
Not to mention that DI is more useful then most miracles (miracle of food purification lol). The DM really had to cut down my priests powers to stop it from ruining an encounter which is what DI usually does. What really was needed was something like faith points, and you need x amount of faith points to be able to do certain prayers, as taking a character class, then getting limitations put on it afterwards tends to be annoying, but the priest class needs it, especially if you a doing a religious campaign.
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

Unread post by Kevin McIntyre »

Reagren Wright wrote:
Here's another though. Remember all the power a priest receives comes from the deity It
doesn't make sense for there to be a battle of wills. Remember the priest is spreading the
word of the deity (just like clergy in real life). He's preaching to the
faithful. Why would a god give his servant (priest) the power to summon minion to serve him
faithfully and help spread the word of the deity if the minions he summons kill him before the
crowd of worshippers? The deity is sending the minion because they are suppose to be
minions.


@Reagren - I have always followed the rules in the book and it states twice in a 24 hour period, which he is limited to. But being level 10 (I think) that's nearly an hour twice a day. He utilizes it very well. I wasn't saying a battle of Wills always. I have never once told him he couldn't do it as was the Prayer ability. It is a Priestly Ability and thus he can do it. I was saying that the proximity of a gateway to the demon realm that is being tampered with could allow for some of the Demons own Willpower to seep through and conflict with he Priest. Hell, even to the point of his God saying that if you can't control a simple Demon then why should I continue to grant you power. But as I said in my post right before yours I have a solution to the problem. His God gave him a task and he hasn't done it yet. So she will grant him only limited powers until he gets it done. It will set the urgency for him to complete their task at hand or the task his God gave him first. I'm not one to break groups up on purpose but it will be interesting to see how he can convince his group of relatively good people to go on a task from his Deity to murder a few people, some being innocent.

And to the others who helped me work this out, even though I had the answer in front of me, thanks. It is great to have someone there to either back you up, tell you fix t, or help with a new idea. Thanks.
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Kevin McIntyre wrote:@Mark Hall - The group as a whole are around 10 or 11 range. The player in question is what we like to call a Book B1tch in our circle. He has a photographic memory and can blurb statistics off like he's an extra for Dustin Hoffman in Rainman. He has literally turned a good battle, meaning it would be close and hard won, into a "Why did we even bother to show up?" type of battle. Not really his fault I imagine as it is intrinsic to the character class, more of an annoyance really having to have a plan B to make the combat memorable. It got to a point during one session where I simply wouldn't attack him or his demon, almost killed the entire group but him, which caused irritation from everyone else saying they were being singled out.

However, that being said. I do like your idea of the Battle of Wills amounting to something. Possibly if the Demon wins, forcing the priest to do a service or favor for him in order to keep him there. Ala, doing a service for his Deity.


Yeah, 10th is when it gets really nasty, because he's got so damn MUCH he can do with those 10 minions in an hour.

However, I'd simply lean towards introducing that goose to the gander... another evil priest who likes the same prayer. A high-level summoner who may have half as many minions, but can have Greater Demons among them, and action economy aside, they can do some significant damage... especially if the summoner is standing in a Power Matrix that includes Protection from Demons (or Deevils, or whatever that god is giving), and a few power circles. A Gift of Union Major Pact witch, who is essentially a demi-god in their own right. Or a great Priest of light, calling upon the Miracle of Control over Magic. Whoops, all your demons got banished back, and it's a sanctuary now.

Most of those are relatively scalable. He summons demons? Here are an equal number of deevils... plus one.
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

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Mark Hall wrote:However, I'd simply lean towards introducing that goose to the gander... another evil priest who likes the same prayer. A high-level summoner who may have half as many minions, but can have Greater Demons among them, and action economy aside, they can do some significant damage... especially if the summoner is standing in a Power Matrix that includes Protection from Demons (or Deevils, or whatever that god is giving), and a few power circles. A Gift of Union Major Pact witch, who is essentially a demi-god in their own right. Or a great Priest of light, calling upon the Miracle of Control over Magic. Whoops, all your demons got banished back, and it's a sanctuary now.

Most of those are relatively scalable. He summons demons? Here are an equal number of deevils... plus one.


I did manage to put a clam on that as when his minions started to get to many I just summoned a singular demon that matched them in power. Mainly a gargoyle, as I wasn't trying to keep track of six or seven Lasae at one time during a fight. With six people in group, bad guys, and six of them it got really hectic. So I limited his number to make it more balanced. On a side note, I did have him summon a few ghouls once when they were fighting in a cemetery. Imagine the groups surprise when a handful of ghouls began climbing and digging their way out of the ground and shambling toward them before attacking the bad guys and no one knew what was going on. Even he looked shocked until they started attacking everyone else instead. Ah, its the simple things.

Interesting that you mention that, as that is sort of one of the tasks the his God set forth for him. He has to kill an Elder of Faith. Doesn't say what religion the Elder must worship. Whose to say the alter/temple they wonder to next isn't one of a dark God, or as you say a witch? Who in their own right can claim they worship something. Faith is in he who believes after all.
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

Unread post by Library Ogre »

A fun option is a Dark Priest with witch pact guards. Oh, you thought they were just Trolls? Nope. Mercenary Fighters with Pacts of Power... +200 SDC, Supernatural Strength, Increased Physical Prowess. Oh, and immune to fire.
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

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Mark Hall wrote:A fun option is a Dark Priest with witch pact guards. Oh, you thought they were just Trolls? Nope. Mercenary Fighters with Pacts of Power... +200 SDC, Supernatural Strength, Increased Physical Prowess. Oh, and immune to fire.


