Druid OCC thoughts aka, I think it's lame and I hate it :p

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Druid OCC thoughts aka, I think it's lame and I hate it :p

Unread post by J_cobbers »

Warning I'm going kinda negative here. If you love the Druid OCC, more power to you but I really don't like it as an OCC for PCs.

If you disagree feel free to give your input and thoughts, maybe you'll change my mind, but I think this is the worst and poorest written in the PFRPG main book.

Ever since PF 2nd Edition came out there has been one class that just never made much sense to me as an adventurer, and that's the Druid. The whole right up seems better suited to NPCs, and not action oriented adventuring. It might be a great class for style points and the write up has a lot of flavor useful to portraying the class in an RP way, but somethings never made much sense to me. Also the focus on animal sacrifice always has just kinda creeped me out, that usually in a lot of PB games seemed like a route evil magic users take.

Higher level Druids get some powerful-ish healing powers, but have to make a sacrifice, where as a wizard or priest can just cast a spell and be done with it, and could learn the magic much sooner.

The skill for controlling magic dealing with a force of nature seems to be a major hindrance, plus it is stuck at 35% until after 8th level. This seems ridiculous given a druid is all supposed to be in touch with nature, thus they should have greater control, not lower.

Then there is the oh you have to pass a test when you level up; great for story, I am sure but annoying for a GM to figure out and what happens if they fail the test? Does the character not get their new abilities or skills commensurate with their level until they do? Cool for story, but lame for the player when all his buddies go DING and get shiny new upgrades with their level up.

Next we get to the "5 Laws" yeah again seem great for RP purposes, but what do they actually mean, they are super vague and potentially really lame.
"1. THE LAW OF REBOUND. A lesser magical force will always be repelled by a stronger one, and will rebound onto its caster."
So if my Druid character casts a spell on a higher level mage, do we have a I am rubber and you are glue event?

"2. THE LAW OF EQUALS. When two equal magical forces meet, one will eventually give way to the other, which will then be recognized
as the stronger in future meetings."
But what if my Druid levels up a bit in the mean time, I skill got to defer to that magical force that I now out class, because when we first went head to head we had a draw?

"3. THE LAW OF APPEARANCES. Nothing in the magical realms should be taken at face value, but should always be questioned. This especially
applies to obvious solutions and the "easy way out."
Not too much to pick at here, this is actually one sound piece of advice, much like Yoda talking about the Dark side.

4. THE LAW OF SUMMONING. If a druid calls upon magical powers and finds that the result is not what was expected, it means that he does not have enough experience and ability to do what was attempted.
Or maybe it's an effect with a random result? Does this tie into the magical control power with it's underwhelming 35% chance of things going the way they are supposed to? So if a spell or power goes sideways (as seems highly likely with this OCC), then does that mean the character shouldn't use it again until they level up?

5. THE LAW OF CAUSE AND EFFECT. Like the concept of "karma," a druid should never expect something for nothing. The power of a magical spell will only be equal to the power put into creating and casting it. To try to summon more power than one can handle is to summon
"negative magic" on oneself (bad luck).
Isn't PPE the power that magic users put into a spell? Thus shouldn't all castings be equal to the power they put into it? Or does this apply to a Druid using PPE from other sources, like Ley Lines or sacrifices? Which due to their low base PPE they may have to resort to in the first place.

THEN there is the negative magic energy penalties, that can be picked up from "drawing power from the earth" and not performing a ritual with a sacrifice at the end, OR failing to keep up with nurturing of nature OR using magic for selfish / evil / harmful purposes. This is up to the GM and seems to me to very subjective and problematic.

Lastly once they hit level 10 they only get 2 spells from levels 1-3 per level. Which most other spell casters would already have by the time they reach that level. I see this especially crippling as until you get to 10th level you can't even cast Armor of Ithan, and Druids won't wear metal armor normally. Furthermore on Druids and Armor, the write up notes that metal armor will interfere with their magic, but neglects to mention what penalties or make a direct reference to the penalties other magic users have when using it which would seem the appropriate thing to do for the sake of clarity. Which means if you do apply the penalties a priest or wizard would have, it's effectively a house rule because it isn't clearly stated in the OCC.

