Wolfen vs the East

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Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

I was reading through several threads on this topic from over the years.
Most people always seem to come out in favour of the humans walking right over the Wolfen Empire, mainly due to dubious claims of magical superiority and the humans somehow enlisting the aid of the coyles (who they can't tell apart from Wolfen to begin with).
I wanted to get a better feel for the two sides, so I went through the books to look at the sizes of their respective armies.
This isn't too easy as there are MANY gaps in numbers. Some I could estimate, others are just unknowns.

For the Eastern Territory I added up the military forces of all the city states, ignoring the militias from the small towns. I included the entire population of Northolme. The Dominion Army I could only estimate from the mention of 14 armies with 6400 troops each.
Total for the Eastern Territories: 179,600.

For the Wolfen I had to guestimate quite a few spots. The Ursa Rex Tribe just says their army is big enough to be considered a National Army, so I used 75,000 for them. Other tribes have no mention of troop sizes. Not included of course are the many Coyle hordes, numerous orc, ogre and troll clans and the many Kankoran. With all out war with the East, I would expect these groups to swell the army by at least an additional 250-300,000 troops.
For the Imperial Army, I used the 16 legions each with over 5,000 troops, and used 5,500 for the amount. The secondary army simply states that it masses up to a quarter of a million troops.
Total for the Wolfen Empire: 872,000!

Almost 5 times the size of the Eastern Territories. Each side would have additional troops they could pull on, but I think the Wolfen would have a similar magnitude of 5 over them for these troops as well.
Going by these numbers, even with magic, I can't see a possible way for the East to seriously threaten the Wolfen Empire, even with the Western Empire sticking their fingers in. As it is, the Southern Territories would be hard pressed to commit to war with the Wolfen, and any serious draw of troops from that area would probably send a wave of non humans flowing North from the Old Kingdom to take advantage of the opportunity.

I always knew the Wolfen army was big, but I didn't think there was that big of a difference in size between the two nations.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Consider the logistical problems of the Wolfen, as well, though. While they have a huge number of troops available, they're also going to face crippling supply lines, and many of their settlements are as beseiged as the Southern Territories.

Generally, I think the Wolfen have a better position, mind you. One for one, their mundane troops are more than a match for almost everything the East can throw at them, and while the East has more cavalry, the Wolfen aren't bereft of it (counting Havea and the Centaurs). At a bet, the border will eventually be settled at the Bruu-ga Belimars and the River that runs north to the Algorian Sea... it's a highly convenient natural feature to mark the border, and the Wolfen have significant amounts of space they can settle without pushing into the Eastern Territories... they can settle into a defensive position at that line and hold out with relatively few troops, while pushing beyond that will be expensive for either side.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

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The way they have it written up, the Disputed Lands are effectively a death trap for whoever tries to take it permanently by force. The best bet for either side is to slowly colonize the area, which the East seems to be doing eagerly. I think the colonies North of Lopan as well as Southwatch are kind of walking up to the Wolfen and slapping them in the face. They're not so much in the disputed land as right in the Wolfen Empire. I've always found it interesting that Southwatch was even allowed to be established.
The other issue for the East, is the Dominion Army, which is stated as being sub par at best. A full half of their troops come from there.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

it is likely that prior to the 'romanization' of the Wolfen a few generations earlier, the wolfen would have had a lot lower numbers they could effective field (no real organization, limited allied races, virtually no logistics to speak of, etc)

the Eastern Territories seem to think in setting that they can win a war with the Wolfen.. it is possible that while they have noticed the better tactical organization and equipment the wolfen now field, they've overlooked the immense advantages the unification of the tribes, and other regional entities, into a centralized Empire gives. since such advantages would only really be evident in a full blown war, as opposed to border skirmishes, this would make sense. (and with no real comparable entity in the Eastern Territories, and the closest human dominated equivalent all the way on the other side of the wolfen in the western empire.. it is unlikely they'll put two and two together any time soon without a war)

