Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

1st edition? 2nd edition? It doesnt matter! Let's just talk Palladium Fantasy.

Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones

User avatar
Lukterran
Adventurer
Posts: 642
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:01 am
Location: The Kingdom of Farr

Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by Lukterran »

If a player or NPC has supernatural strength, yet the are only human sized, could they use a giant sized weapon or would their hands be too small to grip it?

If so....why and what kind of weapons would be practical and do you think it would still do the additional 1D6 of damage?
User avatar
say652
Palladin
Posts: 6609
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:32 am
Comment: Avid Cyborg and Braka Braka enthusiast.
Location: 'Murica

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by say652 »

Yes, i'm all about supporting this.
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by eliakon »

As written no...you need to be giant sized to use them. Leverage and balance would be issues.
Considering the already probably large damage you will be doing it would really be a campaign question of if the extra d6 would be a good idea, needless damage inflation, detrimental or some other result.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
drewkitty ~..~
Monk
Posts: 17737
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Eastvale, calif
Contact:

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

eliakon wrote:As written no...you need to be giant sized to use them. Leverage and balance would be issues.
Considering the already probably large damage you will be doing it would really be a campaign question of if the extra d6 would be a good idea, needless damage inflation, detrimental or some other result.

2nd'ed
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
User avatar
Lukterran
Adventurer
Posts: 642
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:01 am
Location: The Kingdom of Farr

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by Lukterran »

Ok lets talk about balance and leverage.

How much weight does a for example giant sized Claymore weight and how long is it really? We know how the lengths and weights of normal sized weapons. What are the weights of giant sized 50% or 100% greater?
User avatar
ShadowLogan
Palladin
Posts: 7401
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Location: WI

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Lukterran wrote:Ok lets talk about balance and leverage.

How much weight does a for example giant sized Claymore weight and how long is it really? We know how the lengths and weights of normal sized weapons. What are the weights of giant sized 50% or 100% greater?

According to Palladium Fantasy 2E Main RPG pg308 under Other Notes (for Trolls) it would be between x3 and x5 more than the equivalent for a human size character, this is for Troll and giant weapons.

The end weight probably comes down to intended giant (some are smaller than others), plus the craftsmanship, how durable they are being made, etc.

The length/size is probably proportional I would think, but doubling the size does not equate to doubling the mass.

eliakon wrote:As written no...you need to be giant sized to use them. Leverage and balance would be issues.
Considering the already probably large damage you will be doing it would really be a campaign question of if the extra d6 would be a good idea, needless damage inflation, detrimental or some other result.

I have to disagree here, you do not necessarily need to be giant size to use a giant size weapon in general, though circumstances like leverage and balance are factors that can limit what you could use and how you can use it (in Robotech/Macross Rick Hunter operates a Zentreadi giant's assault rifle, and Zentreadi giants are bigger than Palladium Giants by a factor of at least x2 IINM).

Examples:
-you could operate a giant-size crossbow, but will need assistance or circumstances to use it effectively as it is not likely to be easily mobile (making it more of a defensive weapon).
-giant size bow, not as is, but with the proper setup to secure it I could see it used, but I have to emphasize setup is required
.you could also likely use a giant-size dagger/knife as a human-sized sword (though due to heft I would require both hands unless exceptionally strong)
-giant sized short swords might also be viable as a two-handed weapon
-axes depending on their relative sizes are likely as the dagger/knife or short sword
-giant sized polearms/spears (and some blunt weapons) likely can also be used as a "team" weapon like a battering ram
User avatar
say652
Palladin
Posts: 6609
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:32 am
Comment: Avid Cyborg and Braka Braka enthusiast.
Location: 'Murica

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by say652 »

If you can fly and have supernatural strength, using giantsize weapons should be allowed.
User avatar
Veknironth
Hero
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Bowie, MD USA
Contact:

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, I would not allow a human sized creature to use a giant sized weapon effectively. There is the problem of grip, and there is also the awkwardness. If the human's hand can't fit around the haft or whatever, then that human isn't going to be able to use the weapon. It would fly out of the hand when used. You could easily pick up a large Styrofoam cylinder, but if it's circumference is too large, you can't grab it and hold it.

The other concern is the size. Even if you are strong enough to swing a long bamboo staff one handed, it's really awkward to use. Sure, it might even be lighter than a short sword, but it isn't as easily wielded. If the PC can pick it up, any object can be used as a third class lever. I'd apply stiff minuses to strike and parry.

ShadowLogan addressed the distance weapons well.

