Converting MDC to SDC...HELP, PLEASE.

[ShadowHawk]

Should I do +1/2, x2, x3, x4, or x5 the MDC when converting it to SDC? Also, what type of AR should it have?

I thank you very much for your answers.

[Library Ogre]

General rule of thumb: MDC = SDC. AR should be about the AR of a similar type of armor, plus or minus 1 or 2.

[drewkitty ~..~]

There is the SDC<-->MDC text in the RCB1 & RCB1r

[ShadowLogan]

Should I do +1/2, x2, x3, x4, or x5 the MDC when converting it to SDC? Also, what type of AR should it have?

I thank you very much for your answers.

As Mark said, the general rule is 1:1 ratio, though when working with SDC/HP combos it can be different based on a variety of factors.

AR is not something that is easily converted unfortunately since MDC doesn't use the mechanic. There are suggested guidelines in some cases (technology based), but in others you might have to look for something similar (if converting a creature) as the suggested course can be very subjective.

As Drewkitty ~..~ mentioned, Rifts Conversion Book 1 original and revised has the guidelines, but I will add that "Dragons & Gods" (pg18-19) also has it. In some Rifts books (in my experience) they also provide the conversion for creatures, but not technological ones.

[Lukterran]

May I ask what MDC you are converting? A spell or a supernatural creature? We might be able to help with specifics. Normally like Mark said it is a 1:1 ratio. However, there are a few overly powerful Rift spells that shouldn't be converted at a 1:1 ratio due to the power creep and high power level that the Rifts Universe tends to have vs PF.

[pblackcrow]

Is this a spell you are using, if so I think I know the spell...It's basically just says convert SDC to MDC and it's optional to make it permanent, right? Anyway, here is how I would do it:
The 1st time it is cast gives whatever a x1/2 the SDC with an 18 for AR.

Spoiler:

Don't tell them this part the spell can be cast upto 4 times on an object, if it is done a 4th time
The 2nd casting will x2 whatever the original SDC amount, but decrease the AR by 2...Thus it will have a 16 AR.
The 3rd time it is cast will x3 of the original SDC of whatever, but will decrease the AR by 3...thus whatever will have a 13 AR.
The 4th time it is cast on the same whatever, whatever it is cast on turns will immediately burst into flames and turn to dust...NO SAVING THROWS, NOTHING!

[ShadowHawk]

okay, sorry everyone. my bad. um, no...true atlantien nomad got his 7th tattoo in game (and is in recovery). I did reduce the initial SDC of the character to 10 and the SDC per tat to 5 like PBC did in his games. but I wasn't really sure about what happens in palladium fantasy when the the 7th tattoo is given.

[pblackcrow]

Oh, woe...Congratulate the player for me. That really hasn't come up before in any of the games you were in. Hasn't for quite awhile in fact. Um, let me check my note books. But, I THINK that the character gets like 10 SDC for each additional tattoo past 6, but there is a chance of death because of it happening in a non megadamage world. I am trying to remember the exact details. I'm really not sure. It may have been in the folder I left on the bus during my trip to Canada. I hope not!

[pblackcrow]

Oh, and if anyone else has any ideas or thought on this, please by all means, do feel free! Just because he was in my games, doesn't mean I will always have the answer he will be looking for.

[pblackcrow]

Okay, I have lost the notebook w/ those notes. Unfortunately! Although I think it's a sliding 5% chance for every tattoo after 6. And it increases by 5 with every additional tattoo up to the 10th additional tattoo (17th total) then on that one it starts to decrease by 5% down to but never beyond a 20% chance. There must always be a chance in the game of death when receiving great power in my games. You've gamed with me enough, so you know this. Oh, and I THINK the characters AR goes up by 1 point for every 2 tattoos past the 6th. So, on the 8th s/he would have 1, 10th 2, 12th 3, and so on. As far as SDC goes, I wouldn't change it, just increase the amount of SDC s/he is given when they receive a tattoo up to 10.

This is just my take on it. I would like to read some of the others responses.

[drewkitty ~..~]

okay, sorry everyone. my bad. um, no...true atlantean nomad got his 7th tattoo in game (and is in recovery). I did reduce the initial SDC of the character to 10 and the SDC per tat to 5 like PBC did in his games. but I wasn't really sure about what happens in palladium fantasy when the the 7th tattoo is given.

There is no Canon Text about converting the effects of Tattoos in a SDC setting.

For SDC Settings
At 1st consideration I would double the +10 SDC giving by each tattoo, to +20 SDC or even up to +25 SDC starting with the 7th Tattoo and give the T-man have a Nat AR vs mundane attacks. Maybe something like NAR 6 +1 for every 2 tattoos over 6, maxing out at NAR 18.

note: The T-man would revert to the canon text when entering a MDC setting.

