Wolfen having pups

[RavenStarver]

Just a quick question that came up in my group. How long would it take a female Wolfen to have kids? Like how long is the pregnancy?

[drewkitty ~..~]

there is no text about this.

PB tends to leave out breeding issues, except for when talking about which humans can breed with which other humans.

[smkeyes]

9 months same as a human is the easiest way to handle it.

[Whiskeyjack]

Personally, I`d split the difference between a wolf and human. About 5.75 months.

[Aku-Arkaine]

The other thing to consider is if they have litters like wolves. If the do, that would be a good reason for their expansion policies.

[Axelmania]

1D4 young after 8 months gestation, sexually mature at 13 years old, RCB p 86. Strangely this info doesn't appear to be present in the Palladium RPG or PFRPG 2nd Edition.

I can't find this for Coyles/Kankoran but would probably use the same data.

Intelligent alien canines like the Wolfen can sometimes breed with intelligent mutant dogs like Psi-Hounds, especially if their breed is wolf, and Wolfen can also breed healthy offspring with Coyles and Kankoran (RCBp28 'A Note on Biology') but are socially conditioned not to do so, they're considered unwelcome rogues in Wolfen society.

Dog Boys also produce batches of 1D4 young but only need 5.5-6 months to gestate and are sexually mature at 3 years old (CS delays until 5 for emotional maturity, Lone Star pg 26) so they're probably a bigger threat to humanity than Wolfen in terms of reproduction, especially since their psi and small size would make them better all-around and more capable.

[flatline]

Evolutionarily speaking, Wolfen, Coyles, and Kankoran probably gave up the ability to commonly have more than 1 or 2 babies at a time when they started walking upright.

--flatline

[kiralon]

Evolutionarily speaking, Wolfen, Coyles, and Kankoran probably gave up the ability to commonly have more than 1 or 2 babies at a time when they started walking upright.

--flatline

I agree, a litter would be too much, as for one the wolfen seem to only have 2 breasts, so having more than 2 babies would be problematic, as would having 15 children over a few years. Getting the resources together to feed them would be hard, so the child mortality rate would have to be huge.

Its more likely that they match humans in gestation time and number of babies at birth.

[glitterboy2098]

what is the wolfen lifespan? and do we know how long it takes for them to reach adulthood? that would give an idea of how fast they grow in general.
Wolfen are almost twice as big as a human, both in height and average mass, which looking at IRL mammals would suggest a longer gestation period. however, if they grow rapidly that might offset the larger size.

[Library Ogre]

what is the wolfen lifespan? and do we know how long it takes for them to reach adulthood? that would give an idea of how fast they grow in general.
Wolfen are almost twice as big as a human, both in height and average mass, which looking at IRL mammals would suggest a longer gestation period. however, if they grow rapidly that might offset the larger size.

50 years compared to a human 60; I tend to assume they hit adulthood about 10, and a degree of maturity about 12 (and by "Degree of maturity", I am talking more like they're late teens-early 20s in a modern human).

[Axelmania]

1D4 litters.is canon via the Rifts Conversion book. Mark there is no need to guess since we are explicitly told they are mature at 13.

I would love to be directed to pictures of 2 breasted wolfen in the books since this sounds like an art based thing, but it is possible that wooden do have more breasts but maybe only two of them are like humans and always large while the others only get enlarged after giving birth.

If the was a nipple shortage then in litters of 3 or 4 maybe some starve or get adopted by mothers with only 1.

[kiralon]

1D4 litters.is canon via the Rifts Conversion book. Mark there is no need to guess since we are explicitly told they are mature at 13.

I would love to be directed to pictures of 2 breasted wolfen in the books since this sounds like an art based thing, but it is possible that wooden do have more breasts but maybe only two of them are like humans and always large while the others only get enlarged after giving birth.

If the was a nipple shortage then in litters of 3 or 4 maybe some starve or get adopted by mothers with only 1.

Palladium is very human centric, I'm surprised that wolfen have legs the way they do rather than human legs, and the writers are more interested in a good story than being realistic (inconsistencies can bug me to the point of breaking immersion) which has its good points and bad points, and as mark writes we analyse the books way more than they were meant to be. Saying the wolfen have litters makes them sound more wolfy, rather then checking into the science of it. Children and the elderly suffer most when the resources are scarce, and the winters they have are pretty nasty bordering on epic. They would lose heaps of kids to environmental factors, not to mention mothers. It, yet again is like someone teleported the wolfen to the great northern wilderness a week or two ago and they actually haven't had to survive there. With no contraception and having 1d4 young that mature at 13 would mean 20 year old mothers with 10+ kids. That would be bloody hard to get food for all the year round (not even mentioning nipples). Being so big the wolfen means the would eat heaps and the job of supplying food would be hard.

