Page 141 (Summoning Circles - How Summoning Circles Work - The Battle of Wills) has 2 paragraphs with sentences that do not appear to be consistent with each other, so I am not sure which to go with.
Paragraph 2 opens with the bold "If the creature does not become subservient" and says 2 things:
*30% chance of a strong-willed creature resist being sent back and remaining (sentence 3)
*creature is magically bound to promises, can't break word (end note)
Paragraph 3 mentions:
*no magical restraint or obligation to live up to its part of the deal (2nd last sentence)
Paragraph 4 mentions:
*those who win the battle of wills can stay indefinitely (first sentence)
So it seems like P4 contradicts the first bullet of P2, and P3 contradicts the second bullet of P2.
At first I thought that the P2B2 note could only be about promises made in exchange for returning to where they came from if they failed the battle of wills and failed the 30%. Maybe any other promises they make which are not related to agreement-to-return are non-binding.
Page 144 ties into this, under "Releasing circle slaves without danger of attack" 4th paragraph opening with italicized "The absolute safest".
It notes that initial promises are binding. This supports P2B3 so P3 you would figure would be about promises made non-initially.
But what is the time limit here? What condition (time? space?) happens to change promises from binding to non-binding? Is it after the Summoner leaves the confines of the circle? Creatures are never actually in the circle (they appear in the open part) so it can't be that.
The 2nd paragraph of "Releasing circle slaves" opening with "To safely send" also seems like a 3rd-best rather than 2nd-best solution.
Rather than "return and be free" why not just say "return THEN be free" ? It mentions 70% return which seems like the opposite half of the 30% of strong-willed creatures resisting being sent back. The numbers though they add up are introduced in different contexts though. The 30% is of those who win the battle of wills, the 70% is of those who lost it and are freed from it.
Also with most demons/deevils having dimensional teleport, why would you ever want to summon them unless you planned to get them killed off? Those who free themselves could come back after you at any time. Even if you do treat them well and they like the jobs you give them, I think they'd still hate being enslaved. It seems like the only save things to summon would be Gurgoyles/Gargoyles/Gargoylites (Mages/Lords have dimensional teleport) or the lesser deevils of Dire Harpies and Imps. Dimension Book 11 also gave dimensional teleport to Imps so they may no longer be viable.
The only thing I can see preventing revenge is you having other slaves on hand to defend you and a big secure fortress, a travelling summoner without these things just wouldn't be safe from these creatures, particularly the shapeshifters or ones who can turn invisible.
Also do you think it would be possible to summon the Deevil Host or War Steeds or Monsters of Dyval from Dimension Book 11? I mean:
*Cryxon
*Dyval Stalkers
*Harpies
*Shock Dragons
*Flying Horrors
*Infernal Sprites
*Infernal Tri-Tops
*Infernal Lava Serpent
*Mimic
*Shock Beasts
*Tiger Beasts
*Devil Worms
*Fire Scorpions
*Ice Worm
A lot of these seem safer summons due to a lack of intelligence (can't plot complex revenges if they break free) and lack of dimensional teleport ability (except for Shock Beast)
The "Summon Gargoyle & Sub-Demon" Circle is what I had in mind. It and Summoner Serpents both include Worms of Taut. Would that include the Devil Worm or Ice Worm since they are modified Taut Worms?
Dyval Hell Unleashed page 33 says the Host of Hell "fill the role held by Sub-Demons in Hades" but filling the role doesn't necessarily mean the circle will fork on them.
Do you think this may necessitate the creation of entirely new type of circles like "Summon Dyval Host" + "Summon Dyval War Steed" + "Summon Dyval Monster" ?
The Shifter OCC from Rifts could probably summon all these things so it seems unfair that Summoners wouldn't also have a way to do it.