[Library Ogre]

I like Drew's AR based on number of tattoos, though I would probably drop it to AR = Number of Tattoos, or perhaps AR = Number of Tattoos + 4 (the base AR of human types)

[kiralon]

or you can just say that each tattoo you have gives the normal bonus to sdc but also lets you ignore a single physical blow from something physical but magic and psionics still hurts, so a giant can smack you into a wall and you don't feel it but a lightning bolt still frazzles you. You can make it per day, or per fight, or meditate for 10 mins per tattoo to recharge or something like that.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I like Drew's AR based on number of tattoos, though I would probably drop it to AR = Number of Tattoos, or perhaps AR = Number of Tattoos + 4 (the base AR of human types)

I thought about having the Nat. AR score directly proportional to the # of Tattoos but that would increase the score too fast for use in the PF setting. With Maxi-men starting out with 18 tattoos, and with my math they would have a Nat. AR of 12. That is the Nat. AR of Adult Dragons (low end of the range) and greater then most Hatchling dragons.

If it was a directly proportional to the # of Tats then the Maxi-men would start out with a Nat. AR of 18.

However, I did want to give the T-man a decent Nat AR even thou 'the change' is when they get their 7th magic tattoo.

A Nat AR of 1, 2, or 3 is just useless. So having it the #of Tats -6 did not appeal to me ether.

or you can just say that each tattoo you have gives the normal bonus to sdc but also lets you ignore a single physical blow from something physical but magic and psionics still hurts, so a giant can smack you into a wall and you don't feel it but a lightning bolt still frazzles you. You can make it per day, or per fight, or meditate for 10 mins per tattoo to recharge or something like that.

Damage soak……I would still have the char "Feel It" even if the attack does no damage. Like if it was a sussessful knock out attack then they would be ko'ed.
Not saying I would…..but if I did go down the damage soak path I would say that the magic would soak only 'One Die of Damage' per tattoo. (presuming the dies were d6's) per <time period> with a mandated rest period between being "used". More towards a rest period of 1 hr per die soaked or 8 hrs of sleep. With the word rest being looser then for recovering PPE….mostly no fighting would be the keystone of the meaning of rest for this.

[ShadowLogan]

okay, sorry everyone. my bad. um, no...true atlantean nomad got his 7th tattoo in game (and is in recovery). I did reduce the initial SDC of the character to 10 and the SDC per tat to 5 like PBC did in his games. but I wasn't really sure about what happens in palladium fantasy when the the 7th tattoo is given.

There is no Canon Text about converting the effects of Tattoos in a SDC setting.

For SDC Settings
At 1st consideration I would double the +10 SDC giving by each tattoo, to +20 SDC or even up to +25 SDC starting with the 7th Tattoo and give the T-man have a Nat AR vs mundane attacks. Maybe something like NAR 6 +1 for every 2 tattoos over 6, maxing out at NAR 18.

note: The T-man would revert to the canon text when entering a MDC setting.

There are two simple ways to handle the AR issue as I see it in this case (I do think AR is the hardest part to convert):
-an AR isn't conferred, just magically regenerating SDC (which explains why it becomes MDC on Rifts Earth, since not all creatures/spells use 1:1 conversion this would just be another special case)
-AR is a flat value that is achieved at the same "level" that MDC is arrived at and doesn't change simply by getting more tattoos, though I can see specific tattoos creating effects with different AR values resulting from layering (no different than if a metamorphed dragon put on a real/conjured suit of armor ).

Are there any Chiang-Ku Dragon NPCs with tattoos that might be reverse engineered? Their write-up in D&G doesn't provide insight into how to handle the Tattoos really. But it might give insight into the AR issue if a Hatchling/Adult has an altered AR because of any tattoos they have (which may or may not apply to non Chiang-Ku I admit).

[say652]

My quick conversion is mdc=sdc & mdc/3=Hp. Effectively a 33% bonus to the Mdc being in sec realms.
Minimum AR 11+ 1D6.

[Library Ogre]

I like Drew's AR based on number of tattoos, though I would probably drop it to AR = Number of Tattoos, or perhaps AR = Number of Tattoos + 4 (the base AR of human types)

I thought about having the Nat. AR score directly proportional to the # of Tattoos but that would increase the score too fast for use in the PF setting. With Maxi-men starting out with 18 tattoos, and with my math they would have a Nat. AR of 12. That is the Nat. AR of Adult Dragons (low end of the range) and greater then most Hatchling dragons.

If it was a directly proportional to the # of Tats then the Maxi-men would start out with a Nat. AR of 18.

However, I did want to give the T-man a decent Nat AR even thou 'the change' is when they get their 7th magic tattoo.

Good point. I would still start it at AR 4, not 6, but making it ratio rather than flat numbers (and imposing and AR cap) make a lot of sense.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Request: If you are Talking about Natural AR then please say Natural AR/Nat.AR/NAR please.
Leaving off what type of AR being talked about is the Worst thing about the HU2 Main Book. Why? Cause it causes confusion about exactly what form of AR is being talked about.