the Wolfen Imperial Army may well be the scale of the army the wolfen could field before they unified and romanized, and with the kind of ecclectic warbands level of equipment and organization the wolfen would have back then, the Knights and levies of the Feudal Eastern territories would fair reasonably well. the wolfen would of course do a lot of damage with raids and such, but would be hard pressed to deal with castles and in a stand up fight would likely get trounced. (much like the Vikings in real life, which pre-imperial Wolfen greatly resemble)

the new Wolfen army is not exactly massed in one place, and most of that figure you came to is, as you admit, including the secondary army (which IIRC is not a standing army, at least not all of it) and the various tribal fighting forces, which are also not likely to be a standing force. so to the Eastern territories, the wolfen have new armor and weapons, and a new way of fighting. it won't look obvious that they've got a massive army they can call up on.
once the war starts up, the Wolfen mobilize.. and the eastern forces are in real trouble.


that said.. the East could always step up conscription, to get lots of troops into the field. especially if they can spin the conflict into something people actually want to join, the way that The Crusades in real life were.

if the Wolfen take a limited offensive stance (defending their own territory and making little to no attempts to conquer parts of the east beyond a few strategic points) i could see the East holding on despite the losses, and making a bit of headway.. a war with the wolfen might well be an impetus to actually develop a quasi-imperial structure of their own, for the logistical and strategic advantages if nothing else. and if the first round of fights go badly, and the war peters off.. well a 2nd one a few years later would be inevitable, as they go to 'reclaim their lost land and avenge their fallen brothers", etc. and a 3rd. and a 4th. and a 12th. like the crusades i could see it becoming a driving force behind the military side of their culture.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by kiralon »

The western empire has never been fond of the monster races and might find the wolfen fighting the easterners a good enough reason to go to war themselves as well, and the western army is huge.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

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Speaking of crippling supply lines, the WE would have the worst of it when it comes to that. They would also potentially run into issues with Bizantium and Timiro who would not like that large of an army mobilizing. While Bizantium would probably stick to support roles, Timiro would very conceivably mobilize against the Western army marching past their doorstep, as would the Old Kingdom hordes. The Middle Kingdoms would likely take the opportunity to revolt as well. I honestly think the West has too many issues of its own to deal with to mount an effective offensive against anyone.
I still think the Wolfen would have a pretty easy time with supply. The Algorian Sea and the longboats would make for an easy crossing of supplies to a beach head set up on the Southern shore. The entire Wolfen Empire living on the Northern shore would allow them the easiest chance of holding the entire sea against foreign navies.
I'll have to flip through WE again to refresh on their armies.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by kiralon »

Whiskeyjack wrote:Speaking of crippling supply lines, the WE would have the worst of it when it comes to that. They would also potentially run into issues with Bizantium and Timiro who would not like that large of an army mobilizing. While Bizantium would probably stick to support roles, Timiro would very conceivably mobilize against the Western army marching past their doorstep, as would the Old Kingdom hordes. The Middle Kingdoms would likely take the opportunity to revolt as well. I honestly think the West has too many issues of its own to deal with to mount an effective offensive against anyone.
I still think the Wolfen would have a pretty easy time with supply. The Algorian Sea and the longboats would make for an easy crossing of supplies to a beach head set up on the Southern shore. The entire Wolfen Empire living on the Northern shore would allow them the easiest chance of holding the entire sea against foreign navies.
I'll have to flip through WE again to refresh on their armies.

It would be much easier for the westerners just to teleport a few dozen summoners in to summon a heap of demons near population centres and not control them, that would cause massive issues for the wolfen, and if it came to the war I think the imperial army would march east first and crush the middle kingdoms first, but the magic power of the western empire would do crap loads of damage. I think it would take timiro, the eastern territories, LotSW and the wolfen to stop the western empire, and the western empire have enough in the way of magic users to make supply lines much less an issue. Portals, teleportation etc, not to mention the priests doing divine interventions to cast teleport at high levels so many tons of goods can be moved at the same time.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

How would divine interventions work when both sides worship the same gods? Unless it's a god of chaos they're either going to have to pick sides or deny both.
The WE could be the catalyst to end hostilities between wolfen an ET to join forces against the West.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by flatline »

Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't a wolfen soldier require 3 to 4 times as much food as a human?

