Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge: Non-Magic Ranged Weapons

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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Prysus »

ShadowLogan wrote:Spear of Slaying

Greetings and Salutations. This one will require more thought, so I'll have to come back to this one a little later.

ShadowLogan wrote:Grappling Hook
Kawanga (WA&C of the Orient pg8)
Construction: A Kawanga with the grappling hook made from Black metal, each tip of the hook is tipped with KNM Glass that has a longer rope than normal for increased reach

While it does have reach, so does a Pike. That doesn't convince me it's a thrown weapon. The rope is more designed for entangle and the hook part more for stabbing (if necessary). You can find a W.P. Grapple Hook in PF2 main book. Yet it's not listed as a Thrown Weapon for a reason. Yes, it's a slightly different weapon, but a grapple hook is made by the Japanese doesn't mean it's a thrown weapon suddenly. Nice try though. I like the attempt.

ShadowLogan wrote:Steel Tree Long Bow Import
The launcher and Arrows here might be disqualified as the launcher is a non-PF import (not allowed under the grading criteria), and the arrows might require enchantment to use the Angel feathers (it might count as an enchantment, which isn't allowed)

So imported from Rifts? That's not allowed. And yes, I'm still figuring the Angel Feathers (taken from the enchanted section previously discussed) are enchanted. So this one is an extra big no-no.

Okay, that's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys.



P.S. I friend in real life is going through some stuff right now, so I've been spending some time trying to help him out. That's why I didn't post yesterday, and may result in some further distractions for me in the next few days. I apologize for any delays. I'll try to respond as I have time.
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Rifter #52; From Ruins to Runes (Living Rune Weapons; playable characters and NPC)
Rifter #55; Home Away From Home (Quorian Culture; expanded from PF Book 9: Baalgor Wastelands)

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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Glistam »

It seems to me that this contest hasn't technically ended, even though no posts have been made in over two months. So, here is my entry.

A particularly skilled thread-maker in the Wolfen city of Atwater found her considerable talents put to the test when she became presented with two highly unusual materials to experiment with. The first was a quantity of Black Iron which had already been forged into fine steel wire by a Dwarven Blacksmith. The second material was several spools of Chuna Thread brought to her by a Wolfen Ranger who "found" it during his time spent traveling in the Disputed Lands. Both high-quality items of exceptional rarity, she decided that rather than use each one individually she would combine them.

She experimented for weeks before finally finding a way to combine them into a unique metal thread. The combination of unique materials gave this thread a flat, non-reflective sheen and several other qualities - it did not burn easily, it did not cut easily, and it was incredibly durable. Unfortunately, not having a metallic sheen made it undesirable to the Weavers and the Tailors of the January Magic Tribe. She called it "Umbral Thread" due to the dark non-reflective nature of its metallic components. She had a limited quantity of it and after much deliberation, finally realized a good use for it - as a net.

She sought out and found a trusted Kobold Artisan who was skilled enough in Rope Works to turn the Umbral Thread into man-sized nets of superior quality. They had enough material to make three such nets, which were then sold to the Wolfen Military. These Umbral Nets were very well received and the Government would like more. Now Both the Artisan and the thread-maker are eager to acquire more of the materials and would be willing to pay adventurers handsomely if they could produce either the Chuna-Thread or the Black Iron which is needed.


Umbral Net

This net is made from a special combination of Chuna-Thread (Danzi Chuna-Cloth, Eastern Territories page 220) and Shadow Steel (Black Iron, Northern Hinterlands page 56), which was turned into a special metal thread through the secret techniques known to the Wolfen January Magic Tribe. In addition to all the normal properties of a net listed below, these nets also have additional properties.

Normal Properties (W.P. Net, Main Book page 60)
  • Use as a whipping weapon to do 1D4 damage.
  • Use to trip an opponent by entangling the foot, ankle or leg. Does no damage, but it knocks the victim to the ground and he or she loses initiative and one melee attack.
  • Use to parry an opponents attacks
  • Use to snare or entangle as below.
    • Can entangle as per page 45 of the Main Book
    • Snare an opponent's weapon by entangling it and pulling it out of the oppenents hand.
    • Snare an opponent by throwing the net over him or her. The intended victim must dodge or be netted — only characters with a spear, polearm or staff can parry a thrown net attack. If caught in the net, the victim suffers the following penalties: -8 to strike, -10 to parry and dodge, and running is impossible. This attack requires two hands and the net must be retrieved to be used again (a separate rope/drawstring can be added to allow the net to be pulled back if the attack misses but will still require a melee action to do so).

Special Properties
  • Due to Kobold craftmanship this net has superior weighting and balance, giving it +3 to damage, +1 to strike, and +1 to parry. (Blunt weapon bonuss, Main Book page 271).
  • The net strands thenselves are significantly tougher than standard rope and have an A.R. of 10 and 30 S.D.C. (Chuna-Cloth values improved by the Black iron as per the qualities of the metal) but those values are only applicable to those not trapped by it.
  • Opponents snared/trapped by this net require 4D4+4 melee rounds (or 1D4+4 minutes) to cut free of the net (4 times the usual duration normally required due to the strudiness of Black Iron and the Chuna-Cloth's exceptional resistance to cutting and tearing).
  • The net takes half damage from fire.
  • The net is waterproof.
  • The best benefit of this net, as the Wolfen warriors using it have recently discovered, is that when it has trapped a spell caster the unique metal threads have the strange effect of hampering the channelling of magic energy! What this means is that any spell caster trapped by this net suffers the penalties associated with having more than 50% of their body covered in metal, as per the Main Book pages 64 and 104.
Last edited by Glistam on Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Prysus »

Glistam wrote:It seems to me that this contest hasn't technically ended, even though no posts have been made in over two months. So, here is my entry.

Greetings and Salutations. Agreed, the contest hasn't technically ended. I had gotten distracted in real life for a week or so, and the lack of entries caused me to forget about it. Of course, even before the distraction there appeared to be little interest in this contest. I wonder if I'm too harsh of a judge. Or maybe it's just that ranged weapons in Palladium really just don't have a lot of options. Anyways, onto the entry!

Glistam wrote:A particularly skilled thread-maker in the Wolfen city of Atwater found her considerable talents put to the test when she became presented with two highly unusual materials to experiment with. The first was a quantity of Black Iron which had already been forged into fine steel wire by a Dwarven Blacksmith. The second material was several spools of Chuna Thread brought to her by a Wolfen Ranger who "found" it during his time spent traveling in the Disputed Lands. Both high-quality items of exceptional rarity, she decided that rather than use each one individually she would combine them.

She experimented for weeks before finally finding a way to combine them into a unique metal thread. The combination of unique materials gave this thread a flat, non-reflective sheen and several other qualities - it did not burn easily, it did not cut easily, and it was incredibly durable. Unfortunately, not having a metallic sheen made it undesirable to the Weavers and the Tailors of the January Magic Tribe. She called it "Umbral Thread" due to the dark non-reflective nature of its metallic components. She had a limited quantity of it and after much deliberation, finally realized a good use for it - as a net.

She sought out and found a trusted Kobold Artisan who was skilled enough in Rope Works to turn the Umbral Thread into man-sized nets of superior quality. They had enough material to make three such nets, which were then sold to the Wolfen Military. These Umbral Nets were very well received and the Government would like more. Now Both the Artisan and the thread-maker are eager to acquire more of the materials and would be willing to pay adventurers handsomely if they could produce either the Chuna-Thread or the Black Iron which is needed.

I like the story. Not only is it designed to flavor to the nets, but adds in adventure possibilities which is a really nice touch. :ok:

Glistam wrote:Umbral Net

While I like this net from my reading, I'm unfortunately going to have to disqualify it from the contest at this time. The net breaks at least one rule, and I think one restriction.

Hotrod wrote:Rules
+If you're submitting a thrown weapon, that weapon must be primarily for throwing. A javelin, throwing knife or throwing axe is ok, but a battle axe or a longsword is not.

Restrictions:
-No effective range under 30 feet.