As far as I know I'm the only one talking about Natural AR when converting T-men MDC to SDC for a SDC setting.

[Library Ogre]

Context clues, man. We're talking about the skin of a living being, we mean natural AR.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Context clues, man. We're talking about the skin of a living being, we mean natural AR.

I can see stating fully what you mean to start, and then be lazy. But depending on people understanding any context clues you think are obvious is annoying to the reader that takes what is being said to be what the writer means.

There is the old saying "Say what you mean and Mean what you say."
----------------
I am going to agree with you that the stating NAR should be 4.

That way maxed out starting T-men have a lower NAR's then Dragons.

[Library Ogre]

I am going to agree with you that the stating NAR should be 4.
In addition to the NAR score being proportional to the number of tattoos and having a upper limit.
However, I will still disagree with the rate of proportionality, so even the most maxed out starting T-man has a lower NAR then Dragons.

I haven't argued on the proportion at all... I agree that 1:1 is a mistake, and think 3:1 might be better or 4:1 might be better.

Probably the best way to do it is take a reasonably powerful tattood class, and figure out how many they have at level 1, and how many they have at level 15 (including only their level-up tattoos, not ones they might pick up "because"). Then decide the range you want, and set your AR ratio by that.

[ShadowHawk]

Rather nice to see I sparked a discussion.

[ShadowLogan]

Context clues, man. We're talking about the skin of a living being, we mean natural AR.

I can see stating fully what you mean to start, and then be lazy. But depending on people understanding any context clues you think are obvious is annoying to the reader that takes what is being said to be what the writer means.

There is the old saying "Say what you mean and Mean what you say."
----------------
I am going to agree with you that the stating NAR should be 4.

That way maxed out starting T-men have a lower NAR's then Dragons.

Question:
How can we be sure that the Tattoos are actually conferring a NAR rating above 4 (which they'd have anyway)? Is there some precedent that all MDC to SDC conversion will confer an appropriate AR? Or is it just to give some reason for the X-# of tattoos will result in MDC in Rifts like environments? Or could a simpler way to handle the Tattoo issue be to give bonus to HP instead of SDC after that?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Context clues, man. We're talking about the skin of a living being, we mean natural AR.

I can see stating fully what you mean to start, and then be lazy. But depending on people understanding any context clues you think are obvious is annoying to the reader that takes what is being said to be what the writer means.

There is the old saying "Say what you mean and Mean what you say."
----------------
I am going to agree with you that the stating NAR should be 4.

That way maxed out starting T-men have a lower NAR's then Dragons.

Question:
How can we be sure that the Tattoos are actually conferring a NAR rating above 4 (which they'd have anyway)? Is there some precedent that all MDC to SDC conversion will confer an appropriate AR? Or is it just to give some reason for the X-# of tattoos will result in MDC in Rifts like environments? Or could a simpler way to handle the Tattoo issue be to give bonus to HP instead of SDC after that?

Q#1: *hands you the RCB1/RCB1r* nuff said.

Q#2: what is being said here is conjecture based on our understanding of what Magic Tattoos Are to make up a conversion for them based out of the text about MDC/MD to SDC/SD, for when the GM takes/Rifts the characters that possess them into a SDC setting.

Q#3: the thing is…..it is simpler to just add to the char a Fixed Nat. AR. And do nothing else. Even with this the chars looses out most powerful advantage of their Char Class. Which to be blatant about it….It Turns Them MDC.
Most of the talk is about how to let the Char keep their advantage, without turning the guidelines into munchkin bait.

[eliakon]

Context clues, man. We're talking about the skin of a living being, we mean natural AR.

I can see stating fully what you mean to start, and then be lazy. But depending on people understanding any context clues you think are obvious is annoying to the reader that takes what is being said to be what the writer means.

There is the old saying "Say what you mean and Mean what you say."
----------------
I am going to agree with you that the stating NAR should be 4.

That way maxed out starting T-men have a lower NAR's then Dragons.

Question:
How can we be sure that the Tattoos are actually conferring a NAR rating above 4 (which they'd have anyway)? Is there some precedent that all MDC to SDC conversion will confer an appropriate AR? Or is it just to give some reason for the X-# of tattoos will result in MDC in Rifts like environments? Or could a simpler way to handle the Tattoo issue be to give bonus to HP instead of SDC after that?

No.
It is just that people love the idea of getting the power of nAR and seem to, pardon the pun, naturally assume that everything that is MDC in Rifts is automatically in possession of nAR in PF.
Its not true of course. And there are lots of good reasons to think that this should not be the case (Chaing-6 has no AR...and 6 tattoos, one of which would have to be a combination tattoo, which would push him to 7 or 8.). But if you like the idea of tattoos granting even more passive power than they already do, go right ahead. I personally don't see any need for the boost in power. Just grant them the SDC and go with it.