I play the standard races have births rates mostly same or lower than humans (except gobbos and maybe orcs) and age the same as a human until puberty, where that start aging faster (wolfen, orcs and gobbos) or start aging slower (dwarfs, elfs etc).
The idea that a 60 year old elf is the same development age as a teenager or younger human is a bit ridiculous. That would mean the mothers would have elf babies that are 20 years old, and that's just them getting to the terrible 2's.

[Whiskeyjack]

Humans have thrived in incredibly inhospitable environments here for millennia. The Wolfen shouldn't have too much problem with it. They have natural protection from the cold built into their bodies, and they live in an area with incredible natural resources. All along the coastal areas are seals, whales and fish high in fat, perfect for making it through the winter. Add in the deer, moose and their own livestock, and they should have a pretty good survival rate, especially after unification.
For elves, I've always had them reaching physical maturity in their early to mid 20's, slightly after humans, but mental maturity comes much later, nearer the 50-60 year mark. Until then they are fairly rash, hot headed and teenager like.

[kiralon]

Humans have lived in incredibly difficult places, but we only thrived after wheat was grown for bread and the food issue was solved. The problem is wolfen aren't farmers, and not enough of them live along the coastal areas (thanks hotrod for the great GNW map viewtopic.php?f=5&t=151528&hilit=great+northern), and they eat a lot more. The forests can be abundant, but in the winters where the trees explode from the cold the amount of food needed for the amount of kids they would have is huge and going out into the cold can be a death sentence even for wolfen rangers, not mention they aren't nomadic anymore so they would be more and more relying on domestic stock because of overhunting in the areas of biggest population because the population doesn't move. Food supply and sewerage control are the biggest limiting factors on city size, and the human lands are full of farms that feed the larger populated areas, when was the last time you heard of a wolfen farmer. However the wolfen are probably fully roman and have aqueducts for water and sewerage channels/underground sewerage channels.
Just imagine if you had 20 odd kids by the age of 30 (up to 60 mind you) how you would go feeding them all in these times. The reason that didn't happen to humans in the olden days was the mother and child mortality rate, which was high. The average for humans back then was 5 pregnancies, in which %10 of women didn't live more than 42 days afterwards, and the mortality rate for children reaching the age of ten was high, with almost 1 in 2 dying, and this was in easier to live places than the GNW, with more abundant food.

[Whiskeyjack]

You're discounting all the Inuit tribes, African, Australian and South American hunter gatherers. All thrived (and still do) as hunter gatherers without any form of agriculture. They also enjoy significantly more leisure time than their agricultural cousins.
We also didn't have access to magic and psionic healing.
Keeping warm is actually a lot easier than a lot of people imagine. I've lived my whole life where the trees explode from the cold and worked outside for over a decade in temps down to -70C with the windchill. Proper layers of natural fibres always kept me warm. And a simple quinzee made in a couple of hours will create a building with an interior temp of around -1C in those conditions.
Even for feeding with creatures as big as Wolfen, they have multiple creatures much larger than them to kill and preserve, wether by smoking, salting, or sinking in a bog. The only difference for them is that they are wandering around to collect their food instead of sitting around growing it. They just take advantage of the seasonal migrations of seals, whales, caribou, waterfowl etc for a windfall.

[kiralon]

The tribes are all nomadic and move from food source to food source. The wolfen have stopped doing that and have their own cities now, with populations growing in a particular place, and i'm not saying its impossible to live in a place like that, but it is hard on the body and would increase the death rate. When working their how easy would have been for you to supply food for 10 to 15 kids while still working. That's why i'm saying litters aren't really likely unless lots of kids die off. Magic and Psionics aren't really that much help except for giving hp and sdc. Attack disease and cure illness are strangely limited. Priests can do a one of miraclulous cure disease that cures anything.

[Library Ogre]

Consider, if you will, the Krogan. When limited to the homeworld and its system, they had a massive mortality rate that made their r strategy reproduction necessary... many would die, so lots of kids kept populatiin stable.

Once that pressure was removed, though, their population exploded, making them a galactic Malthusian nightmare.

Now look at the Wolfen. If we assume they were semi-r-strategy, overcoming selection pressure with multiple offspring, then a relief from that selection pressure... say, ending intertribal warfare and inceeasing the size and reliability of food supplies... then you get a rapidly expanding population, barring a cultural shift that makes multiple litters per family undesirable.

