Past Eras of the Palladium World

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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

I'll definitely see if my LGS can order them in.
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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

Unread post by Razorwing »

The Minion War doesn't prove that all the "presents" of all the different game lines are synced. All it proves is that from the Demon's perspective, the war is following a linear pattern. From the rest of the Megaverse's perspectives however, the various fronts are happening on hundreds of worlds in as many dimensions at as many points in time.

We can agree that the various Earth game lines are likely set on parallel Earths... different timelines where some event in the past caused a fork that took each Earth down a different path. Those that have relatively similar pasts... like Nightbane Earth and Heroes Unlimited are likely relatively close, metaphysically speaking... as other than the presence of Nightbane in one and Super Heroes in the other, they are fairly identical in past events. The same is likely true with the parallel Earth that will become Rifts Earth. Even land masses are more or less similar... so the branching event that separates them is likely not too far in the past, or the differences between all the various Earth settings would be far more noticeable. This suggests that all Earths share a common starting point... a moment in time where there was but one Earth that could become any of the Earth game settings.

This means that the 21st century, as we would recognize it at the same distance from Earth's beginning across all parallel Earth timelines should be happening at more or less the same time. Thus, there is little chance of the "present" of Rifts Earth actually being the "present" of Heroes Unlimited... as the present of Rifts Earth is happening in the 23rd or 24th century, while the present of HU is in the 21st.

But Demons and Devils are coordinating their efforts on multiple fronts from their home dimensions... thus their perspective of "present" is filtered through that connection. Thus the deevils on HU Earth are getting updates on events happening on Rifts Earth... even though those events are some 300+ years in the future from the perspective of humans. Were a super hero (say with the Immortal power) were to live through those next 300+ years... there is a chance that he may witness the events on Rifts Earth... assuming HU Earth becomes Rifts Earth (a possibility, as we don't know which Earth timeline/dimension becomes Rifts Earth).

We already know that rifts open through time as well as space and reality. Erin Tarn, Victor Lazlo, and others have experienced temporal dilation in their travels. So if none of the non-earth dimensions are temporally synced with Earth (in other words their "present" is at a different time than the "present" on Earth... something else must be making travel to specific periods easier to reach.

The answer is actually surprisingly easy to see.

MAGIC.

Worlds rich in magic are generally easier to reach through dimensional rifting... as the fabric of space-time is often weaker in these places. Worlds like Rifts Earth are like a beacon to those looking for a place to go. It is like looking up at a night sky and instantly being drawn to the brightest star in the sky. Metaphysically speaking... Rifts Earth is easy to spot. Palladium may not have as much magic as Rifts Earth does... but it is still a magic rich world... so it too would be a fairly bright star in the night time sky... and relatively easy to spot... making travel to it relatively easy (though not as easy as it has been in the past). Now... we also know that looking at stars in the sky... we are not seeing them as they are right now... but as they were in the past... when their light first traveled in our direction. By the same token, finding Rifts Earth metaphysically means finding the current "present" of Rifts Earth... even if one actually has to cross hundreds of years between your "present" and its "present". The same is true of a world like Palladium.

Yes... it is possible to locate the much higher levels of magic during Palladium's past... but metaphysically speaking, one would need a more powerful telescope to see that far away, temporally speaking. It's like looking for a bight star 100 light years away... and a star that is twice as bright 1000 light years away directly behind the first one... possible but not easy. This also explains... in part, why it is easier to travel to Rifts Earth than it is to Chaos Earth. Metaphysically speaking, they are both very rich in magic... making locating them easy... but temporally they are much closer to each other than say "present" Palladium and the Elf-Dwarf War era Palladium (a mere 200 years separated Chaos and Rifts Earth, but over 6000 years separate "present" Palladium from the Elf-Dwarf War). The other part is that Chaos Earth is magically unstable... thus deliberately targeting it is like trying to shoot a fly out from between its wings... a very small chance of success. By contrast, it is easier to reach Earths like Heroes Unlimited or Nightbane due to their much lower magic levels (like detecting an exo-planet orbiting a bright star), even though temporally they are still very close to Rifts Earth (and even closer to Chaos Earth).

So how does this make it easier to reach "present" Palladium from "present" Rifts Earth than say a more magical moment in Palladium's past? For that we need another analogy... that of the worn path. Because Rifts Earth is easy to detect magically, it is easy to establish connections to it... especially between powerful nexus points where the fabric of space, time and reality is already weak. The more often such a path is established... the more warn the path between those destinations, and thus the more likely one will establish a connection between those two worlds at roughly the same time period. This isn't perfect... as Erin Tarn experienced when returning from Wormwood (which also has a long history of traveling to Earth... thus has a well worn path/connection linking the worlds). This also works in reverse... as a well work path is easy to follow in both directions. It is safe to assume that during the dark age between Chaos Earth and Rifts Earth... many paths between many world were created between Rifts Earth and others... including Palladium. The paths to Palladium likely spanned all of Palladium's past... but given the temporal distance between its various levels of magic... the relatively high but not Rifts level of magic on Palladium's "present" was likely opened to more often than say the much higher levels of magic from the Age of 1000 Magics (70,000 years ago from Palladium's present reckoning). Even so... connecting to those past events on Palladium would still create a path between Earth and Palladium to follow... just as a normal path can branch off into less worn paths.

To a dimensional traveler, following a well worn path to a given dimension is easier than following a less worn path to a more distant destination (dimensionally or temporally). Thus, since the paths to both Palladium's "present" and Rifts Earth are relatively well worn... it is fairly easy to travel between these points. That however doesn't mean that they are actually happening at the same time.

