Psionic Bio-Reneneration

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AlanGunhouse
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Psionic Bio-Reneneration

Unread post by AlanGunhouse »

OK, reading the Bio-Regeneration Minor Psionic power entry, it says the power has an ISP cost of 6, that it takes one full minute of concentration, and that it heals 2d6 hp or 3d6 SDC per round.

Since there are 4 rounds in a minute, that means you gain a total of up to 8d6 HP or 12d6 SDC (or some combination like 2d6 HP and 9d6 SDC) for the 6 ISP and 1 minute spent, correct?
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

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That's how I've always played it.
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

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Glad to know I am not the only one who reads it that way.
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Thank you.

I've always read that it takes a minute to activate the power. Which would make the power less useful then what was written.
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

Unread post by AlanGunhouse »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Thank you.

I've always read that it takes a minute to activate the power. Which would make the power less useful then what was written.


That could be an interpretation, which is why I thought I should bring it up for discussion.
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

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That is the way I have played it as well, 1 minute preparation then the power goes off, otherwise 6 isp for that much healing isn't anywhere near enough, but either way works I guess as it doesn't actually say that it has a trance length even though it seems like it should.
However the minute/melee and copy/paste issue pops up here from when a melee was a minute rather than 4 melees to a minute and then they copy pasted powers from first ed to second ed so things get screwy. Its likely supposed to be 1 melee's worth of meditation and then the power goes off and then a cooldown of one melee, rather than minutes, but just like a lot of things it badly needs errata.
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

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kiralon wrote:That is the way I have played it as well, 1 minute preparation then the power goes off, otherwise 6 isp for that much healing isn't anywhere near enough, but either way works I guess as it doesn't actually say that it has a trance length even though it seems like it should.
However the minute/melee and copy/paste issue pops up here from when a melee was a minute rather than 4 melees to a minute and then they copy pasted powers from first ed to second ed so things get screwy. Its likely supposed to be 1 melee's worth of meditation and then the power goes off and then a cooldown of one melee, rather than minutes, but just like a lot of things it badly needs errata.


It really is a matter of poor wording. The way it reads is that the psychic spends a minute in meditation before healing for 1 melee round, then has to wait another minute before he can activate the power again (thus requiring another minute of meditation before healing for another melee round).

Additionally... the Permanent duration also seems to confuse a lot of players who think that by spending 6 ISP the power is now active all the time... when it is merely the healing that is permanent (until one is injured again).

It really is a confusingly worded power.
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

Unread post by Library Ogre »

As I have said before, y'all seem to assume that Palladium books are written with the same exacting precision with which they are analyzed. I think that is... ambitious.
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

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Simply put... if Bio-Regeneration (Healer) allows one to heal every melee round during the minute of concentration... then it will heal the character more than if the character had Bio-Regeneration (Super).

Bio-Regeneration (Healer) is supposed to only regenerate 2d6 HP or 3d6 SDC at the end of the minute of concentration (over a period of 1 melee round) for a cost of 6 ISP. The character then must wait 1 minute before he can spend another 6 ISP and another minute of concentration to heal.

Bio-Regeneration (Super) heals 4d6 HP and 4d6 SDC instantly at the end of a minute of concentration for a cost of 20 ISP. The character can then spend another 20 ISP to start another minute of healing concentration immediately.

Now, it may still seem that Bio-Regeneration (Healer) is a better option... and overall, it can be cheaper... but it isn't faster. To heal the same amount as the Super Psionic version, the Healer version will need at least 3 expenditures (18 ISP) and spend nearly 6 minutes (5 minutes 45 seconds) to do what the Super Psionic version does instantly after 1 minute. Even then, the Healer version will still be 1d6 SDC of healing short.

Bio-Regeneration (Super) is supposed to be a superior version of Bio-Regeneration (Healer)... and this is the only way that will be.

If we allow the Healer version to heal every melee round during the concentration, the character will be able to heal 4d6 HP and 6d6 SDC in the same time frame as it takes the Super Psionic version to do the same job for less than 1/3rd the cost in ISP and with 2d6 SDC more healing. Even factoring the downtime needed for the Healer version, the overall cost to amount healed still favors the Healer version: 8d6 HP and 12d6 SDC over 3 minutes for 12 ISP vs. 12d6 HP and 12d6 over the same 3 minutes for 60 ISP... 5 times the amount for a mere 4d6 HP more healing in the same span of time.