I guess without creating new circles or including the Host/Steeds/Monsters underneath an existing circle the "Summon Pawn" circle is an option. That requires hair (which some don't have), true name (not sure if monsters/steeds would even have a name) or fresh blood (hard to keep fresh, probably expensive to trade for) so it would make it a huge hassle, and seem easier to just summon sub-demons to do your bidding instead.
Limits on the Summoned
Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones
Re: Limits on the Summoned
So many questions in one post makes my head want to explode!
Ok, all those creatures you listed could possibly be summoned either by using a current summoning circle (mostly summon Demon or Serpents would qualify) or by modifying and creating a new specific circle to summon one. Obviously, the Summoner would have to have knowledge about the creature he was trying to summon first to make something specific.
In regard to time limits - Summoners can control a summoned creature for as long as they can continue to win the battle of wills (theoretically forever ). I think there is something about a creature loosing 3 battles of wills in a row no longer fighting against the Summoner as well (as long as you don't **** it off or make it do something against its nature).
In regard to releasing control of a summoned creature the Summoner has already won the battle of wills against. This is where things get iffy. Usually if the summoner comes to some agreement or words his command correctly he does have anything to worry about setting a demon/devil free. "Return THEN be free" is a good example. However, even this combination of words can be bent an may not work against ever summoned being. Especially against smart and clever infernal. "Return" where? Back to where I stood two minutes ago "ok" - would be a good example of a how such a creature could twist a Summoners words.
Also creatures with the ability to dimensionally teleport nothing is stopping them from return for vengeance against the Summoner once they are free. They just "Pop" home and "Pop" back at a later time and hunt the Summoner down.
That is why it is always wise for a Summoner to have backup protection circles to retreat into as long as powerful allies or other summoned beings to help defend against vengeful slaves. That is also why many Summoners will make pacts or agreements with their summons even if they won the battle of wills. So that those beings leave agreeably.
Ok, all those creatures you listed could possibly be summoned either by using a current summoning circle (mostly summon Demon or Serpents would qualify) or by modifying and creating a new specific circle to summon one. Obviously, the Summoner would have to have knowledge about the creature he was trying to summon first to make something specific.
In regard to time limits - Summoners can control a summoned creature for as long as they can continue to win the battle of wills (theoretically forever ). I think there is something about a creature loosing 3 battles of wills in a row no longer fighting against the Summoner as well (as long as you don't **** it off or make it do something against its nature).
In regard to releasing control of a summoned creature the Summoner has already won the battle of wills against. This is where things get iffy. Usually if the summoner comes to some agreement or words his command correctly he does have anything to worry about setting a demon/devil free. "Return THEN be free" is a good example. However, even this combination of words can be bent an may not work against ever summoned being. Especially against smart and clever infernal. "Return" where? Back to where I stood two minutes ago "ok" - would be a good example of a how such a creature could twist a Summoners words.
Also creatures with the ability to dimensionally teleport nothing is stopping them from return for vengeance against the Summoner once they are free. They just "Pop" home and "Pop" back at a later time and hunt the Summoner down.
That is why it is always wise for a Summoner to have backup protection circles to retreat into as long as powerful allies or other summoned beings to help defend against vengeful slaves. That is also why many Summoners will make pacts or agreements with their summons even if they won the battle of wills. So that those beings leave agreeably.
Re: Limits on the Summoned
Personally when I played a Summoner. I would rarely summon demons and devils and normally stick to either less intelligent and less vengeful beings. Also instead of just releasing my Summoners demonic slaves I would normally dispatch of them by killing them off prior to releasing them, instead of just releasing them and hoping for the best. That is were having good allies comes in handy. Another Summoner or Diabolist friend can be handy in helping deal with this types of problems.
-
The Dark Elf
- Rifter® Contributer
- Posts: 3074
- Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:04 am
- Comment: "So gentlemen, are you prepared to open your minds and travel to worlds hitherto undreamed of?"
- Location: UK
Re: Limits on the Summoned
A lot of info to take in all in one go but I'll try to answer how I play it (the Dark Elf is a summoner - and wizard and diabolist).
