Crystal skin in 2nd edition

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Whiskeyjack
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Crystal skin in 2nd edition

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

I couldn't find any reference to this in the forum.
The crystal skin power creates a skin of armour around the user with 24 SDC at the cost of 24 ISP.
That's a whole lot of ISP for not a lot of protection. For those who have brought crystal magic into their 2nd edition games, how did you convert this ability? Was there anything else you did for any of the items to convert other abilities?
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

Unread post by eliakon »

Whiskeyjack wrote:I couldn't find any reference to this in the forum.
The crystal skin power creates a skin of armour around the user with 24 SDC at the cost of 24 ISP.
That's a whole lot of ISP for not a lot of protection. For those who have brought crystal magic into their 2nd edition games, how did you convert this ability? Was there anything else you did for any of the items to convert other abilities?

I added a "Per level" and gave it nAR 12. which probably doesn't sound like much but my house rule is that nAR applies to the natural unmodified roll... so that means that it bounces 60% of all hits.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

Per level sound much better with the cost.
Next question that just popped up while reading through the powers. Are the powers limited to use on the wielder, or can they be cast on others? Some seem pretty straight forward, like Impervious to Fire, as it uses 12 ISP per day. But Resist Cold is 12 ISP and can be used once per day, sounding like it could potentially be used on others.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

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RFI: where is the org. found?
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

Unread post by eliakon »

Whiskeyjack wrote:Per level sound much better with the cost.
Next question that just popped up while reading through the powers. Are the powers limited to use on the wielder, or can they be cast on others? Some seem pretty straight forward, like Impervious to Fire, as it uses 12 ISP per day. But Resist Cold is 12 ISP and can be used once per day, sounding like it could potentially be used on others.

To be honest...
...I just houseruled that and made it 12 per day as well.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

Unread post by kiralon »

With second ed id leave it as is as the mind mage regenerates isp so quickly
the crystal skin deflects electrical, fire and laser based attacks making you immune to them, as well as 24 sdc per skin that has an ar of 20.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:RFI: where is the org. found?

Island at the Edge of the World. Special powers of the crystal sword.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

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kiralon wrote:With second ed id leave it as is as the mind mage regenerates isp so quickly
the crystal skin deflects electrical, fire and laser based attacks making you immune to them, as well as 24 sdc per skin that has an ar of 20.

While fire is fairly common, electrical attacks are pretty rare and laser are extremely rare in PF. It would be much more useful in a tech setting. I will take the fire into consideration when I figure out what I want to do with the power.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

Unread post by Glistam »

Since 2nd Ed added S.D.C. to people, sort of doubling their health, maybe just doubling it would make sense.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

Unread post by kiralon »

Glistam wrote:Since 2nd Ed added S.D.C. to people, sort of doubling their health, maybe just doubling it would make sense.

This is just armour though and there is no difference in the armours between first and second ed.
So it would be like saying hey I just got first ed full plate in my second ed game, surely it must have double sdc.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

Unread post by eliakon »

kiralon wrote:
Glistam wrote:Since 2nd Ed added S.D.C. to people, sort of doubling their health, maybe just doubling it would make sense.

This is just armour though and there is no difference in the armours between first and second ed.
So it would be like saying hey I just got first ed full plate in my second ed game, surely it must have double sdc.

its not 'just armor'
This is just like how the psi powers and spells were completely redone from 1st edition to 2nd...
...this is a psi power.
They DID change the effects of the spells and psionics... I don't see why this particular psionic power should be considered off limits for revision.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

Unread post by kiralon »

eliakon wrote:
kiralon wrote:
Glistam wrote:Since 2nd Ed added S.D.C. to people, sort of doubling their health, maybe just doubling it would make sense.

This is just armour though and there is no difference in the armours between first and second ed.
So it would be like saying hey I just got first ed full plate in my second ed game, surely it must have double sdc.

its not 'just armor'
This is just like how the psi powers and spells were completely redone from 1st edition to 2nd...
...this is a psi power.
They DID change the effects of the spells and psionics... I don't see why this particular psionic power should be considered off limits for revision.