There are already damage bonuses for high strength so using a regular sized weapon with Supernatural Strength is going to make a difference there. However, if the PC is intent on min/maxing the hell out of this character, I think a blunt weapon is the way to go. You can make a hammer/mace/bludgeon to be roughly of a similar size but much heavier. The character is applying such brute force that he or she is overcoming the mechanical disadvantage swinging the weighted end so it shouldn't be a problem. As long as the shaft is strong enough to support the bludgeoning part, it should work.

-Vek
"Circumference reference on Pi day!"
User avatar
Library Ogre
Palladium Books® Freelance Writer
Posts: 9801
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 1:01 am
Comment: My comments do not necessarily represent the views of Palladium Books.
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I would allow it, but I might provide penalties. A giant sized weapon might give a penalty to strike, require multiple actions to weild, or give penalties to dodge. I wouldn't allow it to parry.

It would, of course, somewhat depend on the nature of the weapon. A giant-sized rifle (or crossbow, to keep it PF) is going to have lower penalties than a giant-sized claymore... one is point and click, the other is "Swing a weight larger than yourself in an arc."
-overproduced by Martin Hannett

When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Happiness is a long block list.
If you don't want to be vilified, don't act like a villain.
The Megaverse runs on vibes.
All Palladium Articles
Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
User avatar
ShadowLogan
Palladin
Posts: 7401
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Location: WI

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

I agree that the giant-size weapons in normal sized hands would likely result in penalties due to weight and such (Rifts has human size weapons that impose penalties w/o sufficient PS for similar reason), though I can also see needing specialized weapon proficiencies to use some of these awkward items.
User avatar
Library Ogre
Palladium Books® Freelance Writer
Posts: 9801
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 1:01 am
Comment: My comments do not necessarily represent the views of Palladium Books.
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by Library Ogre »

ShadowLogan wrote:I agree that the giant-size weapons in normal sized hands would likely result in penalties due to weight and such (Rifts has human size weapons that impose penalties w/o sufficient PS for similar reason), though I can also see needing specialized weapon proficiencies to use some of these awkward items.


Weapon proficiencies are a separate question; the default in Palladium is that anyone can use anything. Want to use a flashnwraslfb? Go right ahead. You may even get PP and PS bonuses, provided flashnwraslfb are eligible for those. But it doesn't mean that flashnwraslfb won't impose penalties on you, either because of awkward (for you) design or other problems.
-overproduced by Martin Hannett

When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Happiness is a long block list.
If you don't want to be vilified, don't act like a villain.
The Megaverse runs on vibes.
All Palladium Articles
Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
User avatar
Veknironth
Hero
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Bowie, MD USA
Contact:

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, Mark brought up something I meant to bring up in my last post. If you're swinging something with more mass than you, that's not going to work unless you release it as a distance weapon. Otherwise, it'll take you along with it.

-Vek
"Unless you're affixed to something more massive, somehow."
User avatar
say652
Palladin
Posts: 6609
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:32 am
Comment: Avid Cyborg and Braka Braka enthusiast.
Location: 'Murica

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by say652 »

By that logic if a Supernatural strong character went to lift a Heavy object they'd first sink up to their waste in the ground before lifting it.
User avatar
kiralon
Champion
Posts: 2800
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:05 pm
Comment: Kill it with Fire.

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by kiralon »

say652 wrote:By that logic if a Supernatural strong character went to lift a Heavy object they'd first sink up to their waste in the ground before lifting it.

Supernatural strength has to impart supernatural toughness as well, otherwise when you punch that guy in full plate your arm would shatter, or your muscles would break your legs when you pickup that 1000 lb rock, or you just shred the tendons in your hand when you angrily clench your fist, so yes, if the ground isn't hard enough to support your weight you would sink because your legs are tough enough to take it.
User avatar
say652
Palladin
Posts: 6609
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:32 am
Comment: Avid Cyborg and Braka Braka enthusiast.
Location: 'Murica

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by say652 »

So I can pick a few tons,punch through a castle but can't use a Nine foot longsword??

Lol. Makes no sense.
User avatar
Prysus
Champion
Posts: 2593
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 7:48 pm
Location: Boise, ID (US)
Contact:

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by Prysus »

Lukterran wrote:If a player or NPC has supernatural strength, yet the are only human sized, could they use a giant sized weapon or would their hands be too small to grip it?

If so....why and what kind of weapons would be practical and do you think it would still do the additional 1D6 of damage?

Greetings and Salutations. These are the rules I made for such a situation:

http://www.prysus.com/oversized_weapons.htm

Of course, it never addresses Supernatural Strength directly, but a Supernatural Strength equivalent (ergo, different attribute score, but similar in overall capability) should apply. Also, the writing could probably be cleaned up a bit as I wrote it over 10 years ago.