When summoned I make the battle of wills (as a silent mind control). However you must still speak the commands you wish such as "dont kill me or my comrades" (ooops I forgot to say harm so some of us get tortured a bit).
Once I summoned a dragon (well chuffed) only for the extremely intelligent creature to get an initiative on me and cast globe of daylight (so he couldnt hear my commands) took me a melee round of taking hits before I mange to show him a scrawled sign saying "stop attacking me" (little **** dragon - which I killed less than an hour later cos he tricked me again).
One the best phrases for intelligent creatures is to "do your best to help with what you truly believe my spoken desire to be and honestly is in my best interest." That way if they honestly think they are conning you or tricky you, they cant do it - although a clever GM will find some loop hole in it, lol.
But if you are summoning a demon/devil you have to barter with it and make a pact. When you win the battle of wills (hopefully) it will follow your commands but as you say it will seek revenge etc. So tell it you want a fortnights service, or to undertake a theft, or assassination, or pose as etc. etc and in exchange ask it want it wants in return. Most will answer in pounds of flesh (cut of a hand or eye etc.) or true name (ouch) or to murder a colleague (other players, lol)...
Summoners can be LOADS of fun to roleplay and PFRPG summoners are soooo not a typical pet class (thats why theyre fun).
Animals, Elementals (very powerful) are simpler traveling companions choices.
If I missed anything, ask again.
When summoned I make the battle of wills (as a silent mind control). However you must still speak the commands you wish such as "dont kill me or my comrades" (ooops I forgot to say harm so some of us get tortured a bit).
Once I summoned a dragon (well chuffed) only for the extremely intelligent creature to get an initiative on me and cast globe of daylight (so he couldnt hear my commands) took me a melee round of taking hits before I mange to show him a scrawled sign saying "stop attacking me" (little **** dragon - which I killed less than an hour later cos he tricked me again).
One the best phrases for intelligent creatures is to "do your best to help with what you truly believe my spoken desire to be and honestly is in my best interest." That way if they honestly think they are conning you or tricky you, they cant do it - although a clever GM will find some loop hole in it, lol.
But if you are summoning a demon/devil you have to barter with it and make a pact. When you win the battle of wills (hopefully) it will follow your commands but as you say it will seek revenge etc. So tell it you want a fortnights service, or to undertake a theft, or assassination, or pose as etc. etc and in exchange ask it want it wants in return. Most will answer in pounds of flesh (cut of a hand or eye etc.) or true name (ouch) or to murder a colleague (other players, lol)...
Summoners can be LOADS of fun to roleplay and PFRPG summoners are soooo not a typical pet class (thats why theyre fun).
Animals, Elementals (very powerful) are simpler traveling companions choices.
If I missed anything, ask again.
Re: Limits on the Summoned
Elementals are probably the best thing to summon. They don't twist your words around, they are very powerful and only issue with them is that you Summoner has to micromanage their actions to keep them from causing collateral damage when collateral damage is unwanted.
Animals are perfect summoning creatures that are not a treat to the summoner. Angels are good if you have a noble cause and are fighting against supernatural evil. Faeries are surprising powerful and can be extremely useful as well, but they can cause a lot of problems for a summoner.
Animals are perfect summoning creatures that are not a treat to the summoner. Angels are good if you have a noble cause and are fighting against supernatural evil. Faeries are surprising powerful and can be extremely useful as well, but they can cause a lot of problems for a summoner.
Re: Limits on the Summoned
(I hate giving away a lot of my learned tricks but I feel obligated to help my fellow Summoners)
Here is a list of useful strategies to get the most out of your Summoner character.
1. Almost all Circles Can be "Sealed". Always seal your circles whenever it isn't necessary not to. It creates a magical barrier that prevents unwanted people from entering into your circles. True Names and Symbology is important!
2. Creating and activating a circle only costs the PPE, components and sacrifice the first time. The Summoner can activate a circle and use it again with only the cost of only 5 PPE!!