Mostly because it doesn't need it, first ed had less isp for a psionicist, and the recovery was lower too so it is technically more expensive for a first ed mind mage (ME+1d20, then 10 per level) then second ed (ME+3d6x10, then 12 per level), its given a protection rating that didn't change going from first to second. 24 sdc is pretty low for first ed as well, so its obviously supposed to be a low number. I can't see any justification for doubling the sdc. If anything the cost should double as second ed mind mages get a stupid amount of isp
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

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In a decent battle though, that ISP is burned through very quickly, especially if they're helping team mates. I just ran through a mock battle with my boys to test out some combat changes to try and speed it up. The battle was just over 8 rounds. He was down to 4 ISP at the end.
At 24 ISP for 24 SDC, he'd be more inclined to use TK forcefield at 30 ISP for 60 SDC and then use super telekinesis to bash people. With a decent protection, he'll be much more likely to use the skin and actually get involved in combat.
The power as it is doesn't make much sense to use unless you know ahead of time that you're facing a foe that uses a lot of energy attacks.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

Unread post by kiralon »

TK forcefield doesn't move, whereas in a crystal skin move around, and that 24 sdc has an ar of 20, which makes it one of the hardest things to penetrate as well as making you immune to a couple things. It doesn't need changing as it is pretty powerful as it is.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

Unread post by eliakon »

kiralon wrote:TK forcefield doesn't move, whereas in a crystal skin move around, and that 24 sdc has an ar of 20, which makes it one of the hardest things to penetrate as well as making you immune to a couple things. It doesn't need changing as it is pretty powerful as it is.

That AR of 20 isn't much really...
its not natural Armor Rating. So really what it says is you get 24 SDC... unless your opponent rolls a modified 20+ then you get nothing.
But as the poster pointed out, yes the entire point is that for 6 more ISP you get more defense (6) at level one. Each level thereafter you get another entire increment.
Level 1 x1.25
Level 2 x2.5
Level 3 x3.75
Level 4 x5

And if you want to get into a sword fight... use TK to swing a sword :D
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

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The 24 is also a VERY small amount of protection.
For example, if you're against a fairly average Ogre with a 22 PS using a giant size claymore (4D6+7), the average damage is going to be 21 per hit. I personally plat that blow through hits the opponent. For 24 ISP you're negating one hit. To balance this out, either the SDC needs to increase, or the ISP needs to decrease.
Movement isn't a big enough advantage, especially when TK forcefield can be thrown up as a parry. Telekinesis has a 200' range, he can easily run to where he needs to be, throw up the field, and grab an ogre as a club. By the time he hits level 4 the entire group can huddle with him and let him smash everything. Or I can get the crystal skin to be useful and have him enter hand to hand supplemented by his powers.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

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Yes 24 is a small amount of protection, but you are converting to a system where you can do it many more times than the original so making it tougher because he wont use it is like saying his hth style is to weak, he wont enter hth combat so lets double his bonuses.It was designed to be expensive, generally a first ed mindmage could have done this twice in combat and be out of isp. A second ed mind mage can do it about 6 times. It looks to be designed to take one blow for its cost. I understand he might think the ability useless but its not, not even for a first ed mind mage.

The problem with using tk as a parry as suddenly you now have a force field in front of you or around you that you have to dispel to attack through, I don't know why you keep comparing it to a force field, they are separate abilities. Mind mages are a broken class anyway, they can take hth martial arts and fight as well as a fighter, but then out of the gate do a 20d6 damage blast, or drop a rock on you for 9d4 x 10 damage.
He doesn't need any bonuses to dominate the battlefield, hes going to do that anyway. Wait until he gets mind wipe lol.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

