How advanced were the ancient Dwarves?

[RavenStarver]

Stating out a ruined dwarves hold and I'm wondering just how advanced they were 10,000 years ago. Were they using full Magi-Tech stuff like floating platforms as elevators and trams? We know the elves had flying ships.

[Nekira Sudacne]

There's no real evidence of magic-tech persay and I don't see any reason to put them in. Flying ships is just a more advanced magical version of a flying carpet when you get down to it. bigger and able to carry more cargo, but does not fundamentally alter lifestyle beyond making travel faster a bit faster and more convient--for the wealthy. they are still not cheep.

Dwarves on the other hand mostly went for Rune magic, diabolism and full wizardy stuff. their superweapon for the king was a set of Runic Armor where each individual part of the full plate was it's own rune item and having them all would magnify it's power, it cost an incredible amount and took so long by the time it was finished, the war was already over. That does not sound like a soceity that did magitech at all.

and given that we have no examples of magitech in the books, and I feel magitech kind of goes against the more lovecraftian themes of the homeworld of hte old ones, I'm given to say the correct number of elevators and trams of ancient dwarves is "none"

I am currently running an ancient dwarf suberterrain city and I went the complete opposite route. the thing is they USED to be master wizards, summoners, rune mages and the like but swore it all off when they abused the power. so an ancient hold should be filled to the brim with high fantasy magic.

I made the city rest in a giant cavern carved from miles of solid rock. the ceiling was dotted with crystals that refracted light seeping in through tiny holes from the surface that made it look like stars, and then they used magic to make it a living illusions, with constellations that would move and play. exploring finds ancient lockboxes covered in wards and full of magic items, penthouse palaces for nobles that exist in large pocket dimensions that are timeless, preserving food that can still be eaten now, tens of thousands of years later. I fill it with wonderous arcetexture and magical conviences, self cleanign clothing and furnature, even crude automiton servitors that amount to little more than specalized golems. but the cloest to anything "tech" amounts to just having magical streetlights powered by warlocks who cast Eternal flame onto a permance ward long ago.

It's wonderous, it's magical, but it's not technological. I think Tech would miss the point.

[glitterboy2098]

i can't help but think of the Dwarves from Digger

Digger: "A tunnel ought to be built with hard work, know-how, and the occasional bracing timber. if you try shoring it up with magic, bad things happen. Walls collapse and the entire tunnel gets destabalized, and you never know when it'll be the wrong phase of the moon and the whole thing'll come down"
"Like the dwarves. they'd dig out a mountain, and if the stone wouldn't hold, they'd slap a spell on it. But the only way to keep it stable was to keep packing magic on, and eventually they couldn't hold it together, and they'd leave. you go into an abandoned dwarfholt now, and it's huge. Shafts, galleries, absolutely rotten with magic. you have to go roped together in the dark, and you can't make a noise, or the whole mountain will come down"

[drewkitty ~..~]

Stating out a ruined dwarves hold and I'm wondering just how advanced they were 10,000 years ago. Were they using full Magi-Tech stuff like floating platforms as elevators and trams? We know the elves had flying ships.

They might of been using magic items that appeared to be magic powered tech. But there is no text to support this. You as the GM of your game can include these if you want.

But NS has a point in that they had masters of Rune Magic; or to say Masters of Soul Binding; that the community supported to arm their warriors. Which does imply that they were deficient in their knowledge of physical magics.

[RavenStarver]

Does anyone remember that old point and click adventure game "Indiana Jones and the fate of Atlantis"?
Maybe more like that?

[Razorwing]

Have we seen the most advanced dwarven cities from before the Elf-Dwarf war... or merely the more distant outposts?

Just because we haven't seen advanced magi-tech items of dwarven manufacture doesn't mean that they didn't exist. The Elf-Dwarf War raged for thousands of years and ended some seven thousand years before the present... longer than recorded history on Earth... who's to say how advanced they were before the war drained their empire of most of their resources and technology. There is no way to be sure how much was actually destroyed and how much was merely buried under tons of rubble when the greatest dwarven cities were besieged and collapsed.

