Casting size of the behemoth on birds...

[pblackcrow]

Would the speed reduction to 6 still count?

[Damian Magecraft]

Would the speed reduction to 6 still count?

As a GM I would say yes.
But remember you can enchant things with more than one spell. (Fly as the Eagle comes to mind...)

[Axelmania]

If you.are going to enchant your giant animal.with flight anyway then there is less reason for it to need to be a.bird. I guess it would still have a silhouette that blended in better. Fly up high enough and a big bird would look like a smaller one closer tongue ground.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Would the speed reduction to 6 still count?

As a GM I would say yes.
But remember you can enchant things with more than one spell. (Fly as the Eagle comes to mind...)

I agree with DM that you can have multiple spell effects on the same target.
I like the idea of casting SotB on a loyal pet.


Thou I do reserve the word enchant for permanent magic objects. Not that there can't be multiple enchantments on an target too.

[ShadowHawk]

on the ground, yes. flying, no!

[Prysus]

on the ground, yes. flying, no!

Greetings and Salutations. While I didn't do the math, I think the bird at 1200 pounds would be too heavy to fly (at least not without additional magic). Farewell and safe journeys.

[kiralon]

if the dm allows you to cast it on a bird (does specifically say other person otherwise wizards would go around casting it on spiders and the like and not have to spend as much ppe as casting monster insect, but the potion doesn't have that limitation hehe) that would probably increase their land speed (birds aren't particularly fast on land), but as prysus mentioned I wouldn't let them fly with extra magics as their wingspan and strength wouldn't be big as strength is not supernatural. Flight or levitate/weight reducing magics would certainly help here though.
A 20ft tall Tasmanian Devil would certainly be a sight to see, and flying around on a 20ft butterfly would be sorta cool if you could get it to go the right way.
If you giant size a pig and eat it (or part of it), do you suddenly get hungry when the SoB spell wears out ?

[ShadowHawk]

on the ground, yes. flying, no!

Greetings and Salutations. While I didn't do the math, I think the bird at 1200 pounds would be too heavy to fly (at least not without additional magic). Farewell and safe journeys.

consider for a moment, a 30 PS giant strength, which giant strength, in this case is better than superntural. it's a fairly new concept. not sure if Shannon has talked about it before...and just say at 20' a man at a 30 PS has x2 Supernatural Strength, meaning he could lift 3000lbs and hurl it about 60 feet, where as someone at 10' and a strength of 30 has normal supernatural strength, thus could only lift 1500lbs and hurl it 30'. a man at 30' can lift and throw 3x supernatural, at 3x the distance. so, yes, size does matter. I could be wrong on that though...seam like I am. I don't have my notes with me at this time. in retrospect it seams like it was x2 for 15'. I am not sure.

oh, um 1200 for a 20' bird is way under fed. and talk about an unrealistic number for a 20' man!!! 1200. Try between 6000 and 7000lbs, I think is what the 13th issue of Dragon Magazine said. I love to use it as a reference. The charts and things are great!

[Prysus]

consider for a moment, a 30 PS giant strength

Greetings and Salutations. So consider you're using house rules as your basis, got it.

Try between 6000 and 7000lbs, I think is what the 13th issue of Dragon Magazine said. I love to use it as a reference. The charts and things are great!

So more house rules, got it.

Okay, so with the new information to consider, this would have changed my initial response. With this added insight, I would've read the original question as: "I'm using house rules (which won't be stated, you'll just have to guess), with some other house rules (which also won't be stated, so keep guessing), and I'm wondering if these house rules combined allow me to house rule away the penalty to a spell. What do you guys think?"

And since I have no interest in trying to explain to someone else how their house rules work, nor do I feel someone should need my permission to make a house rule based upon their house rules (so basically nothing to do with me in any possible way), I'd then have just closed the thread and proceeded to ignore it from then on. But since I'm here, if someone's confused enough by their own house rules to need to ask others how it works, then they should do away with that house rule. If you're NOT confused by your house rule, then you should know how it works better than others and you shouldn't need to ask others how it works. Farewell and safe journeys.