Basically more than any other OCC, the Druid has a lot of stings attached to it for what I don't think are a lot of benefits.
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Re: Druid OCC thoughts aka, I think it's lame and I hate it

Unread post by Library Ogre »

While I like the OCC, I tend to agree... the design of it purposefully makes it incredibly hard to adventure, especially as they're the only ones who require specific training and there's no real guidance on how to do it.
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Re: Druid OCC thoughts aka, I think it's lame and I hate it

Unread post by kiralon »

Make a wereshaman (which is a first edition druid), give it some/most of the powers a second ed druid gets as it goes up levels. Ignore most of the rules as they sound interesting but don't actually do anything. Only let the new druid use wooden/stone weapons. Call it a druid.
Take note of the ley lines and put henges on/near them. Put a druid circle (group) near them.
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Re: Druid OCC thoughts aka, I think it's lame and I hate it

Unread post by Hotrod »

I liked the sacrifice aspect of it and the flavor of the write-up; it seems inspired by the ancient gallic druids as described in Caesar's commentaries (they also practiced human sacrifice according to Caesar and other roman sources, but the role of such sacrifices may have been exaggerated). Those druids, historically, had enormous political power in Gaul, running both religious and judicial processes.

If you give your druids that kind of social power wherever druidism is prominent (which is a lot of places), they'll be somewhat more balanced. Sure, they have to sacrifice animals, but their influence leads worshipers to bring them what they need. I agree that this makes them more useful as N.P.C.'s than as player characters. For player characters, I prefer other flavors of druid that Kevin has written up over the years. My favorites are the druids and herbologist O.C.C.'s out of Rifts: England, which can also fit in nicely when you apply the druid fluff and philosophy to them.

In my version of Palladium Fantasy, the canon druid faction is very sacrifice-focused and has many non-druid followers in most parts of the world, but there are some herb-magic druid factions here and there which generally don't seek much power or influence. The traditional druids view these herb-magicians as heretics and tend to persecute them to varying degrees. Thus the greater magical power of the herbal druids is balanced by the political power of the druids-as-written.
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Re: Druid OCC thoughts aka, I think it's lame and I hate it

Unread post by J_cobbers »

Hotrod wrote:I liked the sacrifice aspect of it and the flavor of the write-up; it seems inspired by the ancient gallic druids as described in Caesar's commentaries (they also practiced human sacrifice according to Caesar and other roman sources, but the role of such sacrifices may have been exaggerated). Those druids, historically, had enormous political power in Gaul, running both religious and judicial processes.

If you give your druids that kind of social power wherever druidism is prominent (which is a lot of places), they'll be somewhat more balanced. Sure, they have to sacrifice animals, but their influence leads worshipers to bring them what they need. I agree that this makes them more useful as N.P.C.'s than as player characters. For player characters, I prefer other flavors of druid that Kevin has written up over the years. My favorites are the druids and herbologist O.C.C.'s out of Rifts: England, which can also fit in nicely when you apply the druid fluff and philosophy to them.

In my version of Palladium Fantasy, the canon druid faction is very sacrifice-focused and has many non-druid followers in most parts of the world, but there are some herb-magic druid factions here and there which generally don't seek much power or influence. The traditional druids view these herb-magicians as heretics and tend to persecute them to varying degrees. Thus the greater magical power of the herbal druids is balanced by the political power of the druids-as-written.


I totally get were Kevin was going with the write up in the main book, I just don't think it works as an adventurer OCC as written. I have never had any issue with the Rifts England Druids, they seem much better written and PC OCCs, and would probably be easily adapted to PF, and fit better with an adventuring group primarily in a support role. I think the standard 2d ed PFRPG druid belongs in the NPC role which again is one of the reasons I don't like their write up. If I ran a PF game, I think I'd treat them more like alchemists, NPC with a lot of knowledge and clout in their community; likely I'd want to use them for setting the group off on a quest, or the target of a quest and even as a source of critical information. In that context they make so much more sense than as a PC.
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Re: Druid OCC thoughts aka, I think it's lame and I hate it

Unread post by J_cobbers »