As for the damage, the weapon damage is the weapon damage. So a giant-sized claymore will deal 4D6 damage regardless of who is wielding it, because that's how much the weapon deals. A strong character might be able to deal more damage with it (such as a P.S. damage bonus, or a Supernatural Being who inflicts more due to their P.S. score), but the weapon's capabilities remain unchanged. Or let's look at the question a different way: If a human picks up a gnome-sized weapon, does it now do the same as a human sized weapon? The answer should be (at least in my opinion): No. The same is true in reverse. So if a human picks up a giant-sized weapon, it will still do giant-sized damage. The real question is if the human can actually use the weapon in any effective manner.

Anyways, hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
Living the Fantasy (fan website)

Rifter #45; Of Bows & Arrows (Archery; expanding rules and abilities)
Rifter #52; From Ruins to Runes (Living Rune Weapons; playable characters and NPC)
Rifter #55; Home Away From Home (Quorian Culture; expanded from PF Book 9: Baalgor Wastelands)

Official PDF versions of Rifter #45, #52, and #55 can be found at DriveThruRPG.
User avatar
kiralon
Champion
Posts: 2800
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:05 pm
Comment: Kill it with Fire.

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by kiralon »

say652 wrote:So I can pick a few tons,punch through a castle but can't use a Nine foot longsword??

Lol. Makes no sense.

Its more the awkwardness of it, when you do an overhead chop you hit the ground behind you, and when you swing as hard as you can because the mass of the item is a lot more similar to you, you move too, so when you do the overhead chop your feet kick forward and up just as much as the sword swings over your head so you don't hit effectively, and its the extra weight you want for it to do the extra damage. Momentum is one of the main problems.

And if one of my players with supernatural strength spell on him punched a stone wall trying to break through it, it would break his hand unless he was naturally supernaturally strong.
User avatar
Veknironth
Hero
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Bowie, MD USA
Contact:

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, Kiralon, Mark, and I have pointed out the problem with the mass being greater than the PC. Just because you can pick something up doesn't mean you can overcome the mass of it when it's swinging. This is how the Mighty Thor used to fly in comics. He'd throw Mjolnir and hang on for the ride. If you pick something up, you're being braced by the ground, which is much more massive than you and the object, otherwise you'd be the ground for it. As long as the combined mass of you and the object you're lifting doesn't over come the compression strength or the density of the ground, you're fine. When you swing something, that ground isn't there to brace. You are essentially using your own mass as an anchor, and if the object you're swinging has more mass than you, you're going for a ride. The exception is if something is holding you to the ground, like a Carpet of Adhesion. Then the force of the swing will be translated to the weakest link in the chain, such as clothing. (I'm ignoring the tendons, ligaments, and connective tissue of the body as it's supernatural)

Kiralon did a good job explaining how awkward the length is.

With the size and the problem with grip, perhaps an example will help with the awkwardness. Imagine, or go to a store and find a large beach ball. It's pretty light and you can easily hold it in the palm of your hand. However, you can't pick it up with your hand from the top. There is no purchase because you can't get the fingers and thumb around it to create the pinching and thus enough friction for the ball to stay in the hand. The same is true for a big ass sword with a hilt that your hand might not fit around.

-Vek
"That's a lot of name dropping for me."
User avatar
ShadowLogan
Palladin
Posts: 7401
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Location: WI

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Mark Hall wrote:Weapon proficiencies are a separate question; the default in Palladium is that anyone can use anything. Want to use a flashnwraslfb? Go right ahead. You may even get PP and PS bonuses, provided flashnwraslfb are eligible for those. But it doesn't mean that flashnwraslfb won't impose penalties on you, either because of awkward (for you) design or other problems.


I agree that WP are a separate question, and am aware of the Palladium default. However, what I am saying is that due to the mismatch in scale, the WP might not apply any more because you can't use it properly/in-the-same-manner as one properly matched in scale. I wouldn't rule out another WP being applicable due to the mismatch.

For example, if you try to use a battle axe that is giant size as a normal sized human, the size of the weapon makes it closer to a "beaked axe" or variety of polearms depending on the size modifier, which means you wouldn't necessarily be able to use WP: Axe, you'd need WP: Spear or WP: Polearm depending on the resulting size. Some swords might be better handled as polearms or spears than as swords if the weapon is giant-size being used by a normal size person. That is using the classification inn the Main Book generic Weapon table (pg268-9).

