Questions about Power Words

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Questions about Power Words

Unread post by SolCannibal »

Hello people, i have some doubts on the subject of symbols, power words & etc to make, stuff that i'm trying to get a hang on to maybe explore in Rifts, that i'm more familiar with.

- What are the differences between wards, symbols and power words and how relevant can be the knowledge of each to spellcasters outside of Summoners or Diabolists, specially for those coming from dimensions unrelated to the world of Palladium?

- Have any power words beside the 19 in the PF corebook ever been introduced?

- What effect could it have in a game to introduce "new"/long lost power words, be it on the hands of individual NPCs or as freshly discovered/newly acessible lore, or making some of the canon ones inacessible/unknown in a certain region, world or dimension?

- The book associates some power words with the Old Ones, but others with Demon/Deevil lords, angels, dragons and even powerful mortal (elven) wizards. Could there be forgotten Old Ones or Power Words associated with other beings (like certain of the beings in Dragons & Gods or Pantheons of the Megaverse, Nyxla from Psyscape, or Cormal, Destroyer of Worlds from Dimensional Outbreak among others)?

- Are there any sort of guidelines for introducing/making up new power words, symbols and such in one's game or would it be more of a "make it up as you go along" kind of thing?

Any kind of input, suggestions and criticisms would be most appreciated, thanks a bunch for taking the time to help this "noob" of sorts.
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Re: Questions about Power Words

Unread post by kiralon »

Mostly the difference is what they are used with

Wards make ward chains to do things
symbols can be modifiers for wards and are also used with circles
Power words are what you use to activate the circles and wards (with ppe as well of course)
Not particularly relevant, doesn't help with the other known types of magic, only helps to see if the ward might actually be real or not.


No extra power words to my knowledge, I think a psionics ward was added by a rifter maybe.


It would add extra flavour as it means diabolists and summoners would get more power, unless you are going round fus-ro-dah'ing things.
but as long as its done well it shouldnt matter what it is and would be good fun.


Apparently if you get powerful enough you warp reality and saying your name blows stuff up, or does other things.

no guidelines, make it up as you go.

Check other games (pc and tabletop) for magical things you like and incorporate them. You like the language of dragons from skyrim, modify it a bit and use it. You like the way runes work out of Ultima 7, use that too. Palladium had a lot of different types of magic so anything you do could easily just be something they missed in the millennium of purification.
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Re: Questions about Power Words

Unread post by SolCannibal »

So, i'm mostly free to work it out, what's good, though some reference material might nice for balance sake too.

The "powerful enough you warp reality and saying your name blows stuff up" part is one i want to strike something of a gauge for.

As Xy has a power word, Thoth (being basically mind-whammied Xy) most certainly should get a power word of its own. As he was a key player in imprisoning the Old Ones along with Lictalon, Kym-nark-mar and others, a number of diabolists, summoners and other savants across the ages would certainly try to find ways of using it - and things be quite different in the setting if such experimenting savants inadvertently found out the actual power word for the god to be "Xy". :twisted:

So a power word for Thoth is not only a valid addition, but seems like a sensible addition for the sake of setting consistency.

Also, as Xy is also supposed to represent power incarnate - and more powerful than even the other Old Ones - i can (fortunately) set the experience bar much lower for other power words & symbols and the entities tied to them. ;)
As they are mentioned as major nemeses of Lictalon (whose name became a power word) in his mythic campaign to conquer Hades in millenia long past, I'm tempted to use Mantus and Mania as my "experience bar" for how big one being needs to be to get that special (though renown-reverence most certainly play a role too). There's also Kym-nark-mar, whom i forgot about in the Dragonwright pantheon, but then, between 18-20th and 19-22th level one might say the bar is doesn't budge all that much anyway. :-P

Overall, it looks like what i have to do more of is a good, long read of PF's info in the subject to get a good hang of what kind of crazy stuff i can do to my Rifts games with it and what i might add or not along the way...
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Re: Questions about Power Words

Unread post by Library Ogre »

SolCannibal wrote:Hello people, i have some doubts on the subject of symbols, power words & etc to make, stuff that i'm trying to get a hang on to maybe explore in Rifts, that i'm more familiar with.