How can the wolfen empire possibly feed such a large army?

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Re: Wolfen vs the East

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The same way they feed themselves regularly. The only difference is they need to transport the food to a different location.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Library Ogre »

flatline wrote:Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't a wolfen soldier require 3 to 4 times as much food as a human?

How can the wolfen empire possibly feed such a large army?

--flatline


As the old saw goes, "Amateurs talk about strategy, professionals talk about logistics". :)

The Wolfen empire DOES have logistics issues, but they aren't any worse than you'd see in a force with significant cavalry assets. And I think these issues are made somewhat less because the wolfen (and the East, make no mistake) do integrate magic-users into their army. A 1st level Earth Warlock can get you a crop of spring wheat in two months, instead of the four it normally takes. If they're an Earth and Water Warlock, they might be able to do that AND dowse out new water sources... and, at later levels, purify water you find to make it potable. Even low-level summoners can do fantastic things for logistics. Bring a cow with you. Kill the cow to draw Summon Animals. Sacrifice some small local animal. Summon another cow. Sacrifice that cow to summon another cow. Sacrifice that cow to summon another cow. Repeat till fed.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Reagren Wright »

Whiskeyjack wrote:The way they have it written up, the Disputed Lands are effectively a death trap for whoever tries to take it permanently by force. The best bet for either side is to slowly colonize the area, which the East seems to be doing eagerly. I think the colonies North of Lopan as well as Southwatch are kind of walking up to the Wolfen and slapping them in the face. They're not so much in the disputed land as right in the Wolfen Empire. I've always found it interesting that Southwatch was even allowed to be established.
The other issue for the East, is the Dominion Army, which is stated as being sub par at best. A full half of their troops come from there.


All I can say is those "colonies north of Lopan" have a good chance of ending up
belonging to Lopan. And the people there might be a tad more greatful to the Wolfen
and Bizantium than the Eastern Territory and Lopan. Guess we'll find out either this
year or next. As for the Dominion Army there maybe some issues with its troops
loyalty, but only time will tell.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

flatline wrote:Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't a wolfen soldier require 3 to 4 times as much food as a human?

How can the wolfen empire possibly feed such a large army?

--flatline


yes but on the flipside, they are also stronger than the average human (and have allied races even more so) making it easier to cart around supplies via sheer manpower, and the Wolfen Empire enjoys many of the same benefits of access to pack-animals and carts that the East does.

the Empire is also decidedly less fractured organizationally speaking when it comes to their army, so it should be easier for them to organize an actual logistics web. and they appear to be doing so before the conflict begins, unlike the East.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, carting around the supplies is at least one step behind acquiring those supplies.

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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

it is likely that both sides would rely on foraging for major campaigns. most armies IRL of equivalent technological and sociological levels did. the Romans had a basic logistical system in place though, making use of their "in kind" tax system to keep the legions supplied with a certain level with staples like grain, oil, etc. some things like fresh meat and veggies they usually had to obtain via local contracts though, in garrison, while in the field they relied on foraging/hunting.

i could see the Wolfen having a similar system in place. the Eastern feudal states i could see having a simple version of such logistics in place (supporting a garrison is fairly easy under a feudal system) but with no centralized organization and no real system in place to support a large standing army outside the feudal ties, they would find it harder to mobilize, and would be far more reliant on forage and looting to support themselves when deployed.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

The Algorian Sea would be one of the largest assets for the Wolfen. The ready supply of seal, whale and fish would go along way to providing the protein needed to keep the army going. The only Eastern power there is Southwatch. A naval blockade would have a serious impact on them, effectively cutting them off from reinforcements that didn't have to cross the entire disputed land by foot or through massive magical resources.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by kiralon »

You wouldn't want to be relying on fishing when moving an army about, well not directly, you wouldn't want it preserved and in barrels. I wonder how a wolfen army would smell after eating pickled herring for 5 months.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

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Smoked or salted all the way. It keeps for a long time and travels well.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

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ideally smoked and salted. or given the norse influence in pre-imperial wolfen.. salted, Dried, and soaked in lye.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by zyanitevp »

kiralon wrote:You wouldn't want to be relying on fishing when moving an army about, well not directly, you wouldn't want it preserved and in barrels. I wonder how a wolfen army would smell after eating pickled herring for 5 months.