Now some weapons would not be effected as much and just impose penalties, but others are going to require a different approach to handling, unless as a GM you consider the WP training to cover various sizes (human, giant, gnome, fairy) and not just your character's size classification, a forced changed in handling might be enough to disqualify WP.
User avatar
Library Ogre
Palladium Books® Freelance Writer
Posts: 9801
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 1:01 am
Comment: My comments do not necessarily represent the views of Palladium Books.
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Ah, Gotcha. Yeah, I could definitely see "Stupidly Huge Thing" being a separate WP from "Thing."
-overproduced by Martin Hannett

When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Happiness is a long block list.
If you don't want to be vilified, don't act like a villain.
The Megaverse runs on vibes.
All Palladium Articles
Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
User avatar
say652
Palladin
Posts: 6609
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:32 am
Comment: Avid Cyborg and Braka Braka enthusiast.
Location: 'Murica

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by say652 »

My feelings are based off of rifts where using oversized weapons Two handed is the norm for Juicers and Cyborgs.

The extra d6 from using a really big sword is hardly game breaking.
But with all the talk on the mass of the weapon and overswing, not to hard to say the Cyborgs frame balances the weapon weight by its massive weight.
Juicers being able to use oversized guns and swords. ....I got nothing.
User avatar
Library Ogre
Palladium Books® Freelance Writer
Posts: 9801
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2001 1:01 am
Comment: My comments do not necessarily represent the views of Palladium Books.
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Sure, a cyborg, but that's hardly a common character in Palladium Fantasy.
-overproduced by Martin Hannett

When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Happiness is a long block list.
If you don't want to be vilified, don't act like a villain.
The Megaverse runs on vibes.
All Palladium Articles
Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
User avatar
Lukterran
Adventurer
Posts: 642
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:01 am
Location: The Kingdom of Farr

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by Lukterran »

Veknironth wrote:Well, Kiralon, Mark, and I have pointed out the problem with the mass being greater than the PC. Just because you can pick something up doesn't mean you can overcome the mass of it when it's swinging. This is how the Mighty Thor used to fly in comics. He'd throw Mjolnir and hang on for the ride. If you pick something up, you're being braced by the ground, which is much more massive than you and the object, otherwise you'd be the ground for it. As long as the combined mass of you and the object you're lifting doesn't over come the compression strength or the density of the ground, you're fine. When you swing something, that ground isn't there to brace. You are essentially using your own mass as an anchor, and if the object you're swinging has more mass than you, you're going for a ride. The exception is if something is holding you to the ground, like a Carpet of Adhesion. Then the force of the swing will be translated to the weakest link in the chain, such as clothing. (I'm ignoring the tendons, ligaments, and connective tissue of the body as it's supernatural)

Kiralon did a good job explaining how awkward the length is.

With the size and the problem with grip, perhaps an example will help with the awkwardness. Imagine, or go to a store and find a large beach ball. It's pretty light and you can easily hold it in the palm of your hand. However, you can't pick it up with your hand from the top. There is no purchase because you can't get the fingers and thumb around it to create the pinching and thus enough friction for the ball to stay in the hand. The same is true for a big ass sword with a hilt that your hand might not fit around.

-Vek
"That's a lot of name dropping for me."


That is why it is a good idea to know what the mass of a weapon is for giant sized counterparts. But if giant sized weapons are only x3 to x5 the size of a normal. Than I can see the weight not being an issue at all. The heaviest weapon in the book only weights 8lbs. So at max you could have a 40lb Lance. Everything else isn't as heavy. So the mass issue isn't a worry.

The only issue I see is the girth of the weapon begin able to get your hands around it to grip it and the length or awkwardness of long unbalanced weapons. So I agree there would be some negatives to welding something so unwieldy.

I can also see someone with supernatural strength running around with a giant Buster Sword like Cloud Strife from Final Fantasy...lol
User avatar
say652
Palladin
Posts: 6609
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:32 am
Comment: Avid Cyborg and Braka Braka enthusiast.
Location: 'Murica

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by say652 »

I had a White Tiger Shock Trooper wander in to palladium fantasy 1:1 Ar17. Umm I recommend fleeing the availability of magic items and the level of magic present in the realm makes the Borg under powered and almost useless there.

Lots of hiding and bow shots on my part.
User avatar
kiralon
Champion
Posts: 2800
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:05 pm
Comment: Kill it with Fire.

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by kiralon »

Lukterran wrote:
That is why it is a good idea to know what the mass of a weapon is for giant sized counterparts. But if giant sized weapons are only x3 to x5 the size of a normal. Than I can see the weight not being an issue at all. The heaviest weapon in the book only weights 8lbs. So at max you could have a 40lb Lance. Everything else isn't as heavy. So the mass issue isn't a worry.

The only issue I see is the girth of the weapon begin able to get your hands around it to grip it and the length or awkwardness of long unbalanced weapons. So I agree there would be some negatives to welding something so unwieldy.