That the dwarves of today... at least on Palladium... have forsaken all magic only enhances the loss that would have been their legacy... for they have turned their back on all their ancestors achieved... out of shame for what the last few generations did with that knowledge during the war. Even they no longer know what the ancient dwarves were truly capable of... so how can we rule anything out?

[Saitou Hajime]

The Golems from Dragon Age seem right in the Wheel house of those long forgotten Dwarven Kingdoms. Possible steam engines heated with aform of rune magic perhaps to keep it clean.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Have we seen the most advanced dwarven cities from before the Elf-Dwarf war... or merely the more distant outposts?

Just because we haven't seen advanced magi-tech items of dwarven manufacture doesn't mean that they didn't exist. The Elf-Dwarf War raged for thousands of years and ended some seven thousand years before the present... longer than recorded history on Earth... who's to say how advanced they were before the war drained their empire of most of their resources and technology. There is no way to be sure how much was actually destroyed and how much was merely buried under tons of rubble when the greatest dwarven cities were besieged and collapsed.

That the dwarves of today... at least on Palladium... have forsaken all magic only enhances the loss that would have been their legacy... for they have turned their back on all their ancestors achieved... out of shame for what the last few generations did with that knowledge during the war. Even they no longer know what the ancient dwarves were truly capable of... so how can we rule anything out?

Its logically impossible to prove a negative. We can't prove they didn't, but we have no reason to think they did have magitech, either. Given the total lack of evidence in any of the information we do have, I am comfortable saying they did not have magitech unless a future supplement establishes they did.

No proof someone did not do something is not evidence to assume they did do something, after all.

[Library Ogre]

I think we should also remember that Dwarves of the era were far different than dwarves of today... it wouldn't be "modern dwarves plus magic", but a magic-using culture... just using different magics than the elves were using at the time. For example, my view is that dwarves of the time eschewed steel, viewing it as simply contaminated iron, because pure iron was better for enchanting. The development of steel was a factor that led to the Elf-Dwarf War, because the elves saw it as yet another "magical" technology that the dwarves weren't sharing with them.

I would not be surprised to see SOME magi-tech style things, especially big stuff. You didn't have magical pocket groomers, but a lift that worked through elemental magic, capable of hauling tons of cargo between levels? Sure. Such large works would be rare, but having one to add flavor to a massive dwarven ruin would be fun and interesting, and not out of place for dwarves of the New Kingdom era.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Massive, magical cargo lifts is not really what I would consider magitech. Sure, pullies are "technology" but so are swords, and no one calls a magic sword magitech. I'm not sure where the line between magical medieval tech and "magitech" is, but I think a soft line is mass production of magical versions of basic tech is where it starts

If they had a few massive magical cargo lifts that took years each and were so complex and expensive they were only in the biggest mines, thats a magically powerful society and thats fine. I don't know they did, but they had a few mellenia to work on it, I could buy they built one or two if you wanted to say they did.

If they could put them everywhere cheeply, thats magitech, and I just don't see any reason or evidence for them being that advanced

[kiralon]

The Dwarven Juggernaught landship in Baalgor wastelands was certainly an impressive piece of technology and magic.

[Whiskeyjack]

Have we seen the most advanced dwarven cities from before the Elf-Dwarf war... or merely the more distant outposts?

Just because we haven't seen advanced magi-tech items of dwarven manufacture doesn't mean that they didn't exist. The Elf-Dwarf War raged for thousands of years and ended some seven thousand years before the present... longer than recorded history on Earth... who's to say how advanced they were before the war drained their empire of most of their resources and technology. There is no way to be sure how much was actually destroyed and how much was merely buried under tons of rubble when the greatest dwarven cities were besieged and collapsed.

That the dwarves of today... at least on Palladium... have forsaken all magic only enhances the loss that would have been their legacy... for they have turned their back on all their ancestors achieved... out of shame for what the last few generations did with that knowledge during the war. Even they no longer know what the ancient dwarves were truly capable of... so how can we rule anything out?