The advantage is you could use the herring to cut down the largest tree in the forest.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

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I wouldn't bother looking for that herring though unless it was red.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

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zyanitevp wrote:
kiralon wrote:You wouldn't want to be relying on fishing when moving an army about, well not directly, you wouldn't want it preserved and in barrels. I wonder how a wolfen army would smell after eating pickled herring for 5 months.

The advantage is you could use the herring to cut down the largest tree in the forest.


I'm pretty sure I've heard that herring are better suited to cutting down shrubbery.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Saitou Hajime »

I never really understood the Disputed zone's push from either side really the Wolven Empire has huge tracks of land they can develop just build a hard border and be done with it.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

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Mark Hall wrote:While they have a huge number of troops available, they're also going to face crippling supply lines

Food supply would seem like a major issue. From 309-312 I'm not seeing mention of how much they eat, but if we were to base it on other races... Wolfen are 250-500 pounds and 6+1d4 height...

305-6: Ogres eat 3x the typical healthy husky human warrior, weigh 250-500, 6+1d6 height
306-7: Trolls eat 5x the average human adult, weigh 300-700, 8+1d6 height

Ogres seem the closest to go on. Wolfen have a PS 3 lower and a PE 6 lower and a speed 1D6 higher, so that could represent some metabolic differences in spite of the same weight range. I'm not sure how the Ogres' greater average/maximum height factors in, I figure they're just sometimes lankier.

Maybe some of that wolfen weight is fur... there isn't any "of muscle and sinew" like for the Coyles... you'd think they'd have some resistance to cold temperatures but I don't see it mentioned :(

We could low-ball it and say Wolfen only need 2x instead of 3x, but that's still a pretty big disadvantage. You can do a lot more with 2 human warriors than with 1 wolfen warrior.

Another problem with Wolfen, tactically speaking, is their altruism. They "Provide aid and protection to all who request it". Consistent with their tendency towards principled/aberrant. This would cause problems for them because while a human army would deny beggars/refugees, a wolfen army would not. This would put an additional strain on their resources above and beyond their likely need for more food than humans do to their ogre-like size and weight.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

The average wolf (say 130lbs) requires under 4lbs of meat a day to stay healthy. 2 to 3x that when breeding. So the average wolfen would need 8 to 16lbs of food per day, assuming that their physiology is similar to a wolf.
Now that you mention it, the Wolfen seem tame in comparison to figuring out the hordes of orcs, ogres and trolls that populate the Old Kingdom. I'm pretty sure they aren't big on farming, which brings up serious questions on how they survive.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Saitou Hajime »

Whiskeyjack wrote:The average wolf (say 130lbs) requires under 4lbs of meat a day to stay healthy. 2 to 3x that when breeding. So the average wolfen would need 8 to 16lbs of food per day, assuming that their physiology is similar to a wolf.
Now that you mention it, the Wolfen seem tame in comparison to figuring out the hordes of orcs, ogres and trolls that populate the Old Kingdom. I'm pretty sure they aren't big on farming, which brings up serious questions on how they survive.