Throwing the net is not the primary use. It's an additional/secondary (or even tertiary) use. And while there's no range listed for throwing the net, I doubt it's meant to be thrown over 30 feet. The description even discusses being attached with a drawstring, which I'm also skeptical is meant to be over 30 feet in length. Nets are also not listed under Targeting or Thrown weapons. I also skimmed (but did not read thoroughly) the Gladiator O.C.C. in Adventures on the High Seas, but didn't see anything there either. If you can find any evidence to make me reverse my ruling, I'm willing. My apologies for the unfavorable ruling. Please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
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Rifter #52; From Ruins to Runes (Living Rune Weapons; playable characters and NPC)
Rifter #55; Home Away From Home (Quorian Culture; expanded from PF Book 9: Baalgor Wastelands)

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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Glistam »

A fair assessment. I will gladly argue that the primary purpose of a net IS for throwing rather than the melee applications, but that's only half the battle. As for the range... I will deep dive my books and see what I can find.
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Glistam »

I have come up empty in Palladium Fantasy so far, but I did find that the W.P. Targeting skill on page 216 of Dead Reign lists the Typical Effective Range of a Net as 30 feet (9 m).

The net has melee capability but I submit that there are many other weapons designed to perform those melee functions as their more primary role and, arguably, better. I also submit that the net as a weapon evolves from the tool (a fishing net), and that tool is clearly meant to be used as a thrown/ranged device (unless fishermen are in the habit of whipping or entangling fish as the primary use of their nets?). I would also suggest that it was the Gladitorial combat arena where the net saw it's expansion from having a simple ranged immobilizing attack to one with more flair, drama, and utility.

In summary, per the W.P. the Net is typically a Slaver and Gladiator weapon - While the Gladiator may favor the melee capability, I stongly believe it's the Slaver reveling in the ranged functionality who uses the net for its true purpose.
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by kiralon »

Well the book does say that entanglement is the regular usage in the wp description, but in my experience the tripping and entanglement features aren't used. People get a net out to throw it on someone or something, and since it takes 2 hands to hold it to throw it that's how it's always held by the players.
However in the rules it does say that thrown needs to be the primary use but the book says entanglement is, but that's likely to be because a gladiator needs to drop his trident to throw a net, and that will put him at a major disadvantage when he is fighting the sword and board gladiator, so he will keep it for the entangling attack. Oddly enough though that is impossible in palladium because the trident is 2 handed (and the extra beaked axe isn't, I wonder what weapon the beaked axe in the spears section is supposed to be) so the gladiator cant use them both at the same time like the classic gladiator.
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Prysus »

Glistam wrote:I have come up empty in Palladium Fantasy so far, but I did find that the W.P. Targeting skill on page 216 of Dead Reign lists the Typical Effective Range of a Net as 30 feet (9 m).

Greetings and Salutations. Nice find. While this is from a Dead Reign (ergo, not PF) book, I'd be willing to accept the range limitation. That means it comes in at exactly 30 feet (which means technically it's not "under 30 feet"). With that said, there are a few other notes I'll add about this allowance:

1: This entry in Dead Reign does NOT mean it's a thrown weapon. The Dead Reign entry also includes Tridents and Pitch Forks which aren't really ranged weapons either.
2: While I am accepting the effective range from this book (as it is the only Palladium source I'm aware that lists a range), the weapon itself is still listed in a PF book (W.P. Net). This does NOT open the doorway to Bricks and Stones (also listed in the Dead Reign book). If I could find a ruling in a PF book, it would override any ruling in the Dead Reign book.

These two notes do not necessarily apply to anyone in particular, but I want to clarify them now just in case. With that said, I'll now move onto the next point of contention ...

Glistam wrote:The net has melee capability but I submit that there are many other weapons designed to perform those melee functions as their more primary role and, arguably, better.

I could also argue that a Long Bow does the job of a Short Bow better, so that disqualifies short bows as a ranged weapon. However, another weapon doing the same job better doesn't actually mean much.

Glistam wrote:I also submit that the net as a weapon evolves from the tool (a fishing net), and that tool is clearly meant to be used as a thrown/ranged device (unless fishermen are in the habit of whipping or entangling fish as the primary use of their nets?).

And I could argue a war hammer evolved from an actual hammer. So does that mean war hammers primary use is to hit nails?

Glistam wrote:I would also suggest that it was the Gladitorial combat arena where the net saw it's expansion from having a simple ranged immobilizing attack to one with more flair, drama, and utility.

I'm okay with this suggestion. I'd have personally suggested the melee aspects arose out of necessity. If using a ranged weapon (throwing net), especially one with such a short range, and someone closes into melee range, you have to learn to adjust or the weapon will fall out of use.

Glistam wrote:In summary, per the W.P. the Net is typically a Slaver and Gladiator weapon - While the Gladiator may favor the melee capability, I stongly believe it's the Slaver reveling in the ranged functionality who uses the net for its true purpose.

I would agree with you in concept as well. The only problem with that is what the book actually tells us. I'll quote it for you ...

Palladium Fantasy, Second Edition; page 60 wrote:W.P. Net: Primarily a gladiator or slaver's skill, the net is used to trip an opponent (same as the grappling hook), parry or snare/entangle.
[snip]
In addition to the regular entangle attack, there are two other types of attacks possible with a net:

The book tells us the the regular (primary) attack is to "entangle." Throwing the net is listed as one of the "other" attacks (which is why I said secondary or tertiary earlier). However, let's also look at the combat bonuses. Interestingly, it has NO bonuses when thrown. That means swords ("not designed for being thrown") will have better chances to hit (with a few levels at least) when thrown then a net! Weird, but true. And as I do my research, here's where I think the crux of the problem lies ...

Palladium doesn't (appear to) consider a net thrown over someone's head as a weapon. While a type of attack, it's not a weapon. What brings me to this conclusion is the reference back to W.P. Grappling Hook. We know that its primarily used for climbing/scaling walls (or even boarding vessels). However, as a weapon it's use is for tripping an opponent (this can be found in both W.P. Grappling Hook and W.P. Net).

So as I am trying to NOT just overrule the book, what I'd need is not personal arguments saying the book is wrong, but something within the book (even if in a Compendium) to make me rule it as a different weapon (such as the Arbalest discussion earlier). I'll remain open to new information and viewpoints, while trying to figure out if there's a way I can make this entry work.

As a judge the thing I'm finding I dislike the most about this contest is Palladium's treatment of ranged weapons (which has made making any favorable rulings a nightmare!). I suppose this is because they figure ranged combat and sniping without a chance not much fun (and they favor the ranged combat style like in the movies where the two shooting end up with guns pointed at the others head - ergo, in melee range - and this is something that's actually been admitted). Anyways, that's where I'm currently viewing the situation. I figure by setting out the information I'm currently viewing, it gives others the best chance to compile a counter case. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Glistam »

I find your discourse fair and reasonable. Before I move on, I only wish to rebut one point.
Prysus wrote:
Glistam wrote:In summary, per the W.P. the Net is typically a Slaver and Gladiator weapon - While the Gladiator may favor the melee capability, I stongly believe it's the Slaver reveling in the ranged functionality who uses the net for its true purpose.

I would agree with you in concept as well. The only problem with that is what the book actually tells us. I'll quote it for you ...

Palladium Fantasy, Second Edition; page 60 wrote:W.P. Net: Primarily a gladiator or slaver's skill, the net is used to trip an opponent (same as the grappling hook), parry or snare/entangle.
[snip]
In addition to the regular entangle attack, there are two other types of attacks possible with a net:

The book tells us the the regular (primary) attack is to "entangle." Throwing the net is listed as one of the "other" attacks (which is why I said secondary or tertiary earlier).

The book does not tell us that entangling is a "primary" attack. It tells us that the net can do a "regular entangling" attack (as in, per the combat definition section), as well as two other types of attacks it then proceeds to describe. It never calls out any of the five (5) types of available attacks as more or less significant (primary, secondary, tertiary, etc) to the user. Whereas throwing is specifically called out for Polearms, Battleaxes, and Swords in those W.P.'s as something those weapons are not designed to do.

That said, I've prepared a secondary entry.

