Magic blades and balls

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Veknironth
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Magic blades and balls

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, I think I'm correct on this but I figured I'd run it by the collective. If you have a blade which is enchanted, just the blade is enchanted, right? So, you can have the hilt replaced if need be, or if you want something fancier. Most of the blade enhancements talk about the blade being enchanted and not the pommel, crossbar, etc..

If that is true, that raises a few questions.

1. Can you enchant the other parts of the sword? For example, a gem in the pommel that allows you to make yourself invisible or something.

2. Does this work for the ball and chain weapons as well? You enchant the striking end with thunder hammer, but the chain or the handle can be replaced?

-Vek
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Re: Magic blades and balls

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Generally, no. I assume that an enchanted object is enchanted as a whole thing, so while some incidental parts might be changed (leather grips, for example), you can't do much with the rest of the weapon.

However, an add-on (like a gem in the hilt) might be reasonably enchanted separately, or the gem might not be enchanted to start and then get replaced with one that is.
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Veknironth
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Re: Magic blades and balls

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, that's a much better way of stopping people from frankensteining weapons together. However, I can see someone taking a blade to an alchemist and asking to have it enchanted. I suppose the GM/Alchemist can say "It doesn't work that way, and before you ask why - it's magic." For whatever reason you simply CANNOT enchant just a blade/ax-head/flail ball.

-Vek
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Re: Magic blades and balls

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I put some thought into this, of course.

Basically, enchanting an object impacts how it interacts with the real world. Magic cloaks move a little weird. Magic swords move faster, hit harder. A big part of making enchanted weapons work is making sure they work right in the physical world... not just throwing a thunder hammer enchantment on it, but taking the device itself and balancing the forces so, while it might swing differently than another given ball and chain, it's not so different that you have to relearn to use ball-and-chains entirely.

You CAN enchant just the axe-head, but it's going to move weird, and you might need an entirely new WP for it.
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Re: Magic blades and balls

Unread post by kiralon »

I have the entirety of the weapon enchanted as its all one piece, and any significant break stops the magic from working properly. However if he just wanted the blade enchanted using that reasoning and then tried to enchant the hilt separately he'd be told that most enchantments don't work that way, but if he's happy to pay the alchemist to experimental costs the alchemist might find out something new, and if he went and got all the bits needed (which would include fresh dragons blood or the like) I would then let the player roll, and if he was very lucky it would work, otherwise it would be rinse and repeat with different ingredients. But on the whole I wouldn't let it become a normal thing where you just walk into the alchemists shop and order all the powers available in different parts of the weapon.
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Re: Magic blades and balls

Unread post by Reagren Wright »

There are two answers to this. First how do we know what exactly is enchanted in the first place
for this stuff? I mean take Surefinger (Western Empire book). Does the alchemist enchant the
blade, the pommel, the quillion, the grip, etc. Does Double Damage to Evil have to be enchanted
on the blade or can it be on any of the above. In short I don't know nor do I think it matters. The
weapon is enchanted, done, end of story. Now unless you have something like a magic ruby in
the sword which is the source of the sword's power, then that would be a different story.

Now if you insists that different parts of the sword can be enchanted well the question then
becomes does that violate the 3 max power rule? Or can you make each component of the
sword a talisman with three different spells on it. This of course seems to move beyond what
the writers intent was with the rule saying a magic weapon (regardless what) get three magic
powers. Again, you're the G.M. you decide what you want to do, just remember if you take your
game to convention and someone doesn't understand why the sword has 15 different spells
attached to it, they might argue against your ruling. But in the end, its your game.
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Re: Magic blades and balls

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

I generally agree with Mack about what parts can be replaced. There is also what RW brought up. That we don't know which parts hold the enchantments. But then again it is very hard to make generalized statements about this since there too many variables to count for.

And I agree, in principle, with the different parts of a single piece weapon (like a sword or spear) not being able to be independently enchanted.

Arguments about flails and ball and chains can be made. However, I would not let Players be the ones to make such composite/conglomerate magic weapons. For anti-munchkinisum reasons.
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Re: Magic blades and balls

Unread post by Prysus »

Veknironth wrote:Well, I think I'm correct on this but I figured I'd run it by the collective. If you have a blade which is enchanted, just the blade is enchanted, right? So, you can have the hilt replaced if need be, or if you want something fancier. Most of the blade enhancements talk about the blade being enchanted and not the pommel, crossbar, etc..

Greetings and Salutations. That depends. The book discusses a limit of enchantments on the weapon. So there are two ways I could take your argument ...

1: You have up to 3 enchantments on one weapon. So you could have 1 on the blade, and one on the hilt, and one on the pommel, and that would make three for the whole weapon, and no more. In which case, I'd say: Yes, you can do that, though it seems break things down unnecessarily and it would be far easier to just say the weapon is enchanted.