[ShadowLogan]

Q#2: what is being said here is conjecture based on our understanding of what Magic Tattoos Are to make up a conversion for them based out of the text about MDC/MD to SDC/SD, for when the GM takes/Rifts the characters that possess them into a SDC setting.

I understand that it is conjecture at this point. I just do not see why the default assumption is that the Magic Tattoos are altering the AR of the subject.

Q#3: the thing is…..it is simpler to just add to the char a Fixed Nat. AR. And do nothing else. Even with this the chars looses out most powerful advantage of their Char Class. Which to be blatant about it….It Turns Them MDC.

Well the simplest would be to:
-not deal with the AR and just be to keep adding SDC, and have the MDC factors just apply to MDC universe(s), though I could see it at a certain point switching to a lower HP value instead of SDC
-even just have them NOT work in SDC universes (even the Dragon's who created it don't use it in PF any more by choice, but GM's could rule otherwise...) because the magic levels are to weak (there are cases in Rifts Earth history where things are only possible because of high levels of PPE mentioned in Japan and SA books IIRC).

The problem with determining a fixed NAR modifier is muti-fold in an SDC universe when coming from an MDC one:
-you might negate the usefulness of some of their tattoos that create armor for them (meaning the PPE and slots could have been better spent) depending on the actual resulting value
-Tattoos could be seen as similar to Wards being placed on a person, and they don't confer an AR alteration by default no matter how many you place on them
-there is precedent for not altering the AR at all in RCB1r (ex: a few Super Powers grant MDC but don't have AR normally, then you have creatures like the Bug Bears, Pegasus, and Wing Tips)
-no Chiang-Ku NPCs w/Tattoos & SDC stats to reverse engineer as a basis has been presented, nor any indication in D&Gs or WB3 about how to handle the Tattoos for them. I do not have an extensive Palladium Library, WB3 mentions Villains Unlimited (an SDC universe AND a Book I don't have) with an NPC Chiang-Ku. How does that NPC differ from the baseline in terms of NAR if they have Tattoo Magic at the pre-requisite 7+ for MDC to kick-in? If the Dragon isn't getting a boost to NAR in HU setting, why would other Tattoo users? eliakon reports there is no AR alteration to the Chiang-Ku NPC in question, which would set further precedent that no AR alteration is in play here
-there is no actual fixed way (one that works regardless of who/when) to determine the NAR by RCB1r, because they put it in terms of a range and broad categories so we have to work out which category a Tattoo user would fall into before we can even narrow down the AR range, and even then we still have to workout how to determine the AR w/n that range
-the MDC resiliency aspect may be a reflection of the advanced PPE levels of Rifts Earth/PW and not a function of Tattoo Magic itself

[drewkitty ~..~]

It would be paradoxical for the magic tattoos to not work in settings in which magic works.

Your Not seeing why: RCB1 the Text about converting MDC to SDC.

Fixed NAR……didn't touch this except to mention it as an option.

Armor Tattoos…..are easy…the Armor magic having a Nat AR 4 & doubling the MDC value in SDC.

Progressive NAR: this follows the idea that the T-man's protections get better over time.

Chang-ku: Chiang Six (reff. VUr) is not a Chan-Ku dragon, and does not have the same sort of Magic Tattoos as made by Chang-Ku, TA and Atlantis. So is not relevant in this discussion. Yes, there are different types of magic tattoos. (Four: Chang-Ku type, Danzi Type, Nat. Am. Fetish Type, and Chiang Six's)
Yes, having an example of a T-man NPC in a SDC setting would help with converting the CK/TA/A magic tattoos to all SDC settings. However, the only SDC setting with Chang-Ku dragons in it is the Dragons and Gods book. And it says there that the CK dragons do not give out magic tattoos there. Respecting the will of those who live on the PF world.


RCB1 NAR: Each GM sets the NAR for her or his games. Thus there is no need for a across the board "fix".

MDC of Tattoos: The stats for magic tattoos are defined as a part of a MDC setting. Which is why there is this discussion about how to convert them for use in an SDC setting.
In every MDC setting The magic tattoos we are talking about, T-men are MDC. Even in the RT setting. (based on 2nd hand talk about the magic in the Marines book. The Splicers book does not say to convert the spells to SDC/SD.

[eliakon]

It would be paradoxical for the magic tattoos to not work in settings in which magic works.

No one is saying they won't work. They are saying that they wont work as well.

Your Not Understanding: You should read about how to get rid of magic tattoos and why they come back if the limb they were on is regrown. Basic idea: The magic Tattoo is attached to the char's soul/being.

Um, besides being utterly condisending...this has nothing to do with the discussion. There is nothing about tattoos being attached to your 'mystic essence' that implies that the provide nAR.

<snip>

Armor Tattoos…..are easy…the Armor magic having a Nat AR 4 & doubling the MDC value in SDC.