[glitterboy2098]

The tribes are all nomadic and move from food source to food source. The wolfen have stopped doing that and have their own cities now, with populations growing in a particular place, and i'm not saying its impossible to live in a place like that, but it is hard on the body and would increase the death rate. When working their how easy would have been for you to supply food for 10 to 15 kids while still working. That's why i'm saying litters aren't really likely unless lots of kids die off. Magic and Psionics aren't really that much help except for giving hp and sdc. Attack disease and cure illness are strangely limited. Priests can do a one of miraclulous cure disease that cures anything.

actually, history shows the opposite.. with the rise of urbanization lifespans generally rise, and populations usually boom. cities bring with them agriculture and/or ranching, meaning a much greater access to food (people no longer starve because the hunters fail to bring home game, or the gathers fail to find enough), an fewer deaths from exposure to to the climate, weather, and other environmental hazards.

tribal populations rarely have high population growth rates because so many children die young from lack of food or climate related illnesses/exposure.

as far as food.. the advantage of settled populations is that every individual does not have to obtain food directly. in a tribal civilization you hunt or you gather, everything else is worked around that need. in settlements you have farmers, who grow enough surplus to feed lots of other people (even in early farming that is pretty inefficient), allowing for a much smaller portion of the population to have to be food providers. that opens up the rest to be artisans, scholars, builders, warriors..

it is much easier to support big families when you can just go to market and purchase what you need instead of having to stalk a deer every day or spend all day finding roots, nuts, and berries.

also, until you get to an industrial revolution, there are advantages to having large families. family is free manpower and labor in most pre-modern societies. They watch the animals, till and weed the fields, carry the bricks and stone, clean the house, mend the garments, etc. those mundane day to day chores that pile up quick and take away time from the bigger, more valuable things.

[kiralon]

The tribes are all nomadic and move from food source to food source. The wolfen have stopped doing that and have their own cities now, with populations growing in a particular place, and i'm not saying its impossible to live in a place like that, but it is hard on the body and would increase the death rate. When working their how easy would have been for you to supply food for 10 to 15 kids while still working. That's why i'm saying litters aren't really likely unless lots of kids die off. Magic and Psionics aren't really that much help except for giving hp and sdc. Attack disease and cure illness are strangely limited. Priests can do a one of miraclulous cure disease that cures anything.

actually, history shows the opposite.. with the rise of urbanization lifespans generally rise, and populations usually boom. cities bring with them agriculture and/or ranching, meaning a much greater access to food (people no longer starve because the hunters fail to bring home game, or the gathers fail to find enough), an fewer deaths from exposure to to the climate, weather, and other environmental hazards.

tribal populations rarely have high population growth rates because so many children die young from lack of food or climate related illnesses/exposure.

as far as food.. the advantage of settled populations is that every individual does not have to obtain food directly. in a tribal civilization you hunt or you gather, everything else is worked around that need. in settlements you have farmers, who grow enough surplus to feed lots of other people (even in early farming that is pretty inefficient), allowing for a much smaller portion of the population to have to be food providers. that opens up the rest to be artisans, scholars, builders, warriors..

it is much easier to support big families when you can just go to market and purchase what you need instead of having to stalk a deer every day or spend all day finding roots, nuts, and berries.

also, until you get to an industrial revolution, there are advantages to having large families. family is free manpower and labor in most pre-modern societies. They watch the animals, till and weed the fields, carry the bricks and stone, clean the house, mend the garments, etc. those mundane day to day chores that pile up quick and take away time from the bigger, more valuable things.

lol, pretty much exactly what I was saying, I was replying to whiskeyjack about the nomadic tribes in our world. Litters of pups would increase the pressure.

[glitterboy2098]

what you wrote though parsed as "it would be harder and tougher to live in a city because you'd have to work harder to feed your family"

i'll give you benefit of the doubt and assume it just parsed wrong. you might want to consider taking a bit more time to edit and clean up what you write to ensure it gets across your intended meaning. (fewer run on sentences and taking time to make sure you have clear subjects for each sentence would help.)



back on topic, i would point out that Litter size is a function of biology (how many Eggs the Ovulating Mammal releases at a time) and isn't usually effected by environmental factors. what would change for the Wolfen, much like with humans, is how often they get pregnant, and how many in each litter survive. a switch to a more settled situation is likely to result in Wolfen waiting longer before reproducing (tribal cultures tend to marry them off young), but more survive to adulthood. (you don't see longer periods between pregnancies usually till you hit the industrial age.. though cultural factors are big modifiers there)

on a less related note, the point about them having two breasts may not be an actual factor.. in real world canines the mammary glands only really become visible when the animal is lactating. it is possible that the Wolfen have an extra set that only show up when pregnant and nursing, which only show as small bumps under the fur.while i don't know what evolutionary pressures might lead to one set being constant and a second only showing up at certain times, but i'd imagine it wouldn't be too different from the pressures that led to human's having ones that don't vanish at all. (believed to be sexual display related.. mammary glands don't usually manifest in mammals except in Estrus, when they are ovulating. it is one of several triggers meant to attract a mate. it is believed that by having permanent structures that resemble such a state, it encouraged Male Hominids to pair up on a more permanent basis)