A grizzled old woodsman stood in the clan hall of the Northolme Dwarves. He was talking to a representative of the master craftsmen known as 'The Hex.' He wished to utilize their services. "These are the best and most unique arrowheads I've found in all of the world," he said as he spilled out a small sack filled with three types of unique arrowheads. "Think The Hex can make 'em better?" The pile between them consisted of Broadhead arrowheads from the Shadow Colonies, Multi-Blade arrowheads from the Western Empire, and Whistler arrowheads from the Baalgor Wastelands.

The representative examined one of each. "I don't think they can do much with this one," he said, looking at a Broadhead arrowhead. "But these other two have some intricacies which can benefit from our skills. This won't be cheap, you know."

"Of course," the old man responded. "But you need to use these ores for their construction." He dumped out another sack and two different metals tumbled out. The representative didn't recognize the black iron ore but his eyes went a little wide at the Korobite. "Obviously this isn't enough for how many I need, but I have more of both which I will provide once we've made this deal." He smiled at the shocked Dwarf, who simply nodded.

"How many do you need?" The Dwarf asked.

"As many as you can make with this," the old woodsman replied. He then whistled, and four handlers who had been waiting outside walked in with two medium-sized chests. They set the chests down and backed away while the old man pulled out a key and unlocked each one. He flipped up the lids and revealed that each chest was full of the two metals. "Now," he said confidently. "Let's talk price."

--------------------


"You want me to what?" The wizened old Elf asked incredulously. "I am not a factory of arrows, you idiotic barbarian. Especially with this... this... collection of absurd materials. Flexible white metal? Wood as hard as stone? Where did you even acquire such ludicrous things? And don't even get me started on those pompous arrowheads you expect me to use. This whole endeavor is just insulting."

"Look, I mean no offense Everall, but the fact is that these are special arrowheads and I want to make sure they're properly built into quality arrows. And these materials are special in their own way. Like the Yellow Wood you favor. Just different. But, I can see you aren't interested. I guess I should pack up and start the trek to Rankin, in Timiro. What's that Fletcher's name there? He'll probably help me."

"Now you insult me further by mentioning that classless hack Magistar? He doesn't even-"

The woodsman cut him off. "Yep, that's him. You know, I thought about going there with this request first. But I didn't want to put these quality arrowheads on inferior arrows." Everall raised an eyebrow at hearing that. The woodsman continues, silently pleased. He pointed to his longbow propped up near the door. "Plus, you made me that special longbow years ago and it's served me well since then. Even saved my life on more than one occasion. How could I justify going to Magistar when the best Fletcher was right here?" The old woodsman smiled at Everall and waited to see if flattery would succeed where money had failed.

"Well of course, if you want the best, there's no-where else to go," Everall said confidently and immodestly. He sighed and looked at the materials again. "There's a waiting list, and it won't be cheap," he announced as he carefully picked up the arrowheads and all the other raw materials the woodsman had laid out.

"Of course," the woodsman said, grinning. "Nothing of real value ever is."

--------------------


Treymon's Eclectic Arrows

This ranged weapon starts as a "standard" longbow from the Fletcher Everall (Eastern Territories page 171). The longbow has a base effective range of 720 feet and all arrows fired from it inflict an additional +3 to damage.

The arrows this weapon fires, however, are far from "standard." Treymon spent years traveling the Palladium world and paid close attention to the different types of bows and arrows in use throughout the world. When he finally had collected a reasonable sampling of them (as well as the materials for their construction), he then sought out the best craftsmen in the world to combine them. He now believes he possesses several potent varieties of some of the most lethal, non-magical, man-sized ranged weaponry in the world. The various arrows he had made and keeps in his quiver are as follows:

(Note: all arrows described below are Long Bow arrows)

White Iron shaft with a Korobite coated Black Iron "Whistler" arrowhead: Treymon likes to use this arrow to start the battles. +2 to strike, 2D6+4 damage, does damage (or extra damage) to those with a vulnerability to silver, enemies hearing this arrow fly through the air for the first time must save vs a H.F. of 10, add 40 feet to the arrow's normal range, arrow shaft ignores the first 20 points of damage and takes half damage from lightning, arrowhead holds its edge 10× longer than standard steel and takes half damage from fire.
(Sources: Everall's arrow crafting (Eastern Territory pg 171), The Hex craftsmanship (Eastern Territory page 80), Korobite properties (Northern Hinterlands page 55), White Iron properties (Northern Hinterlands page 56), Black Iron properties (Northern Hinterlands page 56), Ab'al's Whistler arrowheads (Baalgor Wastelands page 133-134))

White Iron shaft with a Korobite coated Black Iron "Multi-Blade" arrowhead: This arrow sacrifices some damage for accuracy, but sometimes is worth it. +2 to strike, 2D6+12 damage, does damage (or extra damage) to those with a vulnerability to silver, add 40 feet to the arrow's normal range, arrow shaft ignores the first 20 points of damage and takes half damage from lightning, arrowhead holds its edge 10× longer than standard steel and takes half damage from fire.
(Sources: Everall's arrow crafting (Eastern Territory pg 171), The Hex craftsmanship (Eastern Territory page 80), Korobite properties (Northern Hinterlands page 55), White Iron properties (Northern Hinterlands page 56), Black Iron properties (Northern Hinterlands page 56), Multi-Blade arrowheads of House Bereggia (Western Empire page 127))

Yellow Wood shaft with a Korobite coated Black Iron "Multi-Blade" arrowhead: Treymon would consider this his "standard" arrow to use when he needs his full range. +1 to strike, 2D6+14 damage, does damage (or extra damage) to those with a vulnerability to silver, add 40 feet to the arrow's normal range, arrow shaft is twice as difficult to ignite as normal wood but burns twice as hot, arrowhead holds its edge 10× longer than standard steel and takes half damage from fire.
(Sources: Everall's arrow crafting (Eastern Territory pg 171), The Hex craftsmanship (Eastern Territory page 80), Korobite properties (Northern Hinterlands page 55), Yellow Wood properties (Eastern Territory pages 42 and 224), Black Iron properties (Northern Hinterlands page 56), Multi-Blade arrowheads of House Bereggia (Western Empire page 127))

Stone Wood shaft with a Korobite coated Black Iron "Multi-Blade" arrowhead: This is Treymon's hardest hitting arrow, and one he doesn't hesitate to use when the enemy is within a shorter range. +1 to strike, 3D6+12 damage, range is only half normal but add +20 feet to that, arrowhead holds its edge 10× longer than standard steel and takes half damage from fire.
(Sources: Everall's arrow crafting (Eastern Territory pg 171), The Hex craftsmanship (Eastern Territory page 80), Korobite properties (Northern Hinterlands page 55), Stone Wood properties (Northern Hinterlands page 59), Black Iron properties (Northern Hinterlands page 56), Multi-Blade arrowheads of House Bereggia (Western Empire page 127))

Yellow Wood shaft with an "Arrowhead Quill" arrowhead: Not the hardest hitting of his arrows, but Treymon has found the barbed quills to be quite effective for enemies he needs to chase or slow down. +1 to strike, 2D6+2 damage, add 40 feet to the arrow's normal range, arrow shaft is twice as difficult to ignite as normal wood but burns twice as hot, arrowhead quill will embed itself into the flesh and muscle under the skin of the enemy, requiring it to be "dug" and/or "pulled" out like giant a giant splinter, causing another 1D4 points of damage to remove it. Not removing the arrowhead quill causes an additional 1D4 points of damage an hour, and healing can NOT be performed until after the arrowhead has been removed. Having one stuck in the character's body causes debilitating pain (reduce speed by 30% if shot in the leg, 10% for anywhere else on the body and -1 to all combat moves such as strike, parry, etc.)
(Sources: Everall's arrow crafting (Eastern Territory pg 171), Yellow Wood properties (Eastern Territory pages 42 and 224), Arrowhead Monster Quills (Northern Hinterlands page 93))