3. Protection Circles are you friends. Use them. Even if the specific enemy aligned to the circle isn't the threat if you followed suggestion #1 and sealed your circle it will still be useful. Always have a backup circle for any supernatural summoned being you plan to call upon. Protection Circles components and cost are much lower than other circles, thus a poor or PPE depleted summoner will find them perfect.
4. If you don't remember any other circle remember this circle for protection. "Protection from Magic (simple)" It can be drawn in any substance and only cost 50 PPE.
5. Drawing P.P.E. from other living beings. You can get it from the willing, the unwilling without magic and from the dead (sacrifice) animal and intelligent beings. Also remember places of magic are a Summoners Gold Mine!
6. Summon Animal is a great circle to use to acquire more sacrificial components. You just need the blood of the animal desired and a sacrifice of ANY animal.
7. Summoning an elemental will only require the sacrifice of an "Fruit"!? Only the gems are expensive for this circle. Allowing you to conjure the most powerful forces in the books just under the capabilities of the Gods.
8. Faerie Folk are great! The also count as Lessor Beings so a 2nd level Summoner can call upon them. To include Spriggans, Frost Pixies and (The All Power!) Nymph. These are some of the more insanely powerful faeries you can control. (BTW - Faeries have enormous amounts of PPE and they don't burn PPE using their magic, Suggestion #5 comes into play here.)
9. Lastly, when other magic users work together than can become force to behold. When a summoner teams up with another like minded Wizard, Necromancer, Diabolist or Summoner that is when the real fun begins with the synergy between the classes.
Here is a list of useful strategies to get the most out of your Summoner character.
1. Almost all Circles Can be "Sealed". Always seal your circles whenever it isn't necessary not to. It creates a magical barrier that prevents unwanted people from entering into your circles. True Names and Symbology is important!
2. Creating and activating a circle only costs the PPE, components and sacrifice the first time. The Summoner can activate a circle and use it again with only the cost of only 5 PPE!!
3. Protection Circles are you friends. Use them. Even if the specific enemy aligned to the circle isn't the threat if you followed suggestion #1 and sealed your circle it will still be useful. Always have a backup circle for any supernatural summoned being you plan to call upon. Protection Circles components and cost are much lower than other circles, thus a poor or PPE depleted summoner will find them perfect.
4. If you don't remember any other circle remember this circle for protection. "Protection from Magic (simple)" It can be drawn in any substance and only cost 50 PPE.
5. Drawing P.P.E. from other living beings. You can get it from the willing, the unwilling without magic and from the dead (sacrifice) animal and intelligent beings. Also remember places of magic are a Summoners Gold Mine!
6. Summon Animal is a great circle to use to acquire more sacrificial components. You just need the blood of the animal desired and a sacrifice of ANY animal.
7. Summoning an elemental will only require the sacrifice of an "Fruit"!? Only the gems are expensive for this circle. Allowing you to conjure the most powerful forces in the books just under the capabilities of the Gods.
8. Faerie Folk are great! The also count as Lessor Beings so a 2nd level Summoner can call upon them. To include Spriggans, Frost Pixies and (The All Power!) Nymph. These are some of the more insanely powerful faeries you can control. (BTW - Faeries have enormous amounts of PPE and they don't burn PPE using their magic, Suggestion #5 comes into play here.)
9. Lastly, when other magic users work together than can become force to behold. When a summoner teams up with another like minded Wizard, Necromancer, Diabolist or Summoner that is when the real fun begins with the synergy between the classes.
Re: Limits on the Summoned
The Dark Elf wrote:When summoned I make the battle of wills (as a silent mind control). However you must still speak the commands you wish such as "dont kill me or my comrades" (ooops I forgot to say harm so some of us get tortured a bit).
I can see it torturing your comrades when it's not busy but the "cannot personally raise their hand against" would seem to protect you...
Although if you read it spiritually rather than literally I guess it doesn't prevent them hitting you with their wing or tail... or fire breath.
