Familiar Link

[Vrykolas2k]

Why is this a 9th level spell?!
It just doesn't make that much sense, for what it does. 3rd or even 4th maybe, but... 9th?

[ShadowHawk]

Why is this a 9th level spell?!
It just doesn't make that much sense, for what it does. 3rd or even 4th maybe, but... 9th?

PPE amount I'm guessing.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Because it creates linked souls.
I have no problem with the level of the Fam. link spell

[Library Ogre]

It is a fairly permanent thing.

[ShadowLogan]

Why is this a 9th level spell?!
It just doesn't make that much sense, for what it does. 3rd or even 4th maybe, but... 9th?

Probably several factors:
1. duration (most 9th level spells last longer than 3rd-4th level spells)
2. PPE cost (much more than 3rd or 4th level spells)
3. scope of effects (linking, telepathy, bonus HP, etc) is more extensive.
4. an example of how complex it is to perform

[Axelmania]

I'd like more on how to make familiars more durable. I'd think it would be popular to pay diabolists to permanence-ward a bunch of useful spells on them like Invisibility Superior.

[ShadowLogan]

I'd like more on how to make familiars more durable. I'd think it would be popular to pay diabolists to permanence-ward a bunch of useful spells on them like Invisibility Superior.

Why durable? Familiars aren't intended to be combatants, but spies. Permanence-warding a living creature is supposed to be "extremely rare" (PF2E pg132), suggesting it wouldn't be popular.

Subject to GM fiat, one could also allow spells to be cast to effect either member of the linked pair or even both simultaneously since they are "an extension of each other." It might be limited by the 600ft communication range of the Familiar Link spell though. Spells based on sensory input (like line of sight, touch, etc) could in theory take advantage of the sensory exchange between the two.

[Vrykolas2k]

Why is this a 9th level spell?!
It just doesn't make that much sense, for what it does. 3rd or even 4th maybe, but... 9th?

Probably several factors:
1. duration (most 9th level spells last longer than 3rd-4th level spells)
2. PPE cost (much more than 3rd or 4th level spells)
3. scope of effects (linking, telepathy, bonus HP, etc) is more extensive.
4. an example of how complex it is to perform

And yet, in AD&D it's a 1st level spell and you can use it to get a pseudo-dragon, fae, and so on...

[drewkitty ~..~]

Why is this a 9th level spell?!
It just doesn't make that much sense, for what it does. 3rd or even 4th maybe, but... 9th?

Probably several factors:
1. duration (most 9th level spells last longer than 3rd-4th level spells)
2. PPE cost (much more than 3rd or 4th level spells)
3. scope of effects (linking, telepathy, bonus HP, etc) is more extensive.
4. an example of how complex it is to perform

And yet, in AD&D it's a 1st level spell and you can use it to get a pseudo-dragon, fae, and so on...

And yet this is not D&D.

[Vrykolas2k]

Why is this a 9th level spell?!
It just doesn't make that much sense, for what it does. 3rd or even 4th maybe, but... 9th?

Probably several factors:
1. duration (most 9th level spells last longer than 3rd-4th level spells)
2. PPE cost (much more than 3rd or 4th level spells)
3. scope of effects (linking, telepathy, bonus HP, etc) is more extensive.
4. an example of how complex it is to perform

And yet, in AD&D it's a 1st level spell and you can use it to get a pseudo-dragon, fae, and so on...

And yet this is not D&D.

I get that, however it's a bit less of a powerful spell in Palladium, and by the time you can cast it, a familiar is a lot less useful. (I wouldn't even bother casting it in Rifts unless you could find some MDC animal, which are supposed to be rare).

[ShadowLogan]

@Vrykolas2k
As drewkitty said, this isn't D&D. In D&D it might be a 1st Level Spell (I haven't played D&D2E in a long time, so don't remember much about the system, other than I hated THACO, HPs can be brutal, and spells are cast per day, I have no experience in 3E+), but the question you might want to consider is if Spell Level means the same thing in D&D system (of choice) as it does in Palladium.

Anyone with sufficient PPE can cast any level spell in Palladium provided they know the spell (that is in the rules PF2E pg183). Some classes might be more restricted than others (ex Wizard vs Mystic), but the more restrictive ones tend to have it as "granted" spell instead of a "learned" spell.

[Library Ogre]

I'd like more on how to make familiars more durable. I'd think it would be popular to pay diabolists to permanence-ward a bunch of useful spells on them like Invisibility Superior.