Stone Wood shaft with an "Arrowhead Quill" arrowhead: Similar to the Yellow Wood arrow, this hits a little harder but sacrifices a lot of range to do so. +1 to strike, 3D6 damage, range is only half normal but add +20 feet to that, arrowhead quill will embed itself into the flesh and muscle under the skin of the enemy, requiring it to be "dug" and/or "pulled" out like giant a giant splinter, causing another 1D4 points of damage to remove it. Not removing the arrowhead quill causes an additional 1D4 points of damage an hour, and healing can NOT be performed until after the arrowhead has been removed. Having one stuck in the character's body causes debilitating pain (reduce speed by 30% if shot in the leg, 10% for anywhere else on the body and -1 to all combat moves such as strike, parry, etc.)
(Sources: Everall's arrow crafting (Eastern Territory pg 171), Yellow Wood properties (Eastern Territory pages 42 and 224), Arrowhead Monster Quills (Northern Hinterlands page 93))

Panath Tree wood shaft with a Korobite coated Black Iron "Multi-Blade" arrowhead: This was supposed to be good against Vampires, but Treymon was pleasantly surprised to find these arrows very effective against all undead - this has become his arrow of choice against such monstrosities. +1 to strike (+3 to strike the undead), 2D6+12 damage (4D6+12 damage to the undead), does damage (or extra damage) to those with a vulnerability to silver, add 40 feet to the arrow's normal range, arrow shaft burns amazingly fast at very high heat, arrowhead holds its edge 10× longer than standard steel and takes half damage from fire.
(Sources: Everall's arrow crafting (Eastern Territory pg 171), The Hex craftsmanship (Eastern Territory page 80), Korobite properties (Northern Hinterlands page 55), Panath Tree properties (Dragons and Gods pages 111-112), Black Iron properties (Northern Hinterlands page 56), Multi-Blade arrowheads of House Bereggia (Western Empire page 127))

To be honest, I'm not sure how this should be judged, or if I even formatted it properly. Do I just pick one arrow to pair with the bow? The bow would be paired with a quiver that contains an assortment of all these arrows.

I'd also like to go on record as stating that I really dislike how Palladium just introduces N.P.C.'s who can give special bonuses to items they craft with no explanation of how they do it (or more accurately, with no explanation of how a P.C. could achieve that ability or one similar).
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Lukterran »

So you can't just have a Great Horn dragon with a giant thrown weapon scaled up to full size? PS: 42-52 (Supernatural) minimum of 42.

"Supernatural characters can hurl their maximum carrying weight foot per P.S. point. Damage from these heavy thrown objects is 1D6 +1D6 points per every 20 pounds"

Carry Weight 2100lbs minimum = 106D6 or 1D6x100 +6D6 (Not going to be maximum weight but even a fraction of this is insane)

PF Main Book page 61 under Targeting skill, "The average giant weapon does one additional die of damage plus P.S. bonus, and range is increased by 20%."

So PS of 42 would be +27 to damage of PS damage bonus.
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Prysus »

Lukterran wrote:So you can't just have a Great Horn dragon with a giant thrown weapon scaled up to full size? PS: 42-52 (Supernatural) minimum of 42.

"Supernatural characters can hurl their maximum carrying weight foot per P.S. point. Damage from these heavy thrown objects is 1D6 +1D6 points per every 20 pounds"

Carry Weight 2100lbs minimum = 106D6 or 1D6x100 +6D6 (Not going to be maximum weight but even a fraction of this is insane)

PF Main Book page 61 under Targeting skill, "The average giant weapon does one additional die of damage plus P.S. bonus, and range is increased by 20%."

So PS of 42 would be +27 to damage of PS damage bonus.

Greetings and Salutations. To answer your question: Correct, you cannot. There are a variety of reasons this isn't allowed ...

Hotrod wrote:Rules
+You may use any canon portable ranged weapon or throwing weapon design found in the Palladium world (to include the published Palladium Fantasy books, Compendiums, and "Official" Rifter material). The weapon must be listed somewhere in canon as a weapon (a large rock doesn't count).

So first you'd have to find a listed weapon weighing 2100 lbs. Yes, I'm aware of the quote from the front of the PF2 main book, but that discusses weight, not specific weapons. The rule also states large rocks don't count. This is because while you can probably find a 2100 lb. rock, and we have rules for how much damage it would do, we do not have any 2100 lb. rocks actually stated out a weapon in the books.

Note: In other words, we have a general rule for how much damage 2100 pounds will do, whether it's a tree, a rock, a wagon, a bronze statue, a really heavy person, etc. However, none of those objects are specifically stated out as a weapon inflicting 106D6 damage, and as such none of them are acceptable entries into this contest.

Hotrod wrote:Restrictions:
-No giant-sized weapons.

And that rules out you making the 2100 pound rock giant-sized.

Note: Making it giant-sized would have increased the weight to the point you probably couldn't have thrown it anymore as we know that giant-sized weapons do increased damage due to extra size and weight (PF2, page 269). Though we don't have specific rules on how much weight to add, I'd say the best rule we could go by is the one from the Ogre write-up which mentions they are 50-100% bigger (PF2, page 304) as a race. As such, a giant-sized weapon would likely be at least that much heavier as well.

Hotrod wrote:Restrictions:
-No character-specific bonuses can be included, including skills, racial bonuses, or O.C.C. (Note: the longbow has some O.C.C. restrictions, but is usable by all, so it is permitted)

Judging Criteria:
+For a special feature to count, it must be usable by anybody. Any special requirements of strength, magic powers, giant size, psionics, etc, will not count.

If you want the weapon to count, the weapon can't be restricted to only a small subset. It should, in theory, be usable by anybody. So a weapon only usable by characters with Supernatural Strength isn't allowed, because it's dependent on the character for the damage and not the weapon itself.

Note: We could try to get technical and argue some races can't use a long bow (or other weapon) due to their racial write-up. However, once again, that's a result of the racial write-up. The race prohibits use of the weapon, the weapon does NOT prohibit the race.

Okay, that should be all for now. Hopefully I'll be back a bit later today for judging the last entries by Glistam. Holidays and all slowed me down a bit. Farewell and safe journeys to all.
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Prysus »

Glistam wrote:The book does not tell us that entangling is a "primary" attack. It tells us that the net can do a "regular entangling" attack (as in, per the combat definition section), as well as two other types of attacks it then proceeds to describe. It never calls out any of the five (5) types of available attacks as more or less significant (primary, secondary, tertiary, etc) to the user. Whereas throwing is specifically called out for Polearms, Battleaxes, and Swords in those W.P.'s as something those weapons are not designed to do.

Greetings and Salutations. I've been giving this a fair bit of thought over the last few days. As an individual, I'm not entirely convinced that's what the passage means. With that said, this is Palladium and sometimes a sentence can be interpreted more than one way. You've made a compelling case, and this will be my ruling on the matter ...

1. I'm making the rule from this point/post forward that nets shall not be considered ranged weapons. Note: If such a ranged contest ever occurs again in the future, this ruling could very well be readdressed.
2. I'm going to allow your (Glistam's) original net entry. Since it was submitted before I made the above ruling, that entry will be allowed as an exception. I like having more entries and you've made a good case, so I'm going to let it in. To make the current entry allowable we've had to import a ruling from Dead Reign, questionable wording in the W.P., and I'm fairly sure some questionable rulings by the time I'm done judging it. As a rules lawyer, I'm not comfortable with that much bending of the rules. However, as a G.M. and a judge, I think a good, reasonable argument should sometimes be rewarded. This is one of those cases (in my opinion).

I'll judge the net and the other entry later (maybe later today). If by some chance I don't give a ruling by the end of Sunday, I hope someone posts in this thread again I'll be sure to do it Monday. I sometimes get distracted (especially with the holidays), but a new posts always brings my attention back. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Hendrik »

Hi there,

I am following this thread with excited interest. Alas, I will probably not have the time to take part.

That said, allow me to submit that I think ruling out a net as an eligible ranged weapon seems worth reconsidering as by the same reasoning a dagger or a spear - both weapons for melee and ranged combat, contrary to a sword - have no place in the contest as well. There is no range limit in the rules. Thus, the deciding factor is not "may be thrown at all" but has to be "designed for some ranged use", i.e. sufficiently balanced and known for its ranged use. A net is that IMO. It is, to my best ken, thrown not unlike a frisbee with weights attached to the ends on the outer "rim".