[ShadowHawk]

#1. I am the GM here in this case. #2. I'm sorry, but I don't think that Palladium Books always thinks things through. look at the weight of the griffin. and they are supposed to be mounts of men. HOW? answer me this?

There needs to be some logical sense to the numbers here. I know it's magic and all, but come on!

oh, and the 6000 and 7000lbs was for a man, not a bird.

[eliakon]

#1. I am the GM here in this case. #2. I'm sorry, but I don't think that Palladium Books always thinks things through. look at the weight of the griffin. and they are supposed to be mounts of men. HOW? answer me this?

There needs to be some logical sense to the numbers here. I know it's magic and all, but come on!

oh, and the 6000 and 7000lbs was for a man, not a bird.

I would, personally, agree with you.
Its a big bird, thus the logic says "dude it can fly and would make a neat mount" therefore time to brush up on that Horseman: Exotic skill.

[Prysus]

I would, personally, agree with you.
Its a big bird, thus the logic says "dude it can fly and would make a neat mount" therefore time to brush up on that Horseman: Exotic skill.

Greetings and Salutations. I'd generally agree with both of you as well. In general, I try not to even apply too much logic into magic. For example, in this example, my first reaction would be to just say the bird moves at a speed of 6 (flying or not), because it's a limitation of the spell. My brain doesn't do half measures very well though. So when someone comes up with theory: "Hey, logic says a bird should be able to fly faster, so this can get around the limitations of this magic spell."

Then my brain says: "Okay, you want to apply logic into this? First, well first I'd have to say that the reason humans would be limited to a speed of 6 is due to the increase of weight (bigger and slower) as well as probably being a bit awkward due to being unaccustomed to that size (think of clumsy kids during growth spurts). Birds flight can be explained through science, not magic. Once you start messing with that equation, adding in extra weight and size (which are predetermined, not a straight conversion up for size to allow for the same balance), an awkward bird shouldn't be able to fly. A semi-truck is bigger than a car, but that doesn't mean it can handle as well or that it'll win NASCAR." And my brain won't accept the answer of: "But ... magic!" While that is an acceptable answer in most cases, not once you try to remove the limitations of magic away with logic. I'm more of the mindset to pick a side as opposed to having the best of both worlds.

However, this is all personal opinion, and has nothing to do with their game. Maybe they just want magic to be more powerful, maybe it suits the rest of the power level of the campaign, maybe it's rule of cool and everything else be damned, maybe a million other reasons. This all kind of brings me to my second point ...

#2. I'm sorry, but I don't think that Palladium Books always thinks things through.
[snip]
I know it's magic and all, but come on!

I definitely don't think Palladium always thinks things through. I'm a huge fan of house rules and use them all the time.

With that said, I (personally) don't think it's beneficial to ask a group of strangers: #1. How your house rules work if you don't know. If a question is based upon your house rules, you should be able to figure it out. #2. How your G.M. will house rule something. Ask the G.M. I find asking in person preferable, but other options include calling on the phone, sending an e-mail, sending an instant message, Skype, private message, or various other methods of contact (if you're playing in a game together, you have to have a way of communicating together). If this message board was by some miracle your only method of contact and you were unable to use the private message feature for some mysterious reason, you could always address your post to the person (in this case, the G.M.) in question.

Asking a group of strangers to answer the question, which will end up with you ignoring their answers because they don't know the house rules in question (nor could they possibly know all of them). It wastes everyone's time by asking those not the G.M. People will take the time answering the question asked, which those answers will then be ignored because they don't know all the house rules at work. So it wastes other people's times responding (because they don't know all the details and their answers are ultimately meaningless), and it wastes your time reading it (because they're not answering the question you wanted because they don't know the group or rules in question, and even if they did their opinions are meaningless compared to that of the G.M.).