Take a look at the Nightbane book "Through the Glass Darkly"; it has options to expend permanent PPE to improve your familiar.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I'd like more on how to make familiars more durable. I'd think it would be popular to pay diabolists to permanence-ward a bunch of useful spells on them like Invisibility Superior.

Take a look at the Nightbane book "Through the Glass Darkly"; it has options to expend permanent PPE to improve your familiar.

When I have a mage have a familer the upgrading rules (through the glass darkly and mysteries of magic one) are what I go to. for two reasons.
1) there are more options in the upgrading rules.
2) I'm not filling a spell slot with a spell the char is only going to use once.

Then again, the HU's Mystic Study has the familer link spell as a part of it's "power cat. abilities".

[Razorwing]

I'd like more on how to make familiars more durable. I'd think it would be popular to pay diabolists to permanence-ward a bunch of useful spells on them like Invisibility Superior.

Take a look at the Nightbane book "Through the Glass Darkly"; it has options to expend permanent PPE to improve your familiar.

When I have a mage have a familer the upgrading rules (through the glass darkly and mysteries of magic one) are what I go to. for two reasons.
1) there are more options in the upgrading rules.
2) I'm not filling a spell slot with a spell the char is only going to use once.

Then again, the HU's Mystic Study has the familer link spell as a part of it's "power cat. abilities".

Actually... one will still need the Familiar Link spell in both instances (Through the Glass Darkly and Mysteries of Magic) as the upgrades are permanent expenditures of PPE in addition to the cost of the spell itself. The Familiar Link spell creates the initial bond with the familiar (and that PPE recovers as normal) which is then enhanced through the permanent expenditure of additional PPE. Without the Familiar Link spell, one can't create the bond with the familiar and thus can't enhance it.

Even the Familiar Link ability of HU Mystic Study characters still requires the (temporary) expenditure of PPE to create the initial link between Wizard and Familiar... though it costs significantly less for them (not exactly sure why since HU is supposed to be a lower magical environment that either Nightbane or Palladium... which should make it harder to perform magic, not easier).

Besides, most wizards that learn the spell aren't exactly loosing anything by doing so as most can learn any spell of any level at any time, provided they have something to learn from. Only Mystics and similar "dabblers" in magic that can only learn spells as they gain experience (levels) will sort of loose out when acquiring this spell (and many of these individuals usually don't have familiars anyways). Yes, it is often a spell that is only used once... but only if the familiar isn't killed. While the penalties inflicted from a familiar's death are steep, the benefits (not to mention the companionship) do make it attractive to perform again when one is able to (though likely with a more durable animal... and enhancements to make it even more so are quite likely too).

[drewkitty ~..~]

The Text in TtGD and MoM1 do not have the requirement of using the Familiar Link spell. So you statement that it is required is not within canon. In fact that text in one says that it is through years of interaction with the animal in which the link between the mage and animal is formed. And the upgrading is done during this time.
(along with the note that the animal is still 'wild'.)
[if I am incorrect, please show us where the text that specifically supports your statement is.]

Note, there is a spell that lets a mage upgrade familiars. But it is in the Rifter as part of the Familiar Wrangler article.
------------------
There are GMs that don't give mages any oppertunity to gain more spells except their 'level up' spells. Thus the waisted spell slot comment.

[Razorwing]

The Text in TtGD and MoM1 do not have the requirement of using the Familiar Link spell. So you statement that it is required is not within canon. In fact that text in one says that it is through years of interaction with the animal in which the link between the mage and animal is formed. And the upgrading is done during this time.
(along with the note that the animal is still 'wild'.)
[if I am incorrect, please show us where the text that specifically supports your statement is.]

Note, there is a spell that lets a mage upgrade familiars. But it is in the Rifter as part of the Familiar Wrangler article.
------------------
There are GMs that don't give mages any oppertunity to gain more spells except their 'level up' spells. Thus the waisted spell slot comment.

Your interpretation that a familiar bond can be formed without the use of the Familiar Link spell is what is not within canon. The very first sentence under animal familiars within "Through the Glass Darkly" even points to the use of rituals to create the link (suggesting the use of actual spells). "Mysteries of Magic" mentions the Familiar Link spell many times, referencing which spell casters are likely to acquire the spell and use it... and how much an alchemist will charge for a scroll with the spell (for those who want a familiar without needing to learn the spell first).