- What are the differences between wards, symbols and power words and how relevant can be the knowledge of each to spellcasters outside of Summoners or Diabolists, specially for those coming from dimensions unrelated to the world of Palladium?


Think of it like a fairly complex grammar.
A ward is a sentence. The ward symbols are the nouns and verbs of the sentence; the "regular" magic symbols can serve as adjectives and adverbs. Each of the ward symbols, though, is pronounced through the power words... sort of how a single symbol in Japanese can convey a concept, which requires multiple syllables to say... the one that comes to mind is "ichi-ban", which is two or three syllables to an English speaker, but is a single symbol and a single word.

So, the ward phrase may read [Power] [Protection from] [Fire], and will be written with those three symbols, it will be pronounced with the power words (that I can't be arsed to look up right now).

- Have any power words beside the 19 in the PF corebook ever been introduced?

- What effect could it have in a game to introduce "new"/long lost power words, be it on the hands of individual NPCs or as freshly discovered/newly acessible lore, or making some of the canon ones inacessible/unknown in a certain region, world or dimension?


To my knowledge, no, but later games have de-emphasized them. There is some debate among magical scholars and scholar-monks as to what the power words are and how they work... it's not clear if they're universal truths or specific to the Palladium World. I would not be surprised if they are many power words not known on the Palladium World, and the ward symbols may have entirely different pronounciations on other worlds.

Of far greater import would be the introduction of new ward symbols... new words you could say, even if you're limited to the 19 "syllables"

- The book associates some power words with the Old Ones, but others with Demon/Deevil lords, angels, dragons and even powerful mortal (elven) wizards. Could there be forgotten Old Ones or Power Words associated with other beings (like certain of the beings in Dragons & Gods or Pantheons of the Megaverse, Nyxla from Psyscape, or Cormal, Destroyer of Worlds from Dimensional Outbreak among others)?

- Are there any sort of guidelines for introducing/making up new power words, symbols and such in one's game or would it be more of a "make it up as you go along" kind of thing?

Any kind of input, suggestions and criticisms would be most appreciated, thanks a bunch for taking the time to help this "noob" of sorts.


There's no particular guildelines; I'm a big fan of benchmarking (i.e. things that currently exist do X, so mine shouldn't be doing 3X without a good reason). I don't see any reason you can't make new ones... but I would also provide a means for diabolists to figure them out, since it's their baliwick.
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Re: Questions about Power Words

Unread post by eliakon »

One thing I have wondered is...
Were the Power Words named for the entities?
Or were the entities named after the Power Words?
I mean if you were a being of cosmic power, you might call yourself Xy, which in the language of magic means "Unbridled power"...

As for new wards/circles from the 1st ed. base book we have two wards, Pox and Sight, though they are sadly ill defined. In several books there are various new circles.
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Re: Questions about Power Words

Unread post by SolCannibal »

Mark Hall wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:Hello people, i have some doubts on the subject of symbols, power words & etc to make, stuff that i'm trying to get a hang on to maybe explore in Rifts, that i'm more familiar with.

- What are the differences between wards, symbols and power words and how relevant can be the knowledge of each to spellcasters outside of Summoners or Diabolists, specially for those coming from dimensions unrelated to the world of Palladium?


Think of it like a fairly complex grammar.
A ward is a sentence. The ward symbols are the nouns and verbs of the sentence; the "regular" magic symbols can serve as adjectives and adverbs. Each of the ward symbols, though, is pronounced through the power words... sort of how a single symbol in Japanese can convey a concept, which requires multiple syllables to say... the one that comes to mind is "ichi-ban", which is two or three syllables to an English speaker, but is a single symbol and a single word.

So, the ward phrase may read [Power] [Protection from] [Fire], and will be written with those three symbols, it will be pronounced with the power words (that I can't be arsed to look up right now).


That is actually quite helpful indeed and the comparison to kanji and japanese 'kanas points some very interesting directions one might go with exploring it, food for thought.

Mark Hall wrote:
- Have any power words beside the 19 in the PF corebook ever been introduced?