This is also true for Demons and Deevils as they have an innate connection to their home dimension (this is what prevents them from truly dying when not in their home dimension). As such they intuitively sense time in relation to their home. Thus, even though demons may be fighting a single war in multiple fronts in the same relative dimension but at different temporal coordinates, they can continue to co-ordinate with each other across time through their home dimension. Thus demons and deevils on Heroes Unlimited can be updated on the progress of others of their kind on Rifts Earth... and vise versa... through their respective home dimensions. It is even possible for one side or the other to relay important information or needs in this manner (say the location of pre-Rift cashes of items one might need... a mystic weapon of particular value could be left buried on HU Earth to be dug up 300+ years later on Rifts Earth... even if they aren't exactly the same timeline... the event that created Rifts Earth caused at least a little overlap with other timelines... even shifting portions of them with each other; though there is still 300+ years for someone else to have found such an item first... assuming that particular place merges/translocates to Rifts Earth).

Even with all of this... there is no way to be 100% sure that any given "present" in any given dimension or timeline syncs up to any other "present" in any other world. Seeron in the Three Galaxies (the world of Skraypers) is believed to have been populated by a lost Atlantean clan from the time of Atlantis' disappearance 15,000 years ago... but archaeological evidence suggests that humans appeared some 200,000 years ago from "present" Seeron's perspective... more than 10 times further in the past than the event that supposedly scattered the True Atlanteans that would colonize that world... if true.

Just because people can travel from "present" Rifts Earth to "present" Palladium consistently doesn't mean that the two are synced so that their various events are happening at the same time. Time is relative to the traveler... not the world he is traveling to or from.
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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

Unread post by eliakon »

Spoiler:
Razorwing wrote:The Minion War doesn't prove that all the "presents" of all the different game lines are synced. All it proves is that from the Demon's perspective, the war is following a linear pattern. From the rest of the Megaverse's perspectives however, the various fronts are happening on hundreds of worlds in as many dimensions at as many points in time.

We can agree that the various Earth game lines are likely set on parallel Earths... different timelines where some event in the past caused a fork that took each Earth down a different path. Those that have relatively similar pasts... like Nightbane Earth and Heroes Unlimited are likely relatively close, metaphysically speaking... as other than the presence of Nightbane in one and Super Heroes in the other, they are fairly identical in past events. The same is likely true with the parallel Earth that will become Rifts Earth. Even land masses are more or less similar... so the branching event that separates them is likely not too far in the past, or the differences between all the various Earth settings would be far more noticeable. This suggests that all Earths share a common starting point... a moment in time where there was but one Earth that could become any of the Earth game settings.

This means that the 21st century, as we would recognize it at the same distance from Earth's beginning across all parallel Earth timelines should be happening at more or less the same time. Thus, there is little chance of the "present" of Rifts Earth actually being the "present" of Heroes Unlimited... as the present of Rifts Earth is happening in the 23rd or 24th century, while the present of HU is in the 21st.

But Demons and Devils are coordinating their efforts on multiple fronts from their home dimensions... thus their perspective of "present" is filtered through that connection. Thus the deevils on HU Earth are getting updates on events happening on Rifts Earth... even though those events are some 300+ years in the future from the perspective of humans. Were a super hero (say with the Immortal power) were to live through those next 300+ years... there is a chance that he may witness the events on Rifts Earth... assuming HU Earth becomes Rifts Earth (a possibility, as we don't know which Earth timeline/dimension becomes Rifts Earth).

We already know that rifts open through time as well as space and reality. Erin Tarn, Victor Lazlo, and others have experienced temporal dilation in their travels. So if none of the non-earth dimensions are temporally synced with Earth (in other words their "present" is at a different time than the "present" on Earth... something else must be making travel to specific periods easier to reach.

The answer is actually surprisingly easy to see.

MAGIC.

Worlds rich in magic are generally easier to reach through dimensional rifting... as the fabric of space-time is often weaker in these places. Worlds like Rifts Earth are like a beacon to those looking for a place to go. It is like looking up at a night sky and instantly being drawn to the brightest star in the sky. Metaphysically speaking... Rifts Earth is easy to spot. Palladium may not have as much magic as Rifts Earth does... but it is still a magic rich world... so it too would be a fairly bright star in the night time sky... and relatively easy to spot... making travel to it relatively easy (though not as easy as it has been in the past). Now... we also know that looking at stars in the sky... we are not seeing them as they are right now... but as they were in the past... when their light first traveled in our direction. By the same token, finding Rifts Earth metaphysically means finding the current "present" of Rifts Earth... even if one actually has to cross hundreds of years between your "present" and its "present". The same is true of a world like Palladium.

Yes... it is possible to locate the much higher levels of magic during Palladium's past... but metaphysically speaking, one would need a more powerful telescope to see that far away, temporally speaking. It's like looking for a bight star 100 light years away... and a star that is twice as bright 1000 light years away directly behind the first one... possible but not easy. This also explains... in part, why it is easier to travel to Rifts Earth than it is to Chaos Earth. Metaphysically speaking, they are both very rich in magic... making locating them easy... but temporally they are much closer to each other than say "present" Palladium and the Elf-Dwarf War era Palladium (a mere 200 years separated Chaos and Rifts Earth, but over 6000 years separate "present" Palladium from the Elf-Dwarf War). The other part is that Chaos Earth is magically unstable... thus deliberately targeting it is like trying to shoot a fly out from between its wings... a very small chance of success. By contrast, it is easier to reach Earths like Heroes Unlimited or Nightbane due to their much lower magic levels (like detecting an exo-planet orbiting a bright star), even though temporally they are still very close to Rifts Earth (and even closer to Chaos Earth).