I am sorry, but since neither of these sources actually states the cost of creating such a bond with an animal, one must default to the only known way to create such a link... thus the Familiar Link spell is required. Whether it is learned or cast from a scroll (or even possibly cast by someone else for the wizard), the spell is needed to create the link.

While it may be possible to create such a bond after years of daily interaction with an animal, such a method is incompatible with PCs as their adventures are likely to take them far from such an animal for days, weeks, months or even years, thus ruining any accumulated effort to bind the animal (and until the animal is bound, it will not follow on its own). You see the fact that no cost was actually printed with these options as proof that there is no cost... which is the wrong way of thinking. The cost is clearly marked in the spell required to create the bond and these are merely additional options a wizard has... if he chooses to used them.

Even the HU Mystic Study characters have to expend PPE to create the link... so what makes you think that Nighbane or PF Wizards can create such a link without spending any PPE to do so? You say that the spell is not required... which means any magic user can get a basic (no enhancements) familiar bond at no cost (no need to learn the spell or purchase the a scroll with it or anything) because that cost isn't covered in the sections that discuss enhancing a familiar. Did it never occur to you that the cost wasn't in that section because the spell was already described in the main rules of the various games? In other words, they are expecting you to use the only means of creating that initial link... the Familiar Link spell, unless the specific character's class says they have another means of creating such a link.

Let's come at this from a different angle. There are two new OCCs in "Mysteries of Magic", correct. However, Palladium didn't print a full list of skills for them... just the ones they are trained in, the number of additional skills they get and which categories they can choose from. Why? Because they expect you to default back to the main list of skills presented in the core books for these new OCCs. It is the same reason why they don't state the cost of creating the familiar link... because the only ones who can create such a link are those who have the spell from the Core Books. They don't reprint the information because they feel it is obvious and they assume that if you are playing Palladium Fantasy, you have a copy of the core rules. Why waste space and word count on something that is already in a book you are likely to have?

As for what some GMs do or don't do (give wizards and other spell casters who can learn any spell of any level at any time) that doesn't change the fact that these wizards aren't limited to merely learning spells as they level. That is a problem with the GM, not the player (or their character)... and as mentioned above, there are ways around it (such as scrolls). Of course, if a player never goes looking for additional spells outside of their level increases, then they are also to blame for not taking advantage of this aspect of their character.

[Razorwing]

Some how I get the feeling that a reasoned argument isn't going to work with you, Drewkitty. I have a feeling that the only thing that will is using what has been written, word for word, as a blunt instrument is going to made any impact on you (and no, I am not talking about throwing the books at you... though... no... still not a good idea).

Pg 48 of Mysteries of Magic: Book 1, 1st column, 3rd paragraph.

"There are many ways of binding Familars. 'snip' Wizards and Forsaken Mages may learn a spell (Familiar Link)or purchase a scroll (with said spell) which enables them to bind an animal to their life force to become a Familiar. 'snip' "

The paragraph also mentions how other spell casters, including Druids and more nature oriented classes obtain familiars, but there is no mention that the bond can be formed without these methods for these classes.

Is that sufficient proof for you?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Pulled the books out…


And after rereading the MoM1 and the TtGD texts about familiars I will have to say that what you said is true when using the PF:MoM1 text.

Even thou, it does not hold true with the TtGD text about familiars. The TtGD does not Need the Familiar Link incantation. Which does not say that magic is not involved with creating their link. For magic is involved even with the TtGD familiar text.

[Axelmania]

2) I'm not filling a spell slot with a spell the char is only going to use once.

Depends on whether designing a character you're going for concept or maxing... but another way to look at it is (death of pet forbidding) even if you only CAST it once, you could be USING the spell all the time since it's working indefinitely and you can enjoy the pet's senses (including psychic ones in some cases) in many situations.

[Tyberius]

I forget the book and page, but there is cannon reference to a non magic using pirate who has a familiar. The story says he convinced or persuaded a magic user to cast the spell so that he got a magical familiar. If I find the passage, I'll come back here and post it.

[Library Ogre]

I forget the book and page, but there is cannon reference to a non magic using pirate who has a familiar. The story says he convinced or persuaded a magic user to cast the spell so that he got a magical familiar. If I find the passage, I'll come back here and post it.

It wouldn't be too difficult.