Nomad hearding I figure, though it not like they can't be farmers.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Glistam »

The Wolfen have farms and are farmers. They are humanoids with wolf features, not wolves walking on two legs.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

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I think he was replying to my comment on the orcs/ogres.
They just don't seem like a farming type society, and there isn't too much info on settlements for raising in the old kingdom.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by smkeyes »

The other big factor stopping both powers is the seasonal period you will have for open warfare. Three to five months for fighting. Now by the time winter sets in you will need three to five mothers of supplies built up for any troops that are not pulled back so that can last the winter.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

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I think the Wolfen would have a minor advantage in this area. With their size and fur, as long as they have the supplies, they can fight with only a minor hindrance during the change of seasons. Knee deep snow that would trip up humans would only be shin deep to a Wolfen. It would definitely take a lot of planning to ensure they are adequately provisioned for it.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Saitou Hajime »

I seriously doubt even the wolven would want to run a protracted campaign with winter combat as the norm. I see a strike at a location using the suprise as a possiblity, but not protracted campaign, which lets face it whould only lead to seiges anywasys because the humans would have hold up.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

I wasn't thinking full campaign, more hitting camps and small forts as the humans retreat for winter.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by smkeyes »

Whiskeyjack even in it was a small raid in winter would be quite an undertaking both for the wolven and humans. With an a fast speed of six miles per day it would take 10 days to cover a short 60 miles. To hit your raid target. Now retreating back to your own base would be another 10 days but most likely to be closer to another 20 days since your injured would be slowing your travels down. The investment of resources and the damage do to battle and the elements would most likely not be worth the risk.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

I wasn't talking about winter. I was talking about those periods of early snowfall in the late fall. A heavy snowfall will slow down humans much more than wolfen, ogres and trolls. Giving them an advantage over any human troops still deployed.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Axelmania »

Orcs are highest population, goblins second, where do ogres and trolls fall though? Anyone know what pg to read for the numbers?

Ogres would probably be great animal farmers since every single one has animal husbandry. Great hunters too, since all are falconers.

Trolls like to eat gnomes. Maybe they are the explanation to why gnomes havent taken over the world with their superior space efficiency.

I am prone to assuming orcs all run pig farms due to playing Warcraft in the 90s. Palladium style though, I think their blood scent would make them excellent hunters. They could find and eat wounded animals.

A natural synergy could exist: ogres send their falcons to rake animals with talons and draw blood and then orcs track down the prey and they split the kill.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by RockJock »

Everyone should fear the Gnomish Fury.

The Western Empire getting involved would make it a world war. If my game went this way I think the WE would have a civil war pop up.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

RockJock wrote:Everyone should fear the Gnomish Fury.

The Western Empire getting involved would make it a world war. If my game went this way I think the WE would have a civil war pop up.


I think they would have a civil war with the Middle Kingdoms, but I don't think it would last long. It would probably spark an invasion along the Old Kingdom frontier though, which would be another story if the rumours of 500,000+ monster race army is true.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

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It would be a good time for the WE to get tied up.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Axelmania »

Wooden winning would be good for the world. They are a people of better morals than humans. Natural leaders.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Saitou Hajime »

Axelmania wrote:Wooden winning would be good for the world. They are a people of better morals than humans. Natural leaders.


One that is a matter of opinion, two the way there government fuction should greatly hamper quickly replying to anything, especially do to communication. Republic systems over a empires never feel natural.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Axelmania »

They seem more helpful and less racist. Politics would naturally move toward a beneficial one.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Aku-Arkaine »

Looking at things historically, The republican system of the wolfen versus the confederation system of the East gives a distinct advantage to the wolfen. Just looking at the conflicts between the Romans and the Greeks proves this out. The same is shown by the Romans versus the Etruscans and various other early Italian states. Carthage had a more centralized government, but even it still failed twice against the Republican Roman system. I'm not saying that a Republic is the absolute best political system, but I am saying that history has shown it to be advantageous.

Militarily the Roman system did much better than its neighbors as well. It has been proven time and again that the citizen soldier just fights better than a levy of serfs or slaves. The citizen soldier had a vested interest in not only victory, but also in maintaining the status quo where they have an overwhelming amount of personal freedoms that a serf or slave does not. Modern history gives us a perfect example of this in Vietnam. A superiorly equipped, but morally inferior U.S. force of conscripts lost to the North Vietnamese. The Vietnamese had a vested interest in winning their freedom of choice to live under the government chosen by a popular referendum, a government that we tried to deny them just because we disagreed with their choice. And a conscript is no better than a levied serf or slave.