Because when he's behind the force field, he can still perform numerous attacks through it, and they're both protective abilities.
By the time he's level 5, he can either use Crystal Skin 6 times (144 ISP for 144 SDC) or a force field once (30 ISP for 150 SDC). I'm trying to push him in the direction to use his powers with some thought behind them, instead of just turning into the tank of the group. Everyone always misses the subdue part in the experience table.
I may have to revisit several abilities if he seems to unbalance the game. I've only ever played minor psychics. This is the first Mind Mage in any game I've run or played.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

Unread post by eliakon »

kiralon wrote:Yes 24 is a small amount of protection, but you are converting to a system where you can do it many more times than the original so making it tougher because he wont use it is like saying his hth style is to weak, he wont enter hth combat so lets double his bonuses.It was designed to be expensive, generally a first ed mindmage could have done this twice in combat and be out of isp. A second ed mind mage can do it about 6 times. It looks to be designed to take one blow for its cost. I understand he might think the ability useless but its not, not even for a first ed mind mage.

The problem with using tk as a parry as suddenly you now have a force field in front of you or around you that you have to dispel to attack through, I don't know why you keep comparing it to a force field, they are separate abilities. Mind mages are a broken class anyway, they can take hth martial arts and fight as well as a fighter, but then out of the gate do a 20d6 damage blast, or drop a rock on you for 9d4 x 10 damage.
He doesn't need any bonuses to dominate the battlefield, hes going to do that anyway. Wait until he gets mind wipe lol.

That 1st ed mind mage though didn't have any other better options.
In first edition Basic Forcefiled (which turned into TKFF) was level 5, cost 20 ISP and provided SDC 20 with a kicker of 1 SDC per 1 ISPD
Meaning that... wait for it...
Crystal skin allowed you to get the exact same protection as the best psionic defense, PLUS other defenses (which provided universal protection from pretty much the entirety of direct damage battle magic!) PLUS had 2 more AR. The only down side was that it only lasted 10 melees instead of 8 per level. But that was often plenty for a single battle anyway.

Now though?
-It has vastly lower SDC, and its AR makes that SDC vastly weaker.
-The bonus protections are nice still okay... but they are not anything to write home about especially since they are not protecting from the entirety of the wizards energy box anymore (in 1st ed combat wizards were limited to call lignthing, fireball, blinding flash... but now they get stuff like orb of cold, throwing stone and other direct damage spells that are neither light nor fire nor electricity making the skin no longer an amazing defense against mages)
-And the duration has been cut in four (as it still lasts 8 melees aka 15 seconds.) where as the force field has been multiplied by 4 (it still lasts the old 10 MINUTES!)

This is why I say that it has gone from an amazing battle power... to a meh niche ability that a few characters who are highly trained sword fighters might find interesting to use in certain battles against specialized foes.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

Unread post by kiralon »

It doesn't have lower sdc, armour sdc didn't change going from first ed to second (well chain and double mail gained 1 ar point), so if you are converting armour you think you would keep the ar and sdc the same or maybe increase the ar by 1. I don't understand how having the same sdc and ar makes it vastly weaker. Yes a few classes get extra hit points in the form of sdc, but that negative is offset by the amount of times a 2nd ed mind mage can cast it.
Also those extra spells you mentioned aren't in the standard array of spells, so im guessing are in rifters which are optional extras that you don't start with, so most of the direct damage spells are still energy or fire.
Yes I think its an overly expensive ability, but considering it comes from a light sabre that does more damage as you go up levels and gives you a decent save bonus vs psionics

I don't think it compares to tk field from second ed because that is a force field power, not armour like it was in first ed.
also remember the rate that a psionicist got isp back was a lot slower in first ed as well, so the amount of times a 2nd ed mindmage can do it in a week far outstrips a first ed mindmage as well.