Think about it this way: If you ask a question on these forums and Shannon is your G.M. for that game, if posters on this forum show book numbers or prove scientific fact why something won't work, and then Shannon says: "sure, it can work because xyz" are you going to ignore Shannon because some forum posters disagreed? Or if Shannon is the player and you're the G.M. (such as in this case) and everyone says it won't work for whatever reason, are you going to suddenly say: "Sorry Shannon, I was going to allow it, but the internet said I couldn't"?

Now, again, I think house rules are great. I also wholeheartedly believe the G.M. should have final say. I also think that asking a forum's opinion on a matter when their opinions will ultimately be meaningless is a waste of everyone's time (and the question won't help others in their personal games unless they're using the exact same house rules as you are, which is unlikely). This is why I normally ignore such threads. I read slowly and I type slowly. This means when I post I have to put in time and effort. I generally also check a few books before posting to try and give as accurate of an answer as possible (though sometimes I miss something, and sometimes I'm just wrong), which means more time and effort. I don't mind that someone doesn't agree with me (whether it be because I'm wrong or it's a matter of opinion). It happens. Everyone's different and I'm not perfect. *Shrugs.* On the other hand, threads where it's predetermined to basically ignore everyone's posts is the equivalent of a big middle finger.

This post (as of me typing this sentence) has already been about 50 minutes of my time. A part of me says I shouldn't have given that much time or energy, but as I said I don't like doing half measures. So since I've already taken the time to commit to a first post, I try to see it through. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[ShadowHawk]

I did not start this thread. I am defending my original post that a speed of 6 is fine for ground, but not for flighting (NOTE: I've not said how fast. because the is possibility exists that he is talking about casting it on an emu or peacock, but I would reduce the speed of flight down to 12.)

I will to debunk the claim that a 20' high bird with a strength of 30, weighing 1200lbs would be too heavy to fly, now that I have had the time to go through Monsters and Animals. everyone, read the max given wait on the pegasus. is everyone on board that the bird can fly, even without the giant strength.

NO, Prysus, I wasn't saying logically it could fly faster...I was just saying "Logically, the bird can fly!"

[ShadowHawk]

I did not start this thread. I am defending my original post that a speed of 6 is fine for ground, but not for flighting (NOTE: I've not said how fast. because the is possibility exists that he is talking about casting it on an emu or peacock, but I would reduce the speed of flight down to 12.)

I will to debunk the claim that a 20' high bird with a strength of 30, weighing 1200lbs would be too heavy to fly, now that I have had the time to go through Monsters and Animals. everyone, read the max given wait on the pegasus. is everyone on board that the bird can fly, even without the giant strength.

NO, Prysus, I wasn't saying logically it could fly faster...I was just saying "Logically, the bird can fly!"

[kiralon]

And logically I would have to disagree
The Pegasus would have to fly using magic, and being a magical creature it is taken as a given, not to mention it would need magic to control its flight as well, just like dragons.
A bird suddenly grown huge not so much.
The wingspan would have to be huge, the bird would have to be unnaturally strong AND have an unnatural stamina because of the amount of energy it takes to keep that weight in the air. There is a reason that there aren't any huge flying creatures in real life, and that is the structure of a bird can't land without breaking leg bones if it gets to big because the bones have to be very light, not to mention the energy needed to get aloft and stay aloft.
This bird would likely shatter its leg bones landing, if its own body weight didn't break its bones already. Thing would be twice the size of an elephant, and elephants have heavy dense bones to hold the weight, not hollow bones conducive to flight.

If you cast fly like an eagle and super strength and super speed and invulnerability would probably allow it to do what was needed.

If you converted what an elephant can carry back into strength the way it is in the book an elephant would have a strength of around 450. 9000lbs % 20 (20 is the non supernatural modifier for carrying weight)

http://pastebin.com/RvqahXVf has a semi decent writeup about the vulture supervillian and his flying abilities and what it takes the larger you get.

[Prysus]

I did not start this thread. I am defending my original post that a speed of 6 is fine for ground, but not for flighting (NOTE: I've not said how fast. because the is possibility exists that he is talking about casting it on an emu or peacock, but I would reduce the speed of flight down to 12.)