That is an intriguing idea... new boss fight.
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

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Kevin McIntyre wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:A fun option is a Dark Priest with witch pact guards. Oh, you thought they were just Trolls? Nope. Mercenary Fighters with Pacts of Power... +200 SDC, Supernatural Strength, Increased Physical Prowess. Oh, and immune to fire.


That is an intriguing idea... new boss fight.


One of the bits I enjoyed writing from the MOM Manuscript was a bunch of new Pact of Power Powers.
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

Unread post by Kevin McIntyre »

Mark Hall wrote:One of the bits I enjoyed writing from the MOM Manuscript was a bunch of new Pact of Power Powers.


I didn't know that there were new powers in there for PoP. I'll have to look at it again.
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

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I don't think they made it into print for the book.
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Kevin McIntyre wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:One of the bits I enjoyed writing from the MOM Manuscript was a bunch of new Pact of Power Powers.


I didn't know that there were new powers in there for PoP. I'll have to look at it again.


Manuscript. The manuscript is about 190 pages long... that's without art. The published work was much shorter.
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

Unread post by Razorwing »

To be honest... if it would make an interesting story or adventure... I would say... why not.

As to those who say the rules don't allow for such things... there is always the Golden Rule... that the GM can change things for his game. If it would be fun to teach this player not to rely so heavily on his God to provide an easy out for him (and Dark Gods are notoriously finicky Gods)... then this could be a fun story to run with... to make a player sweat a little when he realizes he has gone just beyond the fine line that he was walking. As long as the GM isn't being too vindictive and actually trying to kill the character (GMs should always provide an alternative for players to save their characters... only foolish and prideful players would refuse such options and let their characters die needless deaths), then it could be entertaining to an entire group... even if it embarrasses one player and character a little.

The rules in the books are merely guidelines... not a straight-jacket that must be followed word for word. When the rules prevent an interesting and fun story... the Story should win out over them. The best games I have played in or ran for others didn't always follow every rule... but they were fun and the groups hardly cared that the rules were bent... or broken to some degree. In the end... fun should be the only rule one follows (fun for all involved).
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

Unread post by Kevin McIntyre »

I was having a conversation with this very player tonight and ironically he stated he couldn't wait to start as he has some sacrificing to do. Almost made me proud... So when I drop the ooops Big Bad Goddess just popped down and said she doesn't like that you've put her task off so long... Your demons... yeah here is ONE... he will follow you around until you get this task done that you agreed on and I have set for you. However, he is in the guise of a raven who will perch on your shoulder and bug the living hell out of you until you get it done. I still grant you your demons... I just refuse them to help you speech.
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

If you find the player is abusing the Prayer there are options one can take in game:
1. Prayers can only be attempted so many times per 24hour period (twice by RAW, PF2E pg68). Track and enforce it. Use SMART enemies who will attempt to use the weaknesses who will hold back until the prayer is "exhausted" for that period of time (like attack x3 in 24hr period using the first two for "probing").
2. Per Dragons & Gods pg88 (Right Column 2nd Paragraph under "Exchanging PPE and Priest Powers" Heading). The God can take action to audit and approve the powers that are being expended in his/her name. This can be used to justify having the god/Deity take a vacation during which time no prayers will be answered.
3. Give their opponents access to greater numbers, either by raw number or by summons (like a Summoner, Dark Priest of their own, Necromancer using their spell/powers).
4. Give their opponents access to spell casters, for example:
-the spell/Ritual "Banishment" could weaken if not outright negate the Priest's level and available minions (each minion has to make a save vs magic, add in spell strength of the caster and it becomes a bit harder)
-Carpet of Adhesion OR Magic Net can immobilize for a short period of time
-some Circle Magic could prevent the minions from entering (neutralizing them)
5. Change the arrival time of the summoned minion. Nothing in the description requires the minion to be instantly there does it? Or even not give the player time to complete the prayer (requiring a prayer to be of a certain length in duration for it to be heard)
6. The god/deity doesn't have to send X lesser being, they can send their own minions in place or even decide they don't use X lesser being(s) any more (for what ever reason).
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

Unread post by zyanitevp »

kiralon wrote:The problem with the game that my priest was in was the main quest was to restore Ra, and the priest was a priest of Isis, and you get to the end of level bad guy who has a piece of Osiris and you do a prayer of intervention, as you are trying to get a piece of Ra its unlikely that Isis would deny it, so you cast sanctuary, and then beat the dragon to death with your goupillion flail as the dragon is unconscious, or you go fight a necromancer and his minion mages to get another piece and DI and cast anti magic cloud and beat the now useless magic users to death with a rock. It makes the end level fights easier than the random encounters.
Not to mention that DI is more useful then most miracles (miracle of food purification lol). The DM really had to cut down my priests powers to stop it from ruining an encounter which is what DI usually does. What really was needed was something like faith points, and you need x amount of faith points to be able to do certain prayers, as taking a character class, then getting limitations put on it afterwards tends to be annoying, but the priest class needs it, especially if you a doing a religious campaign.

As the GM in question, I agree with Kiralon- and have done something like his faith point suggestion here to try and balance things.
Remember, Kevin punished his wife at the time for having a minor slip as a priestess- you should hold the Priest to a higher standard at all times....
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Re: Dark Priest Minion Query

Unread post by zyanitevp »

Mark Hall wrote:
Kevin McIntyre wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:One of the bits I enjoyed writing from the MOM Manuscript was a bunch of new Pact of Power Powers.


I didn't know that there were new powers in there for PoP. I'll have to look at it again.


Manuscript. The manuscript is about 190 pages long... that's without art. The published work was much shorter.

Honestly still drives me crazy that MOM1 seems to have all the really good stuff on the cutting room floor, and even more upset that MOM 2 never made it out....
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