Area effect spells

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Whiskeyjack
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Area effect spells

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

I'm curious how everyone else plays area effect spells in regards to team mates.
For example:
The group is jumped in a narrow alley and are out numbered. The warlock casts Cloud of Slumber. It covers everyone in the alley, including the warlock and his team mates. Who would you have roll a save vs magic? Can the warlock exclude his team mates from the effects? Is he immune?

Example two:
Another alley, but the group is sneaking up on a bad guys lair. The thief has worked her way around to above the sentries. The warlock casts Heavy Breathing.
Two options for this one. 1) The warlock didn't work this out a head of time with the thief. Does the thief have to save? 2) It was worked out ahead of time that the warlock was casting this spell or the thief is very familiar with his tactics and this particular spell. Does the thief have to make a save?

I'm leaning towards having the spell caster be able to exclude people from spell effects, possibly with a skill roll to make sure they can control the spell well enough.
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I do not allow you to exclude team-mates in an AoE unless the spell specifically allows it. In the case of Heavy Breathing, I might allow the party to have it prepared as a tactic and so grant a bonus to the person subjected... but I'm not going to let you say "My warlock casts Cloud of Slumber on me a lot, so I have an immunity to it."

Though, TBH, that last would be pretty cool. Palladium just lacks a good way to represent that kind of ability.
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by Glistam »

AoE's will affect your teammates. Plan accordingly.
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by Lukterran »

Don't cast AoE spells on your team everyone is effected. That is unless your character doesn't care about your team. Then screw them if they get in the way.
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Re: Area effect spells

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If a dragon can be taken down with cloud of slumber you can be sure it will take your friends and yourself down too. One of the people I played with who would say before combat he would hit the frontline of the enemy with a 10ft wheel of fire or lightning field or whatever so stay out of the way, and if you didn't stay out of the way you would get hit too lol.
With heavy breathing since its magic that is making you scared rather than just something scary being prepared for it wouldn't help, unless that help made you deaf, I would allow that sound is the vector of attack and if you couldn't hear the heavy breathing you would be fine. Knowing it was coming would not be enough.
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

The only one who might not be affected is the spellcaster, and then only if the spell is cast in a certain way or if another spell is cast first which blocks the effects of the spell. None come to mind, though.
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by Lukterran »

Stone Gargoyle wrote:The only one who might not be affected is the spellcaster, and then only if the spell is cast in a certain way or if another spell is cast first which blocks the effects of the spell. None come to mind, though.


In regard to the spellcaster that created the AoE spell. I always have them immune to their own magic if it is a save vs. magic type of effect. They can auto-save. If it is a physical effect they aren't immune. But the can always cancel the spell etc...

So something like a Cloud of Slumber the spell caster would get an auto-save vs his own spells strength. But if they stepped into a river of lava their foot would be toast just like anyone else's.
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by kiralon »

Lukterran wrote:
Stone Gargoyle wrote:The only one who might not be affected is the spellcaster, and then only if the spell is cast in a certain way or if another spell is cast first which blocks the effects of the spell. None come to mind, though.


In regard to the spellcaster that created the AoE spell. I always have them immune to their own magic if it is a save vs. magic type of effect. They can auto-save. If it is a physical effect they aren't immune. But the can always cancel the spell etc...

So something like a Cloud of Slumber the spell caster would get an auto-save vs his own spells strength. But if they stepped into a river of lava their foot would be toast just like anyone else's.

I never got why a mage would be immune to his own magic anymore than a chemist is immune to any chemicals he has mixed or an armourer is immune to any bullets he made. In my games if you walk into a cloud of slumber you cast be prepared to sleep.
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

Yet the diabolist is automatically immune to all his own magic.
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Whiskeyjack wrote:Yet the diabolist is automatically immune to all his own magic.


Which, as an exception to the rule, is clearly noted.

Diabolism, as written, is weird. When you read through the section, there are so many exceptions and caveats and conditions that it's almost impossible to run it by the book.
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

I started reading through the diabolist a couple of days ago. I'm still reading. I don't think I'll ever fully understand it. :)
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Whiskeyjack wrote:I'm curious how everyone else plays area effect spells in regards to team mates.
For example:
The group is jumped in a narrow alley and are out numbered. The warlock casts Cloud of Slumber. It covers everyone in the alley, including the warlock and his team mates. Who would you have roll a save vs magic? Can the warlock exclude his team mates from the effects? Is he immune?

Example two:
Another alley, but the group is sneaking up on a bad guys lair. The thief has worked her way around to above the sentries. The warlock casts Heavy Breathing.
Two options for this one. 1) The warlock didn't work this out a head of time with the thief. Does the thief have to save? 2) It was worked out ahead of time that the warlock was casting this spell or the thief is very familiar with his tactics and this particular spell. Does the thief have to make a save?

I'm leaning towards having the spell caster be able to exclude people from spell effects, possibly with a skill roll to make sure they can control the spell well enough.