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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Prysus wrote:While it does have reach, so does a Pike. That doesn't convince me it's a thrown weapon. The rope is more designed for entangle and the hook part more for stabbing (if necessary). You can find a W.P. Grapple Hook in PF2 main book. Yet it's not listed as a Thrown Weapon for a reason. Yes, it's a slightly different weapon, but a grapple hook is made by the Japanese doesn't mean it's a thrown weapon suddenly. Nice try though. I like the attempt.

I can see the argument that it has the reach and is like a Pike, but I can also see it as being a thrown weapon given that to reach the required distance it has to be thrown by the user. That only the Japanese have developed it into a weapon I don't think changes the fact that a grappling hook can be designed as a weapon as that is more an indication of cultural limitation that anything else. Nor do I see a requirement that the weapon has to be for straight combat, and can't be for sneaky combat.

You still haven't gotten back to the "Spear of Slaying" entry from the first page.

Prysus wrote:Greetings and Salutations. Nice find. While this is from a Dead Reign (ergo, not PF) book, I'd be willing to accept the range limitation. That means it comes in at exactly 30 feet (which means technically it's not "under 30 feet"). With that said, there are a few other notes I'll add about this allowance:

RUE pg328, Robotech 2E Manga Size Main Book (pg285, Regular-size should also have it not sure on the pg#) same skill.

One could argue that Net is or is not a ranged weapon, but spells like "Magic Net" (PF2E pg195, 20ft range per level) and net launchers (Rifts) show that it can be used like a ranged weapon by default. Now net launchers in Rifts AFAIK don't have a corresponding item in PF, though I suppose an enterprising individual might adapt ranged weapon launchers (or siege weapons) to fire a special cargo (ala trick arrows).

Prysus wrote:Note: Making it giant-sized would have increased the weight to the point you probably couldn't have thrown it anymore as we know that giant-sized weapons do increased damage due to extra size and weight (PF2, page 269). Though we don't have specific rules on how much weight to add, I'd say the best rule we could go by is the one from the Ogre write-up which mentions they are 50-100% bigger (PF2, page 304) as a race. As such, a giant-sized weapon would likely be at least that much heavier as well.

PF2E on pg308 (tail end of the Troll race) mentions that giant-size weapons have a weight x3-5 more than human size versions.

In the disputed case though I'd treat the weight as already representing "giant size" as there are no rules for a giant's giant-size (as the Dragon is technically already giant size IINM).

Prysus wrote:If you want the weapon to count, the weapon can't be restricted to only a small subset. It should, in theory, be usable by anybody. So a weapon only usable by characters with Supernatural Strength isn't allowed, because it's dependent on the character for the damage and not the weapon itself.

Note that some weapons (at least in Rifts, not sure about PF) have PS requirements described in terms of requiring a specific PS score (SN, regular, augmented, robotic), but sometimes also list it in terms of equivalents, but other times there are no equivalents and flavor text suggesting there is no equivalent possible. So by default SN PS may or may not have an equivalent regular PS score (megaversally at least), I don't think normal PS requirement has been considered (I know it was part of the disqualified Steeltree entry).

Hendrick wrote:There is no range limit in the rules. Thus, the deciding factor is not "may be thrown at all" but has to be "designed for some ranged use", i.e. sufficiently balanced and known for its ranged use. A net is that IMO. It is, to my best ken, thrown not unlike a frisbee with weights attached to the ends on the outer "rim".

Actually there is a minimum range requirement/limit of "-No effective range under 30 feet."-Hotrod in OP under Restrictions.
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Hendrik »

Thanks, ShadowLogan, I missed that restriction.

As far as I know Palladium does not give a range or a weight for a net but the gladiatorial weapon is estimated to have weighed between 3 and 6 lbs [SOURCE: "Gladiator: The Complete Guide to Ancient Rome's Bloody Fighters" by Konstantin Nossov, p. 101), which according to the table "Throwing Objects" (p. 17 PFRPG) would yield a range of 25 feet for normal strength humans. I guess one may make a net of a much lighter (special) material, like catsgut instead of plant based cord, but it would still need weights so this will probably not get it to a weight of only max. 1 lbs; however, if possible that would give it a range of 50 feet. But for the latter a little farfetched possibility, I concur that the net is likely out under the rules.
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Glistam »

ShadowLogan wrote:
Prysus wrote:While it does have reach, so does a Pike. That doesn't convince me it's a thrown weapon. The rope is more designed for entangle and the hook part more for stabbing (if necessary). You can find a W.P. Grapple Hook in PF2 main book. Yet it's not listed as a Thrown Weapon for a reason. Yes, it's a slightly different weapon, but a grapple hook is made by the Japanese doesn't mean it's a thrown weapon suddenly. Nice try though. I like the attempt.

I can see the argument that it has the reach and is like a Pike, but I can also see it as being a thrown weapon given that to reach the required distance it has to be thrown by the user. That only the Japanese have developed it into a weapon I don't think changes the fact that a grappling hook can be designed as a weapon as that is more an indication of cultural limitation that anything else. Nor do I see a requirement that the weapon has to be for straight combat, and can't be for sneaky combat.

I think ShadowLogan makes a good point here. Page 19 of the Compendium of Contemporary Weapons has the description:

    Kawanaga. An iron Japanese grapple attached to a long rope. It could be used to assist in climbing, tying up prisoners or a horse, or as an entanglement weapon. Used with both hands.

Page 65 of the same book lists it with a "Throw" rating of 2, giving it a +1 to strike when thrown. It's not the best rating, but it's not the worst either.
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

@Hendrick
My PF collection is rather limited, I have a more extensive Rifts and Robotech collection. In Rifts they don't use nets to often, and the only one I could find off hand that had a weight was the Kittani Plasma Net in WB21 (Atlantis 2/Splyn Market) which put it at 6lbs. The only other individual net I could think of was in Dinosaur Swamp, but it didn't include a weight.

There isn't an entry even in Compendium of Weapons and Armor either
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Hendrik »

Hi ShadowLogan,

well spotted, I had not seen those, AND you gave me an idea! :-)

I checked the latest iteration of the "Megaversial rules", i.e. the cycle of books starting around RUE and BtS-II, shortly after PFRPG-II, and - lo and behold! - the net range is now mentioned under the WP Targeting skill as 30 feet (BtS-II, page 214; RUE, page 328; DR, page 216; Splicers, page 206). Dear Reign has already been cited above. I have to conclude that omitting the range in PFRPG-II was an unintentional oversight, but oversight or not, it is a gap that can best be filled by checking the other canon answers :-).

I tend to think that rules questions should be answered by the respective core book first, but gaps or questions may be answered by looking into the newer "core rules" versions. I mean, if one wants to be as canonical as possible - a GM may naturally decide whatever he darn well pleases, or better what is ok for him and his group. That is what I do for BtS as well. Some things are not in that fabulous book, so for equipment and such I happily look into the Dead Reign core book (also because DR started as an add-on to BtS anyway AND is highly compatible).

The net entry in PFRPG, at least as far as I understand it, quite clearly states the net is (also) a thrown weapon. Throwing it is one of its intended functions as findings on the Retiari also conclude. As I said above, like a dagger or a spear it can be used in melee and ranged combat.

While I think that my above interpretation along the lines of Throwing Ranges makes sense when seen solely under PFRPG-II auspices
Hendrik wrote:As far as I know Palladium does not give a range or a weight for a net but the gladiatorial weapon is estimated to have weighed between 3 and 6 lbs [SOURCE: "Gladiator: The Complete Guide to Ancient Rome's Bloody Fighters" by Konstantin Nossov, p. 101), which according to the table "Throwing Objects" (p. 17 PFRPG) would yield a range of 25 feet for normal strength humans. I guess one may make a net of a much lighter (special) material, like catsgut instead of plant based cord, but it would still need weights so this will probably not get it to a weight of only max. 1 lbs; however, if possible that would give it a range of 50 feet. But for the latter a little farfetched possibility, I concur that the net is likely out under the rules.

