Object read and crystal magic

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Whiskeyjack
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Object read and crystal magic

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

My group just encountered a couple of crystal magic items and I'm at a bit of a quandary with the characters using them.
It says in IaTEotW that an Object Read has to be used to know how to use the items. What happens if the psychic fails the impression and image roll? Or does doing the Object Read automatically allow them to understand how the items work?
As it is written, if they fail at an Object Read, they can never use the item, as they can never attempt to Object Read it again. Has anyone used crystal items in their campaign? If so, how did you handle operating them?
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Re: Object read and crystal magic

Unread post by The Dark Elf »

I GM'd this campaign (plus four sequels) running for over a decade!

I played it that if they failed then thats it. No other chance - go get a different crystal item. The players werent foolish enough to not pump in full ISP to increase their chances.

Ofc, you could rule that once theyve discovered to use one sword (or wand etc.) then they know how it works and could then operate with another perhaps?..
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Re: Object read and crystal magic

Unread post by Glistam »

The Dark Elf wrote:I played it that if they failed then thats it. No other chance - go get a different crystal item. The players werent foolish enough to not pump in full ISP to increase their chances.

Is this how Object Read worked in 1st Edition? In second Edition you just spend I.S.P. for a flat chance that's based on level only, not the amount of I.S.P. spent.
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Re: Object read and crystal magic

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My son's mind mage made one successful roll on 5 items. So 10 rolls.
Luckily it was on a crystal staff, so I allowed him to figure out how the crystal ring he found worked as well, but he doesn't know what it does yet (allows him to speak and understand all languages), as well as figure out how to use the crystal campfire ring (first power anyway).
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Re: Object read and crystal magic

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

Glistam wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:I played it that if they failed then thats it. No other chance - go get a different crystal item. The players werent foolish enough to not pump in full ISP to increase their chances.

Is this how Object Read worked in 1st Edition? In second Edition you just spend I.S.P. for a flat chance that's based on level only, not the amount of I.S.P. spent.

I just looked it up in 1st ed. 30% base chance +10% per 3 ISP. So spending 21 ISP gets you 100% success rate. This power seems a little broken and useless in 2nd edition.
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Re: Object read and crystal magic

Unread post by Prysus »

Whiskeyjack wrote:
Glistam wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:I played it that if they failed then thats it. No other chance - go get a different crystal item. The players werent foolish enough to not pump in full ISP to increase their chances.

Is this how Object Read worked in 1st Edition? In second Edition you just spend I.S.P. for a flat chance that's based on level only, not the amount of I.S.P. spent.

I just looked it up in 1st ed. 30% base chance +10% per 3 ISP. So spending 21 ISP gets you 100% success rate. This power seems a little broken and useless in 2nd edition.

Greetings and Salutations. Also, in first edition, I don't see any limitation of Object Read only having a single use (in fact, the Crystal Goblets specifically require multiple Object Reads). In addition, there's the option for "operation and history" which doesn't translate entirely into the Second Edition version, because why Object Read (2nd Edition) might tell you an item's general purpose it doesn't really give operating instructions (the Super Psionic: Telemeechanics almost fills some of that role, but not quite).

Whiskeyjack wrote:My son's mind mage made one successful roll on 5 items. So 10 rolls.

Wow, he really defied the odds, didn't he? I mean, at first level you have about a 50/50 chance on each roll, and with two rolls your odds per item go up considerably. Your odds only increase as you level up. Don't get me wrong, I've had that kind of luck myself.

Still, linking to a Crystal Magic item might require a bit more tweaking when converting to Second Edition. A few thoughts come to mind ...

1: Allow an Object Read to automatically work for the operation of these devices. They are, after all, psychic tools designed to be used. In first edition, you could just spend more I.S.P. to increase your odds, and there was nothing (that I see) limiting you from trying again if you fail. So in First Edition (where Crystal Magic was written up), if a player couldn't use it, you can say they had options they just didn't use and it's their fault. Not so much in Second Edition. If you want a balancing factor (or to help represent that 1st Edition feel without re-writing the power), you can use the Object Read of the Crystal Fortress as an example, allowing the Object Read to work automatically but more I.S.P. is drawn from the psychic in the reading (whether the psychic likes it or not). Probably not as much as the Crystal Palace, of course. But if you want a number, maybe just do the math for 3 I.S.P. for every 10% to equal a 100% success chance. So, at first level, 15 I.S.P. More powerful psychics pay less, but that's the benefit of being higher level and more experienced.

2: Allow multiple Object Reads on these devices only. These are psychic devices after all. So while a normal item may cause the impressions to fade or blur after an attempted Object Read (like footprints being blown away in a sandstorm), these are psychic items more attuned to such things, aspects of the device hold a much stronger impression and can be attempted more than once. If you want to place a limit, consider limiting it to two or three attempts, or even the best 2 out of 3. The odds are in favor of success, but that doesn't guarantee success either.