So how does this make it easier to reach "present" Palladium from "present" Rifts Earth than say a more magical moment in Palladium's past? For that we need another analogy... that of the worn path. Because Rifts Earth is easy to detect magically, it is easy to establish connections to it... especially between powerful nexus points where the fabric of space, time and reality is already weak. The more often such a path is established... the more warn the path between those destinations, and thus the more likely one will establish a connection between those two worlds at roughly the same time period. This isn't perfect... as Erin Tarn experienced when returning from Wormwood (which also has a long history of traveling to Earth... thus has a well worn path/connection linking the worlds). This also works in reverse... as a well work path is easy to follow in both directions. It is safe to assume that during the dark age between Chaos Earth and Rifts Earth... many paths between many world were created between Rifts Earth and others... including Palladium. The paths to Palladium likely spanned all of Palladium's past... but given the temporal distance between its various levels of magic... the relatively high but not Rifts level of magic on Palladium's "present" was likely opened to more often than say the much higher levels of magic from the Age of 1000 Magics (70,000 years ago from Palladium's present reckoning). Even so... connecting to those past events on Palladium would still create a path between Earth and Palladium to follow... just as a normal path can branch off into less worn paths.

To a dimensional traveler, following a well worn path to a given dimension is easier than following a less worn path to a more distant destination (dimensionally or temporally). Thus, since the paths to both Palladium's "present" and Rifts Earth are relatively well worn... it is fairly easy to travel between these points. That however doesn't mean that they are actually happening at the same time.

This is also true for Demons and Deevils as they have an innate connection to their home dimension (this is what prevents them from truly dying when not in their home dimension). As such they intuitively sense time in relation to their home. Thus, even though demons may be fighting a single war in multiple fronts in the same relative dimension but at different temporal coordinates, they can continue to co-ordinate with each other across time through their home dimension. Thus demons and deevils on Heroes Unlimited can be updated on the progress of others of their kind on Rifts Earth... and vise versa... through their respective home dimensions. It is even possible for one side or the other to relay important information or needs in this manner (say the location of pre-Rift cashes of items one might need... a mystic weapon of particular value could be left buried on HU Earth to be dug up 300+ years later on Rifts Earth... even if they aren't exactly the same timeline... the event that created Rifts Earth caused at least a little overlap with other timelines... even shifting portions of them with each other; though there is still 300+ years for someone else to have found such an item first... assuming that particular place merges/translocates to Rifts Earth).

Even with all of this... there is no way to be 100% sure that any given "present" in any given dimension or timeline syncs up to any other "present" in any other world. Seeron in the Three Galaxies (the world of Skraypers) is believed to have been populated by a lost Atlantean clan from the time of Atlantis' disappearance 15,000 years ago... but archaeological evidence suggests that humans appeared some 200,000 years ago from "present" Seeron's perspective... more than 10 times further in the past than the event that supposedly scattered the True Atlanteans that would colonize that world... if true.

Just because people can travel from "present" Rifts Earth to "present" Palladium consistently doesn't mean that the two are synced so that their various events are happening at the same time. Time is relative to the traveler... not the world he is traveling to or from.


Let me get this straight...
we can either
1) assume that the Infernals have access to reliable, targeted time travel, but use it ONLY for the sole purpose of establishing fields of battle. NO use for corruption, intelligence gathering, recon, or anything else. Just solely for opening the way to different battle fields.
And
2) we can accept that every single dimension book written is actually not telling the truth about the megaverse and those dimensions are not really there they are really off separated in time. Which puts the Gods, and Splugorth and every other transdimensional being in the megaverse in the same situation of having reliable exploitable time travel and choosing not to use it.
And
3) We can accept that there is this weird magical time mismatch thing that, even though it is not talked about in any book is totally going on, in every dimension, and affects every portal every teleport and every gate...
Or
4) We can accept that the time lines are, indeed, synched and that the Megaverse operates exactly as it appears to be on the surface with a person traveling from Point A to Point B not traveling forward or backward in time at all but just traveling across dimensions.

Occam's razor would tell me that #4 is going to be the way to go with this one.

<edit> and just to note, we know for a fact that there can be some rare instances of traveling backwards in time. it does happen but it is not a routine thing. Thus it is perfectly possible for a group of Atlanteans to arrive someplace before they left once in a while, but that sort of thing is explicitly said to be a very rare event in several books.
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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

Unread post by Razorwing »

I wouldn't say reliable time travel... just well used paths through the Mirror Wall (cracks if you will) that lead to specific times and places.

It isn't reliable... as Erin Tarn found out when after 2 years on Wormwood, she returned to Rifts Earth after 5 years had passed.

Yes, time will pass on both sides of such paths... as time will carry the path forward through their respective timelines... but that doesn't mean those time lines are synced... merely connected by a bridge. Think of it as two large ice burgs floating in a sea of ice burgs. Connecting them through a rift is like tethering the two ice burgs together for a time... they will flow together for a time because of that connection... and may continue to do so for a time when the connection is severed. They will also tend to remain close to each other for a time... allowing other connections to be established easily.