- What effect could it have in a game to introduce "new"/long lost power words, be it on the hands of individual NPCs or as freshly discovered/newly acessible lore, or making some of the canon ones inacessible/unknown in a certain region, world or dimension?


To my knowledge, no, but later games have de-emphasized them. There is some debate among magical scholars and scholar-monks as to what the power words are and how they work... it's not clear if they're universal truths or specific to the Palladium World. I would not be surprised if they are many power words not known on the Palladium World, and the ward symbols may have entirely different pronounciations on other worlds.

Of far greater import would be the introduction of new ward symbols... new words you could say, even if you're limited to the 19 "syllables"


Yes, the issue of power word universality or not has been left quite nebulous indeed when one compares PF and later games - Rifts mostly ignores them, while at the same time using a magic system quite divided between ripping PF or being its own thing, not to mention referencing the Diabolist in a number of NPCs across its books, same mostly applies to Phaseworld, while Nightbane has indeed a quite different and mostly independent magic system, if memory tricks me not and HU is something of an anything goes case.

Beside this there's also the fact the character section of PF has in its "Land of Origin" table the "Other world, dimension or time" for those who roll 97-00, read, about 4% of all adventures in the world of Palladium could be dimension-hoppers, though they use exactly the same rules and O.C.C.s, making a very subtle sideways case for the universality or at least widespread applicability across the cosmos, of this sort of magic among others.

Mark Hall wrote:
- The book associates some power words with the Old Ones, but others with Demon/Deevil lords, angels, dragons and even powerful mortal (elven) wizards. Could there be forgotten Old Ones or Power Words associated with other beings (like certain of the beings in Dragons & Gods or Pantheons of the Megaverse, Nyxla from Psyscape, or Cormal, Destroyer of Worlds from Dimensional Outbreak among others)?

- Are there any sort of guidelines for introducing/making up new power words, symbols and such in one's game or would it be more of a "make it up as you go along" kind of thing?

Any kind of input, suggestions and criticisms would be most appreciated, thanks a bunch for taking the time to help this "noob" of sorts.


There's no particular guildelines; I'm a big fan of benchmarking (i.e. things that currently exist do X, so mine shouldn't be doing 3X without a good reason). I don't see any reason you can't make new ones... but I would also provide a means for diabolists to figure them out, since it's their baliwick.


Yes, i have something of a big soft spot for benchmarking too, so i can certainly relate.

Eliakon, those are some interesting points/questions you brought up, though overall i gravitate more towards the former than the later.
Speaking of books with new circles and such, ain't there one about the Old Ones and their worshippers? I would guess it would be a good place to look.
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Re: Questions about Power Words

Unread post by The Dark Elf »

I used a new Power word for Cannibal Magic.
Rifter 52 Cannibal Magic
Rifter 55 The Ancestral Mystic P.C.C.
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Re: Questions about Power Words

Unread post by SolCannibal »

The Dark Elf wrote:I used a new Power word for Cannibal Magic.


Hmmm, and how does that work out/fit in the game exactly? Giving Cannibal Magic a power word, i mean.
While I'm not familiar with the brand of magic per se, i guess reading the Rifter article should inform me on it. :wink:
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Re: Questions about Power Words

Unread post by The Dark Elf »

SolCannibal wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:I used a new Power word for Cannibal Magic.


Hmmm, and how does that work out/fit in the game exactly? Giving Cannibal Magic a power word, i mean.
While I'm not familiar with the brand of magic per se, i guess reading the Rifter article should inform me on it. :wink:


Well the reason I used is because all of the listed power words include the names of the listed Old Ones - except for one...
Rifter 52 Cannibal Magic
Rifter 55 The Ancestral Mystic P.C.C.
Rifter 59 The Lopanic Games adventure "The Lion, the Ditch & the Warlock". Illustrations to this adventure can be found here.
Rifter 71 & 72 Double Issue Ninjas & Superspies adventure "On a Wing & a Prayer"
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Re: Questions about Power Words

Unread post by SolCannibal »

The Dark Elf wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:I used a new Power word for Cannibal Magic.