Its logically impossible to prove a negative. We can't prove they didn't, but we have no reason to think they did have magitech, either. Given the total lack of evidence in any of the information we do have, I am comfortable saying they did not have magitech unless a future supplement establishes they did.

No proof someone did not do something is not evidence to assume they did do something, after all.

Page 53 of Wolfen Empire.
"They are not living things at all, but some kind of clockwork devices, in the size and shape of men, made of steel, and clearly of Dwarven design."
These came from Dwarven War Barge, thought to have all been destroyed thousands of years ago.
So there is cannon reference to Dwarves having magic tech.

[glitterboy2098]

per Mysteries of magic (pg13)
Elves were masters of spellcasting ("far more advanced than anything known by the dwarves"), and the forerunner of Alchemy. they also had highly developed psionic, priestly, and Warlock contingents. it also says they were the masters of math, the arts, and engineering (specifically calling out aqueducts, bridges, towers ,and castles)

while the dwarves were masters of Rune magic, (saidto be new and unknown to the elves), Diabolism, used warlockery and summoning extensively, and were experts in metallurgy. it also says they were masters of underground engineering..

if any group in PFRPG was going to have "magitech" i'd actually say the Elves would be most likely.. especially after the dwarves taught them Diabolism. given the elves built the flying ships, that would make sense.

Page 53 of Wolfen Empire.
"They are not living things at all, but some kind of clockwork devices, in the size and shape of men, made of steel, and clearly of Dwarven design."
These came from Dwarven War Barge, thought to have all been destroyed thousands of years ago.
So there is cannon reference to Dwarves having magic tech.

where does that say they are magic though? sounds like non-magical clockpunk or steampunk to me. analog robots. the post-war dwarven skill with mundane crafting had to come from somewhere, and it makes sense that they'd be more willing to abandon magic entirely if they already had a lot of knowledge in making non-magical devices and weapons to work with instead.

[kiralon]

per Mysteries of magic (pg13)
Elves were masters of spellcasting ("far more advanced than anything known by the dwarves"), and the forerunner of Alchemy. they also had highly developed psionic, priestly, and Warlock contingents. it also says they were the masters of math, the arts, and engineering (specifically calling out aqueducts, bridges, towers ,and castles)

while the dwarves were masters of Rune magic, (saidto be new and unknown to the elves), Diabolism, used warlockery and summoning extensively, and were experts in metallurgy. it also says they were masters of underground engineering..

if any group in PFRPG was going to have "magitech" i'd actually say the Elves would be most likely.. especially after the dwarves taught them Diabolism. given the elves built the flying ships, that would make sense.

Page 53 of Wolfen Empire.
"They are not living things at all, but some kind of clockwork devices, in the size and shape of men, made of steel, and clearly of Dwarven design."
These came from Dwarven War Barge, thought to have all been destroyed thousands of years ago.
So there is cannon reference to Dwarves having magic tech.

where does that say they are magic though? sounds like non-magical clockpunk or steampunk to me. analog robots. the post-war dwarven skill with mundane crafting had to come from somewhere, and it makes sense that they'd be more willing to abandon magic entirely if they already had a lot of knowledge in making non-magical devices and weapons to work with instead.

The Dwarven Landship is technical and magic, as 4 very strong people can get it moving with handcranks, and 8 people with strength 25 can get it up to 80km/h and this weighs like 25 tons or more (most likely a lot more). If accelerating you can keep cranking for 1 minute per ps or pe, but keeping it at that speed is a lot easier and you can go for like 10 minutes or an hour per ps or pe.
That is definitely a blend of magic and tech.

As far as I can tell (and have played like this) ancient dwarves very pre elf dwarf wars time were mote technological but would incorporate magic into their creations just like any other material if it was appropriate, however the elf/dwarf wars was their decline and corruption into evil mind consuming magic that mostly held the dwarf race in thrall, and the dwarves were like "I'll make just one more rune weapon and this one will turn out to be the one that will destroy the elves" (then sacrifices another being to rune magic creation).