Even so, once the connection is gone, they will eventually drift apart... and depending on other events (such as tethering to other ice burgs) can drift apart and in different directions making establishing the old connections difficult... possibly impossible.

The Deevils and Demons fighting across the Megaverse are targeting places and times that are easy to reach for them... nearby iceburgs that they can tether to. More importantly, they are maintaining connections to their home dimensions with frequent portals... and the occasional permanent ones that maintain the fragile tethers they have. As long as these connections persist... they can keep their superiors informed of their progress on the multiple fronts which can then be relayed to the commanders on other fronts.

It isn't 100% reliable... but it is reliable enough for them to continue fighting... and for them to be a serious danger... as their efforts in past versions of Earth could potentially have huge ramifications for future versions. We don't know if HU Earth becomes Rifts Earth or not... so the Armageddon Project there could potentially turn Rifts Earth into a Deevil controlled Nexus World rather then the free-for-all that it currently is (more likely though it will merely create an alternate version of Rifts Earth that is controlled by Deevils). As it currently stands, in most cases, the commanders on the various fronts have nearly full autonomy over their respective troops due to the unpredictable nature of opening rifts... which could potentially lead to the future or the past (but more likely to what a dimension considers it's present). Following the cracks in the mirror wall between dimensions isn't perfect or easy... some are deep and easily navigated... others are barely scratches and hard to notice. The more often a specific world and time is accessed... and the more powerful magic is at that destination... the more likely one can reach it. But again that doesn't mean that worlds are synced in time... that 103 PA on Rifts Earth = 2017 on HU/Nightbane Earth or whatever the current date on Palladium is... merely that these time zones/eras are fairly easy to reach.
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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

Unread post by eliakon »

Razorwing wrote:I wouldn't say reliable time travel... just well used paths through the Mirror Wall (cracks if you will) that lead to specific times and places.

It isn't reliable... as Erin Tarn found out when after 2 years on Wormwood, she returned to Rifts Earth after 5 years had passed.

Yes, time will pass on both sides of such paths... as time will carry the path forward through their respective timelines... but that doesn't mean those time lines are synced... merely connected by a bridge. Think of it as two large ice burgs floating in a sea of ice burgs. Connecting them through a rift is like tethering the two ice burgs together for a time... they will flow together for a time because of that connection... and may continue to do so for a time when the connection is severed. They will also tend to remain close to each other for a time... allowing other connections to be established easily.

Even so, once the connection is gone, they will eventually drift apart... and depending on other events (such as tethering to other ice burgs) can drift apart and in different directions making establishing the old connections difficult... possibly impossible.

The Deevils and Demons fighting across the Megaverse are targeting places and times that are easy to reach for them... nearby iceburgs that they can tether to. More importantly, they are maintaining connections to their home dimensions with frequent portals... and the occasional permanent ones that maintain the fragile tethers they have. As long as these connections persist... they can keep their superiors informed of their progress on the multiple fronts which can then be relayed to the commanders on other fronts.

It isn't 100% reliable... but it is reliable enough for them to continue fighting... and for them to be a serious danger... as their efforts in past versions of Earth could potentially have huge ramifications for future versions. We don't know if HU Earth becomes Rifts Earth or not... so the Armageddon Project there could potentially turn Rifts Earth into a Deevil controlled Nexus World rather then the free-for-all that it currently is (more likely though it will merely create an alternate version of Rifts Earth that is controlled by Deevils). As it currently stands, in most cases, the commanders on the various fronts have nearly full autonomy over their respective troops due to the unpredictable nature of opening rifts... which could potentially lead to the future or the past (but more likely to what a dimension considers it's present). Following the cracks in the mirror wall between dimensions isn't perfect or easy... some are deep and easily navigated... others are barely scratches and hard to notice. The more often a specific world and time is accessed... and the more powerful magic is at that destination... the more likely one can reach it. But again that doesn't mean that worlds are synced in time... that 103 PA on Rifts Earth = 2017 on HU/Nightbane Earth or whatever the current date on Palladium is... merely that these time zones/eras are fairly easy to reach.

Like I said...
...this is a neat house rule of yours and might make an interesting game...
...but it goes against what the actual published material talks about and requires instead replacing it with vast amounts of homebrew and supposition.
Erin Tarn didn't 'drift in time' by cannon she was in a place where time travels at a 3:1 ration so you spend 2 years there and 6 years pass in the 'real world'
Just like, in canon, when you hop from one of the dozens of interdimensional centers to another one, you will always wind up in the same date.
You can't get to the past. If you travel from Splynn to Center you do not go to a past Center or future Center. If you travel from Hades to Palladium you always get to the same Palladium. And so on and so forth.
This is rather important because there are a LOT of beings that are multi-dimensional and exist in multiple dimensions at once (Gods, Demon Lords, Devil Lords and Alien Intelligences for example) They do not exist in multiple times, just dimensions.
Splyncryth does not exist in different times (and in point of fact Pantheons is rather emphatic that Zurvan monitors for beings that do that sort of thing)...
...which he would if his essence fragments were scattered through time every time they went through a rift.
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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

Unread post by Razorwing »

There is nothing in Dimension Book 7's Time Flow section on Building Dimensions that states: The present in all dimensions are happening at the same time.

It states that most dimensions have similar time flows (that spending time in one will be equivalent to spending time in another) or that they will have differing time flows (that spending time in one will be equivalent to spending a different amount of time in another). It does not state that present of Palladium is happening at the same time as the Present in any other world. It also makes the assumption that they will return to their original world through the same portal that brought them to their current dimension.