The Dark Elf wrote:Once I summoned a dragon (well chuffed) only for the extremely intelligent creature to get an initiative on me and cast globe of daylight (so he couldnt hear my commands) took me a melee round of taking hits before I mange to show him a scrawled sign saying "stop attacking me" (little **** dragon - which I killed less than an hour later cos he tricked me again).
Globe of silence?
How did it manage to hit you? Weren't you in the protective portion of the circle? Did it make a save and then push into your portion and take some damage to attack you?
Were you using speed-casting rules or something? Normally even if you lost initiative it's still quicker to say "stop!" than to spend 2+ actions casting a spell.
The Dark Elf wrote:One the best phrases for intelligent creatures is to "do your best to help with what you truly believe my spoken desire to be and honestly is in my best interest." That way if they honestly think they are conning you or tricky you, they cant do it - although a clever GM will find some loop hole in it, lol.
Loopholes like them just having very alien thinking.
For example "spoken desire", if you say "defeat the enemy!" and a demon thinks you really hate them, it might "defeat" them in a far more gruesome way than you would have opted for.
"In my best interest", it may have a very different idea of what is 'best' for you. For example if you say "protect us!" to a demon...
It may eventually plan to break free and torture you, or it may think a Greater Demon will track it down and then torture you and destroy your soul as punishment for enslaving one of its minions...
To spare you that grisly fate, it would actually be protecting your mortal soul, and your minds from pain and suffering, for the demon to simply quickly murder you to spare you those torments.
That's why it's probably best to be super-literal like "jump in the way of this fireball" or "prevent these guys from stabbing us". Something as vague as "protect" opens the door to a lot of meta-moralism that can let an evil minion have way too much room for interpretation.
-
The Dark Elf
- Rifter® Contributer
- Posts: 3074
- Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:04 am
- Comment: "So gentlemen, are you prepared to open your minds and travel to worlds hitherto undreamed of?"
- Location: UK
Re: Limits on the Summoned
Axelmania wrote:I can see it torturing your comrades when it's not busy but the "cannot personally raise their hand against" would seem to protect you...
Although if you read it spiritually rather than literally I guess it doesn't prevent them hitting you with their wing or tail... or fire breath.
Right. Literal.
Axelmania wrote:Globe of silence?
How did it manage to hit you? Weren't you in the protective portion of the circle? Did it make a save and then push into your portion and take some damage to attack you?
Were you using speed-casting rules or something? Normally even if you lost initiative it's still quicker to say "stop!" than to spend 2+ actions casting a spell.
GoD took one action - the first. The sealed part of the summoning circle works like a protection circle. they cant enter but your not immune to magic or psionics, just bonused up.
Axelmania wrote:Loopholes like them just having very alien thinking.
For example "spoken desire", if you say "defeat the enemy!" and a demon thinks you really hate them, it might "defeat" them in a far more gruesome way than you would have opted for.
"In my best interest", it may have a very different idea of what is 'best' for you. For example if you say "protect us!" to a demon...
It may eventually plan to break free and torture you, or it may think a Greater Demon will track it down and then torture you and destroy your soul as punishment for enslaving one of its minions...
To spare you that grisly fate, it would actually be protecting your mortal soul, and your minds from pain and suffering, for the demon to simply quickly murder you to spare you those torments.
That's why it's probably best to be super-literal like "jump in the way of this fireball" or "prevent these guys from stabbing us". Something as vague as "protect" opens the door to a lot of meta-moralism that can let an evil minion have way too much room for interpretation.
Right- great roleplaying, or indeed defeat in a less permanent manner such as a knockout for a minute...
But literal will get you killed and is easier for the GM to spot. Stabbing, mentioned above but nothing else - slashing ok? Punching, kicking, blunt beating etc?
Jump in the way of this fireball - great so he does (if you have the time to spot the fireball, shout the command, the servant realises, then reacts). Now hes in the way hes just enough time to jump out of the way again. Still did as you asked...