[Whiskeyjack]

per Mysteries of magic (pg13)
Elves were masters of spellcasting ("far more advanced than anything known by the dwarves"), and the forerunner of Alchemy. they also had highly developed psionic, priestly, and Warlock contingents. it also says they were the masters of math, the arts, and engineering (specifically calling out aqueducts, bridges, towers ,and castles)

while the dwarves were masters of Rune magic, (saidto be new and unknown to the elves), Diabolism, used warlockery and summoning extensively, and were experts in metallurgy. it also says they were masters of underground engineering..

if any group in PFRPG was going to have "magitech" i'd actually say the Elves would be most likely.. especially after the dwarves taught them Diabolism. given the elves built the flying ships, that would make sense.

Page 53 of Wolfen Empire.
"They are not living things at all, but some kind of clockwork devices, in the size and shape of men, made of steel, and clearly of Dwarven design."
These came from Dwarven War Barge, thought to have all been destroyed thousands of years ago.
So there is cannon reference to Dwarves having magic tech.

where does that say they are magic though? sounds like non-magical clockpunk or steampunk to me. analog robots. the post-war dwarven skill with mundane crafting had to come from somewhere, and it makes sense that they'd be more willing to abandon magic entirely if they already had a lot of knowledge in making non-magical devices and weapons to work with instead.

They're clockwork fighting machines that operate without anyone inside. Just clockwork can't accomplish this, they would be limited to a standard set of moves that would just keep repeating. If they are a truly autonomous fighting machine as described, they have to have magic to guide them.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Lost Dwarven Magic Technology....sound like someone has been playing a lot of skyrim lately lol. I don't have enough info to formulate an argument for or against, but I like the idea of it. I mean techno-wizardry had to come from somewhere didn't it? I guess if I were going to make up something here on the spot I'd say the Dwarven Magitech should be for LARGE (and I do mean Large) industrial scale mining and metal works or city sized (or city to city) mass transit/public works only. I don't think there would be personal/consumer level magitech.

[RavenStarver]

Have we seen the most advanced dwarven cities from before the Elf-Dwarf war... or merely the more distant outposts?

Just because we haven't seen advanced magi-tech items of dwarven manufacture doesn't mean that they didn't exist. The Elf-Dwarf War raged for thousands of years and ended some seven thousand years before the present... longer than recorded history on Earth... who's to say how advanced they were before the war drained their empire of most of their resources and technology. There is no way to be sure how much was actually destroyed and how much was merely buried under tons of rubble when the greatest dwarven cities were besieged and collapsed.

That the dwarves of today... at least on Palladium... have forsaken all magic only enhances the loss that would have been their legacy... for they have turned their back on all their ancestors achieved... out of shame for what the last few generations did with that knowledge during the war. Even they no longer know what the ancient dwarves were truly capable of... so how can we rule anything out?

Its logically impossible to prove a negative. We can't prove they didn't, but we have no reason to think they did have magitech, either. Given the total lack of evidence in any of the information we do have, I am comfortable saying they did not have magitech unless a future supplement establishes they did.

No proof someone did not do something is not evidence to assume they did do something, after all.

Page 53 of Wolfen Empire.
"They are not living things at all, but some kind of clockwork devices, in the size and shape of men, made of steel, and clearly of Dwarven design."
These came from Dwarven War Barge, thought to have all been destroyed thousands of years ago.
So there is cannon reference to Dwarves having magic tech.

Oh shoot! That confirms it then, either the Rifts have begun, or ancient Dwarves did use at least a unique type of Golemancy.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Have we seen the most advanced dwarven cities from before the Elf-Dwarf war... or merely the more distant outposts?