"Hey, Mr. Alchemist man. I want a familiar. Can you write me a scroll, in Eastern Human, that will let me cast that spell once?"
"Do you have gold?"
"I indeed do."
"Then yes. Give me a day or two."

Alchemist casts "Create Scroll" and uses it to create a scroll of Familiar Link, in Eastern Human. He collects his gold and moves on with his life. It's really the ideal transaction for him... it requires a lot of PPE, but carries no risk to himself and the work is relatively simple... the kind of thing any wizard could do.

[Axelmania]

The ability to make scrolls to sell to people could be more worth the investment in learning the spell than one's own personal use, true.

Plus if you keep your familiar safe, the extra damage capacity that you enjoy is pretty decent for increasing your own survival. Not as noticeable in Rifts and stuff that are MDC-dependent.

Was there some errata about familiars gaining their master's lifespan or is it ideal to pick long-lived animals?

[Library Ogre]

The ability to make scrolls to sell to people could be more worth the investment in learning the spell than one's own personal use, true.

Plus if you keep your familiar safe, the extra damage capacity that you enjoy is pretty decent for increasing your own survival. Not as noticeable in Rifts and stuff that are MDC-dependent.

Was there some errata about familiars gaining their master's lifespan or is it ideal to pick long-lived animals?

It's never been explicit for familiar link; "the two are now one" is about as close as you get to an explicit statement on it. TtGD had an ability that made it explicit.

[Zamion138]

Why is this a 9th level spell?!
It just doesn't make that much sense, for what it does. 3rd or even 4th maybe, but... 9th?

Probably several factors:
1. duration (most 9th level spells last longer than 3rd-4th level spells)
2. PPE cost (much more than 3rd or 4th level spells)
3. scope of effects (linking, telepathy, bonus HP, etc) is more extensive.
4. an example of how complex it is to perform

And yet, in AD&D it's a 1st level spell and you can use it to get a pseudo-dragon, fae, and so on...

And yet this is not D&D.

I get that, however it's a bit less of a powerful spell in Palladium, and by the time you can cast it, a familiar is a lot less useful. (I wouldn't even bother casting it in Rifts unless you could find some MDC animal, which are supposed to be rare).

Also remember you dont havevto be level 9 to cast it, you could lv1. Thats another huge diffrence between D&D and palladium.
If you dont have mystic spell casting, you could learn it lv 1 from the soul caldurun or taught to you, or buy a scroll, actually cant scroll it huh cause its ritual only..... but yeah lv 9 price and piwer and to figure it out on your own (gained by level progression) makes sense

[Zamion138]

I forget the book and page, but there is cannon reference to a non magic using pirate who has a familiar. The story says he convinced or persuaded a magic user to cast the spell so that he got a magical familiar. If I find the passage, I'll come back here and post it.

It wouldn't be too difficult.

"Hey, Mr. Alchemist man. I want a familiar. Can you write me a scroll, in Eastern Human, that will let me cast that spell once?"
"Do you have gold?"
"I indeed do."
"Then yes. Give me a day or two."

Alchemist casts "Create Scroll" and uses it to create a scroll of Familiar Link, in Eastern Human. He collects his gold and moves on with his life. It's really the ideal transaction for him... it requires a lot of PPE, but carries no risk to himself and the work is relatively simple... the kind of thing any wizard could do.

I thought scrolls couldnt be ritual spells?

[Library Ogre]

I thought scrolls couldnt be ritual spells?

Familiar Link isn't a ritual. Aside from it being a 9th level spell (and therefore slow), there's no reason you couldn't cast it in self-defense against a Hopper going after your family jewels.

Getting a scroll of familiar link should run about 5000-7000 gold. Not cheap, but certainly doable.

[Zamion138]

Goes to show you should read it closer, I kinda just assumed it was my bad....
It should be though hahaha

[drewkitty ~..~]

Also remember you don't have to be level 9 to cast it, you could lv1. Thats another huge difference between D&D and palladium.
If you don't have mystic spell casting, you could learn it lv 1 from the soul caldron or taught to you, or buy a scroll, actually cant scroll it huh cause its ritual only..... but yeah lv 9 price and power and to figure it out on your own (gained by level progression) makes sense

If your char is a Character Class mage type, it will be a vanishingly rare thing to able to select FL as a starting spell.

snip….
There are GMs that don't give mages any oppertunity to gain more spells except their 'level up' spells. Thus the waisted spell slot comment.