Make the deal. Negotiate. Give the demon a reason to serve your purpose.
-
eliakon
- Palladin
- Posts: 9093
- Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
- Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
- Contact:
Re: Limits on the Summoned
My advice here.
The setting is such that Summoning Demons is a bad idea. In the Palladium setting summoned demons ends badly, and is Not A Good Plan.
This suggests that in the 50,000 years of the setting the millions of people who have been able to summon these things, some of whom have literally god like intelligences, have not figured out a safe way to word the commands to avoid problems.
THAT tells me that your party isn't going to solve the problem either. If your group is willing to summon demons and have some minor problems occur then fine. If they want to get cute and start trying to be Those Guys(1), then their going to end up being Those Guys(2).....
(1) the legendary person who solves the unsolved mystery of magic that no one else has ever solved or noticed allowing them unlimited power and omnipotence.
(2) a legendary watchword of warning, usually whispered in tales about over reaching egos, pride and the prices thereof
The setting is such that Summoning Demons is a bad idea. In the Palladium setting summoned demons ends badly, and is Not A Good Plan.
This suggests that in the 50,000 years of the setting the millions of people who have been able to summon these things, some of whom have literally god like intelligences, have not figured out a safe way to word the commands to avoid problems.
THAT tells me that your party isn't going to solve the problem either. If your group is willing to summon demons and have some minor problems occur then fine. If they want to get cute and start trying to be Those Guys(1), then their going to end up being Those Guys(2).....
(1) the legendary person who solves the unsolved mystery of magic that no one else has ever solved or noticed allowing them unlimited power and omnipotence.
(2) a legendary watchword of warning, usually whispered in tales about over reaching egos, pride and the prices thereof
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.
Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Re: Limits on the Summoned
The Dark Elf wrote:GoD took one action - the first. The sealed part of the summoning circle works like a protection circle. they cant enter but your not immune to magic or psionics, just bonused up.
Yeah but GoD/Globe of Daylight wouldn't prevent it from hearing you, which is why I was asking if you meant Globe of Silence, which is a 7th level spell.
Even if you're using the 'Fast Spell Casting' import of Rifts Ultimate Edition rules mentioned in Mysteries of Magic 1 Heart of Magic page 55, level 6-10 stuff still takes 2 melee attacks.
Did the dragon stack this with the 'Rapid Fire Spell Casting" rules on page 54 to cast it in a single action?
Also since your sign said 'stop attacking me' and you mentioned 'taking hits' I was asking if it was entering the protected portion, unless it was hitting you with ranged attacks like fire breath which wouldn't require making a savings throw.
The Dark Elf wrote:Jump in the way of this fireball - great so he does (if you have the time to spot the fireball, shout the command, the servant realises, then reacts). Now hes in the way hes just enough time to jump out of the way again. Still did as you asked...
This is fun, of course if you can survive the fireball you might think "block this fireball" as a better command in the future since that would mandate staying put.
-
The Dark Elf
- Rifter® Contributer
- Posts: 3074
- Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 8:04 am
- Comment: "So gentlemen, are you prepared to open your minds and travel to worlds hitherto undreamed of?"
- Location: UK
Re: Limits on the Summoned
Axelmania wrote:The Dark Elf wrote:GoD took one action - the first. The sealed part of the summoning circle works like a protection circle. they cant enter but your not immune to magic or psionics, just bonused up.
Yeah but GoD/Globe of Daylight wouldn't prevent it from hearing you, which is why I was asking if you meant Globe of Silence, which is a 7th level spell.
Even if you're using the 'Fast Spell Casting' import of Rifts Ultimate Edition rules mentioned in Mysteries of Magic 1 Heart of Magic page 55, level 6-10 stuff still takes 2 melee attacks.
Did the dragon stack this with the 'Rapid Fire Spell Casting" rules on page 54 to cast it in a single action?