And then your back to 'why have an armor that provides less protection than your body? (and the silly "nAR armor" thing but...)

Progressive NAR: this follows the idea that the T-man's protections get better over time.

And how is that not accomplished by getting SDC?

Chang-ku: Chiang Six (reff. VUr) is not a Chan-Ku dragon, and does not have the same sort of Magic Tattoos as made by Chang-Ku, TA and Atlantis. So is not relevant in this discussion. Yes, there are different types of magic tattoos. (Four: Chang-Ku type, Danzi Type, Nat. Am. Fetish Type, and Chiang Six's)

The text seems to imply otherwise. He has the unique racial magics, he can cast spells with magic tattoo's and of course...he has magic tattoo's. So either he is another unique Asian dragon race who invented tattoo magic with a brand new form of almost the same but not quite tattoo magic....
...or he has tattoo magic.
The claim that his tattoo's are different is a rather personal GM call, that is not supported in the text. Especially since there is the explicit claim that he was the source of the Tattoo magic system and Chaing-Ku dragons for the later books. Which is why they all look like him, have magic tattoos like him, have magic tea like him...

Yes, having an example of a T-man NPC in a SDC setting would help with converting the CK/TA/A magic tattoos to all SDC settings. However, the only SDC setting with Chang-Ku dragons in it is the Dragons and Gods book. And it says there that the CK dragons do not give out magic tattoos there. Respecting the will of those who live on the PF world.

And of course if one decides to not use Chaing-6 (who was explicitly said to be the source of the Chaing-Ku dragons and Tattoo magic for later books)

RCB1 NAR: Each GM sets the NAR for her or his games. Thus there is no need for a across the board "fix".

Which sort of defeats the idea of trying to come up with 'the right' formula for 'finding the nAR of a T-man'...

MDC of Tattoos: The stats for magic tattoos are defined as a part of a MDC setting. Which is why there is this discussion about how to convert them for use in an SDC setting.
In every MDC setting The magic tattoos we are talking about, T-men are MDC. Even in the RT setting. (based on 2nd hand talk about the magic in the Marines book. The Splicers book does not say to convert the spells to SDC/SD.

Yeah, so turn the M to an S like virtually every other form of magic in the game is advised to do and go.
What you would do in RT or Splicers doesn't really matter to PF at all does it. Since those are MD settings and thus sort of totally irrelevant to discussions about them in an SDC setting.
Although the Splicers comment that all magic is SDC would seem to suggest that, well, all magic is SDC. Even tattoos.

[drewkitty ~..~]

First thing first, talking about the Format I was using. most of the time it was <saying a reference point to what I was responding to> then { the response}

It would be paradoxical for the magic tattoos to not work in settings in which magic works.

No one is saying they won't work. They are saying that they wont work as well..

-even just have them NOT work in SDC universes…

Keeping in mind what people are responding to when responding to a response is a good thing to keep from making a blunder.

... There is nothing about tattoos being attached to your 'mystic essence' that implies that the provide nAR..

The Magic Tattoo text in RWB2 says that the magic is attached to the char's essence. For this topic I reread the Magic Tattoo text. The Text concerning this is the last sent. in the paragraph starting "Seven or more tattoos,…"
RCB1 text about changing MDC to SDC.

Armor Tattoos…..are easy…the Armor magic having a Nat AR 4 & doubling the MDC value in SDC.

And then your back to 'why have an armor that provides less protection than your body? (and the silly "nAR armor" thing but...).

Progressive NAR: this follows the idea that the T-man's protections get better over time.

And how is that not accomplished by getting SDC?.

As I said before in an earlier post, it lets the T-men keep their most potent advantage.
The RCB1 MDC to SDC text talks about this….as I said earlier.

Chang-ku: Chiang Six (reff. VUr) is not a Chan-Ku dragon, and does not have the same sort of Magic Tattoos as made by Chang-Ku, TA and Atlantis. So is not relevant in this discussion. Yes, there are different types of magic tattoos. (Four: Chang-Ku type, Danzi Type, Nat. Am. Fetish Type, and Chiang Six's)

The text seems to imply otherwise. He has the unique racial magics, he can cast spells with magic tattoo's and of course...he has magic tattoo's. So either he is another unique Asian dragon race who invented tattoo magic with a brand new form of almost the same but not quite tattoo magic....
...or he has tattoo magic.
The claim that his tattoo's are different is a rather personal GM call, that is not supported in the text. Especially since there is the explicit claim that he was the source of the Tattoo magic system and Chaing-Ku dragons for the later books. Which is why they all look like him, have magic tattoos like him, have magic tea like him....

C6 has a different type magic tattoos then the CK/TA/A Magic tattoos. This is based in the descriptions of how they work. Work differently=are different.
It is quite obvious that the the writer based the CK/TA/A style/form of Magic Tattoos were based off of core concept C6's tattoos. However, there was a mechanics change between the two. RtT This change was not incorporated into the VUr, thus they are still different.