Just as Telekinesis (Super) is clearly a superior version of Telekinesis (Physical)... so too should Bio-Regeneration (Super) be a superior version of Bio-Regeneration (Healer).
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

Unread post by eliakon »

Razorwing wrote:Simply put... if Bio-Regeneration (Healer) allows one to heal every melee round during the minute of concentration... then it will heal the character more than if the character had Bio-Regeneration (Super).

Bio-Regeneration (Healer) is supposed to only regenerate 2d6 HP or 3d6 SDC at the end of the minute of concentration (over a period of 1 melee round) for a cost of 6 ISP. The character then must wait 1 minute before he can spend another 6 ISP and another minute of concentration to heal.

Bio-Regeneration (Super) heals 4d6 HP and 4d6 SDC instantly at the end of a minute of concentration for a cost of 20 ISP. The character can then spend another 20 ISP to start another minute of healing concentration immediately.

Now, it may still seem that Bio-Regeneration (Healer) is a better option... and overall, it can be cheaper... but it isn't faster. To heal the same amount as the Super Psionic version, the Healer version will need at least 3 expenditures (18 ISP) and spend nearly 6 minutes (5 minutes 45 seconds) to do what the Super Psionic version does instantly after 1 minute. Even then, the Healer version will still be 1d6 SDC of healing short.

Bio-Regeneration (Super) is supposed to be a superior version of Bio-Regeneration (Healer)... and this is the only way that will be.

If we allow the Healer version to heal every melee round during the concentration, the character will be able to heal 4d6 HP and 6d6 SDC in the same time frame as it takes the Super Psionic version to do the same job for less than 1/3rd the cost in ISP and with 2d6 SDC more healing. Even factoring the downtime needed for the Healer version, the overall cost to amount healed still favors the Healer version: 8d6 HP and 12d6 SDC over 3 minutes for 12 ISP vs. 12d6 HP and 12d6 over the same 3 minutes for 60 ISP... 5 times the amount for a mere 4d6 HP more healing in the same span of time.

Just as Telekinesis (Super) is clearly a superior version of Telekinesis (Physical)... so too should Bio-Regeneration (Super) be a superior version of Bio-Regeneration (Healer).

Thank you for doing the math here for us
I totally agree.
Bio-Regeneration has a 'warm up time' (think of it as a casting time for a spell. You don't get the effects of the spell while you are casting it after all.)
Then, after it warms up/is cast you get your power.
But only after, not during.
Basically otherwise you have removed the entire warm up/casting time from the game AND given all such powers vast boosts.
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

Unread post by AlanGunhouse »

It needs to be edited to say so, because it does not say anything about having a time it takes or a meditation time other than saying 1 minute. It should read - Trance Time: 1 minute, Duration: 1 melee with lasting effects
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

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AlanGunhouse wrote:It needs to be edited to say so, because it does not say anything about having a time it takes or a meditation time other than saying 1 minute. It should read - Trance Time: 1 minute, Duration: 1 melee with lasting effects


Like I said... poorly worded... but that's what happens when a company tends to copy and paste from one book to the next rather than actually edit the powers to make them easier to understand.

That said... it does say in the description of both that it takes 1 full minute of concentration to use these powers.
Last edited by Razorwing on Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

Unread post by Razorwing »

eliakon wrote:
Razorwing wrote:Simply put... if Bio-Regeneration (Healer) allows one to heal every melee round during the minute of concentration... then it will heal the character more than if the character had Bio-Regeneration (Super).

Bio-Regeneration (Healer) is supposed to only regenerate 2d6 HP or 3d6 SDC at the end of the minute of concentration (over a period of 1 melee round) for a cost of 6 ISP. The character then must wait 1 minute before he can spend another 6 ISP and another minute of concentration to heal.

Bio-Regeneration (Super) heals 4d6 HP and 4d6 SDC instantly at the end of a minute of concentration for a cost of 20 ISP. The character can then spend another 20 ISP to start another minute of healing concentration immediately.

Now, it may still seem that Bio-Regeneration (Healer) is a better option... and overall, it can be cheaper... but it isn't faster. To heal the same amount as the Super Psionic version, the Healer version will need at least 3 expenditures (18 ISP) and spend nearly 6 minutes (5 minutes 45 seconds) to do what the Super Psionic version does instantly after 1 minute. Even then, the Healer version will still be 1d6 SDC of healing short.

Bio-Regeneration (Super) is supposed to be a superior version of Bio-Regeneration (Healer)... and this is the only way that will be.