I can also see someone with supernatural strength running around with a giant Buster Sword like Cloud Strife from Final Fantasy...lol

Its all about momentum and leverage, the tip of a 3m weapon goes faster than that of a 1m weapon, and a 3m weapon gets more leverage against you than a 1.5 m weapon. That momentum has to be stopped. Swing a normal sized 2h sword and see how you have to move you feet to compensate, now multiply that by 10. The person using the weapon doesn't have the mass to make swings that are the same (as a small weapon swing) with huge weapons unless he can stick his feet to the floor.
and part of the force of a swing also comes from the creatures mass as well.
Try it youself, get a 1m steel pole and swing it around. Do the same with a 4m aluminium pole, which was easier to swing around. Try to stop a hard swing midswing, which was easier.

Rifts doesn't believe in physics. Rifts believes in *********
User avatar
say652
Palladin
Posts: 6609
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:32 am
Comment: Avid Cyborg and Braka Braka enthusiast.
Location: 'Murica

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by say652 »

But if I can lift and throw thousands of pounds.
Regardless of weapon length it's going to move fast.
Personally, I will allow giantsize hand weapons to be used by characters with supernatural strength.

Because adding in another d6 damage is hardly game breaking and feels more like a GM micro managing plot than a real game balance issue.
User avatar
Lukterran
Adventurer
Posts: 642
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:01 am
Location: The Kingdom of Farr

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by Lukterran »

kiralon wrote:
Lukterran wrote:
That is why it is a good idea to know what the mass of a weapon is for giant sized counterparts. But if giant sized weapons are only x3 to x5 the size of a normal. Than I can see the weight not being an issue at all. The heaviest weapon in the book only weights 8lbs. So at max you could have a 40lb Lance. Everything else isn't as heavy. So the mass issue isn't a worry.

The only issue I see is the girth of the weapon begin able to get your hands around it to grip it and the length or awkwardness of long unbalanced weapons. So I agree there would be some negatives to welding something so unwieldy.

I can also see someone with supernatural strength running around with a giant Buster Sword like Cloud Strife from Final Fantasy...lol

Its all about momentum and leverage, the tip of a 3m weapon goes faster than that of a 1m weapon, and a 3m weapon gets more leverage against you than a 1.5 m weapon. That momentum has to be stopped. Swing a normal sized 2h sword and see how you have to move you feet to compensate, now multiply that by 10. The person using the weapon doesn't have the mass to make swings that are the same (as a small weapon swing) with huge weapons unless he can stick his feet to the floor.
and part of the force of a swing also comes from the creatures mass as well.
Try it youself, get a 1m steel pole and swing it around. Do the same with a 4m aluminium pole, which was easier to swing around. Try to stop a hard swing midswing, which was easier.

Rifts doesn't believe in physics. Rifts believes in *********


Doesn't really equate because I do not have supernatural strength. I couldn't even fathom picking up 300 lbs, let alone tons of weight that a supernatural character like a vampire would be capable of lifting. Plus when using weapons the issue isn't to stop the weapon. You want it to get going. The issue is just to get it started moving in the direction you want and allow moment to be your buddy.

Thus wielding a weapon that is 5 lbs or 35 lbs does seem like it wouldn't make much of an issue for a supernaturally strong being. Even if the weapon was 3 times as long; the being would just plant their feet to counter act the weight and their insane strength would compensate against the swinging forces.

Grip and just awkwardness of using a larger weapon seems like the only problem.
User avatar
kiralon
Champion
Posts: 2800
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:05 pm
Comment: Kill it with Fire.

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by kiralon »

Lukterran wrote:
Doesn't really equate because I do not have supernatural strength. I couldn't even fathom picking up 300 lbs, let alone tons of weight that a supernatural character like a vampire would be capable of lifting. Plus when using weapons the issue isn't to stop the weapon. You want it to get going. The issue is just to get it started moving in the direction you want and allow moment to be your buddy.

Thus wielding a weapon that is 5 lbs or 35 lbs does seem like it wouldn't make much of an issue for a supernaturally strong being. Even if the weapon was 3 times as long; the being would just plant their feet to counter act the weight and their insane strength would compensate against the swinging forces.

Grip and just awkwardness of using a larger weapon seems like the only problem.

The force that its applying to the fulcrum is not just the weight of the weapons, the tip of a 3ft sword I think hits about 50-60mph, the tip of a 6ft staff about 110-120 mph the tip of a so guessing the tip of a 12 ft sword with the same swing would be going 200mph, not to mention the leverage involved. I know when I swing a 6ft fubar around and apply force to stop the swing it can pull me off my feet and im not small. Setting your feet doesn't really help, and why would you want to stop a swing, say you miss in a fight, you don't want to turn a full circle and get stabbed in the back, not to mention having to set your feet just in case you miss.