Yes, having an example of a T-man NPC in a SDC setting would help with converting the CK/TA/A magic tattoos to all SDC settings. However, the only SDC setting with Chang-Ku dragons in it is the Dragons and Gods book. And it says there that the CK dragons do not give out magic tattoos there. Respecting the will of those who live on the PF world.

And of course if one decides to not use Chaing-6 (who was explicitly said to be the source of the Chaing-Ku dragons and Tattoo magic for later books).

Citation (book page paragraph) requested.

MDC of Tattoos: The stats for magic tattoos are defined as a part of a MDC setting. Which is why there is this discussion about how to convert them for use in an SDC setting.
In every MDC setting The magic tattoos we are talking about, T-men are MDC. Even in the RT setting. (based on 2nd hand talk about the magic in the Marines book. The Splicers book does not say to convert the spells to SDC/SD.

Yeah, so turn the M to an S like virtually every other form of magic in the game is advised to do and go.
What you would do in RT or Splicers doesn't really matter to PF at all does it. Since those are MD settings and thus sort of totally irrelevant to discussions about them in an SDC setting.
Although the Splicers comment that all magic is SDC would seem to suggest that, well, all magic is SDC. Even tattoos.

Since I was referencing page 167 of the Splicers MB under the subject of "Characters from other Palladium Games" I am wondering what page and section are you referencing?

[ShadowLogan]

It would be paradoxical for the magic tattoos to not work in settings in which magic works.

I have to disagree. We know there are magic examples that only work in PPE rich environments, two are mentioned in SA (Nazca Line Drawing, "The Ancient RCC Incan Undead" both in SA2) and another three in Japan (Living Kami Statues, TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus 'can fire as long as magic energy exists on Earth', Daisho of the Storm) are specifically mentioned being only viable in Rifts Earth directly or by implication. And Line Magic is similar to Tattoo magic (being drawn symbol based) and is even performed on individuals (Rune Warriors OCC), but is only viable in PPE rich worlds (ie MDC) at minimum in some applications at most complete.

This would have to be a GM's call, but one they could certainly make for ease of use.

Progressive NAR: this follows the idea that the T-man's protections get better over time.

Which is easily handled by the increasing SDC/HP of the T-Man and no need for a progressive NAR. In an MDC setting though the Protection only allows them to soak more damage, not ignore rolls of certain magnitudes (like AR does), which would make it a Fix NAR (if it is even modified from the baseline of 4) and having loads of SDC/HP for SDC setting. About the only thing we can really convert is the MDC to SDC/HP easily, the issue is with the NAR.

At low level a WB2 T-man class has between 100-200 SDC roughly in an SDC setting from Tattoos with an extra 10-20 per level (giving an end range of 240-480). An AR isn't really necessary with that much SDC especially if physical skills are factored in to add to it. Really it just looks like the T-man types use a specialized conversion rate that converts the magic SDC to magic MDC and nothing more.

Chang-ku: Chiang Six (reff. VUr) is not a Chan-Ku dragon, and does not have the same sort of Magic Tattoos as made by Chang-Ku, TA and Atlantis.

Per Rifts WB3 that is precisely the Dragon type Chiang Six IS. WB3pg47 "With the exception of the 20th century villan known as Chiang-Six (see Villans Unlimited), the last of the dragons perished shortly after the advent of written history.", emphasis in the book.

RCB1 NAR: Each GM sets the NAR for her or his games. Thus there is no need for a across the board "fix".

The AR aspect in general is poorly handled in the conversion process across the board since they don't given an indication on how to determine which value in a range to use for a given category given how it can lead to disagreements. IMHO a conversion rules shouldn't be done in this way.

MDC of Tattoos: The stats for magic tattoos are defined as a part of a MDC setting. Which is why there is this discussion about how to convert them for use in an SDC setting.
In every MDC setting The magic tattoos we are talking about, T-men are MDC. Even in the RT setting. (based on 2nd hand talk about the magic in the Marines book. The Splicers book does not say to convert the spells to SDC/SD.

Alternate MDC settings though aren't the issue, AFAIK it comes down to a dimensional energy matrix that makes tech AND magic create MD effects. The issue is how to convert them to an SDC setting. And the two simplest approaches really are:
-it is a magic type that doesn't work at all (which might explain why SDC world notes aren't included for them in later Rifts books)
-the magic only grants SDC/HP bonus and nothing more and don't bother with the AR aspect because they would have more SDC than typical PF characters.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I will have to agree that a GM deciding that the CK Magic Tattoos just don't work for his/her game would make things simple for the GM.