Also since your sign said 'stop attacking me' and you mentioned 'taking hits' I was asking if it was entering the protected portion, unless it was hitting you with ranged attacks like fire breath which wouldn't require making a savings throw.The Dark Elf wrote:Jump in the way of this fireball - great so he does (if you have the time to spot the fireball, shout the command, the servant realises, then reacts). Now hes in the way hes just enough time to jump out of the way again. Still did as you asked...
This is fun, of course if you can survive the fireball you might think "block this fireball" as a better command in the future since that would mandate staying put.
Yeah globe of silence. And it was first edition. Seems you know enough about role playing to play or GM and PFRPG summoner, mate. GL.
Re: Limits on the Summoned
Ah you're right... and globe of silence was 1st level back then... but then I think you could even cast level 11 spells in 1 attack back then.
Unless this was a Kukulkan you must've 'summon pawn' to get this guy, how did you learn its name? Curious about the species and whether its spellcasting was natural or learned.
Unless this was a Kukulkan you must've 'summon pawn' to get this guy, how did you learn its name? Curious about the species and whether its spellcasting was natural or learned.
Re: Limits on the Summoned
1st ed spellcasters could cast any 2 spells per round when they hit level 5 I think.
-
Starmage21
- Adventurer
- Posts: 420
- Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:58 pm
- Location: Houston, Texas
- Contact:
Re: Limits on the Summoned
There is a level of danger involved in summoning things, I agree.
Some of the stuff i'm reading in here pretty much reeks of legalese and discards the entire concept that my character might have greater or lesser intelligence than me the player, and might speak slightly different, better worded commands. IE the stuff that would make playing anything summoner-like not fun and a complete waste of time.
Some of the stuff i'm reading in here pretty much reeks of legalese and discards the entire concept that my character might have greater or lesser intelligence than me the player, and might speak slightly different, better worded commands. IE the stuff that would make playing anything summoner-like not fun and a complete waste of time.
Re: Limits on the Summoned
Starmage21 wrote:There is a level of danger involved in summoning things, I agree.
Some of the stuff i'm reading in here pretty much reeks of legalese and discards the entire concept that my character might have greater or lesser intelligence than me the player, and might speak slightly different, better worded commands. IE the stuff that would make playing anything summoner-like not fun and a complete waste of time.
Summoners are evil and are usually best as enemy npc's, however one of my players could draw fairly well so id get him to draw the things he was making as his diabolist and it was great fun, and while he wasn't awesome on the offence he did save the party a few times when they were attacked, and did a great job of protecting a tavern.
-
Starmage21
- Adventurer
- Posts: 420
- Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:58 pm
- Location: Houston, Texas
- Contact:
Re: Limits on the Summoned
kiralon wrote:Starmage21 wrote:There is a level of danger involved in summoning things, I agree.
Some of the stuff i'm reading in here pretty much reeks of legalese and discards the entire concept that my character might have greater or lesser intelligence than me the player, and might speak slightly different, better worded commands. IE the stuff that would make playing anything summoner-like not fun and a complete waste of time.
Summoners are evil and are usually best as enemy npc's, however one of my players could draw fairly well so id get him to draw the things he was making as his diabolist and it was great fun, and while he wasn't awesome on the offence he did save the party a few times when they were attacked, and did a great job of protecting a tavern.
I disagree. A good summoner with a focus on protection and power-circles could still be quite fearsome. They could even use summoning circles to bargain for allies instead of summoning and enslaving minions. Also the Summon Elemental Forces circle is rather nasty and doesnt actually summon something, so aside from callously killing a hawk, its not really evil.
Classes recommended solely for NPCs usually have a header on them that states such, like the Alchemist and the Lizard Mage. The Summoner falls in the standard class list with all the other men of magic.
Re: Limits on the Summoned
You are correct about a good summoner, they are theoretically possibly but it does limit their power, and i'm yet to see a summoner that doesn't summon demons/devils in either the books or as a player.