I would also contrast the PF druid with the DnD 3 ed and forward druid. Yes I know 2d ed PF came out first, but the 3.0 and 3.5 DnD druid did a better job fitting into an adventuring group without all the wonkiness I see in the PF version. While I know the PB design philosophy is not that of WotC and DnD, where each character class is fairly well balanced against the others and fits a somewhat predefined roll, I think sometimes the PB crew goes for, well this seems like a neat idea, let's write it up and put it in, without a lot of working out all the mechanics or impact on how it works in with the rest of the game and game rules. I don't always think that OCCs have to be ballanced against eachother, but it helps if the compliment each other and are playable without a lot of subjective wonk.
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Re: Druid OCC thoughts aka, I think it's lame and I hate it

Unread post by Library Ogre »

The 3.x druid, though, is a MONSTER. Decent combat, combined with a pet that keeps up with the fighter, combined with a good, flexible, spellcasting list... there's a reason why they (and the cleric) are collectively referred to as "CoDzilla"... you can break the game for other players just by making reasonably smart choices, without going into heavy character optimization.

I think the Palladium Druids work pretty well... once you remove the training requirement, which keeps them heavily attached to a single location. Their requirements are different, but no more stringent than any other priest (q.v. the story of the priest who lost several levels for daring to question their deity). They're a fairly rigid class, but aren't useless... just weird.
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Re: Druid OCC thoughts aka, I think it's lame and I hate it

Unread post by tuvermage »

Personally I feel it was written for a very low magic level world. Another way to make it work better is to make magic and magic users rarer. All players get a percent roll before making characters and if they don't get under 10 they can't pick a magic OCC with exception of Druid. But yeah, there's not much reason to play a druid unless you are waiting to give yourself a hard time. Can it be done, yes. Most don't want that challenge though.
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Re: Druid OCC thoughts aka, I think it's lame and I hate it

Unread post by Hotrod »

I was flipping through Rifts England thinking about this and I looked at the Blood Druid, an O.C.C. I've never paid much attention to before. They get to make all types of herbs and objects (something only the Dryad and Scathach are permitted) and they get a bunch of blood sacrifice powers. Their crunch matches up pretty well to the write-up, especially if you permit them to do animal sacrifices for those powers instead of humans. The sacrifice-heavy side of them, plus the religious slant providing a convenient pool of followers' P.P.E., would allow them to do some pretty hefty herbal magic enchantments. Maybe I'll just substitute them for the canon 2E druid with some adjustments (no anarchist/evil alignments, no assassin hand-to-hand, less emphasis on sentient sacrifice).
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Re: Druid OCC thoughts aka, I think it's lame and I hate it

Unread post by Reagren Wright »

Mark Hall wrote:The 3.x druid, though, is a MONSTER. Decent combat, combined with a pet that keeps up with the fighter, combined with a good, flexible, spellcasting list... there's a reason why they (and the cleric) are collectively referred to as "CoDzilla"... you can break the game for other players just by making reasonably smart choices, without going into heavy character optimization.

I think the Palladium Druids work pretty well... once you remove the training requirement, which keeps them heavily attached to a single location. Their requirements are different, but no more stringent than any other priest (q.v. the story of the priest who lost several levels for daring to question their deity). They're a fairly rigid class, but aren't useless... just weird.


Have to agree with Mark. The Druid faith works as an ok religion for npcs. But no one in any of
my groups in the last 25 years has ever a Palladium Druid. Kevin was definitely inspired to
make druids feel be more like "real" druids and turned the original PD druid into Were-
Shaman. I also believe the Druids and Herbalist from Rifts England are better fit for PF than
Rifts Earth and I would like to see more Herb stuff appear in PF. Hmm.
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Re: Druid OCC thoughts aka, I think it's lame and I hate it

Unread post by J_cobbers »

Reagren Wright wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:The 3.x druid, though, is a MONSTER. Decent combat, combined with a pet that keeps up with the fighter, combined with a good, flexible, spellcasting list... there's a reason why they (and the cleric) are collectively referred to as "CoDzilla"... you can break the game for other players just by making reasonably smart choices, without going into heavy character optimization.

I think the Palladium Druids work pretty well... once you remove the training requirement, which keeps them heavily attached to a single location. Their requirements are different, but no more stringent than any other priest (q.v. the story of the priest who lost several levels for daring to question their deity). They're a fairly rigid class, but aren't useless... just weird.


Have to agree with Mark. The Druid faith works as an ok religion for npcs. But no one in any of
my groups in the last 25 years has ever a Palladium Druid. Kevin was definitely inspired to
make druids feel be more like "real" druids and turned the original PD druid into Were-
Shaman. I also believe the Druids and Herbalist from Rifts England are better fit for PF than
Rifts Earth and I would like to see more Herb stuff appear in PF. Hmm.