However, the Chang-Ku text (D&G) was written with an underlying stipulation that their type of magic tattoos work on the PF world.
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(to simplify thing for Tattooed men types: all male & at L1)
t-men: 70 MDC
Max-men: 130-160 MDC
Undead slayers: 140-200 MDC

If just using the +10 SDC per level on top of other SDC…
t-men: +130 SDC
Max-men: +190-220 SDC
Undead slayers: +200-260 SDC
"Per Level SDC": none
Per additional Tattoo: +10 SDC per tattoo

For comparison….
Dragon Hatchlings
MDC ranges (RCB1) from '50-90 (Bas.)' to '100-400 (fire)' to '200-500 (CK)' to '250-550 (Wooly)'
SDC+HP ranges (D&G) from '40-160 w/nar 10 (Bas.)' to '150-700 w/nar 10 (fire)' to '500-1000 w/nar 11 (CK)' to '900-5400 w/ nar 12 (Wooly)'

I will stick with the NAR 4 @ 7 tattoos +1 NAR per additional 2 tattoos vs mundane damage, in addition to the +10 SDC per tattoo. Maxing out at NAR 18.

Would I allow them into a PF game, Nope. But a HU game, Yes.
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Got out my RWB3 and read that text. That does not say that C6's tattoos are the same as RWB2 magic tattoos. The mechanics are different between C6's and RWB2's.
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The Chang-Ku text (D&G) was written as if there is an underlying understanding that their type of magic tattoos work on the PF world.

If the Magic tattoos only gain +SDC then they don't block magic after gaining the 7th tattoo ether.

The NAR is what the MDC turns into when the being is in a SDC setting. It is a matter of Orders of Magnitude.
Even with the retaining a NAR of 6-8 it sacrificing an order of magnitude that they had when they were MDC.
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It you note, that in the conversion I put up, that the NAR to be vs only mundane damage. Which does mean while it does protect vs most attacks. It does not protect vs magic, psi, and SN attacks.

[eliakon]

To be honest I would convert Tattoo's differently for different games.
That is why they are different games after all
In PF? Yeah, your just going to get more SDC and PPE. That's it, but in that world that is plenty.

In HU? I would probably disregard Chiang-6 so... you might get some nAR (or you might not) and you would probably get a lot more SDC than the standard +10. Simply because your going to be expected to be a sort of 'light tank' so you will need the durability to back it up in the genre's super brawls. Or you might not, depending on what set of tattoos you take and what role you are wanting your character to have.

[ShadowLogan]

However, the Chang-Ku text (D&G) was written with an underlying stipulation that their type of magic tattoos work on the PF world.

At the same time though, one could also take the view that it only works for them in the PF world since they don't distribute the magic. And the only people who even consider using the magic are miscreants/diabolics in a life and death situation, and even those won't distribute it. So a case might exist to say it only works for the Chiang-Ku dragons and not other races capable of using the form of magic (especially given the elapsed time involved).

If the Magic tattoos only gain +SDC then they don't block magic after gaining the 7th tattoo ether.

I don't see why that would not change that other forms of magic use get blocked starting with #7.

I will stick with the NAR 4 @ 7 tattoos +1 NAR per additional 2 tattoos vs mundane damage, in addition to the +10 SDC per tattoo.

I still think there is no precedent for treating it on a sliding scale, especially with so low of a number of tattoo requirement for each point of NAR. If anything it looks like increments of 7 Tattoos is required to alter the NAR, though I still maintain there is precedent that it is not required for the NAR of the T-man to be above 4.

If you take the 2per1point, you can theoretically get +14 points of NAR due to level advancement (Level 2-15 as you get 2Ts per level), factor in the starting Tattoo Count (which is between 10 and 20) for a T-man classes and you can end up with unprecedented amount of NAR for the setting AFAIK that can potentially "break the game". It maybe at higher levels where you run into the issues, but they still exist. At a rate of 7per1point, you get +4 NAR due to level advancement, and +1-2 for starting (and hardly game breaking).

[drewkitty ~..~]

I will stick with the NAR 4 @ 7 tattoos +1 NAR per additional 2 tattoos vs mundane damage, in addition to the +10 SDC per tattoo.

I still think there is no precedent for treating it on a sliding scale, especially with so low of a number of tattoo requirement for each point of NAR. If anything it looks like increments of 7 Tattoos is required to alter the NAR, though I still maintain there is precedent that it is not required for the NAR of the T-man to be above 4.

If you take the 2per1point, you can theoretically get +14 points of NAR due to level advancement (Level 2-15 as you get 2Ts per level), factor in the starting Tattoo Count (which is between 10 and 20) for a T-man classes and you can end up with unprecedented amount of NAR for the setting AFAIK that can potentially "break the game". It maybe at higher levels where you run into the issues, but they still exist. At a rate of 7per1point, you get +4 NAR due to level advancement, and +1-2 for starting (and hardly game breaking).