One change that I would think be OK for it (probably be a one off though) is the sdc recovers fully at the start of each round for the amount of time it lasts for, I think that would look cool.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

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Regenerating each melee is kinds cool kiralon.
The spells Orb of Cold is from Library of Bletherad, Throwing Stones is from Rifts Book of Magic. With all the spells that have come out since IATEOTW, the skin is definitely not as protective as it was when created.
I really wish KS would just get the remaining books converted to 2nd edition.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

Unread post by eliakon »

kiralon wrote:It doesn't have lower sdc, armour sdc didn't change going from first ed to second (well chain and double mail gained 1 ar point), so if you are converting armour you think you would keep the ar and sdc the same or maybe increase the ar by 1. I don't understand how having the same sdc and ar makes it vastly weaker.

It isn't armor that I am talking about, it is psionic powers.
It is that in 1st ed the Psi defense power was Basic Force Field
In 2nd ed that power got a massive power boost and became TK Force Field.
So yes the SDC did change...

kiralon wrote: Yes a few classes get extra hit points in the form of sdc, but that negative is offset by the amount of times a 2nd ed mind mage can cast it.

Again I am trying to make an apples to apples comparison
It doesn't matter if a few classes got a few more SDC...EVERYONE got a power boost. So the fact that everyone got some SDC comes out in the wash.
What matters here is that the power that this was set against got a MASSIVE boost, and is now vastly superior defensively.

kiralon wrote:Also those extra spells you mentioned aren't in the standard array of spells, so im guessing are in rifters which are optional extras that you don't start with, so most of the direct damage spells are still energy or fire.

Canon spells from Mysteries of Magic, Byzantinum, Rifter #70, Library of Bletherad, Northern Hinterlands ect...
Yes the majority of DD spells are still electricity/fire... but no longer all of them, heck there is an entire school based on ice/cold magic that is totally 100% public and open for anyone to take spells from.
Since it is perfectly possible to start with spells that are based on things like cold, or earth, or sound or what have you...
Then no, it is no longer the same amazing near total defense against wizards.
(never mind the fact that the suit provides no protection against 'energy' so spells like the level 3 Energy Bolt spell from the base book will work perfectly well)
kiralon wrote:Yes I think its an overly expensive ability, but considering it comes from a light sabre that does more damage as you go up levels and gives you a decent save bonus vs psionics

The source doesn't matter.
If the power is pointless then the power is pointless

kiralon wrote:I don't think it compares to tk field from second ed because that is a force field power, not armour like it was in first ed.

Actually the Basic Force Field was a force field too.
Since there was no way to 'bypass' it and you had to totally batter it down to damage the psychic.

kiralon wrote:also remember the rate that a psionicist got isp back was a lot slower in first ed as well, so the amount of times a 2nd ed mindmage can do it in a week far outstrips a first ed mindmage as well.

Again irrelevant.
In 1st ed the cost of the two powers was virtually the same there too.
So the regeneration doesn't matter. It really doesn't, because your getting the same number of casts of your defense per time period. What HAS changed is what your getting for each cast.

kiralon wrote:One change that I would think be OK for it (probably be a one off though) is the sdc recovers fully at the start of each round for the amount of time it lasts for, I think that would look cool.

:? wait you think that getting 24 points per level is over powered...
but getting 24 points per round is a balanced ability?
It may look cool... but that would be seriously OP, not to mention is WAY more of a power boost than the per level.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

Unread post by Glistam »

Most of the N.P.C.'s in the books who have swords with the Crystal Skin ability don't have many other options from what I can see.

Sir "Mad" Slandel on page 80 is only a Minor Psionic with no defensive psychic powers and 64 I.S.P.. He only wears light armor normally but if the battle will be a challenge he then uses the Crystal Skin. Converting him to 2nd Edition wouldn't give him any usable defensive powers (he would lose psychic powers, actually, though maybe keep the same or similar I.S.P.)

Sir Molderi on pages 80-81 is also only a Minor Psionic with just 29 I.S.P.! Her armor of choice is a half-suit of Chain but there's no note about her typical use of the power.