While dimensions are linked... tethered together... the flow of time can by synced for a time... but only so long as the portal remains open. The reason why Dyval and Hades tend to be happening at the same time as Palladium is because they have active and permanent portals open to Palladium in the Great Rift in the Land of the Dead. This keeps Palladium tethered to these dimensions... and time flowing at a noticeable speed... though Dyval doesn't appear to be affected by the flow of time (each layer has its own seemingly unchanging time of day and season).

This means that while time may flow at a similar rate in most dimensions (the passage of 1 second per second towards the future) it doesn't actually state that the "present" in a given dimension is the present in any other.

Certain places.. like Rifts Earth, Center and such... have so many deep fractures within the Mirror Wall that lead to their current "present" that 999 out of 1000 times people try to reach these dimensions, they will end up at more or less the current present. Palladium, with a much lower level of magic and dimensional travel, but many active portals (mostly in the Great Rift of the Land of the Damned) is also fairly easy to travel to "its" present.

Respectively, I find it hard to believe that the Timeline of Rifts Earth happened to begin exactly 291 years before the Timeline of HU Earth (or any modern Earth setting) so that it's present would be so precisely synced with that of all modern "present" settings... it just too convenient that this ONE Earth started exactly so much sooner that it would be 291 years ahead of ALL other Earths (save possibly Splicers Earth... which we aren't entirely sure is Earth).

The simple truth is... you want the various game lines to by synced in their present times simply to make it easier for yourself... even if there is no actual evidence in any of the books to suggest this is true for any of the game lines. The closest I can find in any books comes from the Hades book that suggests its time flow is similar to both Palladium and Rifts Earth... but that may only be due to the portals it currently has to these worlds... and is questionable at best.

Time is not the constant you believe it to be... that all events are happening in the "present" across dimensions... when it can't be proven that the "present" in one dimension is the same as the "present" in another. Time, space and even reality have little actual meaning when crossing dimensions.

Now... since we aren't going to convince either we are right (and the books you claim as proof are not as clear on the subject as you claim), I suggest we drop this argument and get back to the topic of the thread... and discuss the different eras in Palladium history with an eye to making those eras playable to some extent. Any further insistence that your way is the "ONLY RIGHT WAY" will be ignored... and if you insist on continuing this pointless argument... then I will have to ask a moderator to censure you or even close this thread entirely.

Agree to disagree (right or not).
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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

Unread post by eliakon »

Razorwing wrote:There is nothing in Dimension Book 7's Time Flow section on Building Dimensions that states: The present in all dimensions are happening at the same time.

It states that most dimensions have similar time flows (that spending time in one will be equivalent to spending time in another) or that they will have differing time flows (that spending time in one will be equivalent to spending a different amount of time in another). It does not state that present of Palladium is happening at the same time as the Present in any other world. It also makes the assumption that they will return to their original world through the same portal that brought them to their current dimension.

While dimensions are linked... tethered together... the flow of time can by synced for a time... but only so long as the portal remains open. The reason why Dyval and Hades tend to be happening at the same time as Palladium is because they have active and permanent portals open to Palladium in the Great Rift in the Land of the Dead. This keeps Palladium tethered to these dimensions... and time flowing at a noticeable speed... though Dyval doesn't appear to be affected by the flow of time (each layer has its own seemingly unchanging time of day and season).

This means that while time may flow at a similar rate in most dimensions (the passage of 1 second per second towards the future) it doesn't actually state that the "present" in a given dimension is the present in any other.

Certain places.. like Rifts Earth, Center and such... have so many deep fractures within the Mirror Wall that lead to their current "present" that 999 out of 1000 times people try to reach these dimensions, they will end up at more or less the current present. Palladium, with a much lower level of magic and dimensional travel, but many active portals (mostly in the Great Rift of the Land of the Damned) is also fairly easy to travel to "its" present.

Respectively, I find it hard to believe that the Timeline of Rifts Earth happened to begin exactly 291 years before the Timeline of HU Earth (or any modern Earth setting) so that it's present would be so precisely synced with that of all modern "present" settings... it just too convenient that this ONE Earth started exactly so much sooner that it would be 291 years ahead of ALL other Earths (save possibly Splicers Earth... which we aren't entirely sure is Earth).

The simple truth is... you want the various game lines to by synced in their present times simply to make it easier for yourself... even if there is no actual evidence in any of the books to suggest this is true for any of the game lines. The closest I can find in any books comes from the Hades book that suggests its time flow is similar to both Palladium and Rifts Earth... but that may only be due to the portals it currently has to these worlds... and is questionable at best.

Time is not the constant you believe it to be... that all events are happening in the "present" across dimensions... when it can't be proven that the "present" in one dimension is the same as the "present" in another. Time, space and even reality have little actual meaning when crossing dimensions.

Now... since we aren't going to convince either we are right (and the books you claim as proof are not as clear on the subject as you claim), I suggest we drop this argument and get back to the topic of the thread... and discuss the different eras in Palladium history with an eye to making those eras playable to some extent. Any further insistence that your way is the "ONLY RIGHT WAY" will be ignored... and if you insist on continuing this pointless argument... then I will have to ask a moderator to censure you or even close this thread entirely.

Agree to disagree (right or not).

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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

Unread post by kiralon »

What if time leaked through the portals as well, slowing down and speeding up time around the portals too.
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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

Unread post by Aku-Arkaine »

kiralon wrote:What if time leaked through the portals as well, slowing down and speeding up time around the portals too.