Hmmm, and how does that work out/fit in the game exactly? Giving Cannibal Magic a power word, i mean.
While I'm not familiar with the brand of magic per se, i guess reading the Rifter article should inform me on it. :wink:


Well the reason I used is because all of the listed power words include the names of the listed Old Ones - except for one...


Yes, that does make for a pretty good hook to insert a bunch of stuff in one's Palladium games indeed, though i don't know at the moment which Old One would it be.
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Re: Questions about Power Words

Unread post by Marcethus »

Granted my collection of books is outdated, re: I haven't had the chance to buy any new books in a long while. The only non PF source where Power words/Wards mentioned is: Rifts South America 2 has the Nazca Line Maker that it has a note that a Diabolist/Summoner could learn Nazca Line Magic and vice versa.
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Re: Questions about Power Words

Unread post by SolCannibal »

Marcethus wrote:Granted my collection of books is outdated, re: I haven't had the chance to buy any new books in a long while. The only non PF source where Power words/Wards mentioned is: Rifts South America 2 has the Nazca Line Maker that it has a note that a Diabolist/Summoner could learn Nazca Line Magic and vice versa.


Wow, that's some really hefty stuff to chew upon, as i really didn't remember such reference. Have to re-read some books indeed. Thanks.
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Re: Questions about Power Words

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Your Welcome :P
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Re: Questions about Power Words

Unread post by Dracolych68 »

The new ward is the one for "psychic", used like "magic" and is found in the last part of the adventure "Quest for Castlerake"

What books are the old 'new wards' in? Think they are going to reprint and update them in one of the new magic books for PF, least what I've read.
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Re: Questions about Power Words

Unread post by SolCannibal »

Dracolych68 wrote:The new ward is the one for "psychic", used like "magic" and is found in the last part of the adventure "Quest for Castlerake"


That's the adventure in Rifter 31, right? Might look for it.

Dracolych68 wrote:What books are the old 'new wards' in? Think they are going to reprint and update them in one of the new magic books for PF, least what I've read.


Would like to know that too.
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Re: Questions about Power Words

Unread post by Razorwing »

I was always under the impression that Invocations (spell magic) also used many of the Power Words to help focus and channel the PPE that a wizard casts... as there is usually both vocalizations and specific gestures involved with most magic spells (though it is possible to learn to cast magic without either through intense mental concentration... but usually takes twice as long and costs twice as much).

Unfortunately, I can't remember at the moment where I saw any of this (Heart of Magic maybe?). If I find it, I'll post it.
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Re: Questions about Power Words

Unread post by SolCannibal »

Well, for me it's partly a matter of making some sense of the multiple references to symbols and such associations in the write-ups of the egyptian gods and some of the other figures in Dragons & Gods, maybe expanding some the basics in PF based on it and what kind of use i could get out it for exploring magic-related stuff (would some of the gods or imposters in Pantheons of Megaverse be eligible for symbols, words and wards of their own, etc) in Rifts games.
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Re: Questions about Power Words

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Razorwing wrote:I was always under the impression that Invocations (spell magic) also used many of the Power Words to help focus and channel the PPE that a wizard casts... as there is usually both vocalizations and specific gestures involved with most magic spells (though it is possible to learn to cast magic without either through intense mental concentration... but usually takes twice as long and costs twice as much).

Unfortunately, I can't remember at the moment where I saw any of this (Heart of Magic maybe?). If I find it, I'll post it.

Part of it might come from Ocean Magic notes in Rifts WB7 where you can use intense mental concentration for a prolonged casting time underwater if you can not speak. Though the extra PPE and other bits I'm not sure on.
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Re: Questions about Power Words

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Razorwing wrote:I was always under the impression that Invocations (spell magic) also used many of the Power Words to help focus and channel the PPE that a wizard casts... as there is usually both vocalizations and specific gestures involved with most magic spells (though it is possible to learn to cast magic without either through intense mental concentration... but usually takes twice as long and costs twice as much).

Unfortunately, I can't remember at the moment where I saw any of this (Heart of Magic maybe?). If I find it, I'll post it.