Try finding a really long (60ft or so) piece of plastic pipe (something that doesn't flex much) and try picking the far end up off the ground from one end (say you can only grab the first 2ft of the pipe), its next to impossible even though if you go to the centre its no problem. The leverage against you is massive. Setting your feet makes no difference, when it gets long enough it will unbalance you.
User avatar
say652
Palladin
Posts: 6609
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:32 am
Comment: Avid Cyborg and Braka Braka enthusiast.
Location: 'Murica

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by say652 »

Your basing you math on normal human strength. Not the ability to lift thousands of pounds.
Just about everyone's swung a staff about six feet long. Quick and easy.

I couldn't do a Wushu Kata with a six foot iron wrecker bar.

The 6'5" 350lb guy could. Being eight inches taller and two hundred pounds heavier isn't close to supernatural strength.
But the larger heavier man could swing a Forty pound weapon effectively. While my smaller lighter frame limited me to a stick.

Now if a Supernatural strong person my size attempted the same feat they could probably do the Kata with a weapon eight times the weight I can use, while having the same mass.
User avatar
kiralon
Champion
Posts: 2800
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:05 pm
Comment: Kill it with Fire.

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by kiralon »

yes, but the 60ft pipe I can pick up easily from the middle, from the end no chance, what is tended to be forgotten about with larger than mansize weapons is the exponential increase in leverage and momentum against you that strength cant make up for because you don't have the weight. Your front foot would be the pivot point and your back foot would just lift off the ground because its not heavy enough and then you fall forward, and swinging it makes it much worse.

Now get that 350lbs person to swing that iron bar around as quick as you swing that stick and see what happens. Now keep the weight of that bar and elongate it.
User avatar
Prysus
Champion
Posts: 2593
Joined: Mon May 03, 2004 7:48 pm
Location: Boise, ID (US)
Contact:

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by Prysus »

Greetings and Salutations. Let me start by saying I don't think anyone (or at least any, except maybe one) is saying that it would be easy, just that some people believe it's possible (though difficult) while some people believe it's not possible at all. I'll say I'm in the camp that believes it's possible, though difficult. The exact game mechanics for a fantasy type setting, of course, will vary.

For those who feel it's impossible, let me state that giving examples like comparing the handle of a giant-size weapon to a beach ball isn't helping, because it's an inaccurate comparison. The handle for a Wolfen, Ogre, or Troll (and I'd say the three most common types of giants on the Palladium World) would typically be about twice as big or less (due to their heights compared to humans). Even the largest giants in Palladium I'm fairly sure top out around 20 feet (and that's the highest end), so about 3 to 4 times larger. So doing things like giving false comparisons to try and prove a point more demonstrates the lack of support. Now depending on the specific weapon and how much bigger will determine the difficulty of gripping it. Smaller giant-sized weapons would, of course, be easier to grip than bigger ones.

Let's look at this a different way. In Palladium terms, "giant" starts at 7 feet. Seriously. Wolfen and Ogres are both wield giant-sized weapons, and both of them can be as short as 7 feet. So the argument saying it's impossible to wield something giant-sized is taking the stance that if a weapon was designed for Shaq or Andre the Giant (Fezzik from Princess Bride), that no other human on Earth could wield such a weapon unless they were of equal height. Stop, and think about that. If you think that's ridiculous, then glad we're on the same page. This is just considering humans, not those with supernatural powers. Note: Game mechanics tell us a 7 foot Wolfen or Ogre can use giant-sized weapons, so this is a rather fitting comparison.

Wolfen have a maximum height of 10 feet. That might be twice the height of some smaller humans, and less than that for taller ones. So their weapons aren't going to be as huge as some people are trying to make them out to be. Most won't weigh more than 40 pounds (probably less) or stretch much more than 6 feet. Something like a Bastard Sword (a two-handed weapon) would be about 6 feet (if adjusting in a comparable length from a 6 foot tall human to a 10 foot tall Wolfen, which in Palladium is the tall end for both races). If you're using the lengths listed in the Compendium of Weapons, Armour, & Castles, that's about the same length as a Zweihander. The "mass" is listed as 6.3kg. The weight of the Bastard Sword in the main book is 2.1kg. So if the Bastard Sword weighs 3x as much, it'll equal the weight of the Zweihander. Think about this some more. Does the logic that no human ever in the entire history of the world, regardless of strength, could ever wield a Zweihander make sense? Now I admit they're not the same weapon or balanced the same, but a Zweihander and a giant-sized Bastard Sword are very comparable in length, weight, and even damage (the giant-sized Bastard Sword only does an extra +2 damage).