[kiralon]

With the way the map reads they don't look to have the farming infrastructure to feed themselves, wolfen are meat eaters so they would need some pretty big herds, which since they aren't nomadic anymore would require a lot of farmland, which they don't seem to have looking at the maps. Wolfen are big, humans have about 2.5 kg food per day, wolfen about 9kg per day (I mostly based wolfen food needs off bears, wolfen are bigger than the bears I have based the info of though) so a typical family of wolfen would need about 30 - 40 kg's of food a day (2 grown 4 still young). That would not be easy to supply in a anywhere.
Wolfen are likely to be like other mammals that give live birth that times of stress can effect ovulation as well, so the actual birthrate might be lower if there are adverse environmental effects.
But having 2 prominent and the other breasts non prominent seems a bit unlikely evolutionarily speaking. I can see why it works for humans (hourglass figure of women) with the male attraction to *****, but I think wolfen are more likely to be a made race designed and created by another race, who wanted a race of wolfmen, and the traits the wolfen have are what came from that rather then evolution, and evolution will eventually adjust them to what's needed.

[Whiskeyjack]

Only the central empire is mostly settled. Large amounts of Wolfen especially in the West and North, as well as throughout the empire are still nomadic tribesmen. You have to remember the land area they have available for hunting/farming. It's massive. With mammoths, caribou, giant land crabs and surrounded by ocean. Caribou move in herds that can number near 100,000. And when you look at the numbers, there really aren't that many Wolfen when you consider the area they occupy. The natural seasonal availability of food that can be harvested would likely be able to sustain the empire. Cattle and agriculture are an added bonus for producing a wider variety of foods and increase stability.
With a litter of 1d4 I would suspect that most Wolfen would only have one or two litters in their lifetime, especially in the civilized areas. More would be born to the nomadic tribes simply because of higher martality from their lifestyle. It would be similar for the ocean going tribes.

[kiralon]

Caribou wouldn't be enough as they don't have a high enough eat weight, 5 million wolfen @ 2.5 kg a day is about 12 million kilos of meat a day. The sun child tribe has cow city, and they supply most of the meat apparently but they would use almost as many cows as are killed in America per day, well likely a bit less because somehow one of the tribes is mostly vegetarian, because they have the teeth for it
not to mention they aren't nomadic any more so they would hunt out the areas around the cities anyway pretty quickly.



But as mark says this has been massively overthought. Its more likely the author went "Cool wolfmen" and that's about as much thought as he put in it, other than adding a few other wolfy touches. And the wolfen haven't been there centuries, they got teleported in yesterday with exact knowledge of the way the empire runs and started working, and the food and population issues will pop up soon.

[Whiskeyjack]

Not on their own no, but that's just a single example of a large seasonal availability of easily procured meat. There are dozens of others along with seasonal nuts fruits and berries.

One of the other strange things I've always found about the Great Northern Wilderness is the fact that it is described as being so cold in the winter, but the species that are found there would not survive in those conditions. Notably all the hardwoods like oak and maple.

[kiralon]

and all I was saying is that would work at first, but then the population eventually strips the locality bare and they have to then grow or import food. That's what typically happens when an area is 'civilised', the wolfen would have to have a bunch of well maintained roads (fairly likely going by their roman heritage) and heaps of merchant trains on them at all times to keep the food getting to where it was needed.

Could you imagine watching a wolfen eating a carrot, or corn on the cob or lettuce lol.
They certainly didn't evolve as omnivores with the teeth they have.

[Whiskeyjack]

Wolves are natural omnivores. Granted they lean heavily to the carnivore side, but they eat a large amount of berries in the summer/fall and grass shoots in the spring. Bletherad even has a Wolfen baker. My dog used to strip my garden bare of tomatoes and carrots and could strip a blueberry bush of berries three times as fast as I could pick them. In my mind, being bipedal and having hands changes everything about a creatures ability to open up food sources. Humans certainly don't have the dentition for meat, but we consume an awful lot of it, nicely tenderized by cooking. I'm willing to suspend a little reality to imagine a bipedal wolf eating a carrot before summoning a demon from Hades.

[Whiskeyjack]

Realistically, the Wolfen Empire needs a proper book that not only covers the Empire and its cities, but also addresses issues such as this. Currently, one of the most important Empires in the world got a simple gloss over.