Numbers, equipment quality, logistics...these things matter, but morale has been said to be as of 10 to 1. An exaggeration but not as much of one as you might think. When it comes to the morale of the fighting forces of the Wolfen and the East, the Wolfen are already winning. Add in a political system proven to better support its troops, and a quantitative advantage as supposed by Whiskeyjack, and I can tell you hands down whom will win this conflict. It sure as hell won't be the East.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Saitou Hajime »

Aku-Arkaine wrote:Looking at things historically, The republican system of the wolfen versus the confederation system of the East gives a distinct advantage to the wolfen. Just looking at the conflicts between the Romans and the Greeks proves this out. The same is shown by the Romans versus the Etruscans and various other early Italian states. Carthage had a more centralized government, but even it still failed twice against the Republican Roman system. I'm not saying that a Republic is the absolute best political system, but I am saying that history has shown it to be advantageous.

Militarily the Roman system did much better than its neighbors as well. It has been proven time and again that the citizen soldier just fights better than a levy of serfs or slaves. The citizen soldier had a vested interest in not only victory, but also in maintaining the status quo where they have an overwhelming amount of personal freedoms that a serf or slave does not. Modern history gives us a perfect example of this in Vietnam. A superiorly equipped, but morally inferior U.S. force of conscripts lost to the North Vietnamese. The Vietnamese had a vested interest in winning their freedom of choice to live under the government chosen by a popular referendum, a government that we tried to deny them just because we disagreed with their choice. And a conscript is no better than a levied serf or slave.

Numbers, equipment quality, logistics...these things matter, but morale has been said to be as of 10 to 1. An exaggeration but not as much of one as you might think. When it comes to the morale of the fighting forces of the Wolfen and the East, the Wolfen are already winning. Add in a political system proven to better support its troops, and a quantitative advantage as supposed by Whiskeyjack, and I can tell you hands down whom will win this conflict. It sure as hell won't be the East.


I disagree given the Wolven empire is much bigger than Rome was ever at the Republic stage. There is a huge amount of wilderness in most of the provences of the Empire add in the protectorite some of which have unfriendly people in them and a huge amount of frontier. The amount of distence need to trave is large from the front to the Captial [yes magic helps]. To be honest there nothing in the Disputed Territory that the Wolven need build the Wolven equivalent of Hadrian's wall and be done with it.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

Saitou Hajime wrote:I disagree given the Wolven empire is much bigger than Rome was ever at the Republic stage. There is a huge amount of wilderness in most of the provences of the Empire add in the protectorite some of which have unfriendly people in them and a huge amount of frontier. The amount of distence need to trave is large from the front to the Captial [yes magic helps]. To be honest there nothing in the Disputed Territory that the Wolven need build the Wolven equivalent of Hadrian's wall and be done with it.


A wall would be pretty cool along the border. The Wolfen do consider the disputed zone to be their territory though, even though the books seem to describe it as being fairly devoid of canines.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

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Saitou Hajime wrote:I disagree given the Wolven empire is much bigger than Rome was ever at the Republic stage. There is a huge amount of wilderness in most of the provences of the Empire add in the protectorite some of which have unfriendly people in them and a huge amount of frontier. The amount of distence need to trave is large from the front to the Captial [yes magic helps]. To be honest there nothing in the Disputed Territory that the Wolven need build the Wolven equivalent of Hadrian's wall and be done with it.