I correct my former conclusion and assume that the throwing range of a net could well be seen as megaversially fixed at 30 feet, but that will be for Hotrod and Prysus to call.

I think accepting the net as a throwing weapon should not only be an "exception" but the ruling above should include nets in general, but I realize that Hotrod's rules fairly limit the canon for this context to exclude DR etc. so from my vantage point for this contest the net would be out.

Kindest regards,
Hendrik
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Glistam »

Prysus wrote:
Glistam wrote:The book does not tell us that entangling is a "primary" attack. It tells us that the net can do a "regular entangling" attack (as in, per the combat definition section), as well as two other types of attacks it then proceeds to describe. It never calls out any of the five (5) types of available attacks as more or less significant (primary, secondary, tertiary, etc) to the user. Whereas throwing is specifically called out for Polearms, Battleaxes, and Swords in those W.P.'s as something those weapons are not designed to do.

Greetings and Salutations. I've been giving this a fair bit of thought over the last few days. As an individual, I'm not entirely convinced that's what the passage means. With that said, this is Palladium and sometimes a sentence can be interpreted more than one way. You've made a compelling case, and this will be my ruling on the matter ...

1. I'm making the rule from this point/post forward that nets shall not be considered ranged weapons. Note: If such a ranged contest ever occurs again in the future, this ruling could very well be readdressed.
2. I'm going to allow your (Glistam's) original net entry. Since it was submitted before I made the above ruling, that entry will be allowed as an exception. I like having more entries and you've made a good case, so I'm going to let it in. To make the current entry allowable we've had to import a ruling from Dead Reign, questionable wording in the W.P., and I'm fairly sure some questionable rulings by the time I'm done judging it. As a rules lawyer, I'm not comfortable with that much bending of the rules. However, as a G.M. and a judge, I think a good, reasonable argument should sometimes be rewarded. This is one of those cases (in my opinion).

I'll judge the net and the other entry later (maybe later today). If by some chance I don't give a ruling by the end of Sunday, I hope someone posts in this thread again I'll be sure to do it Monday. I sometimes get distracted (especially with the holidays), but a new posts always brings my attention back. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys.

Whoo! I look forward to it!
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Glistam »

I really didn't think the net would be such a divisive and complicated weapon to judge in this contest. I'm honestly fine with just redacting my entry if that allows this contest to proceed and eventually conclude.
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Prysus »

Glistam wrote:I really didn't think the net would be such a divisive and complicated weapon to judge in this contest. I'm honestly fine with just redacting my entry if that allows this contest to proceed and eventually conclude.

Greetings and Salutations. It's not the net, it's me. With the holidays the wife and I have spent more days off together. On top of that I just had a huge fight with my DM (and more importantly, a very good friend) that we recently resolved. And I've actually had a tiny motivation to write, so I've been taking advantage of that as well. The truth is though, I have trouble wanting to do anything ... at all. I'm feeling decent at the moment though. So I'm going to finish a couple chores right now (should take about a half an hour), and then I intend to be back. I should have an hour or two before the wife gets home and I'll try to get at least a couple entries judged (I'll be starting at the oldest and working my way forward). Farewell and safe journeys for now.
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Prysus »

ShadowLogan wrote:Spear of Slaying
This non-enchanted weapon is powerful enough to rival that of the most powerful and rarer Rune Weapons in terms of physical damage it can inflict, and it is considered a weak knock-off of a true Spear of Slaying. A True Spear of Slaying is virtually impossible to hard to come by as it is a Hexed Giant Weapon, that the dwarven Hex Masters refuse to reproduce (it was part of their original contract when they produced an undisclosed number of these weapons).

The True Spears of Slaying are part of a multi-ringed defense around a heavily fortified ancient tower located in the northern mountains bordering the Land of the Damned. No one is quite sure what is in the ancient Tower, but it is believed to be very important as the defenses have held for as long as anyone can find records for the place. Attempts to physically enter the Tower have all been repulsed, usually by the large force of Golem spear throwers (using Spears of Slaying and a Spear Thrower) situated on balconies that run up the height of the tower (starting at the 1/2 way point) and the top of the tower itself, though mass formations have provoked other responses from the Tower's defenders. Recovery of the Spears has proven to be difficult as they tend to be teleported away, though the most detailed inspection to date has found them to not have any signs of enchantment before it teleported away which is how the knock offs even exist.

Other defenses known about the Tower to date include ethereal-like entities that project out for a given radius from the tower. And the Tower itself appears to block travel by magical or psyhic means (astral projection, teleport, remote viewing, etc). The tower's doors (at the base, roof, and balconies) and windows (what few there are) are all closed, and are suspected to be locked. Each Golem is an Iron Golem (and qualify as giant-size), and has a cache of apparently identical looking spears.

The last major attempt to penetrate the tower consisted of 10,000 men aided by a quartet of allied adult dragons and twice as many hatchlings two thousand years ago. Only one hatchling and 500 men survived. The majority of their losses (80%) according to the survivors as attributed to the Spears of Slaying, and another 15% due to a previously unknown defense system (possibly activated by the shear numbers present), with the remaining 5% due to disease and environmental factors (land slides, slipping and falling, etc).

Greetings and Salutations. I'm not convinced these spears can defeat 4 adult dragons (at least not if they had much intelligence), but I'll set that aside for now as that's irrelevant for judging. Moving on to the actual stats ...

ShadowLogan wrote:Spear of Slaying
Construction: A Dwarven manufactured version for maximum bonuses of an Aunurgirth Spear (W&A pg33) made from Black Metal, with alternating KNM Glass and Silver barbs (the weapon has barbs in the description).
Damage: 4d6 Base x2 Black metal +4 = 8d6+4
Bonuses: +2 Strike (thrown), +1 Init, +1 Parry, +2 strike, +2 parry
Features:
1. 1/2 weight (Black Metal)
2. invulnerable to all but magic (Black Metal)
3. more duarable, x2 SDC (Black Metal)
4. Razor Sharp, ignores natural AR (KNM Glass, D&G pg224)
5. Silver barbs to allow the weapon to be more effective against those vulnerable to silver attack (ex vampires or were-creatures)
6. When used with a Black Metal constructed Spear Thrower it does +2d6 damage (1d6 base 1d6 black metal bonus) and increases the range by ~162ft (50m)

Spear:
+28 from damage
+8 from combat bonuses
+1 from half weight
+1 from invulnerable to all but magic
+1 from durability (on top of the invulnerability)
+1 for ignoring A.R.
+1 for silver barbs hurting creatures vulnerable to silver

Spear Thrower:*
+6 from damage bonus
+3 for range bonus (baseline effective range of a spear** from PF2 main book, with increments added from the thrower)

*I realize that the Spear Thrower is made of Black Metal as well, but those bonuses are already factored into the weapon. The Spear and the Thrower are still one entry. I'm not going to count them separately any more than I'm going to count a swords blade, crosspiece, pommel, etc. as individual pieces.

**An Aunurgith doesn't seem to be designed as a thrown spear (more of a lance) from research online, but since Palladium doesn't make that distinction I'm giving it the full spear range anyways.

Total is 28+8+1+1+1+1+1+6+3=50 points! I do believe this currently takes first place.

Okay, that should be all for now. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Prysus »

Glistam wrote:Umbral Net

This net is made from a special combination of Chuna-Thread (Danzi Chuna-Cloth, Eastern Territories page 220) and Shadow Steel (Black Iron, Northern Hinterlands page 56), which was turned into a special metal thread through the secret techniques known to the Wolfen January Magic Tribe. In addition to all the normal properties of a net listed below, these nets also have additional properties.

Greetings and Salutations. This is still going to be a very tricky entry to judge. I'm going to try and muddle through the best I can. As such, I'm going to break this up into more parts than usual.