Now I admit I picked those figures to help demonstrate my point, but those are actual figures from the book and designed to provide a real world visual. There are larger weapons, but there are also lighter weapons. Now I still stand by the fact that giant-sized weapons (in general) will be harder than normal sized weapons, I just don't think it's impossible, especially not in a fantasy game. Farewell and safe journeys.
Living the Fantasy (fan website)

Rifter #45; Of Bows & Arrows (Archery; expanding rules and abilities)
Rifter #52; From Ruins to Runes (Living Rune Weapons; playable characters and NPC)
Rifter #55; Home Away From Home (Quorian Culture; expanded from PF Book 9: Baalgor Wastelands)

Official PDF versions of Rifter #45, #52, and #55 can be found at DriveThruRPG.
42dragon
Explorer
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:54 am

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by 42dragon »

The other thing we are missing between mass and size is that mass is cubed (the size is multiplied in each direction length x width x depth to determine how much material is there to determine the mass). If a sword is 2x bigger it will have a mass 8x the original. If a weapon for a 15ft tall giant is 3x bigger the weapon will have a mass 27x more than the original. And then as has been brought up in great detail the bending-moment of a weapon (how much momentum is swinging around near the end) is based on the distance from the pivot point (grip) that all that mass is acting. So distance times weight. Weight is roughly equal to mass, so you have distance x2 and mass x8 your moment of the weapon is 16x greater the standard weapon, or for the 3x bigger weapon it is x3 and x27 so 81x greater. Even supernatural strength will not allow you to wield that effectively.
User avatar
Veknironth
Hero
Posts: 1529
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Bowie, MD USA
Contact:

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by Veknironth »

Well, in my own defense, I do say at the end of my beach ball comparison "The same is true for a big ass sword with a hilt that your hand might not fit around." Perhaps I should have italicizes "might not". The point of the comparison is to show that there is more to consider than mere mass and strength. If a gnome had supernatural strength and tried to pick up a Jotun-sized weapon, it might have enough strength to manipulate the weapon, but wouldn't be able to grip it. That's one example where there might be a size disparity between circumference and size of someone's hands. Another might be someone wanting to pick up a wooden beam and use it as a club, or a catapult shot and throw it one handed. Somethings are easily lifted but not with one hand because you can't create opposing force to create enough friction.

-Vek
"Donald Trump would have trouble wielding giant-sized weapons regardless of his strength."
User avatar
say652
Palladin
Posts: 6609
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:32 am
Comment: Avid Cyborg and Braka Braka enthusiast.
Location: 'Murica

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by say652 »

So a larger Heavier Cyborg can use giantsize weapons, by default because they are giantsize.
Wolfen, Ogres and of course Giants also.

But!!

The Godling with a Supernatural Strength 60 cannot.
.......ummmmm ok.
O.o
User avatar
Lukterran
Adventurer
Posts: 642
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:01 am
Location: The Kingdom of Farr

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by Lukterran »

42dragon wrote:The other thing we are missing between mass and size is that mass is cubed (the size is multiplied in each direction length x width x depth to determine how much material is there to determine the mass). If a sword is 2x bigger it will have a mass 8x the original. If a weapon for a 15ft tall giant is 3x bigger the weapon will have a mass 27x more than the original. And then as has been brought up in great detail the bending-moment of a weapon (how much momentum is swinging around near the end) is based on the distance from the pivot point (grip) that all that mass is acting. So distance times weight. Weight is roughly equal to mass, so you have distance x2 and mass x8 your moment of the weapon is 16x greater the standard weapon, or for the 3x bigger weapon it is x3 and x27 so 81x greater. Even supernatural strength will not allow you to wield that effectively.


That all depends what was meant be x3 to x5 as large as normal weapons. I doubt Kevin S. was refering to a cubical multiplication and to be honest didn't really think about size and weight too much when coming up with those multipliers. My personal opinion was that he want a simple rule and saying it weighed three to five times as much (meaning multiple the weight of the weapon = "x" by "3" "4" or "5").

To use Prysus example above. A Wolfen which is considered giant sized would be between 7-10ft tall. So using a bastard sword as an example. Which is normally only 3.75ft long (much smaller than a normal person) would be 11.25ft long (x3) at its smallest scale (i.e., longer than the tallest Wolfen) and scaling it at that rate would make a weapon that only normally weights 4.5lbs weight almost 92lbs. Something that a Wolfen couldn't even possibly use.

So your math is based on rules that don't take into account that level of minutia to come up with a good figure to be able to cubical scale a normal weapon into a giant sized weapon.

Always when dealing with game rules use the K.I.S.S. filter. The simplest answer is often times the correct one.
User avatar
kiralon
Champion
Posts: 2800
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:05 pm
Comment: Kill it with Fire.