[Razorwing]

Realistically, the Wolfen Empire needs a proper book that not only covers the Empire and its cities, but also addresses issues such as this. Currently, one of the most important Empires in the world got a simple gloss over.

To be honest... all the major powers thus far examined have more or less been "glossed over." sure, you get a little gimps into the general life of some of the people (usually the more influential)... but very little exacting detail to this degree.

The reason for this is simple. THIS IS A GAME.

It is not supposed to be a detailed simulation of what life would be like for people... as the characters you play aren't likely to stay in one place long enough for such minutia to be important. Then again... even if they were to stay in the area long enough, it is doubtful that such minutia would ever be important. Do you really want to bog down a game by delving into every little detail of the life of people you are rarely going to be interacting with for long outside of a tavern or market place? Do you really want to know how much a chamber pot can hold before it has to be emptied (by throwing the contents out a window... yet another fact of life in most medieval cultures that is rarely played up)... or would you rather skip such unimportant information in favor of the more exciting things... like the adventure your character is playing.

No... most people don't care about whether or not the books detail exactly how much food is produced in a nation down to the last cabbage that was destroyed when you over turned that cart headed to market during a foot race to catch the would-be assassin of a local Wolfen Senator... or whether a distant tribe can actually provide enough meat for a legion of soldiers you are not likely to encounter... simply because such information is rarely needed by the players... and a good GM can simply hand wave such details if they do become important at some point.

With a limited amount of space in a book, the writers at Palladium Books need to fill it with information that will be useful. This means that the day to day minutia of life will be sparsely talked about while far more interesting and useful information... such as city details or adventure possibilities are likely to get much more information.

To be honest... in playing various Palladium games for over 20 years... the amount of times I needed to know how quickly a food supply in an area like the Wolfen Empire would be exhausted by its average expected growth from the number of pups born amounts to exactly zero. It really is a non-issue... an interesting thought exercise perhaps... but not something that is ever really going to be needed or useful. The number of pups born and how quickly they are born, yes... as there have been a few cases where characters of opposite genders have hooked up in games... but beyond that... it has never been an issue that needed explaining... so why waste a limited word count in a book detailing something that may only be useful to maybe one game in a million?

I am sorry if this isn't the answer you want to hear... but to be honest, this is probably the most likely answer you are going to get. The level of detail you want simply isn't needed to run the game. If such information is honestly needed for your games, then you are likely going to need to come up with it yourself as it is unlikely that Palladium Books will ever provide any "official" information of such details for you.

Remember, you are playing Palladium Fantasy... not Palladium Reality.

[Axelmania]

With no contraception and having 1d4 young that mature at 13 would mean 20 year old mothers with 10+ kids.

This seems to assume Wolfen sexual habits mirror humans, which we don't necessarily know. Perhaps Wolfen mothers are grumpy and refuse sex until they've raised their litter until maturity. This could frustrate the males and make them more aggressive warriors.

I play the standard races have births rates mostly same or lower than humans (except gobbos and maybe orcs) and age the same as a human until puberty, where that start aging faster (wolfen, orcs and gobbos) or start aging slower (dwarfs, elfs etc).

Seems kinda boring. I think it's more interesting to explore what maturity @ 13 years for Wolfen (or 3 years for Dog Boys, maybe even faster for Lone Star Mutant Rats... anyone know rates for Ratlings or Ratanoids?) means for these species.

The idea that a 60 year old elf is the same development age as a teenager or younger human is a bit ridiculous. That would mean the mothers would have elf babies that are 20 years old, and that's just them getting to the terrible 2's.

I wouldn't necessarily think that Wolfen reaching physical maturity faster than humans necessarily means that Elves reach physical maturity slower.

Although the idea of creepy talking elf babies unable to walk yet already being practicing wizards (with all the blood-drinking cauldron goodness) is kinda cool, and might explain why Dwarves dislike them for continuing to practice magic.

I wonder what would be the least creepy magic OCC for elf babies to know. Diabolist/Summoner involve the use of your own blood. Maybe the Psi-Mystic? Warlock? Priest?

With all the high PPE that youths have I bet some gods would love a bunch of baby elf priests donating to them. A good way to guarantee protection of your rare kid too (aren't elves less fertile? I mix up my lore sometimes) if you have a god seeing through their eyes and protecting them until they reach maturity after several decades.

[kiralon]

The random starting age for elves/dwarves/changelings from the book is 32 to 64 whereas its 17 to 32 for everyone else, including the wolfen.

[Whiskeyjack]

Realistically, the Wolfen Empire needs a proper book that not only covers the Empire and its cities, but also addresses issues such as this. Currently, one of the most important Empires in the world got a simple gloss over.