Glistam wrote:Normal Properties (W.P. Net, Main Book page 60)
  • Use as a whipping weapon to do 1D4 damage.
  • Use to trip an opponent by entangling the foot, ankle or leg. Does no damage, but it knocks the victim to the ground and he or she loses initiative and one melee attack.
  • Use to parry an opponents attacks
  • Use to snare or entangle as below.
    • Can entangle as per page 45 of the Main Book
    • Snare an opponent's weapon by entangling it and pulling it out of the oppenents hand.
    • Snare an opponent by throwing the net over him or her. The intended victim must dodge or be netted — only characters with a spear, polearm or staff can parry a thrown net attack. If caught in the net, the victim suffers the following penalties: -8 to strike, -10 to parry and dodge, and running is impossible. This attack requires two hands and the net must be retrieved to be used again (a separate rope/drawstring can be added to allow the net to be pulled back if the attack misses but will still require a melee action to do so).

The question with using the W.P. is that we then have to decide which parts are the W.P. and which parts are the weapon itself. However, since the W.P. describes those as attacks that can be made with a net, I'm going to allow most of them for now.

+2 for damage
+1 for the special attack of tripping (I could argue a tripping attack is NOT special, and most weapons can do it, but the book lists it so I'm keeping it)
+1 for snaring an opponent's weapon (I really want to rule this as a W.P. only ability, but I'm still going to count it for now)
+1 for being able to be thrown over and ensnare an opponent

Parrying and entangling, however, are standard combat moves. Many weapons have those abilities and I'm not giving any special bonuses for those.

Glistam wrote:Special Properties
[*]Due to Kobold craftmanship this net has superior weighting and balance, giving it +3 to damage, +1 to strike, and +1 to parry. (Blunt weapon bonuss, Main Book page 271).

I'm not sure this should be considered a blunt weapon, but the book is vague enough I'm going to allow it all the same.

+5 from combat bonuses.

Glistam wrote:[*]The net strands thenselves are significantly tougher than standard rope and have an A.R. of 10 and 30 S.D.C. (Chuna-Cloth values improved by the Black iron as per the qualities of the metal) but those values are only applicable to those not trapped by it.

Those black iron bonuses are only for armor (per the book), and I'm definitely not calling the net armor. Still, it keeps the bonuses from the Chuna-Cloth.

+1 for an A.R.
+1 for increased S.D.C.

Glistam wrote:[*]Opponents snared/trapped by this net require 4D4+4 melee rounds (or 1D4+4 minutes) to cut free of the net (4 times the usual duration normally required due to the strudiness of Black Iron and the Chuna-Cloth's exceptional resistance to cutting and tearing).

The exact increase for cutting out of this net is questionable and definitely a G.M. call. With that said, it should definitely increase the time required.

+1 for being harder to cut through (when netted).

Glistam wrote:[*]The net takes half damage from fire.

This only applies (per the book) if the weapon is usually crafted from steel. As far as I'm aware, nets aren't usually crafted from steel, so I'm not adding in this one.

Glistam wrote:[*]The net is waterproof.

+1 for being waterproof.

Glistam wrote:[*]The best benefit of this net, as the Wolfen warriors using it have recently discovered, is that when it has trapped a spell caster the unique metal threads have the strange effect of hampering the channelling of magic energy! What this means is that any spell caster trapped by this net suffers the penalties associated with having more than 50% of their body covered in metal, as per the Main Book pages 64 and 104.

I could question this one but ... you know what, I like it.

+1 for hampering spell casting.

Total is 2+1+1+1+5+1+1+1+1+1=15 points!

Despite the low point total, and so many questionable aspects in ruling, know that I do actually like this weapon. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Prysus »

Greetings and Salutations. I'm about out of time for today, but at least I did finish two. I'll try to get back soon for Treymon's Eclectic Arrows. Before I go though, I'll try to addres a few points ...

ShadowLogan wrote:
Prysus wrote:While it does have reach, so does a Pike. That doesn't convince me it's a thrown weapon. The rope is more designed for entangle and the hook part more for stabbing (if necessary). You can find a W.P. Grapple Hook in PF2 main book. Yet it's not listed as a Thrown Weapon for a reason. Yes, it's a slightly different weapon, but a grapple hook is made by the Japanese doesn't mean it's a thrown weapon suddenly. Nice try though. I like the attempt.

I can see the argument that it has the reach and is like a Pike, but I can also see it as being a thrown weapon given that to reach the required distance it has to be thrown by the user. That only the Japanese have developed it into a weapon I don't think changes the fact that a grappling hook can be designed as a weapon as that is more an indication of cultural limitation that anything else. Nor do I see a requirement that the weapon has to be for straight combat, and can't be for sneaky combat.

I see what you're trying to say, though I'm not sure I agree. Also keep in mind, you altered the weapon to add range as well. Simply adding more rope doesn't mean it'll still be effective at that range. I can add 10 feet onto the end of a sword, that doesn't mean the sword will still be as effective as normal.

If you're really set on making this argument though, I'll make you a deal ... find me a grappling hook with 30 feet range WITHOUT just adding more rope and calling it good, and we'll discuss this further.

ShadowLogan wrote:You still haven't gotten back to the "Spear of Slaying" entry from the first page.

Taken care of. :ok:

ShadowLogan wrote:
Prysus wrote:If you want the weapon to count, the weapon can't be restricted to only a small subset. It should, in theory, be usable by anybody. So a weapon only usable by characters with Supernatural Strength isn't allowed, because it's dependent on the character for the damage and not the weapon itself.

Note that some weapons (at least in Rifts, not sure about PF) have PS requirements described in terms of requiring a specific PS score (SN, regular, augmented, robotic), but sometimes also list it in terms of equivalents, but other times there are no equivalents and flavor text suggesting there is no equivalent possible. So by default SN PS may or may not have an equivalent regular PS score (megaversally at least), I don't think normal PS requirement has been considered (I know it was part of the disqualified Steeltree entry).

Actually, I quoted that part in my response as well, but I'll repeat it again.

Hotrod wrote:+For a special feature to count, it must be usable by anybody. Any special requirements of strength, magic powers, giant size, psionics, etc, will not count.

Strength is specifically listed there for a reason. Now I know it specifies special features, but it's really a reiteration of ...

Hotrod wrote:-No character-specific bonuses can be included, including skills, racial bonuses, or O.C.C. (Note: the longbow has some O.C.C. restrictions, but is usable by all, so it is permitted)

So if the character needs to have a requirement (such as a certain P.S. attribute), then it's not permitted. If this were a Rifts contest, I'd disallow the Big Bore guns too based on this rule, as one example. I don't think I got far enough into your Steeltree entry to see the P.S. requirement, or that would have been one more reason for me to do so.

Farewell and safe journeys for now.
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Rifter #52; From Ruins to Runes (Living Rune Weapons; playable characters and NPC)
Rifter #55; Home Away From Home (Quorian Culture; expanded from PF Book 9: Baalgor Wastelands)

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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Prysus wrote:Greetings and Salutations. I'm not convinced these spears can defeat 4 adult dragons (at least not if they had much intelligence), but I'll set that aside for now as that's irrelevant for judging. Moving on to the actual stats ...

Well THESE spears are "considered a weak knock-off of a true Spear of Slaying". It is the True Spear of Slaying that was used in the defense of that Tower, not these cheap knock-offs. So the TSoS might have features not present or known about, also keep in mind there are supposed to be multiples of the TSoS involved in the Tower's defense.