If we allow the Healer version to heal every melee round during the concentration, the character will be able to heal 4d6 HP and 6d6 SDC in the same time frame as it takes the Super Psionic version to do the same job for less than 1/3rd the cost in ISP and with 2d6 SDC more healing. Even factoring the downtime needed for the Healer version, the overall cost to amount healed still favors the Healer version: 8d6 HP and 12d6 SDC over 3 minutes for 12 ISP vs. 12d6 HP and 12d6 over the same 3 minutes for 60 ISP... 5 times the amount for a mere 4d6 HP more healing in the same span of time.

Just as Telekinesis (Super) is clearly a superior version of Telekinesis (Physical)... so too should Bio-Regeneration (Super) be a superior version of Bio-Regeneration (Healer).

Thank you for doing the math here for us
I totally agree.
Bio-Regeneration has a 'warm up time' (think of it as a casting time for a spell. You don't get the effects of the spell while you are casting it after all.)
Then, after it warms up/is cast you get your power.
But only after, not during.
Basically otherwise you have removed the entire warm up/casting time from the game AND given all such powers vast boosts.


This brings up an interesting question... if one can potentially disrupt a spell by interrupting the caster before it is cast... is it possible to disrupt these psi-powers by interrupting the concentration they need before the effects are resolved? Both Bio-Regeneration powers (Healer and Super), require 1 minute of concentration... that's 4 melee rounds where (supposedly) the character can do nothing... they can't attack, parry or dodge. Not sure if taking damage would also count as an interruption... but since pain can make it very hard to concentrate on healing... I am inclined to count it towards that.

So... assuming that one does suffer damage during the minute of concentration needed before the effects of these powers are realized... what do people imagine happening? Most likely the power is nullified... in that no healing will take place. Now, can the character simply start the minute of concentration over without having to pay more ISP... will he have to start from scratch and pay the cost again... or does he get some (or all) the ISP invested in the original use of the power back?
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

Unread post by kiralon »

I'd say he would have to spend the time but not the isp. He meditates to get himself into the right state to do it, and that takes a minute, he then does the heal which breaks the trance and spends the isp.
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

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RAW it is 8d6 HP or 12d6 SDC for the minor power. Per melee is a rate not a duration.

Where super excels is it can be dine every minute. The minor is every other. So by minute two the super is at 8d6 hp plus 8d6 SDC. It is ahead.

The best approach is to make it an add on. A minute of minor then a minute of super.
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

Unread post by Library Ogre »

AlanGunhouse wrote:It needs to be edited to say so, because it does not say anything about having a time it takes or a meditation time other than saying 1 minute. It should read - Trance Time: 1 minute, Duration: 1 melee with lasting effects


Really, I don't think many Palladium books have been edited since 1993. Even Power Descriptions tend to be the same from game to game, with a bare tweak here and there.
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

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Axelmania wrote:RAW it is 8d6 HP or 12d6 SDC for the minor power. Per melee is a rate not a duration.

Where super excels is it can be dine every minute. The minor is every other. So by minute two the super is at 8d6 hp plus 8d6 SDC. It is ahead.

The best approach is to make it an add on. A minute of minor then a minute of super.


RAW it says it can do 2d6 HP or 3d6 SDC per melee, one could alternate between the two... healing 4d6 HP and 6d6 SDC in the same amount of time as Super Bio-Regeneration... at 1/3rd the cost and getting 2d6 more healing. Even factoring the minute of down time for healing, one would be better served using this power under this interpretation. It really boils down to how much ISP one spends for the effect one gains, given that one only has so much ISP and it takes some time to recover it.

Now... why would any sane person spend 20 ISP to get less healing when they can spend merely 6 ISP to get more healing? Even though one can use the Super Psionic version faster, the end result does not outweigh the cost of such healing.

Over the course of 3 minutes, the Healer version can be used twice for a total of 8d6 HP and 12d6 SDC (alternating between the two) for a mere 12 ISP while the Super Psionic version can be done 3 times for a total of 12d6 HP and 12d6 SDC but costs 60 ISP. That is only 4d6 HP more healing but 5 times the cost. It may be faster and marginally better, but the cost to gain ratio is incredibly steep. 48 more ISP for a mere 4d6 HP of healing. In any game that would be a waste of a limited resource that can be used for other things. That much ISP could buy a TK Force Field that could last at least 10 minutes, and still have enough ISP left to pay the Healer version 3 more times... giving the psychic another 12d6 HP and 18d6 SDC worth of healing... plus the time needed to actually do the healing (including the original two sessions) for a total of 20d6 HP and 30d6 SDC and a nice safe area in which to heal... all for the same price of 60 ISP.