Hey if you can make a silk purse outta this idea I'm all for it. I definitley got the vibe from the PF Druid write up that it was trying to resemble the druids of the ancient british isles, I just didn't see it as a good fit for the setting as a PC. So if you (or anyone else) can use your freelance writting powers to get something in a future Rifter or PF source book that makes a better PF druid you'll 2 tumbs up from this guy.
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Re: Druid OCC thoughts aka, I think it's lame and I hate it

Unread post by Razorwing »

One has to remember that the vast majority of one's training comes before their first adventure. Just like any other class, Druids likely started their training when they were still children (likely around 5 or 6, though can be late as 10 or 12). By the time they are of age (16 to 20y), most have learned enough to be considered a 1st level Druid (at least mechanically) and is ready to learn from a teacher who's wisdom is greater than their mentor... life (as in adventuring). They will be encouraged to go out into the world and learn lessons that can only be taught by experiencing all that life has to offer.

When they reach a new level of Experience, they will likely seek out an experienced druid in the area (or even return to their mentor) to undergo testing for new responsibilities and abilities... this is no different than the time a Wizard spends memorizing new spells or a psychic spends meditating to unlock new powers... or any of the men-at-arms spend practicing with their weapons (no one instantly improves the moment their EXP points reach the amount for the next level... a little training will be needed, by everyone). Yes, at lower levels, Druids have less abilities that directly apply to adventuring, but even the animal healing touch they receive at 2nd level can help them to take care of the animals an adventuring party has (and chances are they have some skill in foraging for food in wilderness environments where it is a little difficult to find a shop or inn to buy food). Few classes are as adept at living off the land as a druid (and they are likely to know more than any other at a comparative level).

As for the animal sacrifice... it isn't any more evil than the deer the wolf kills for its meal. Remember, Druids believe that in order to receive something, something must be returned to the Earth that provides. Remember, even the priests of light in most civilizations around Palladium see nothing wrong with the sacrifice of animals... it is the sacrifice of sentient beings that most have problems with (yet even here, many good people would be willing to sacrifice bestial races like goblins, ogres and such... for they are little more than beasts in the view of most people). Druids however see the sacrifice on a more fundamental level... the give and take of nature... which is both benign and brutal in equal measure. One can not constantly take from nature without returning something... and sometimes giving back requires sacrifice. One also has to remember that Druids don't have large PPE reserves with which to cast spells... and since they can't always be on a ley line (and can't draw energy from living people or animals), a sacrifice may be required (depending on how needed the spell they seek to cast is). It isn't something most are going to do without a bit of thought first... and most are likely to put the rest of the animals to some use (meat can sustain others after all). And at later levels, it may mean the life or death of a fellow PC when the Druid is able to convert the PPE of such a sacrifice into healing energy to save their life when no one else has an alternate mode of healing available (which is more important... the life of a cow, or the life of your best friend and comrade?). Most importantly though... animal sacrifice is NOT usually their first resort (or even the only way they can cast spells), merely an option they have (and don't see as evil).

I'm not trying to convince anyone that Druids are any better than other classes (they aren't better, but neither are they worse... they're just different), but rather to clear up what I believe are misunderstandings of what Druids are and how they fit into an adventuring party. True, they may not be powerful warriors or even powerful spellcasters, but their usefulness outside of combat... especially in areas like taking care of animals and providing food and guidance through wilderness areas is likely to more than make up for their shortcomings in combat (not that they are slouches there... just not front-line like the Paladin or Knight). They may not make much of a difference in a fight, but once the dust settles, you may be glad they are around to provide some healing (they do get some healing spells that work on people at 3rd level) and general medicine (holistic most likely).
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Re: Druid OCC thoughts aka, I think it's lame and I hate it

Unread post by Soldier of Od »

tuvermage wrote:Personally I feel it was written for a very low magic level world.

It was.