Since when is this a quantum physics discussion? ;)

I think that is an interesting idea that could lead to some great things in an adventure. You could be fighting around a portal, all the while watching your reinforcements crawling toward you in slow motion. Great for dramatic effect.
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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

I like this train of thought. There was a Stargate SG1 episode that was like this. A black hole was slowing time and keeping one of the gates open, spreading the time distortion farther and farther into the other world.
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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

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Eliakon... you haven't proved your point either... and in the end the point is moot.

In all the books... I have only seen one... that is ONE reference that even suggests that Rifts Earth, Hades and Palladium... might have their timelines currently synced... and even then there is no way to be sure if it has always been that way... is that way only because of current events linking those dimensions... or if it will continue to be synced.

One reference does not make a Palladium Megaverse Wide Rule that all current game lines are synced to the exact current "present".

The only reference you provided from the Megaversal Builder Dimension Book doesn't support your conclusion... all it states is that some dimensions may mover differently than from standard time flow that we are used to. Some may be faster, some may be slower. THAT IS ALL IT SAYS. It doesn't say that all current "presents" are synced. It doesn't say that when moving from one to the other that one won't end up at a different point in time. All it says is that the time flow is standard or different.

You never proved your point with any game book.

As for making threats... I didn't. You began derailing this thread which is supposed to be about Palladium's past eras into a discussion of temporal physics and theory in a game environment. It doesn't matter when the Atlantean disaster happened in relation to Palladium's past because Rifts can open between times as well as cross dimensions. So what if Earth and Palladium are synced and that 15,000 years ago on Earth is the same as 15000 years ago on Palladium? We already know that Tatttoo and other magics used by (and presumably developed by Atlanteans... at least on Earth) were being used at some point on Palladium. Does this mean that Atlanteans had to bring it to Palladium? No, but they might have. It is possible that Atlanteans have visited Palladium further back than 15,000 years ago... as they were accomplished dimensional travelers long before their arrogance lead to the cataclysm they caused. That said... even if the two worlds are synced in time... that doesn't mean that Atlanteans couldn't have appeared much further back in time than the beginning of the Elven Empire. Going forwards or backwards in time through a dimensional rift isn't impossible.

All that being said... there is no evidence that Tattoo Magic is exclusively the creation of Atlantis in all the Megaverse and no one else can develop it independently unless shown how by Atlanteans. Do you think that the Atlanteans or even the Chiang-Ku dragons taught the Splugorth how to make magical Tattoos? If the Splugorth can develop magical tattoos independently of Atlantis... then so could others. Perhaps Magical Tattoos on Palladium started with the Spirit Tattoos... and then were refined into something closer to what the Atlanteans developed... using PPE rather than HP to power them. Eastern Territories makes it clear that legends of Elves and such empowered by Mystic Tattoos go back a long time... and it states that both the Elves and Dwarves were surprised to find Danzi surviving in the area that would become the Eastern Territories. I'm inclined to believe that Tattoo Magic was created without any connection to Atlantis... much like Wizardry and other magics.

So let us proceed that any magics in Palladium were developed there... without influence from other worlds. Let us figure out ways that such magics can exist here without bringing other books from other game lines into this.
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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

Unread post by Library Ogre »

In the end, I think the easiest assumption is "Rifts might move through time and space. For convenience, this frequently puts you right in the middle of another Megaversal setting's 'present day', but nothing says that is necessary." If I step through a random Rift, I might wind up anywhere, anywhen. Suddenly, I'm on Earth, but 10,000 years ago. Another Rift and I'm in the far future of the Palladium World... it's ten square meters surrounded by the Black Wall at the edge of the world. I go through another Rift and I'm two weeks ago in Phase World, watching myself go through the first Rift.

We don't normally see this in games because time-travel shenanigans are an obnoxious plot device most of the time. It can be done, but why bother?
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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

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Razorwing wrote:Now... since we aren't going to convince either we are right (and the books you claim as proof are not as clear on the subject as you claim), I suggest we drop this argument and get back to the topic of the thread... and discuss the different eras in Palladium history with an eye to making those eras playable to some extent. Any further insistence that your way is the "ONLY RIGHT WAY" will be ignored... and if you insist on continuing this pointless argument... then I will have to ask a moderator to censure you or even close this thread entirely.

Agree to disagree (right or not).

Greetings and Salutations. Agree to disagree is a good idea. With that said, writing a lengthy post to defend your side, then threaten anyone who responds to you is generally bad form. Even more so when you make another post after that to further argue your side. I can't speak for everyone, but that kind of attitude is a great way to make me think your threads aren't worth responding to at all.

Also, I'm not sure any forums rules have actually been broken here, which makes your threat come off empty. Even if a moderator was to get involved, the fairer action would've been to split off the topic of rifts and time travel into a separate thread so it doesn't clog up this one. Instead of that, you've attempted to censor other posters and threaten to get the thread locked so that you can get the last word. This makes "agree to disagree" come off as a hollow gesture. And since YOU brought it back up anyways ...

I've been ignoring most of the debate between eliakon and yourself, as it's rather meaningless to the topic (or even my initial complaint), and I had no interest in being in an argument just for being in an argument. But there are a few points I'd like to bring up ...

Razorwing wrote:Certain places.. like Rifts Earth, Center and such... have so many deep fractures within the Mirror Wall that lead to their current "present" that 999 out of 1000 times people try to reach these dimensions, they will end up at more or less the current present. Palladium, with a much lower level of magic and dimensional travel, but many active portals (mostly in the Great Rift of the Land of the Damned) is also fairly easy to travel to "its" present.