[Zamion138]

Also remember you don't have to be level 9 to cast it, you could lv1. Thats another huge difference between D&D and palladium.
If you don't have mystic spell casting, you could learn it lv 1 from the soul caldron or taught to you, or buy a scroll, actually cant scroll it huh cause its ritual only..... but yeah lv 9 price and power and to figure it out on your own (gained by level progression) makes sense

If your char is a Character Class mage type, it will be a vanishingly rare thing to able to select FL as a starting spell.

[quote="Zamion138"]
Ohhh for sure, its not common. But its doable, more so than having to wait all way to 9th lv. If it was important to you it could easily be had by lv 3 . Not claiming it a typical lv 1 casters spell.

[Zamion138]

Apologies for the terrible qoute editing

[drewkitty ~..~]

You can go back and re-edit that post by using the edit button in your post.
I do encurage you to do said editing cause of the mis-atribution of the part in the quote-box.

[Axelmania]

I thought scrolls couldnt be ritual spells?

Could always create a non-ritual version of the spell and make a scroll out of that. That must explain how that guy in Guild of the Gifted has a Scroll of Transformation.

Familiar Link isn't a ritual. Aside from it being a 9th level spell (and therefore slow), there's no reason you couldn't cast it in self-defense against a Hopper going after your family jewels.

The limit of 1 is of course a problem.

I did just think of 1 possible strategy though.

What if you gave your familiar the ability to read/speak (Eyes of Thoth and... well I dunno, maybe pick something which can already speak words like a parrot) and then had your familiar make its own familiar?

This would allow you a second familiar (familiar A can see anything its familiar B can see, so by extension you can too) and this gives your familiar extra HP so that it will be harder to kill. Win all around!

The only blocker is that I'm not sure if it would be possible to give a Scroll of Familiar Link to use by someone who isn't a mage. Wasn't there some restrictive wording? Then again, most spells do have wording talking about mages using them...

If your char is a Character Class mage type, it will be a vanishingly rare thing to able to select FL as a starting spell.

Strategically... if you had a small familiar, he could sneak in and read scrolls in a place where you could not sneak in. and you could learn more spells through Scroll Conversion by using your familiar's eyes.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I thought scrolls couldnt be ritual spells?

The Mysteries of Magic Book One specificly states that the Familiar Link spell can be put into a scroll.

If your char is a Character Class mage type, it will be a vanishingly rare thing to able to select FL as a starting spell.

Strategically... if you had a small familiar, he could sneak in and read scrolls in a place where you could not sneak in. and you could learn more spells through Scroll Conversion by using your familiar's eyes.

I would only consider allowing this if the familiar and mage had the shared sight modification.

Reading normal scrolls and books with the shared sight mod would be iffy too. Because the information would be filtered through a mind that is not literate/able to read

[ShadowLogan]

Why is this a 9th level spell?!
It just doesn't make that much sense, for what it does. 3rd or even 4th maybe, but... 9th?

While most spells in Palladium can be cast as long as you have the PPE (and know the spell), Familiar Link has a level requirement of 3 for the character, even though the spell is 9th Level.

[Axelmania]

I would only consider allowing this if the familiar and mage had the shared sight modification.

Reading normal scrolls and books with the shared sight mod would be iffy too. Because the information would be filtered through a mind that is not literate/able to read

I get the impression the spell has shared sight built in, page 207 of PF2 main "For the mage, the familiar is now a sensory extension enabling him to see, hear, smell, taste and feel everything the animal experiences."

I don't agree with the mind-filtering argument. Familiars aren't able to understand spoken language either (except from their master) yet it says "familiars make great spies, listening to conversations" so clearly that doesn't matter, so long as the mage can understand the language. That should apply to written language too.

Obviously the 15 PPE "Share Sight" ability from page 50 of Heart of Magic (and page 46 of TTGD) is less useful for an animal connected via the Familiar Link spell on page 207 of PF (and page 142 of Nightbane) since it already allows infinite animal>wizard vision communication. The only benefit would seem to be that it allows the familiar to see what the wizard sees, which I guess would be occasionally useful (normally the spell just allows the Familiar to know what their master "experiences" which is vague and may just refer to broad sensations like 'danger')

Share Sight is most useful for familiars who are connected by raw PPE by someone who does not have access to the Familiar Link spell. Like for example, as above, level 1 to 2 characters who want to see what a bird sees but can't wait to advance enough to be able to do it on the cheap.