Which is why I tend to think they'll stop at the river north of the Bruu-ga Belimars... it's a convenient natural barrier that they can supplement with a fairly ready supply of natural materials to build an artificial barrier. The easy method is to fortify the river, build your wall, and withdraw beyond the river. More difficult, but more advantageous, is to take the far shore of the river, fortify that, build your barrier, and keep the river within your control... though that potentially opens you up to a rear assault, with marine troops going upriver to assault your wall.
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

I think it's just due to the lack of a proper book, but there should definitely be a fortified city at the mouth of the river.
Not to mention that the Inland Sea is mysteriously devoid of Wolfen settlements. If they plan to hold the Empire against humans, they need to have a force to stop the West from landing on the doorstep as well. I think I just came up with a new idea for my campaign. :)
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Aku-Arkaine »

Saitou Hajime wrote:I disagree given the Wolven empire is much bigger than Rome was ever at the Republic stage. There is a huge amount of wilderness in most of the provences of the Empire add in the protectorite some of which have unfriendly people in them and a huge amount of frontier. The amount of distence need to trave is large from the front to the Captial [yes magic helps]. To be honest there nothing in the Disputed Territory that the Wolven need build the Wolven equivalent of Hadrian's wall and be done with it.


If you look at a map of Rome in 43 B.C. you can see that most of Gaul and the Iberian Peninsula were part of the Republic already. This is a huge amount of wilderness, as you said, and when you add in clients there is very little that is missing from the future empire. Rome was able to control this, and the distance from the capital to Gibraltar or Normandy is a pretty fair distance. The first few emperors mostly spent time bringing client states into Rome proper, not conquering wilderness. The largest conquest of the imperial period was Germania, an area comparable with the disputed lands. Find a nice river, fortify the hell out of it, and the East wouldn't have a chance to push into Wolfen territory. And where there isn't a river...you build Hadrian's Wall (best idea of this entire thread).
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

I've already started working this into my campaign. The group will either be sent to the construction site, or to the Wriunn Sea to help with the development of a port city there. Both actions will provoke both the East and West and potentially heighten aggression, but give far more security. It's time for the Empire to brace for war!
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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Saitou Hajime »

Aku-Arkaine wrote:
Saitou Hajime wrote:I disagree given the Wolven empire is much bigger than Rome was ever at the Republic stage. There is a huge amount of wilderness in most of the provences of the Empire add in the protectorite some of which have unfriendly people in them and a huge amount of frontier. The amount of distence need to trave is large from the front to the Captial [yes magic helps]. To be honest there nothing in the Disputed Territory that the Wolven need build the Wolven equivalent of Hadrian's wall and be done with it.


If you look at a map of Rome in 43 B.C. you can see that most of Gaul and the Iberian Peninsula were part of the Republic already. This is a huge amount of wilderness, as you said, and when you add in clients there is very little that is missing from the future empire. Rome was able to control this, and the distance from the capital to Gibraltar or Normandy is a pretty fair distance. The first few emperors mostly spent time bringing client states into Rome proper, not conquering wilderness. The largest conquest of the imperial period was Germania, an area comparable with the disputed lands. Find a nice river, fortify the hell out of it, and the East wouldn't have a chance to push into Wolfen territory. And where there isn't a river...you build Hadrian's Wall (best idea of this entire thread).


You mean after 20 years of Ceaser being in some kind of power? I don't have realitive sizes avalible, the areas of the republic save north western Gaul are also highly civilized compared to the Northern Wilderness. Further the Romans build roads everywhere which helps greatly.
Subjugator wrote:I got my first job at age 12 (maybe 11, but I think 12) and worked more or less continuously until today. I had to so I could eat properly. Doing so as a kid detracted from my educational experience, which was bad enough to begin with . . .

Gingrich is wrong.

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Re: Wolfen vs the East

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

Saitou Hajime wrote:You mean after 20 years of Ceaser being in some kind of power? I don't have realitive sizes avalible, the areas of the republic save north western Gaul are also highly civilized compared to the Northern Wilderness. Further the Romans build roads everywhere which helps greatly.


That's another thing that is never covered in the Wolfen Empire book. Do the Wolfen build advanced road systems? In my campaign they do. Their endeavour has only recently begun, but they are advancing quickly to connect large areas of the Empire with easily traveled roads.
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