Greetings and Salutations. No, you didn't. I'll list the order of events (at least from my perspective).

1: You posted that a bird in flight wouldn't be reduced to the speed of 6.
2: I said I'm not sure it could fly.
3: You defended the claim it can fly via house rules, and told me to consider those.
4: I said with that new consideration, I wouldn't have bothered to post because I'm not interested in posting how someone else's house rules should work (I'm still not). At the time, I had taken it that Shannon was the G.M. (and you were the player, but the fact it's vice versa doesn't change my opinion on what a waste of time this thread is).
5: You defended your position with how ill-thought out the books are.
6: I said I still didn't care, and this thread is still a waste of time (for me, and most others really).
7: Your last post.
8: My response (this post right now), and still thinking this thread is a waste of almost everyone's time.

I will to debunk the claim that a 20' high bird with a strength of 30, weighing 1200lbs would be too heavy to fly, now that I have had the time to go through Monsters and Animals. everyone, read the max given wait on the pegasus.

So using a Creature of Magic as your defense. Interesting. Gryphons are also Creatures of Magic. Both are clearly listed as such in PF1. Dragons are also Creatures of Magic who weigh over a ton and can still fly (at least most of them), some even without wings. Using a Creature of Magic to support your stance isn't convincing me ... in the slightest. Most of the monsters listed in Monsters & Animals that can fly are either real birds (or based off them) or have magical origins.

is everyone on board that the bird can fly, even without the giant strength.

I'm on board that it can fly via the magic allowing it to retain its natural ability... in which case it has a flight speed of 6 because of that same magic.

NO, Prysus, I wasn't saying logically it could fly faster...I was just saying "Logically, the bird can fly!"

You're saying it can fly faster than a Speed of 6. So you are saying it can fly faster. I don't care if you house rule it's a Speed of 7 flight, that's faster than 6. This shouldn't even be a matter of debate that you're taking that stance. Even in this post you clearly stated you'd probably rule a Speed of 12, and 12 is twice the speed of 6 (so faster). I'm guessing you figured I was trying to say something which I wasn't. But, for the record, any claim/theory that a bird can fly faster than a Speed of 6 (so 7 or higher) is "faster" than 6.

Now with all that said, you shouldn't feel the need to defend your house rules to me. I don't care. That's not meant to be mean, but I seriously don't care. They don't affect me at all (other than the fact they've led to this pointless debate). If I was in your game, I'd accept your house rules because you're the G.M. If I was the G.M., I'd expect you to respect my house rules just the same. We're neither. So all of this discussion continues to be pointless. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[eliakon]

Oh I am totally in the camp of "Yes it can fly..."
AND in the camp of "...but at speed 6"
But hey, it looks cool, flies, and when not in use can live in a little cage eating bird seed so you win some you lose some.

[ShadowHawk]

NO, Prysus, I wasn't saying logically it could fly faster...I was just saying "Logically, the bird can fly!"

I meant faster then it has ever flown!!! But, I think you knew that.

[Prysus]

NO, Prysus, I wasn't saying logically it could fly faster...I was just saying "Logically, the bird can fly!"

I meant faster then it has ever flown!!! But, I think you knew that.

Greetings and Salutations. I suspected that was a possibility (and I mention I had such a "guess" in my last post), but I didn't "know" you were telling me I was wrong about something I never said. Since you said I was wrong (and you addressed me by name) and I never made the claim you corrected, I decided to address what I did say.

I used the term "faster," and the context of this thread is not being reduced to a speed of 6. So flying faster than "it has ever flown" is an element only you've introduced into this thread and has zero context to anything else. Try going back and reading what I originally wrote. See if the use of "faster" applies the way I'm saying (hint: it does). Then consider maybe before condemning other people for not knowing exactly what you mean, you also don't know what everyone else always means. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[pblackcrow]

What the hell, guys? Enough...I do not like to have my post locked. Okay? And no, Shawn, I don't believe I have outlined my house rules on giant strength. Of course, I have been on here quite awhile.