By this logic, 999 out of 1000 rifts would open up during the Age of Chaos for the Palladium World. Magic energies were 10x more powerful than Rifts Earth, and they did a lot of dimensional travel. The Old Ones mined other dimensions for races to modify as minions (if I recall correctly, Land of the Damned books discuss various races from other dimensions that they then altered), demons, dragons, angels/Spirits of Light, gods, etc. were also involved.

So how often have the Old Ones and their minions during the Age of Chaos spilled out onto Rifts Earth again? Because, you know, that should be happening ... a lot, by your theory at least.

And wouldn't portals to high magic, high dimensional travel areas mean travel to Rifts Earth is a 50/50 shot between the setting we know as Rifts Earth and the time of the Atlanteans (when magic was still high, and they did all sorts of dimension traveling to the point of opening the Super Rift)?

Razorwing wrote:Respectively, I find it hard to believe that the Timeline of Rifts Earth happened to begin exactly 291 years before the Timeline of HU Earth (or any modern Earth setting) so that it's present would be so precisely synced with that of all modern "present" settings... it just too convenient that this ONE Earth started exactly so much sooner that it would be 291 years ahead of ALL other Earths (save possibly Splicers Earth... which we aren't entirely sure is Earth).

In fairness, I actually agree with you here. Furthermore, I believe it was RWB4: Africa that they indicate that Beyond the Supernatural is the past of Rifts Earth (or, that Rifts Earth is the future of Beyond the Supernatural). This was later retconned when Palladium tried to separate it's various IP.

Time travel is possible with a rift, as we see evidence various times. Going from memory (so I can't recall the exact locations and it's possible I'm remembering incorrectly, but I can try to hunt them down if someone doubts them), in PF I believe there's a dwarf from the Elf-Dwarf War times, in Rifts we have Victor Lazlo (from modern day), there's the Erin Tarn thing (maybe due to a different flow of time). Of course, in the examples I can think of, the travel of time is always going forward in time. That doesn't mean that's the only way time can flow, but does seem to be the more common, when it actually happens.

Of course, as a G.M. and writer, I'd say that the most likely reason we don't see much time travel (and when we do people go to the future) is it avoids all the annoyances that come with time travel. If travel to the past of a dimension can be done with fair reliability (even if not 100% accuracy) we get things like the Elves going back in the past to warn their past selves of the Dwarves plans to blow up Baalgor, and then the Dwarves going back in the past to warn their past selves of the Elves countering their plans so they can counter the counter, and then the Elves going back in the past (again) to warn their past-past selves of the Dwarves countering their counter so they can counter their counter of their counter, and then the Dwarves ... well, see where this is going yet? When time travel is available in a war, people will use it, especially when we're talking about wars of extinction such as the Elf-Dwarf War (because losing is NOT an option!).

Of course, the same is true for the Chaos War. Minions of the Old Ones? Let's just time travel before they were put into their slumber, give warnings, kill Lictalon when he was a baby a la Terminator style, etc.

While time travel CAN happen from a rift or dimensional portal, the time aspect doesn't seem to be something controlled. Time travel seems more of a side effect than an intentional result. I'd view it more as a plane crash. People fly on planes all the time. They're relatively safe and reliable. Plane crashes can and do happen though, and the fear of that does make people cautious of them. You can use rifts and portals while normally being fine, but sometimes you'll slip into a different time as well (and you can't control when this will happen or when you'll end up).

Note: In the above examples I provided, I believe all of them were from a random rift, as opposed to an intentional dimensional portal they opened (with Erin Tarn, even if one of the portals was intentional, the question becomes whether BOTH were intentional, otherwise only one needed to provide time travel and you'd never really notice until you return home). I'd personally suspect that random rifts are more likely to result in a displacement of time than the ones you open yourself.

Or, you know, what Mark Hall said above.

Razorwing wrote:All that being said... there is no evidence that Tattoo Magic is exclusively the creation of Atlantis in all the Megaverse and no one else can develop it independently unless shown how by Atlanteans. Do you think that the Atlanteans or even the Chiang-Ku dragons taught the Splugorth how to make magical Tattoos? If the Splugorth can develop magical tattoos independently of Atlantis... then so could others. Perhaps Magical Tattoos on Palladium started with the Spirit Tattoos... and then were refined into something closer to what the Atlanteans developed... using PPE rather than HP to power them. Eastern Territories makes it clear that legends of Elves and such empowered by Mystic Tattoos go back a long time... and it states that both the Elves and Dwarves were surprised to find Danzi surviving in the area that would become the Eastern Territories. I'm inclined to believe that Tattoo Magic was created without any connection to Atlantis... much like Wizardry and other magics.

I'll address this in multiple points.