2: You consider the blade one weapon, the pommel one weapon, the hilt one weapon, the crosspiece one weapon, etc. In which case, I'd be very curious to see where you find the Palladium stats for these varying weapons? However, does this mean that you would have to enchant each aspect of the weapon with something like: Indestructible, otherwise only the blade will survive damage? And if we can do this with weapons, does this mean I can do the same with armor? Say, Armor Rating Enhancement and Magic S.D.C. on each part of the armor? So, for example, enchant the chest plate, the gauntlets, the codpiece, the helmet, the greaves, etc. for +1 A.R. and up to 200 S.D.C. for each piece. For the few I just listed, +5 A.R. and +1,000 S.D.C.? Of course, armor has many more pieces than that. What about enchanting each link of the chain mail? :eek:

Veknironth wrote:1. Can you enchant the other parts of the sword? For example, a gem in the pommel that allows you to make yourself invisible or something.

I'd say you can put an enchanted weapon on a sword, but that gem is not a weapon and the enchantment would have nothing to do with it being a weapon. It's like asking if you can wear a talisman over your magic armor? The talisman isn't magic armor, it doesn't have the enchantments of magic armor, and its abilities are irrelevant to the fact its being worn on armor. The gem isn't a magic weapon, it doesn't get the enchantments of magic weapons, and its abilities are irrelevant to the fact you happen to put it on a sword.

Veknironth wrote:2. Does this work for the ball and chain weapons as well? You enchant the striking end with thunder hammer, but the chain or the handle can be replaced?

I'll say the same rules would apply to a ball and chain that would to a sword, at least in this regard. Obviously one is blunt and one is bladed, and there will be some degree of difference.

Veknironth wrote:I suppose the GM/Alchemist can say "It doesn't work that way, and before you ask why - it's magic." For whatever reason you simply CANNOT enchant just a blade/ax-head/flail ball.

-Vek
"It doesn't HAVE to make sense, it's magic!"

About the same amount of sense as saying a weapon can only have 3 enchantments on the weapon in the first place. Come up with the reason for that and the reasoning can extend, and that reasoning will probably also cover why you shouldn't allow things like enchanting each link of chain mail as a separate piece of armor. Thanks for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
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Re: Magic blades and balls

Unread post by RockJock »

I have always done 3 enchantments as 3 on the "weapon" as a whole. Just the way I interpreted it. There are arguments like Castlerake(not exactly standard enchantments), but I never wanted to get into having a sword with each piece enchanted separately. Having a sword with four pieces, all being indestructible, then stacking spells and all just didn't fit in our games, and was never really discussed. That being said, I have allowed enchanted scabbards(things like Turn Holder Invisible, Turn Holder Fire Resistant) and armors with a helmet, or cloak being separately enchanted from the actual armor.
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Re: Magic blades and balls

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Vekniroth wrote:1. Can you enchant the other parts of the sword? For example, a gem in the pommel that allows you to make yourself invisible or something.

I want to say yes as this for a few reasons:
1. Castlerake (D&G pg228-9), while a Rule Weapon can be disassembled and each piece has respective powers. (Aren't Rune Weapons supposed to be single piece items or am I thinking of something else?)
2. There are numerous examples in Lotd2:ET (Quindle AND Hannida AND Cloak of Woodlander pg15, Vampire Slayer pg16-7, Pauper's Crown pg166-7, Hamalred Shield of Therendil pg167, Ring of Yn pg169, Sword of Bone pg176) of items that are magical (but not described as Holy or Rune) that have more than the 3 feature limit (I'm treating unique enchantments as lost/rare and just looking at the number of magical abilities, things that might just be from superior construction I am not counting) or seem to break the rules (giving spell casting abilities for items that can't be placed in weapons/armor). Other books might have additional examples.
3. Psionic Crystal Devices (Island At the Edge of the World), while psionic point to using combinations of simpler devices to create more powerful items (ex Crystal Golem pg102-3, or "Wheels" that combine "Rods" and "Rings" pg89). There are a few objections I can see (its Psionic not magic, its specialized magic construction, etc), but I think the point is that some of the more complex items created using this magical construction technique amount to what you are asking about.

While #1 can probably be put down to something to do with Rune Magic (or even the entity inhabiting the item) and #3 IS a specialized magic form, but #2 points to some type of loophole existing to get additional number of powers instilled as it sets some type of precedent, and this is one possible way to explain how that loop hole works. However while there is a loophole, given the vast majority of general magic items in books AFAIK seem to follow the 3-limit rule it would seem that Alchemists with the know how (and/or willingness) are pretty rare.
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