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by kiralon »

I use +1d6 Damage per size category, so an extra 1d6 for 7-12ft, +2d6 for 12-18ft, +3d6 for 18-24dt and so on and I do allow people to use the next weapon size up but you get -3 to strike and -1 attack per round and fleet feet/haste only makes it worse because you are swinging it around twice as fast.
Thanks for the Math 42Dragon, was too early in the morning to remember

This brings back memories of a few caffeine fuelled late night discussions about this.
42dragon
Explorer
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:54 am

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by 42dragon »

Lukterran wrote:That all depends what was meant be x3 to x5 as large as normal weapons. I doubt Kevin S. was refering to a cubical multiplication and to be honest didn't really think about size and weight too much when coming up with those multipliers. My personal opinion was that he want a simple rule and saying it weighed three to five times as much (meaning multiple the weight of the weapon = "x" by "3" "4" or "5").

To use Prysus example above. A Wolfen which is considered giant sized would be between 7-10ft tall. So using a bastard sword as an example. Which is normally only 3.75ft long (much smaller than a normal person) would be 11.25ft long (x3) at its smallest scale (i.e., longer than the tallest Wolfen) and scaling it at that rate would make a weapon that only normally weights 4.5lbs weight almost 92lbs. Something that a Wolfen couldn't even possibly use.

So your math is based on rules that don't take into account that level of minutia to come up with a good figure to be able to cubical scale a normal weapon into a giant sized weapon.

Always when dealing with game rules use the K.I.S.S. filter. The simplest answer is often times the correct one.


That is one way to look at it. But really if a wolfen is at 7-10ft tall we are looking at roughly 1.5x bigger than a human. 1.5*1.5*1.5=3.375. So this would fall into the x3 to x5 range. I doubt the creators really looked into this at this detail, but the math does happen to work. Sometimes the K.I.S.S. method is too simple and falls apart when trying to answer a question that is not directly answered by canon.

kiralon, I like that take on giant sized weapons. It makes sense that not all giant sized weapons are the same.
User avatar
JuliusCreed
Hero
Posts: 1115
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:56 pm
Comment: Yesterday is history,
Tomorrow is a mystery,
But today is a gift.
That's why it is called "the present".
Location: Texas... what country are you from?

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by JuliusCreed »

I can speak from personal experience here. At one point in my life I owned a sword that measured nearly 6 feet in length and weighed in around 10-15 pounds. Pretty sure it would qualify as a giant sized short sword at least.
While rather ungainly as a one-handed weapon, with practice I was eventually able to wield it to some extent. By far it was much easier to use with two hands, it's blade length and overall weight lending a great deal of force to wide sweeping strikes and great overhead chops that could likely cleave a man's head.
However,it should be noted that the weapon itself was still built to be used by human hands as reflected it the fact of the relatively thin handle. We're it made for a truly giant sized being, I'd imagine my hands would likely not be able to grip it so easily and there would probably be a bit more weight to it as well, making it that much harder to wield effectively in any way
Sure, lions and tigers are stronger...
But I've never seen a wolf jump through hoops in a circus
User avatar
mirithol
Wanderer
Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:42 am
Comment: What would Little Finger do?
Location: Captain's Quarters - The Scarlet Kraken

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by mirithol »

Excellent - now we're getting into hand sizes...
User avatar
say652
Palladin
Posts: 6609
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:32 am
Comment: Avid Cyborg and Braka Braka enthusiast.
Location: 'Murica

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by say652 »

So a normal size mutant with extra large hands and Supernatural strength could use giantsize weapons.

He can wrap his giantsize hands around the weapon and is strong enough to use it.
User avatar
RavenStarver
Explorer
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:50 pm

Re: Supernatural Strength and Giant Sized Weapons

Unread post by RavenStarver »

I didn't see anyone mention this so I'll jump in! Pool party!
Surprisingly enough there is actually a canon rule for using oversized weapons in the Fantasy books.
It's probably in the stupidest spot ever but it is there. In the Eastern Territory book, top left of page 224 its talking about Stone Golems (probably used to defend one of the cities) and it lists the Flamberges these things are carrying. Now, these things are listed as 15 feet tall, so they are proper Giant sized, and their swords are listed as doing 5d6 damage plus their strength. That seems odd to me as a normal Flamberge does 3d6 and a Giant one would do 4d6, so maybe truly giant weapons actually do increasing damage.
But the big point I was making (cursed tangenting!) is that heres what it says in the last paragraph of their stats, and I quote,
"Note that anyone with less than a 25 PS trying to use these weapons will lose one attack per melee and be -2 to strike, parry and dodge due to their size and weight. The weapons can not be lifted by anyone with a PS lower than 18"

Edit: so it looks like Prysus is almost right on the money with his rule. :ok:
Post Reply

Return to “Palladium Fantasy RPG®”