1: Agreed, Tattoo Magic can be developed independently. Whether it was or was not developed independently is completely irrelevant to my original complaint (see #4).
2: Actually, yes, I do think the Splugorth learned Tattoo Magic from either the Atlanteans or the Chiang-Ku. I'm not saying either gave that information willingly, but I'm fairly sure they say the Splugorth learned Rune Magic from the Dwarves, then tried to wipe out any who still had that knowledge. I thought something similar was said regarding Tattoo Magic (without the attempt to wipe the race out after). However, I could be remembering incorrectly, or even making it up entirely. I did read the Atlantis book like 15 years ago, and since I don't play Rifts I haven't really read it since.
3: The Tattoo Magic discussed in Mysteries of Magic can NOT be the Danzi magic, as the reference states it was removed from the Palladium World and the Danzi still live there. Ergo, their Spirit Tattoos cannot have been destroyed. Also, Dragons & Gods references Tattoo Magic in relation to the Millennium of Purification in the Chiang-Ku section, I'd find it illogical to jump to the random conclusion they included this reference with Chiang-Ku Tattoo Magic even though it was a completely different form of magic.
4: Whether or not the magic was developed independently doesn't address how silly the statement was (along with the lines about the Stone Magic, and others). The section says that the magic was only saved/destroyed by taking it off World. The statement tells us that the magic was purified from the Palladium World (no longer exists there), but was "saved" by taking it off world. For the magic to be "saved" by taking it off world, it could NOT exist off world already. So that means ...

4a: The Palladium World created the magic originally and all others stem from the Palladium World magic (placing the Palladium World at least 10,000+ years into our future). Possible, but I find this unlikely and truly dislike this theory.
4b: Whether the Chiang-Ku created it on Atlantis and then brought it to the Palladium World or they were created independently doesn't matter. For the Mysteries of Magic statement to be true, everyone who knew Tattoo Magic (every single Chiang-Ku, every single True Atlantean, possibly every single Splugorth, and possible others) were on the Palladium World at the exact same time during the Millennium of Purification, then every single one of those were either killed or ran scared from the Elves and Dwarves. I'm not sure I can emphasis how improbable I find this one.
4c: The statement in Mysteries of Magic was nonsensical and makes no sense when we look at the Megaverse as a whole, so best to ignore it. This is the one I'm leaning towards, as the ones above feel just as silly to me anyways.

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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

Unread post by Suicycho »

kiralon wrote:Well I already have palladium at the centre of the dimensions and the astral and ethereal planes like a cut all the way into the onion layered totality existence (with creatures of the outer dark beyond the outer layer), and magic spread out in waves from the centre, that's why the old ones hung out in palladium in the first place, there would have to be something special about palladium otherwise why would the old ones fight so hard for it rather than



When I used to run games Palladium was kind of the nexus of it all because the Old Ones slept there.
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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Suicycho wrote:
kiralon wrote:Well I already have palladium at the centre of the dimensions and the astral and ethereal planes like a cut all the way into the onion layered totality existence (with creatures of the outer dark beyond the outer layer), and magic spread out in waves from the centre, that's why the old ones hung out in palladium in the first place, there would have to be something special about palladium otherwise why would the old ones fight so hard for it rather than



When I used to run games Palladium was kind of the nexus of it all because the Old Ones slept there.


Whereas I had it that they slept there because it was the balanced center... you could build the wards that forced them to sleep only by aligning the elemental forces of the megaverse against them.
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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

Unread post by Glistam »

Mark Hall wrote:
Suicycho wrote:
kiralon wrote:Well I already have palladium at the centre of the dimensions and the astral and ethereal planes like a cut all the way into the onion layered totality existence (with creatures of the outer dark beyond the outer layer), and magic spread out in waves from the centre, that's why the old ones hung out in palladium in the first place, there would have to be something special about palladium otherwise why would the old ones fight so hard for it rather than



When I used to run games Palladium was kind of the nexus of it all because the Old Ones slept there.


Whereas I had it that they slept there because it was the balanced center... you could build the wards that forced them to sleep only by aligning the elemental forces of the megaverse against them.

My own dimensional map has the Void in the center, surrounded by the Astral Plane, and the other dimensions all within the Astral. But this is good argument here for revisiting my theories on that.
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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Glistam wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
Suicycho wrote:
kiralon wrote:Well I already have palladium at the centre of the dimensions and the astral and ethereal planes like a cut all the way into the onion layered totality existence (with creatures of the outer dark beyond the outer layer), and magic spread out in waves from the centre, that's why the old ones hung out in palladium in the first place, there would have to be something special about palladium otherwise why would the old ones fight so hard for it rather than



When I used to run games Palladium was kind of the nexus of it all because the Old Ones slept there.


Whereas I had it that they slept there because it was the balanced center... you could build the wards that forced them to sleep only by aligning the elemental forces of the megaverse against them.

My own dimensional map has the Void in the center, surrounded by the Astral Plane, and the other dimensions all within the Astral. But this is good argument here for revisiting my theories on that.


My dimensional map has Palladium at the center and the elemental planes around the edges... not in a circle, but more in a tetrahedron, such that each has a line of sight on the others... if you put fire at the top, the three corners at the base would be Earth, Wind, and Water... but from Earth, the base is Fire, Wind, and Water, and so on. The Astral lies between all worlds, which themselves are balanced to various elements.
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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Mark Hall wrote:My dimensional map has Palladium at the center and the elemental planes around the edges... not in a circle, but more in a tetrahedron, such that each has a line of sight on the others... if you put fire at the top, the three corners at the base would be Earth, Wind, and Water... but from Earth, the base is Fire, Wind, and Water, and so on. The Astral lies between all worlds, which themselves are balanced to various elements.


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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

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So who then 'rolls' it lol
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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

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kiralon wrote:So who then 'rolls' it lol


A better question, I think, is who steps on it? :D
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Re: Past Eras of the Palladium World

Unread post by kiralon »

Mark Hall wrote:
kiralon wrote:So who then 'rolls' it lol


A better question, I think, is who steps on it? :D

Its an old one trap ;)
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