Sir Belveder on pages 82-83 is a Master Psionic so he definitely has other options available to him, but his entry states that he wears no armor because he relies on the Crystal Skin power of his sword. He really enjoys his sword, it seems, since he plays with it all the time. But with 110 I.S.P. to play with he has a lot of other options and it's called out that uses his powers in combat. I think it's worth noting that he's really just playing at being a knight - with his level of abilities he should be an interrogator, not a knight, and that's his "retirement" plan. So in a way, the Crystal Skin sword ability isn't really meant for someone like him.

I'm leaning towards agreeing with Kiralon here. There's no need to change this power, it's workable in the 2nd Edition as-is. The psychics who would need to use it should only be activating it once and then hoping they don't need to rely on it as they parry and dodge their opponents attacks. A Master Psionic has better options and that's fine since this power isn't really meant for them anyway. It's basically a protective layer of 24 S.D.C. that will always take damage before you do (A.R. 20 means it's always hit - this is called out on page 91 in the Crystal Skin entry of "The Defender" where it says ALL blows will strike the crystal shell first and then list an A.R. of 20+).

An idea I like with this is to let this armor prevent any extra damage from carrying over once it's destroyed. That seems to fit with the idea of how it's designed or intended to be used, and would keep it potentially useful in the 2nd Edition.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

Unread post by eliakon »

Glistam wrote:Most of the N.P.C.'s in the books who have swords with the Crystal Skin ability don't have many other options from what I can see.

Sir "Mad" Slandel on page 80 is only a Minor Psionic with no defensive psychic powers and 64 I.S.P.. He only wears light armor normally but if the battle will be a challenge he then uses the Crystal Skin. Converting him to 2nd Edition wouldn't give him any usable defensive powers (he would lose psychic powers, actually, though maybe keep the same or similar I.S.P.)

Sir Molderi on pages 80-81 is also only a Minor Psionic with just 29 I.S.P.! Her armor of choice is a half-suit of Chain but there's no note about her typical use of the power.

Sir Belveder on pages 82-83 is a Master Psionic so he definitely has other options available to him, but his entry states that he wears no armor because he relies on the Crystal Skin power of his sword. He really enjoys his sword, it seems, since he plays with it all the time. But with 110 I.S.P. to play with he has a lot of other options and it's called out that uses his powers in combat. I think it's worth noting that he's really just playing at being a knight - with his level of abilities he should be an interrogator, not a knight, and that's his "retirement" plan. So in a way, the Crystal Skin sword ability isn't really meant for someone like him.

I'm leaning towards agreeing with Kiralon here. There's no need to change this power, it's workable in the 2nd Edition as-is. The psychics who would need to use it should only be activating it once and then hoping they don't need to rely on it as they parry and dodge their opponents attacks. A Master Psionic has better options and that's fine since this power isn't really meant for them anyway. It's basically a protective layer of 24 S.D.C. that will always take damage before you do (A.R. 20 means it's always hit - this is called out on page 91 in the Crystal Skin entry of "The Defender" where it says ALL blows will strike the crystal shell first and then list an A.R. of 20+).

An idea I like with this is to let this armor prevent any extra damage from carrying over once it's destroyed. That seems to fit with the idea of how it's designed or intended to be used, and would keep it potentially useful in the 2nd Edition.

If you change the power to remove the AR and give it the GI Joe rule that might help.
But as written... it has AR 20, which means that if I roll a modified 21 then I slip right past it. That is what AR means.

But I guess if your wanting to have it be something that is for minor psychics and not masters then TK FF does fall off the table and it goes back to being decent (in that ANYTHING is decent)
It would still be considered a joke by most Master Psychics I believe but I can buy the argument that it is intended for minor psis and wasn't intended to protect Master Psis.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

Unread post by kiralon »

eliakon wrote: It isn't armor that I am talking about, it is psionic powers

We are talking about psionic armour, the ar and sdc give it away.
It is that in 1st ed the Psi defense power was Basic Force Field
In 2nd ed that power got a massive power boost and became TK Force Field.
So yes the SDC did change...[/quote]
No proof that basic forcefield became tk forcefield, they are different abilities, basic forcefield give you an armour and sdc rating for example, and you can walk around in it. TK forcefield is a classic force field, it doesn't move.

eliakon wrote:Again I am trying to make an apples to apples comparison
It doesn't matter if a few classes got a few more SDC...EVERYONE got a power boost. So the fact that everyone got some SDC comes out in the wash.
What matters here is that the power that this was set against got a MASSIVE boost, and is now vastly superior defensively.