Just because we haven't seen advanced magi-tech items of dwarven manufacture doesn't mean that they didn't exist. The Elf-Dwarf War raged for thousands of years and ended some seven thousand years before the present... longer than recorded history on Earth... who's to say how advanced they were before the war drained their empire of most of their resources and technology. There is no way to be sure how much was actually destroyed and how much was merely buried under tons of rubble when the greatest dwarven cities were besieged and collapsed.

That the dwarves of today... at least on Palladium... have forsaken all magic only enhances the loss that would have been their legacy... for they have turned their back on all their ancestors achieved... out of shame for what the last few generations did with that knowledge during the war. Even they no longer know what the ancient dwarves were truly capable of... so how can we rule anything out?

Its logically impossible to prove a negative. We can't prove they didn't, but we have no reason to think they did have magitech, either. Given the total lack of evidence in any of the information we do have, I am comfortable saying they did not have magitech unless a future supplement establishes they did.

No proof someone did not do something is not evidence to assume they did do something, after all.

Page 53 of Wolfen Empire.
"They are not living things at all, but some kind of clockwork devices, in the size and shape of men, made of steel, and clearly of Dwarven design."
These came from Dwarven War Barge, thought to have all been destroyed thousands of years ago.
So there is cannon reference to Dwarves having magic tech.

Oh shoot! That confirms it then, either the Rifts have begun, or ancient Dwarves did use at least a unique type of Golemancy.

Not really. As I said, clockwork golems are not really what one would consider magitech, that or we are using very different definitions of what qualifies as magitech. Anything is tech, even a sword, so it really depends on how advanced the tech has to be before it gets called magitech. Gear golem is ancient enogh I would just call that a variant of a regular golem. We don't even know if they are much more useful or easier to make in large quantities than a regular golem.

[glitterboy2098]

Note that clockpunk, much like steampunk, tends to fudge or ignore realistic limits in favor of fun. That is half the coolness of it, and analog computer hardware is actually feasible if you can get miniaturization down small enough. So there is no automatic assumption that unfeasible in real life means magic.

And the idea of a dwarven craftsman working years with a jewelers loop and tiny tools crafting microscopic gears for a complex Babbage engine analog computer fits them well.

And even if there is magic involved, they wouldn't have to be golems. The body might be clockwork for example, but the 'brain' might well be a rune item housing the soul and mind of an old dwarf or a slave, or something.

[Library Ogre]

Lost Dwarven Magic Technology....sound like someone has been playing a lot of skyrim lately lol. I don't have enough info to formulate an argument for or against, but I like the idea of it. I mean techno-wizardry had to come from somewhere didn't it? I guess if I were going to make up something here on the spot I'd say the Dwarven Magitech should be for LARGE (and I do mean Large) industrial scale mining and metal works or city sized (or city to city) mass transit/public works only. I don't think there would be personal/consumer level magitech.

I kind of like the thought that Techno-Wizardry started as a kluge... "****, our electrical engine is broken. Harry, can you magic us up something that will work?" And so Harry tried to fix the engine and made it kind of work with the spells he had on hand.

[Whiskeyjack]

Not really. As I said, clockwork golems are not really what one would consider magitech, that or we are using very different definitions of what qualifies as magitech. Anything is tech, even a sword, so it really depends on how advanced the tech has to be before it gets called magitech. Gear golem is ancient enogh I would just call that a variant of a regular golem. We don't even know if they are much more useful or easier to make in large quantities than a regular golem.

So what would you consider magictech?

[Library Ogre]

So what would you consider magictech?

I think this is the key question... depending on one's definition, you're going to consider different things "magitech".

For me, Magitech is magical devices which emulate physical technology... a magically-run elevator is magitech, while a levitation pad is not. A spell-created golem is not magitech, but an articulated clockwork golem might well be. It does not require the devices to be common, though it doesn't preclude it, either.

[glitterboy2098]

funny, i would count some of those examples the opposite way. to me, an elevator using spells to augment normal mechanical stuff would not be magitech. but a levitation pad would be, since it is using magic directly to preform a role normally filled by mundane technology. a Golem might be magitech or might not, depending on how directly the magic is involved in animating it.