And I never really stated out the TSoS or the Tower defenses (in hard numbers or much depth). I know there are Golem defenders, each with a cache of these weapons (which are supposed to be more powerful than the weapon stated out). I also left the details of the battle as vague, so there could have been other factors (Dragon infighting, other weapons defending the Tower, etc) that contributed.
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge: Non-Magic Ranged Weapons

Unread post by Hotrod »

Here are the points I'm assigning for the side-competitions thus far:
+1 Munchkin point to Kiralon for attempting to shamelessly re-use his Grodnelite Javelin from last year, which was awesome, but doesn't count this year, either.
+1 Rules Lawyer point to Vek for pointing out the illegality of Kiralon's submission before Prysus issued his judgment.
+1 Munchkin point and +1 Awesome Point to Prysus for his Black Death spear, an evil weapon that tried to split hairs by treating the metal as both metal and blood.
-2 Rules Lawyer Points from Hotrod for shamelessly attempting a Franken-weapon and trying to sneak in a dragon bone weapon.
-2 Rules Lawyer Points from Hotrod for trying to do so in an attempt to establish precedent, when he should have just written the rules more clearly.
-1 Awesome point from Hotrod for speaking about himself in the third person. What a tool!
+1 Rules Lawyer Point to ShadowLogan for correctly calling out Hotrod's use of a Dragon Bone arrow as being illegal.
+2 Rules Lawyers Points to Kiralon for pointing out that Arbalests are classified as siege weapons in some Palladium materials, as well as for the interesting discussion that followed between him and Prysus.
+1 Rules Lawyer Point to Kiralon for identifying an inconsistency of the Beaked Axe being both a spear and a pole-arm, with different damages and sizes.
+1 Awesome Point to ShadowLogan for the Spear of Slaying, especially the story behind it.
+1 Munchkin Point to ShadowLogan for being the first to try using the Spear Thrower as a bonus-provider.
+1 Munchkin Point to ShadowLogan for his Repeating Crossbow Black Swarm weapon
+1 Awesome Point to Glistam and his very cool Umbral Net weapon
+1 Rules Lawyer Point to Glistam for making a persuasive argument for a net being a thrown weapon as a primary use.
+2 Rules Lawyer Points to Glistam for finding an obscure reference for net range in a related Palladium RPG.
+1 Rules Lawyer Point to Glistam for providing a reference for none of the five net attack modes being a "primary" use.
+1 Munchkin Point to Glistam for combining just about every arrow perk in canon in a single post.
+1 Awesome Point to Glistam for the lore he provided for his "Treymon's Eclectic Arrows"
+1 Munchkin Point to Lukterran for trying the giant rock shenanigan.
+1 Rules Lawyer Point to Glistam for changing Prysus' mind on DQing the Net.
-1 Rules Lawyer Point to Prysus for changing his mind on DQing Glistam's net.
+1 Rules Lawyer point to Hendrik for making a good argument for including "dual use" weapons that can be effective in ranged and melee combat.
+1 Rules Lawyer point to ShadowLogan for pointing out a rules oversight on Hendrik's part.
+1 Rules Lawyer point to both ShadowLogan and Glistam for good arguments for including grappling hooks and Kawanagas in the contest.
+2 Rules Lawyer Points to ShadowLogan for providing an obscure reference for net weight from a related Palladium RPG.
+1 Rules Lawyer Point to Hendrik for pointing out that every main RPG book put out by Palladium since RUE have had net ranges included.
+1 Awesome Point to Prysus for having a life outside this forum and not judging everything immediately.
-1 Rules Lawyer point from Prysus for exactly the same reason!
-1 Awesome Point and -1 Rules Lawyer Point from Hotrod for dumping all this work on Prysus. What a slacker.

Contest Status:
The current leader is Shadowlogan with the Spear of Slaying for 50 points!

The current Rules Lawyer Point Tally
Kiralon: +4
Vek: +1
ShadowLogan: +5
Glistam: +6
Hendrik: +2
Prysus: -2
Hotrod: -5

The current Munchkin Point Tally:

Kiralon: +1
Prysus: +1
ShadowLogan: +2
Glistam: +1
Lukterran: +1

The current Awesome Point Tally:

ShadowLogan: +1
Glistam: +2
Hotrod: -2
Prysus: +2

Note 1: As a judge, Prysus is ineligible to be this year's Rules Lawyer, but he can win negative points for reversing himself, as he did with the Umbral Net (for what it's worth, I'm fine including nets, but I doubt anyone can make a realistic contender with them.

Note 2: Hotrod reserves the right to make new assessments of side-competition points whenever he feels like doing so.

Note 3: Hotrod has made some minor alterations to the original rules for the purpose of clarity, and he has removed the reference to this being a 2016 competition, since this has spilled over into 2017. The fact that he had to do this is costing him another -1 Awesome Point.

Note 4: As the arbiter of side-competition points, Hotrod is only permitted to award negative points to himself, especially if he messes up or refers to himself in the third person, like he's doing right now, for another -1 Awesome Point.
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge '16: Non-Magic Ranged Wea

Unread post by Hotrod »

Glistam wrote:

--------------------


Treymon's Eclectic Arrows



This entry is awesome. +1 Awesome Point (which is already in the running total). It's also really hard to judge, but since I dumped so much judging on Prysus, it seems only fair that I do one or two here and there. All my judgments here are subject to his review.

Ok, so here's my thoughts on the many arrow combinations you've presented. First off, none of them will "stack" with the others. The way I see it, there are two ways I could judge this that make sense: judge one arrow/bow combination, and then include the other arrow variants as special optional attacks, or treat the full quiver as the ammunition, and allow the unique strengths of each to the overall total. I'm going with the latter approach.

For the Everall bow:
+3 to damage = 3 points.
The baseline range of 720 is 12.5% better than the standard 640 feet. The minimum threshold for longbow extended range bonuses is 960 feet, so no bonuses there.

• White Iron shaft with a Korobite coated Black Iron "Whistler" arrowhead:
+2 to strike = 2 points
2D6+4 damage = 10 points
Silver = 1 point,
Whistling = 2 points (special move that attracts attention/may intimidate)
Ignores first 20 points of damage = 1 point
Half damage from lightning = 1 point
Arrowhead holds its edge longer = 1 point
Half damage to arrowhead from fire = 1 point.
Range is now 760 feet, still not good enough for a point.

At this point, the total is 3+2+10+1+2+1+1+1+1=22 points.

Now I'll go through unique properties in the rest of the quiver and add them in as appropriate:

• White Iron shaft with a Korobite coated Black Iron "Multi-Blade" arrowhead:
Damage points are now up to 18 instead of 10, so the total comes to 30 points.

• Yellow Wood shaft with a Korobite coated Black Iron "Multi-Blade" arrowhead:
Damage points are now up to 20 instead of 18: +2 points
Shaft is harder to catch on fire: +1 point
But it burns hotter: +1 point
so the total comes to 34 points.

• Stone Wood shaft with a Korobite coated Black Iron "Multi-Blade" arrowhead
Damage points are now 21: +1 point
so the total comes to 35 points.

• Yellow Wood shaft with an "Arrowhead Quill" arrowhead:
+2 points for unique attack from the arrowhead quill
so the total comes to 37 points.

• Stone Wood shaft with an "Arrowhead Quill" arrowhead:
No new capabilities added

• Panath Tree wood shaft with a Korobite coated Black Iron "Multi-Blade" arrowhead:
+2 points for special attack capabilities against the undead (not sure what I should do for these foe-dependent bonuses).
+1 point for shaft burning fast and hot
so the total comes to 40 points, making this our top-scoring bow/arrow submission to date!
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge: Non-Magic Ranged Weapons

Unread post by Glistam »

I know I shouldn't be disappointed that the stories/background count for nothing in a Munchkin/Rule Lawyer challenge, but I am anyway. Still, I'm glad to see the work I did on the arrows paid off. Now to just find a way to make a better bow for them...
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge: Non-Magic Ranged Weapons

Unread post by Hotrod »

Glistam wrote:I know I shouldn't be disappointed that the stories/background count for nothing in a Munchkin/Rule Lawyer challenge, but I am anyway. Still, I'm glad to see the work I did on the arrows paid off. Now to just find a way to make a better bow for them...

Did you miss the Awesome Point? That entry is totally making it to the Thread of Glory. You're tied for 1st in the Awesome category with Prysus.
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Re: Munchkin/Rule Lawyer Challenge: Non-Magic Ranged Weapons

Unread post by Glistam »

Hotrod wrote:
Glistam wrote:I know I shouldn't be disappointed that the stories/background count for nothing in a Munchkin/Rule Lawyer challenge, but I am anyway. Still, I'm glad to see the work I did on the arrows paid off. Now to just find a way to make a better bow for them...

Did you miss the Awesome Point? That entry is totally making it to the Thread of Glory. You're tied for 1st in the Awesome category with Prysus.

D'oh! I did miss it there :-? Thanks for the gentle reminder!
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kiralon: "...the best way to kill an old one is to crash a moon into it."

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