It was armour, armour did not much of a power boost.

eliakon wrote:Canon spells from Mysteries of Magic, Byzantinum, Rifter #70, Library of Bletherad, Northern Hinterlands ect...
Yes the majority of DD spells are still electricity/fire... but no longer all of them, heck there is an entire school based on ice/cold magic that is totally 100% public and open for anyone to take spells from.
Since it is perfectly possible to start with spells that are based on things like cold, or earth, or sound or what have you...

Yes if you start at those locations where those schools are I'd allow spells being picked from them, but they aren't general knowledge. You mostly have to go to bletherad to learn about them, not to mention the most dangerous direct damage users are fire and air elementalists.
Then no, it is no longer the same amazing near total defense against wizards.
(never mind the fact that the suit provides no protection against 'energy' so spells like the level 3 Energy Bolt spell from the base book will work perfectly well)
eliakon wrote:The source doesn't matter.
If the power is pointless then the power is pointless

But you keep saying the source does matter because its from and older book that isn't as powerful

eliakon wrote:Actually the Basic Force Field was a force field too.
Since there was no way to 'bypass' it and you had to totally batter it down to damage the psychic.

You might wan't to check your first ed book. basic forcefield has an ar of 18 which means it can be bypassed. You are porbably confused about the bit that says it will be hit before other armour, that's because it has higher ar then any other armour (other than crystal), roll over 18 modified and you still make your opponent bleed.

eliakon wrote:Again irrelevant.
In 1st ed the cost of the two powers was virtually the same there too.
So the regeneration doesn't matter. It really doesn't, because your getting the same number of casts of your defense per time period. What HAS changed is what your getting for each cast.

It certainly does, and you don't get the same casts, 2nd ed MM get 100+ isp more so can cast it more, and then they regenerate back to full faster than the MM's from first ed who use all 40 of their isp. 2nd ed MM's get isp back while running for their lives.
2nd ed mm casts 5 crystal skins, first ed mm barely get off 2. They ride for 12 hours 2nd ed MM gets another crystal skin off. they stop and rest, every 2 hrs the 2nd ed mindmage gets a crystal skin off. After a nights meditation the first ed mind mage can get his third crystal skin activated. compared to the 2nd ed mind mage who has cast it another 4 times.
With that much difference in the ability to cast it how can it not matter.

eliakon wrote: :? wait you think that getting 24 points per level is over powered...
but getting 24 points per round is a balanced ability?
It may look cool... but that would be seriously OP, not to mention is WAY more of a power boost than the per level.

It would be a one off special ability as in one pc only ever gets it, and that because I like the idea of it, getting the crystal shattered and watch it grow back. Perfect back guy ability, until the pc's kill him and take his sword.

I have a funny feeling we played first ed basic force field differently.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

Unread post by eliakon »

kiralon wrote:
eliakon wrote:
kiralon wrote:
eliakon wrote: It isn't armor that I am talking about, it is psionic powers

We are talking about psionic armour, the ar and sdc give it away.

It is that in 1st ed the Psi defense power was Basic Force Field
In 2nd ed that power got a massive power boost and became TK Force Field.
So yes the SDC did change...

No proof that basic forcefield became tk forcefield, they are different abilities, basic forcefield give you an armour and sdc rating for example, and you can walk around in it. TK forcefield is a classic force field, it doesn't move.