The Palladium Fantasy 2nd edition druid is a straight copy of the druid class from After the Bomb: Mutants in Avalon. I guess when Kevin wrote up PF 2nd Ed. he liked the concept of the ATB druid and decided to use it for PF. I also like the concept, and I am a big fan of having interesting developments in power as one progresses in experience levels. But the actual O.C.C. should have been tweaked a little more to make it work better in the PF setting.
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Re: Druid OCC thoughts aka, I think it's lame and I hate it

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Also of note is they do have two spells at 1st level... Globe of Daylight and Repel Animals, the second of which can be VERY helpful, depending on your opposition.

I wrote a fair bit expanding and examining them for MoM, though it's anyone's guess as to when it will come out.
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Re: Druid OCC thoughts aka, I think it's lame and I hate it

Unread post by Amberjack »

A quick fix is adding mystic herbology to PF Druid.
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Re: Druid OCC thoughts aka, I think it's lame and I hate it

Unread post by Razorwing »

At first level, a Druid probably knows more about a specific region (likely the area where they are adventuring) than any other character... including trails and paths through the region that few use. They are also more familiar with the history of that region than most... which can be important when dealing with ancient ruins one comes across. The Ley Line abilities are not likely to see much use (they aren't common on Palladium in general). The spells, Globe of Daylight and Repel Animals can be life-savers... especially when dealing with certain types of undead.

At second level, a Druid gets a skill that allows them to entertain and teach... which can help them earn some coin when needed. The canalso heal animals (something many communities will be grateful for... not to mention healing the animals that carry adventurers). The spells Chameleon and Faerie Speak may not seem like much, but they can be useful for hiding and causing mischief (against one's enemies) or to understand why faerie folk in an area are being mischievous.

3rd level gives a druid a means of navigating by the stars (and yes, the sun is a star, so it isn't limited to just nighttime use). The can also predict the weather for the next few hours... helping any adventuring party to avoid the worst weather they may encounter (in northern climes where sudden snow storms can kill... this can be invaluable). The Negate Poison, Healing Touch and Control the Beast spells should have some obvious uses... and the Familiar Link spell will be just as useful to the druid as it is to a Mage (an animal companion that can scout ahead or spy unnoticed can be very useful to any party... depending on what animal is involved).

The 4th level ability of prophesy can be very helpful (when it works) to help guide a group to where they can be of use. Even forecast weather change ability can be useful for knowing when something is not the way it should be. Great tools a GM can use to guide players into adventures.

The Extinguish Fire and Kindle Flame abilities can be quite impressive (most villages will be near a river or source of water that can be used... thus a Druid could protect a sizable population from an out of control forest fire. The Communication power can help contact others at great distances... always a useful power to have.

The spells gained at 6th level have both obvious and out-of-the-box potential.

7th level gives a druid a powerful healing magic that can save lives... at the cost of a large animal (though when used to save a friend's life, most would say it is an acceptable sacrifice). The Divination ability can also help guide players to new adventures (though as always, they are free to act on or ignore such information as they see fit).

The 8th level Protection charm can be useful... though what constitutes initiating a hostile action is open to interpretation. The spells gained at this level do have some utility... though somewhat limited in scope.

The Weather Control power gained can be surprisingly useful depending on the situation. A drought stricken area could finally get some relief... and causing a downpour could help stop a forest fire... or bog down an invading army (or even help with a siege). The spells gained at this level are helpful for showing the Druid's disfavor with individuals (including the teammate that keeps saying the druid is useless).

From 10th level and beyond, the druid gets to choose low level spells that may be of more practical use in adventuring (though the magic they already have can be useful when used creatively).

In short, the usefulness of a Druid in an adventuring party may not be initially obvious, but when used creatively, can be surprisingly effective. Playing a Druid is a challenge... one that many might find interesting to try if given a chance... especially after the group gets on the wrong side of an NPC druid (not hard to do, given the way most players seem to look down upon the OCC). This doesn't have to be an evil druid... but rather one with a low tolerance for the typical arrogance of adventurers (and a desire to teach them a lesson... something many druids are more than happy to do).
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Re: Druid OCC thoughts aka, I think it's lame and I hate it

Unread post by Reagren Wright »

Well I've made a Dwarf Druid NPCs as an optional character to be used for many of my
convention games. My goal was to get people who've never play a druid before show a little
interest him. It also helps he's from Bizantium and has some items from the Great Oak (hint to
Players and G.M.s out there, there are lots of Dwarf Druids in Bizantium). The guy who played
him at Gen Con seem to devote most of his attention to him.
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