So... math wise... 20d6 HP and 30d6 plus a nice safe place to heal for 60 ISP is a wiser use of ISP than a mere 12d6 HP and 12d6 SDC but no safe place to heal for 60 ISP. No matter how you work the math... the Healer version comes out better than the Super ISP version with this interpretation.

Call me crazy... but a Super Psionic Bio-Regeneration should be better than the Healer version... even with the higher cost. The only way this would work is if the Healer version heals after the minute of concentration (as the Super Psionic version does). Even if the Healer version is as instant as the Super Psionic version (heals 2d6 HP or 3d6 SDC instantly returned at the end of 1 minute), the Super Psionic version will be better because of the time delay between uses of the Healer version (5 minutes to do what the Super version can do in 1 minute with 1d6 SDC less healing for the Healer version for only a cost increase of 2 ISP... much better cost to effect ration than the 48 ISP for a mere 4d6 HP more healing with the other interpretation).

So there you have the full analysis of the two powers. One interpretation makes a lesser version far more cost effective than the Super Psionic version... while the other preserves the (I hope) intended level of power between the two powers.

The sad thing is... all of this confusion could be avoided if Palladium Books would clarify such powers with new editions rather than just cut and paste and call that editing. While I love Palladium Books... this tendency of theirs to cut and past rather than properly edit (presumably to save time and get more products out) is probably the greatest source of problems that develop within games due to the tendency for different groups to interpret powers like these in radically different ways.
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

Unread post by Axelmania »

Sane person would do it if they had lots of ISP and needed to get back a lot of health very quickly.

Another less-PF advantage is that Super Bio-Regeneration being a super-psi can have its effects doubled by Psyscape's 3rd Eye while the lesser power can't :)

To solve the confusion we should probably just revert the lesser power to the predecessor in the Palladium RPG. 2nd level ability (remember when psi had levels like spells guys?) page 128. Took a full TEN minute trance, only restored 2d6 HP.

There wasn't any advanced ability. Healer OCC had a non-psionic version which only cost 6 instead of 8 though.

I think the lesser power would still be pretty darn useful healing 2D6 after 10 minute trance. Especially in SDC settings. I'd even let it heal an equal (not greater) amount of SDC once HP was full. Nerf to the max :)

I kinda wonder if "points per melee" was intended to be "points per minute" perhaps if Rifts was initially being designed with melee = minute system like the Palladium RPG before being changed to 15 seconds like the other more modern games.

Maybe some answer could be found going back to Revised HU... page 128 had powers divided into major and minor. Bio-Regeneration was a major power... so was empathy and astral projection, levitation, presence sense, object read, telekinesis and telepathy. These are all MINOR powers now...

Conversely, Hypnotic Suggestions was a minor power, it remained that in Nightbane but was made into a Master psi in Rifts/HU2/PF2.

Pg 129 the major power of Bio-Regeneration has the same stats that we see in the lesser physical psionic in subsequent books.

So I think the mistake that was made here, is rather than use the Palladium RPG's Bio-regen as the lesser and HU's Bio-Regen as the master, PRPG's was forgot. HU's got made minor, and they invented a whole new power of (not-so)"Super" Bio-Regeneration.

Beyond the Supernatural is the origin of the physical/healing/sensitive division though, so it might also have answers. Pg 76 didn't list bio-regen under healing. Actually I don't think bio-regen is here at all, you can only use psi to heal others, not yourself...

Closest might be a natural/genius using 'cleansing spirit' which (page 58) restored 10 damage after 24 hours meditation. No ISP cost but you had to make a skill roll or it failed.

I guess that's why magic was better. Cure Minor Disorders (p 107) and Heal Wounds (p 110) don't appear to prevent the use on oneself like the healing psi do, and work much faster.
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

Unread post by AlanGunhouse »

All the psionic healing powers are kind of poor, when you compare them to either Magic or to other psi powers. What Other psi powers take as long to use for example?
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

Unread post by Axelmania »

A lot of healing powers do. Astral projection needs a trance.

I think it is pretty useful. Not everything has to be mid-battle.
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

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I did not say it was not useful, just that it is limited compared to many other powers.
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Re: Psionic Bio-Reneneration

Unread post by Axelmania »

Its all context. Unless invisible things get close to you and you know they're there, see the invisible isn't useful.
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