I know it's in 1st edition, but I don't have it handy to give a page reference. wizards know and use the 4 basic power words. Warlocks have the 4 elemental powers. Diabolists and Summoners use all 16 power words.
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Re: Questions about Power Words

Unread post by SolCannibal »

Mark Hall wrote:
Razorwing wrote:I was always under the impression that Invocations (spell magic) also used many of the Power Words to help focus and channel the PPE that a wizard casts... as there is usually both vocalizations and specific gestures involved with most magic spells (though it is possible to learn to cast magic without either through intense mental concentration... but usually takes twice as long and costs twice as much).

Unfortunately, I can't remember at the moment where I saw any of this (Heart of Magic maybe?). If I find it, I'll post it.


I know it's in 1st edition, but I don't have it handy to give a page reference. wizards know and use the 4 basic power words. Warlocks have the 4 elemental powers. Diabolists and Summoners use all 16 power words.


From the Heart of Magic mention, i think he meant references in a Rifts context/books, what truth be told, would be indeed quite nice for one to find.
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Re: Questions about Power Words

Unread post by eliakon »

SolCannibal wrote:
Dracolych68 wrote:The new ward is the one for "psychic", used like "magic" and is found in the last part of the adventure "Quest for Castlerake"


That's the adventure in Rifter 31, right? Might look for it.

Dracolych68 wrote:What books are the old 'new wards' in? Think they are going to reprint and update them in one of the new magic books for PF, least what I've read.


Would like to know that too.

Palladium Fantasy base book, 1st edition not 2nd
in the Tombs of the Gersedi adventure there are two wards. Pox is on page 261, and Seeing is found on page 254.
I have no idea if they are going to be brought over in a future MoM, or when/if the Tombs adventure is converted.
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Re: Questions about Power Words

Unread post by mirithol »

I added two new words of power to my game - both are one syllable and in opposition to each other. They are derived from an Old One's power, but not its name. And they are essential to the plot. They are, at present, still secret.

As an aside, we added a new player to our group who wanted to play a "classic role-playing adventure" so I converted the Tomb of Horrors to the Palladium system (most of us started playing RPGs around the time the original D&D players handbook was published). It was a blast from the past for some (Oh, how little we remember from way back when) with a few new twists added. When a wish was gained in the course of play, the warlock with a busted staff of the magi he had just found said, "OK - make this whole and fully functioning." Players - geez - I didn't expect that. And so it was, a shiny new(ish) Staff of the Magi. But the warlock did not know how full the staff was (it overloads like an old Star Trek phaser if you try to recharge it when full - boom (not that that's how old Star Trek phasers overloaded for you Trek fans out there), but the effect was the same if the staff was overloaded), and each staff ability had a trigger word, none of which the warlock knew. I used variations of power words as triggers for staff spell powers. The warlock, at great expense, researched in Bletherad and found the "on" switch activating some passive staff powers. Then, a rat would gnaw a symbol (trigger word) outline in his expensive robe, or he'd awake from a horrific dream with a his fingers painfully twisted into a symbol shape, or a random swarm of bees would sting a symbol pattern into his skin while walking into town ("The bees attack, and it hurts, but you don't appear allergic - don't roll a 1 on a D20 - he rolled a 1 - you have to love dice). Being a warlock, the player character had an inkling (a roll),but not an understanding, of just what kind of power he was messing with, and became a little paranoid about who or what was feeding him this information, and, also, of bees. Tons of Fun.

Since this was old magic, I used some descriptions of magical effects from Dungeon Crawl Classics (a birthday gift from the new player and the old group) which have fairly terrifying physical manifestations when magic is cast such as with a basic climb spell where, when cast with the staff, the warlock sprouted four extra, hairy spider like limbs, or had purple sticky goo ooze from his hands and feet, or other weird effects like suddenly growing 8 spider like eyes. The effects would eventually wear off, but he was hard pressed to walk into a tavern with a bunch of spider eyes on your face. Sometimes, maybe most time, magic has a cost.

The moral of the story is, "Be careful what you wish for." As it should be. Words of power can be fun, especially for the G.M.

Cheers,

Miri
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