For spells that give a max area covered, the magic user can try to target/exclude areas so long as the total square-feet or Cubage is not exceeded. Such as Co-Smoke and Co-Slumber and Co-Adheesion
This does require the player to actively describing what his char is wanting to do.
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

Thanks for all the replies everyone. That helped clear everything up (by which I mean I'm even more unsure now :) ).
I thin the way I'll run it in my game is that a team mate who is forewarned will get a bonus on magic effects that affect the mind (say a +2 to save vs HF).
I like the idea of the mage being immune to his own magics, but there are so many spells that cause a magical effect that border on the physical as well, like Carpet of Adhesion.
Mark, can you clarify all of this officially in a new Mysteries of Magic book? :) Or was stuff like this covered in the first one? I haven't bought it yet, although I've had my eye on it at the store for awhile.
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

Can't the spellcaster cast it at a distance from himself, say a 20 foot area 30 feet away? Why would he cast it in the area around himself?
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by kiralon »

Stone Gargoyle wrote:Can't the spellcaster cast it at a distance from himself, say a 20 foot area 30 feet away? Why would he cast it in the area around himself?

If he's immune to it and casts it on himself it gives him a decent advantage if anything wants to come into the cloud and fight him hand to hand.
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

Stone Gargoyle wrote:Can't the spellcaster cast it at a distance from himself, say a 20 foot area 30 feet away? Why would he cast it in the area around himself?


If you're surrounded on all sides, being able to cast it with you at the center allows you to hit the maximum number of opponents.
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Stone Gargoyle wrote:Can't the spellcaster cast it at a distance from himself, say a 20 foot area 30 feet away? Why would he cast it in the area around himself?

Yes, a spell caster personally casting the C.o.S. spell can form a 'donut' around herself.(see above post for limiting factors.) Leaving just a single person hole in the middle. So she is not effected by the spell. Note that the player has to describe what the spellcaster wants to do to get 'non-standard' effects.

And the CoS spell says 20' x 20' x 20' (8000 cubic feet) with a range of 90 feet.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I do not allow the caster to manipulate spells that way. Unless the spell specifically allows such a cutout, it's not going to happen.
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

The palladium magic system needs a serious overhaul to clear up issues like this.
I love the spells, PPE (so much better than DND systems) and the types of casters, but so much is left to interpretation.
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Re: Area effect spells

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Whiskeyjack wrote:The palladium magic system needs a serious overhaul to clear up issues like this.
I love the spells, PPE (so much better than DND systems) and the types of casters, but so much is left to interpretation.

+1000 to overhaul
I do like the various spells having different costs so a simple light spell can be used almost at will, but I don't like that spell levels mean nothing. There aren't really spells ranging in difficulty to cast from 1-15, just spells you do have the ppe for and spells you don't have the ppe for, so anybody could have cast the spells that bound the old ones if they had the ppe.
I do like the structured form d&d had, and they certainly thought the spells out better and had decent rules for interrupting spell casting and dispelling magic.
IMO a starting level spell caster should not be able to cast spells that let you kill a dragon/god, little own start with them.
The magic system of dnd (2nd ed) works quite well with palladium with little modification, the player I have testing it currently has quite enjoyed it and the other players have only picked up on the difference because he calls himself a Magus rather than a wizard.
I'm am now probably going to do the same with priest, except that soldier priests (follow soldier type gods so they get hth soldier or merc) will get standard style priest magic, but the ones that get hth non men at arms will get the priest magic from dnd so they can heal better and do other groovy spells like cure disease and flamestrike lol.
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

I never got too in depth with spells from DND as I only played it a couple of times. The whole cast a spell and immediately forget it always rubbed me the wrong way. I may have to borrow some books to have a read through.
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by Library Ogre »

A lot of the Palladium system could use an overhaul, frankly. Spell levels do have a few impacts, however.

1) Spell level provides a general guide for how expensive a spell should be in PPE.
2) Spell level also determines the speed of casting
3) Spell level also determines the cost to acquire, and the minimum level of automatic acquisition.
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by Lukterran »

If you are going to clean up spell magic. I wouldn't use DnD as a template that is going backwards. I've actually already done it but it took changing the rules completely to fix the issue with spell magic.

Part of the biggest issue for me was that some spells being almost useless; as well as the save vs. magic based on a D20 system. With bonuses that could easily get into the +10 to save range. Magic that had a save vs. a spell strength of 12 made those spells almost a crap shoot of working or not.

Players default to choosing spells that will always work and have no save, or still have an effect even if the victim saves. Like Carpet of Adhesion, Wind Rush, Magic Net etc...
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Re: Area effect spells

Unread post by kiralon »

Well I have changed a lot of the rules already, and play mostly first ed with smatterings of second ed and others.
I have a Willpower stat that is the replacement for bonus to save vs magic and if high enough bonus to spell strength, that somewhat fixes the PE issue of bonus to save, and have perks that can do the same.
I also made the dnd spell list a different type of spellcaster that cant pick from any other list then that one, so no mixing and matching of spells, and the dnd spells tend not to be as schizophrenic/badly explained/strange. Check cure illness for example, says will work on common illnesses like the flu, but not the common cold lol.

"what do you mean I have to mix batsh*t and sulphur together in my hands, im getting me some gloves"

Spell casting speed isn't an issue for me, as its still first ed characters don't have a stupid amount attacks per round, so the 2 spells per round works fine (With a perk that allows for a third).
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