To be honest... all the major powers thus far examined have more or less been "glossed over." sure, you get a little gimps into the general life of some of the people (usually the more influential)... but very little exacting detail to this degree.

The reason for this is simple. THIS IS A GAME.

It is not supposed to be a detailed simulation of what life would be like for people... as the characters you play aren't likely to stay in one place long enough for such minutia to be important. Then again... even if they were to stay in the area long enough, it is doubtful that such minutia would ever be important. Do you really want to bog down a game by delving into every little detail of the life of people you are rarely going to be interacting with for long outside of a tavern or market place? Do you really want to know how much a chamber pot can hold before it has to be emptied (by throwing the contents out a window... yet another fact of life in most medieval cultures that is rarely played up)... or would you rather skip such unimportant information in favor of the more exciting things... like the adventure your character is playing.

No... most people don't care about whether or not the books detail exactly how much food is produced in a nation down to the last cabbage that was destroyed when you over turned that cart headed to market during a foot race to catch the would-be assassin of a local Wolfen Senator... or whether a distant tribe can actually provide enough meat for a legion of soldiers you are not likely to encounter... simply because such information is rarely needed by the players... and a good GM can simply hand wave such details if they do become important at some point.

With a limited amount of space in a book, the writers at Palladium Books need to fill it with information that will be useful. This means that the day to day minutia of life will be sparsely talked about while far more interesting and useful information... such as city details or adventure possibilities are likely to get much more information.

To be honest... in playing various Palladium games for over 20 years... the amount of times I needed to know how quickly a food supply in an area like the Wolfen Empire would be exhausted by its average expected growth from the number of pups born amounts to exactly zero. It really is a non-issue... an interesting thought exercise perhaps... but not something that is ever really going to be needed or useful. The number of pups born and how quickly they are born, yes... as there have been a few cases where characters of opposite genders have hooked up in games... but beyond that... it has never been an issue that needed explaining... so why waste a limited word count in a book detailing something that may only be useful to maybe one game in a million?

I am sorry if this isn't the answer you want to hear... but to be honest, this is probably the most likely answer you are going to get. The level of detail you want simply isn't needed to run the game. If such information is honestly needed for your games, then you are likely going to need to come up with it yourself as it is unlikely that Palladium Books will ever provide any "official" information of such details for you.

Remember, you are playing Palladium Fantasy... not Palladium Reality.

When I say the Wolfen Empire was glossed over, I mean that there is virtually no information given on any part of the empire. No cities, no people of note, nothing. Compare that to every other book that has info on the leaders, city maps, and tons of adventure ideas from key players in the kingdom in question.
And yes, if I ever decide to have the Wolfen and Eastern Territory go to war in my game, this kind of information is crucial.

[kiralon]

and I find discussions like this help sharpen your ideas of an area.

[Whiskeyjack]

and I find discussions like this help sharpen your ideas of an area.

Agreed. I've been loving these back and forths lately. Lot of cool ideas and different viewpoints. I've changed several ways that I imagine certain aspects of the world and that will be filtering into my game.

[Axelmania]

Even if elves.have different starting ages, this could mean they put off getting an OCC because they are busy with other.things like lifting their noses at one anither for a couple decades.

[Sir_Spirit]

Isn't there a wolfen book?
Yep there is.

Wolfen Empire™
for Palladium Fantasy
The Wolfen Empire is growing. And that means trouble for humans, Dwarves, and other people as the Wolfen flex their military might and begin to study magic in earnest.
The Wolfen Empire™ sourcebook provides insight and history about the Wolfen, their past, present and goals for the future. The Wolfen are poised to become the next great civilization, but at what cost? Six fleshed out adventures plus a 101 adventure ideas table give players and Game Masters plenty of material for exploring the Great Northern Wilderness and encounters with the Wolfen.
The 12 Wolfen Tribes, their history and legends.
The Wolfen Empire, its economy and civilization.
Wolfen Military, rank, position and plans.
Geography of the Wolfen Empire.
13 notable creatures of the North.
101 Adventures Table and numerous other Random Encounter Tables.
6 fleshed out adventures across the Great Northern Wilderness.
A few infamous towns, villains and notable people.
Cover by Ramon K. Perez. Art by Perez, Johnson, Talbot, Williams and others.
Written by Erick Wujcik, Kevin Siembieda & Bill Coffin.
160 pages – Cat. No. 471.
$14.67USD."

and all I was saying is that would work at first, but then the population eventually strips the locality bare and they have to then grow or import food. That's what typically happens when an area is 'civilised', the wolfen would have to have a bunch of well maintained roads (fairly likely going by their roman heritage) and heaps of merchant trains on them at all times to keep the food getting to where it was needed.