So?
T-men are suppose to be bricks/tanks, in the aspect of "I don't Need no stinking armor". It is just outside of MDC settings this is more apparent then in a MDC setting.

lets look at the numbers around Undead Hunters. they start off with 18 tattoos. -6 for the pre transformation tats.=12. 12/2=6 This makes their starting NAR 10.
Now If the UH can find a Tattoo master each level of advancement that is just +1 NAR per level. That means they would top out at my max NAR of 18 @ L8

T-men would start out at a NAR score of 7 and top out at NAR 18 at L11.

Both of which are several years of game play unless the GM is giving out EXP like candy at halloween.

I have been in a RT2 game that meets one a week. with the normal amount of Real Life skipped/missed sessions. Gaining about 200 per session my char is now only 6th level.

You can always modify this for your games.

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I am done with this discussion unless something new comes up.

[eliakon]

<snip>

I will stick with the NAR 4 @ 7 tattoos +1 NAR per additional 2 tattoos vs mundane damage, in addition to the +10 SDC per tattoo. Maxing out at NAR 18.

Okay, cool your game your house rules

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Got out my RWB3 and read that text. That does not say that C6's tattoos are the same as RWB2 magic tattoos. The mechanics are different between C6's and RWB2's.
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I don't see how that matters. They are Chaing-Ku magic tattoos. Simply because they are not normal tattoos doesn't mean anything. Monster Shaping Tattoos were not believed to be possible or 'normal'...until done
Simply because they are a different kind of Tattoo doesn't mean that he has a brand new entirely new form of magic never seen before... Occams razor would suggest that the simplest solution is that they are the regular tattoos that all Chaing-Ku have and he just has really weird ones.

<snip>

If the Magic tattoos only gain +SDC then they don't block magic after gaining the 7th tattoo ether.

I am curious. Is this another house rule, or is there some sort of book support for this claim?

The NAR is what the MDC turns into when the being is in a SDC setting. It is a matter of Orders of Magnitude.
Even with the retaining a NAR of 6-8 it sacrificing an order of magnitude that they had when they were MDC.

Again is this just a house rule on how you prefer to view MDC, or is there an actual statement in a book making such a claim?

It you note, that in the conversion I put up, that the NAR to be vs only mundane damage. Which does mean while it does protect vs most attacks. It does not protect vs magic, psi, and SN attacks.

So...its not really nAR but yet another form of protection that is almost like nAR but not quite....
Which means that the entire discussion here has been pointless since you have not even been talking about the same thing as everyone else since we have been talking about nAR(Canon) and you have been talking about nAR(something else that I am just calling the same name even though it is not)

[drewkitty ~..~]

The NAR is what the MDC turns into when the being is in a SDC setting. It is a matter of Orders of Magnitude.
Even with the retaining a NAR of 6-8 it sacrificing an order of magnitude that they had when they were MDC.

Again is this just a house rule on how you prefer to view MDC, or is there an actual statement in a book making such a claim?

Everyone knows it is a house rule because that is a part of the stipulated aspect of this topic. So you are being a troll rubbing peoples noses in something that is openly acknowledged. So would you stop Attacking me Personally, by using it to smear my ideas as if they were not as good as anyone else's. All I see you doing is trying to prolong the debate even though it has already run it's course. I am not going to repeat myself over and over again just because you want prolong the debate so you can drive me into telling you off in swear words, again.

[eliakon]

The NAR is what the MDC turns into when the being is in a SDC setting. It is a matter of Orders of Magnitude.
Even with the retaining a NAR of 6-8 it sacrificing an order of magnitude that they had when they were MDC.

Again is this just a house rule on how you prefer to view MDC, or is there an actual statement in a book making such a claim?

Everyone knows it is a house rule because that is a part of the stipulated aspect of this topic. So you are being a troll rubbing peoples noses in something that is openly acknowledged. So would you stop Attacking me Personally, by using it to smear my ideas as if they were not as good as anyone else's. All I see you doing is trying to prolong the debate even though it has already run it's course. I am not going to repeat myself over and over again just because you want prolong the debate so you can drive me into telling you off in swear words, again.

I was trying to ask some questions
If you don't want to answer them. Then don't.
But don't insult people by trying to insinuate that they are trolls trying to 'rub your nose in stuff'
If you don't want to answer. Don't answer. But don't come back with some backhand insults and pretend your a victim


Its really hard to tell when you post things if what you are saying is actually house rules or canon since you claim that canon and house rules should be labeled clearly and separately... but rarely do so yourself. Thus when you make claims it is kind of hard to know which ones are house rules, and which ones are actually based on something in a book that the rest of us should be aware of.
Thus we sort of have to ask about it if we want to know.
I was asking questions based on statements that you made that were presented as "here is X" I did not know if X was canon or house rule...so I was asking.
The only way to find out if there is some sort of canon statement someplace that I don't know about on letting someone with 7 tattoos keep their magic is ask. Since you made a claim that just getting SDC and not nAR would do so. I can't tell if that is actual canon or a house rule. So I ask.

If you find asking if something is a house rule or canon to be insulting and trolling...then perhaps you should change your sig line.