Well Basic Forcefield was the only defensive power so...

kiralon wrote:
eliakon wrote:Again I am trying to make an apples to apples comparison
It doesn't matter if a few classes got a few more SDC...EVERYONE got a power boost. So the fact that everyone got some SDC comes out in the wash.
What matters here is that the power that this was set against got a MASSIVE boost, and is now vastly superior defensively.

It was armour, armour did not much of a power boost.

No, it was not armor anymore than Armor of Ithan was armor.

kiralon wrote:
eliakon wrote:Canon spells from Mysteries of Magic, Byzantinum, Rifter #70, Library of Bletherad, Northern Hinterlands ect...
Yes the majority of DD spells are still electricity/fire... but no longer all of them, heck there is an entire school based on ice/cold magic that is totally 100% public and open for anyone to take spells from.
Since it is perfectly possible to start with spells that are based on things like cold, or earth, or sound or what have you...

Yes if you start at those locations where those schools are I'd allow spells being picked from them, but they aren't general knowledge. You mostly have to go to bletherad to learn about them, not to mention the most dangerous direct damage users are fire and air elementalists.

Um you might want to read the books.
Ice magic is listed as a 'common form' of magic that is now a universal form of magic.
it doesn't require going to Bletheread or anything.
Same with the spells in Mysteries of Magic.
The game has changed, it is not the core book anymore (and even that core book has energy bolt)

kiralon wrote:
eliakon wrote:Then no, it is no longer the same amazing near total defense against wizards.
(never mind the fact that the suit provides no protection against 'energy' so spells like the level 3 Energy Bolt spell from the base book will work perfectly well)
The source doesn't matter.
If the power is pointless then the power is pointless

But you keep saying the source does matter because its from and older book that isn't as powerful

No that is not what I am saying what I am saying that just because the power comes from an artifact doesn't make it instantly viable.
THAT is what I mean by 'source doesn't matter' Not "what book it is in"
It doesn't matter if it comes from a sword, or a class, or a skill... what matters is what the power ends up doing stat wise.

kiralon wrote:
eliakon wrote:Actually the Basic Force Field was a force field too.
Since there was no way to 'bypass' it and you had to totally batter it down to damage the psychic.

You might wan't to check your first ed book. basic forcefield has an ar of 18 which means it can be bypassed.
You are porbably confused about the bit that says it will be hit before other armour, that's because it has higher ar then any other armour (other than crystal), roll over 18 modified and you still make your opponent bleed.

The power specifically says "blocks all damage before the personal armor is affected" its "AR" is for show (just like the AR of TK FF for that matter... another reason to suspect the one evolved into the other)
That is not "blocks all damage that is below the AR"
A GM can make a house rule that changes the written text sure... but as written the power ignores the normal AR rules.

kiralon wrote:
eliakon wrote:Again irrelevant.
In 1st ed the cost of the two powers was virtually the same there too.
So the regeneration doesn't matter. It really doesn't, because your getting the same number of casts of your defense per time period. What HAS changed is what your getting for each cast.

It certainly does, and you don't get the same casts, 2nd ed MM get 100+ isp more so can cast it more, and then they regenerate back to full faster than the MM's from first ed who use all 40 of their isp. 2nd ed MM's get isp back while running for their lives.
2nd ed mm casts 5 crystal skins, first ed mm barely get off 2. They ride for 12 hours 2nd ed MM gets another crystal skin off. they stop and rest, every 2 hrs the 2nd ed mindmage gets a crystal skin off. After a nights meditation the first ed mind mage can get his third crystal skin activated. compared to the 2nd ed mind mage who has cast it another 4 times.
With that much difference in the ability to cast it how can it not matter.

Because the first edition mage gets the same number of Crystal Skins as BFF and the 2nd edition one gets the same number of CS and TKFF.
The regeneration rate doesn't change because of the power.
Thus the regeneration is a red herring as it doesn't change what is actually being looked at, namely the value of CS vs TKFF

kiralon wrote:
eliakon wrote: :? wait you think that getting 24 points per level is over powered...
but getting 24 points per round is a balanced ability?
It may look cool... but that would be seriously OP, not to mention is WAY more of a power boost than the per level.