Could you imagine watching a wolfen eating a carrot, or corn on the cob or lettuce lol.
They certainly didn't evolve as omnivores with the teeth they have.

If a doggie can eat a wolfen can eat it!
Doggie eating corn on the cob:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AMoqUY3ZWk
Doggie eating watermelon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_FEVa75H8g

[Axelmania]

Gentlewolfen, behold! CORN!!!

[Ignatius]

Wolfen maturing fast and having multiple young actually makes sense if you read between the lines of the back ground material that heavily insinuates on numerous occasions that they didnt evolve naturally. Being rather created by the elves to fight for them during the elf dwarf wars.

[Axelmania]

I just figured it was because actual wolves had multiple young and matured quickly.

[Boethermsbrukan]

there is no text about this.

Incorrect. I found this mention by accident when I was finishing up a looking-through of my copy of the Palladium 2nd Edition mainbook a couple of days ago, and I went back to where I remember reading it, right at the bottom of Page 333 and the tip-top piece of the 'True Giants' racial entries, explaining one big disadvantage Giants have of building their numbers, regarding breeding frequently.

"...while Wolfen females give birth to 1D4 (pups) after only 8 months of pregnancy(!)"

While taken slightly out of the text's context, it is, I assume, canon, being in a modem (1996, anyway) Palladium Books product.

-Boe.

P.S.: Besides, it makes it a real bother getting into your armour, assuming you have any in your size.

[Axelmania]

the bottom of Page 333 and the tip-top piece of the 'True Giants' racial entries, explaining one big disadvantage Giants have of building their numbers, regarding breeding frequently.

"...while Wolfen females give birth to 1D4 (pups) after only 8 months of pregnancy(!)"

While taken slightly out of the text's context, it is, I assume, canon, being in a modem (1996, anyway) Palladium Books product.

1D4 young after 8 months gestation, sexually mature at 13 years old, RCB p 86. Strangely this info doesn't appear to be present in the Palladium RPG or PFRPG 2nd Edition.

I stand corrected!

RCB still seems to be the first place this was printed, since PF2 came out afterward... although I haven't memorized all the 1st edition PF books so it's possible the 1D4 young / 8 month gestation/pregnancy thing could've appeared in one of them.

Rifts still seems to be the only place to know they become mature at 13 though.

[Boethermsbrukan]

Axelmania, good evening!

the bottom of Page 333 and the tip-top piece of the 'True Giants' racial entries, explaining one big disadvantage Giants have of building their numbers, regarding breeding frequently.

"...while Wolfen females give birth to 1D4 (pups) after only 8 months of pregnancy(!)"

While taken slightly out of the text's context, it is, I assume, canon, being in a modem (1996, anyway) Palladium Books product.

1D4 young after 8 months gestation, sexually mature at 13 years old, RCB p 86. Strangely this info doesn't appear to be present in the Palladium RPG or PFRPG 2nd Edition.

I stand corrected!

Ha! I'm happy to provide some tidbit of worth here and there, if I can. ^_^ BTW, am I reading correctly that 'RCB' stands for 'Rifts Conversion Book', and the first one specifically? I'm thinking I'll take a look this evening in my copy to see your entry as well.

RCB still seems to be the first place this was printed, since PF2 came out afterward... although I haven't memorized all the 1st edition PF books so it's possible the 1D4 young / 8 month gestation/pregnancy thing could've appeared in one of them.

Rifts still seems to be the only place to know they become mature at 13 though.

Agreed. I think the first printing Conversion Book One (I don't have the 2nd Edition version) was 1992-3 or so, if I remember when I was I picked up my copy. Yup! Just checked the publication date on mine; November 1991, first printing. And given twenty-five and a half years in its existence, it's in very decent shape now. Palladium Fantasy 2nd Edition would've been around 1996, I think; just checked, April 1996. That would've been one of the last few books I bought at Shining Knight, being two months or so before I graduated from high school nearby.

-Boe.

[glitterboy2098]

well if a later book didn't change that, it would still be valid. so it is worth it to keep looking, but now we have a basis for examination.

actually, that gestation rate might help explain why the Wolfen Empire has so many troops vs the Eastern Kingdoms. humans average 1 every 10 months or so, and need about 20 years to reach maturity. so the wolfen have more kids, faster, and they mature more rapidly.

[Boethermsbrukan]

Glitterboy2098, good evening!

well if a later book didn't change that, it would still be valid. so it is worth it to keep looking, but now we have a basis for examination.