3: Allow a different power, such as Telemechanics (described as a combination of Object Read and Telepathy), to work on these items. That is a Super Psionic, and as such not as common. Also, as there are not a lot of machines in PF, not as useful as in a higher tech setting (meaning less likely for players to select it). However, it does help make the psionic more useful in the setting, and since the success is automatic, works around the Object Read percentage chance.

Anyways, just a few ideas off the top of my head. Truth be told, I've never actually used these items in my games, but I see talk of them often. Hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
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Re: Object read and crystal magic

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

Thanks for all the replies. I think I'm going to allow him to try again after a week. That's enough time for him to meditate on the object and focus his mind better.
This is the start of a side adventure I'm calling The Northern Prestida. It will link a home carved into the Algor Mountains of a member of the Prestida royal family to the ruins in the Old Kingdom Mountains.
There was a Crystal doorframe in one of the rooms of the house that he also failed his object read on. When they eventually return, he will get another chance to try again.
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Re: Object read and crystal magic

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I also allow re-rolls after level ups. Character has more knowledge and is more sure of oneself normally.
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Re: Object read and crystal magic

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kiralon wrote:I also allow re-rolls after level ups. Character has more knowledge and is more sure of oneself normally.

That was my original path I was going to take, but that can be an awful long time at higher levels. I think a week to meditate on it is a reasonable expectation.
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Re: Object read and crystal magic

Unread post by kiralon »

Whiskeyjack wrote:
kiralon wrote:I also allow re-rolls after level ups. Character has more knowledge and is more sure of oneself normally.

That was my original path I was going to take, but that can be an awful long time at higher levels. I think a week to meditate on it is a reasonable expectation.

The compensation for that is that being higher level they should be able to figure it out easier as well.
Then its take it to a specialist.
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Re: Object read and crystal magic

Unread post by The Dark Elf »

Everyones answered already so I wont repeat what theyve said but I thought youd be interested to know what I did with the crystal gateway in Archies house.

I went slightly off the written paranoia of the crystal kings and when the players told him of the gateway he LEFT the palace to see it (via a msytic portal but he left the palace none the less which the book says he would never do). The plan the players had was to open up the gateway in front of him and the troll of the group do a running body block at the king to push them both through!!

The rolls were good so I let them have it! the king was teleported hundreds of miles away and the bond was broken!! that s how they "saved" the Valley.

I say "saved" because the unexpected sudden weather patterns at the top of the world caused most citizens to vacate their homes to snow storms and cold exposure and Jon Halan was torn to sheds by 4 elementals. Oh and the king was very old and died but hey, thats role playing! lol
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Re: Object read and crystal magic

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These crystal items were actually found in the Algor mountains in the home of a member of the Prestida family. If they investigate enough, they should be able to make their way through the crystal doorway to the old kingdom mountains. We'll see if they end up in the valley. I've always wanted to run that adventure.
That's an interesting way to get him to leave. I thin most of the kids are much more straight forward. They'd probably grab him and make a run for it. :)
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Re: Object read and crystal magic

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Hmm... I always went with a 100% success rate for Crystal Magic items, since they're specifically made to work with psionics. Alternately, I might allow unlimited re-rolls. Applying rules as written to these items seems to nerf them excessively.
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Re: Object read and crystal magic

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I think the book needs to be re-written. For example, several characters are written as Minor Psionics, and have roughly 6 powers.
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Re: Object read and crystal magic

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I've settled on allowing him to try again after a week. It seems like a fair compromise. It's only been 3 days of game time in two sessions, so it won't be something he's rolling on several times a session. It should give him a good reward at the end when he is successful.
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Re: Object read and crystal magic

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Having written an article for the rifter (sub. but un-pub.) I reasureched all the rules concerned with psi devices. I came up with the following text.

Like with all Psi tech devices, the user of the device has 1) to be a psychic, and 2) has to learn how to use the device. Learning how to use the device can be from being taught from another psion that knows how to operate the device or through the use of the object read power. The use of the object read power will reveal the upper-most power imprinting of a device only. Without knowledge about psi-tech devices, even a psion handling the device will not know that is item is a psi-tech device, unless they keep the device on them for it's mundane use. Then months later, after the device's aura has changed to that of the holder's will the psion discover the upper-most power. If there are other powers beneath the upper-most, then they will be revealed in the same time frame as the 1st, or the use of the object read power for each.


If you want to see more of the text this is from (combo psi-device creator template and psi-device creation rules text, w/a few examples) then ask Wayne publish the article.
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Re: Object read and crystal magic

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That sounds like an interesting article drewkitty. Once he has the device figured out (he knows the basic use of energizing the staff) the rest of the powers will be figured out at the rate of one per month if he uses it regularly.
While we're on the topic of the Rifter, do you ever get feedback on a submission? Anything along the lines of "we think it's good, but needs tweaking" or even a straight out rejection if they don't plan to use it? Or are you in limbo from the time it goes in until it gets approved?
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Re: Object read and crystal magic

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

No response so far. So in Limbo about it.
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Re: Object read and crystal magic

Unread post by AlanGunhouse »

There are psi tech devices in some places...notably in BTS.
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