It would be a one off special ability as in one pc only ever gets it, and that because I like the idea of it, getting the crystal shattered and watch it grow back. Perfect back guy ability, until the pc's kill him and take his sword.

Okay, yeah that might work as a unique power


kiralon wrote:I have a funny feeling we played first ed basic force field differently.

Yes, I have a feeling that we read the books as saying totally different things.
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Re: Crystal skin in 2nd edition

Unread post by kiralon »

eliakon wrote:Well Basic Forcefield was the only defensive power so...

That doesn't make it the same.
eliakon wrote:
No, it was not armor anymore than Armor of Ithan was armor.

Armour of ithan also is armour, that starts weaker and ends up stronger than its first ed comparison

eliakon wrote: Um you might want to read the books.
Ice magic is listed as a 'common form' of magic that is now a universal form of magic.
it doesn't require going to Bletheread or anything.
Same with the spells in Mysteries of Magic.
The game has changed, it is not the core book anymore (and even that core book has energy bolt)

Well the bletherad spell books are rare and the spells in them are basically rewards for great deeds except for lvl 10 or higher water elementalists who can pick the cold spells at will. Mysteries of magic doesn't really have anything direct damage. I don't have byzantium yet so I don't know much about the cold magic in that but it seemed to be mostly northern based from what I have read, and Rifters are optionals only.

eliakon wrote:No that is not what I am saying what I am saying that just because the power comes from an artifact doesn't make it instantly viable.
THAT is what I mean by 'source doesn't matter' Not "what book it is in"
It doesn't matter if it comes from a sword, or a class, or a skill... what matters is what the power ends up doing stat wise.

Well, turn dead went from useful to useless, have you beefed that up as well. Just because it might seem useless isn't a reason to beef it up. Induce nightmares is pretty useless, I have seen it used once but it is pretty expensive, or cure insanity that only mostly works.

eliakon wrote:The power specifically says "blocks all damage before the personal armor is affected" its "AR" is for show (just like the AR of TK FF for that matter... another reason to suspect the one evolved into the other)
That is not "blocks all damage that is below the AR"
A GM can make a house rule that changes the written text sure... but as written the power ignores the normal AR rules.

Blocks all damage below AR is exactly what it does, its AR, and penetrating armour and hurting the person underneath isn't effecting the armour in any way shape or form. At that stage nothing had a higher ar, so it would always block damage to other armour first, because if it doesn't penetrate its ar of 18 it doesn't do any damage to armour underneath, and if it does get though the basic force field it penetrates the armour underneath anyway.
That's not house ruling, that's the basic armour rules for layering armour in palladium. Ignoring AR on something is house ruling, and both crystal skin and basic force field have an armour rating and an sdc rating which means a strike roll over the ar penetrates and does damage to the person underneath. If it said it blocked all damage I would wonder why it had an ar, but it only says it protects armour in a way that is consistent with armour layering.

eliakon wrote:Again irrelevant.
In 1st ed the cost of the two powers was virtually the same there too.
So the regeneration doesn't matter. It really doesn't, because your getting the same number of casts of your defense per time period. What HAS changed is what your getting for each cast.

Too many things come under that bracket without house ruling half (or more) the book.


eliakon wrote:Because the first edition mage gets the same number of Crystal Skins as BFF and the 2nd edition one gets the same number of CS and TKFF.
The regeneration rate doesn't change because of the power.
Thus the regeneration is a red herring as it doesn't change what is actually being looked at, namely the value of CS vs TKFF

Ah I see, we will have to disagree on this one, basic force field and telekinetic force field a very different powers that don't relate to each other in the way you think they do. I can't change your stance on that I can see. Talk about red herrings.


eliakon wrote:Yes, I have a feeling that we read the books as saying totally different things.

That's what I don't like about the palladium system. The ambiguities that come from badly worded parts with little editing and little errata.
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