Concurred, thus. The book I can think of most recently that would've been most likely to cover a lot of bits 'n' pieces regarding the Canine Races would be Wolfen Empire, which I'd start with, but at least in terms of my own library I haven't otherwise seen specific mentions per Wolfen birth number (dice rolling for it, in any case) and length of pregnancy in WE and the RCB I, and in the case of Rifts Conversion Book I, alone seems to mention and maintain a distinct span of time for Wolfen going from birth to maturity.

actually, that gestation rate might help explain why the Wolfen Empire has so many troops vs the Eastern Kingdoms. humans average 1 every 10 months or so, and need about 20 years to reach maturity. so the wolfen have more kids, faster, and they mature more rapidly.

Agreed. I'd add to that the fact that prior to forty or fifty years before the Palladium World's present day (I'm using 50 years as a possible extension, since Wolfen Empire came out several years ago) the Wolfen Empire wasn't in existence, with the remaining Twelve Tribes (and I assume elements of the Algor Range Huntsmen, which were mostly killed off by the rest of the Wolfen Tribes of the day en masse, who made it through without being put to the axe, sword and claw) often at odds with one another and not a single governmental and societal entity with a considerable massed Army behind it, sourced from (I assume) the military or tribal warriors of the individual Tribes prior to that. The initial Army that would exist after Confederation & Empire would be the amalgam of most or all of the fighting forces of the Tribes put together.

With little or no arguably destructive bickering between the Tribes post-Imperial State, there would also be room for considerable growth in population and technology (to a certain extent, anyway).

-Boe.

[glitterboy2098]

actually, that gestation rate might help explain why the Wolfen Empire has so many troops vs the Eastern Kingdoms. humans average 1 every 10 months or so, and need about 20 years to reach maturity. so the wolfen have more kids, faster, and they mature more rapidly.

Agreed. I'd add to that the fact that prior to forty or fifty years before the Palladium World's present day (I'm using 50 years as a possible extension, since Wolfen Empire came out several years ago) the Wolfen Empire wasn't in existence, with the remaining Twelve Tribes (and I assume elements of the Algor Range Huntsmen, which were mostly killed off by the rest of the Wolfen Tribes of the day en masse, who made it through without being put to the axe, sword and claw) often at odds with one another and not a single governmental and societal entity with a considerable massed Army behind it, sourced from (I assume) the military or tribal warriors of the individual Tribes prior to that. The initial Army that would exist after Confederation & Empire would be the amalgam of most or all of the fighting forces of the Tribes put together.

With little or no arguably destructive bickering between the Tribes post-Imperial State, there would also be room for considerable growth in population and technology (to a certain extent, anyway).

-Boe.

not to mention all those non-wolfen nations that the Empire has absorbed as affiliate states. those races and nations would likely have been engaged in low-level conflict with the wolfen tribes as well, which would make things worse pre-empire.

post-empire, they would be amplifiers for the Wolfen. (the kobolds alone would have made the Wolfen Empire a thing of fear, due to their superior metalworking. with that skill organized by the Empire, it means lots of good quality weapons and armor being produced.

[Boethermsbrukan]

Agreed. I'd add to that the fact that prior to forty or fifty years before the Palladium World's present day (I'm using 50 years as a possible extension, since Wolfen Empire came out several years ago) the Wolfen Empire wasn't in existence, with the remaining Twelve Tribes (and I assume elements of the Algor Range Huntsmen, which were mostly killed off by the rest of the Wolfen Tribes of the day en masse, who made it through without being put to the axe, sword and claw) often at odds with one another and not a single governmental and societal entity with a considerable massed Army behind it, sourced from (I assume) the military or tribal warriors of the individual Tribes prior to that. The initial Army that would exist after Confederation & Empire would be the amalgam of most or all of the fighting forces of the Tribes put together.

With little or no arguably destructive bickering between the Tribes post-Imperial State, there would also be room for considerable growth in population and technology (to a certain extent, anyway).

not to mention all those non-wolfen nations that the Empire has absorbed as affiliate states. those races and nations would likely have been engaged in low-level conflict with the wolfen tribes as well, which would make things worse pre-empire.

post-empire, they would be amplifiers for the Wolfen. (the kobolds alone would have made the Wolfen Empire a thing of fear, due to their superior metalworking. with that skill organized by the Empire, it means lots of good quality weapons and armor being produced.

Exactly right, and I know the Kobold metalworking advantage was mentioned as far back as Palladium Fantasy Book IV 'Advntures In The Northern Wilderness'. The biggest disadvantage the Wolfen have now compared to most major nations they've had or will eventually have a dust-up with is the lack of a significant navy (seagoing vessels); there are dependable craft in the water but nowhere near as many or as well-armed as Western or Eastern Navy ships. The two or three Orcish Affiliate States as well in sheer manpower gives the Wolfen a significant advantage as well; and of course, they're much happier being a part of the Wolfen military than any human organization's.

-Boe.