A Unique Rune Weapon

[Razorwing]

While going through the Ruins to Ruin article from Rifter 52, I started to think of an idea for a rather unique form of weapon for one of these Living Rune Weapons... namely one that looks very much like a stylized pistol.

Now I know that Rune Weapons can't have moving parts (decorative wings that let a weapon fly aren't actually moving parts... it is the magic of the weapon's design that allows them to move in such a manner), which would normally preclude weapons like pistols that have many moving parts. Then I remembered about the Dragon Rod Rune Weapon from Rifts Atlantis that has a pistol-like shape... so it is possible.

The next part would be that firearms don't actually exist in the Palladium setting... but the world does have dimensional portals that have allowed people to come to the world from other dimensions... some of which do have firearms. This is why there is the Modern Weapon WP skill in the book... because it is at least theoretically possible that such a weapon could be acquired. Now, my thinking for this particular weapon's creation was that during the Elf-Dwarf war, when both sides were summoning beings from other dimensions to fight for them, one of these beings possessed such a modern weapon which caught the attention of a Dwarven Runesmith. Now, the Dwarf would have no way to recreate the "magic" of such a weapon through conventional means, but such a weapon inspired him to design a Rune Weapon that possessed the same shape and magical equivalent of such a weapon's powers. The end result is a Rune Pistol.

My general thoughts on the way the weapon works is that it probably uses elemental magics (fire being the most obvious) and that these spells are cast as if the wielder of the weapon were using it as a firearm... the spells effects come out of the gun's barrel. I tend to go with the idea that Rune Weapons like this have a PPE reservoir with which to cast these spells (cast them in any order and as often as one wishes... as long as there is sufficient PPE to do so) rather than as a set number of times per day. Once the PPE reserve is depleted, the Rune Pistol is out of "ammo", so to speak. However, even when out of ammunition, it can still be used as a blunt weapon (pistol whipping), doing damage as per usual for the weapon (the Dragon Rod does 4d6 in such cases).

I think I have thought this idea through fairly thoroughly... but I thought I would check to see if anyone saw any problems with the over all concept before proceeding. Additionally, if anyone had any suggestions for a possible name for such a weapon... well, feel free to make the suggestion.

[ShadowLogan]

Well "firearms" aren't very common, but you could have it as a "stylized broken" crossbow as a more likely scenario and per the listing under the WP: Archery skill they do have "pistol crossbows". So you aren't wrong here in getting a "firearm" resembling creation.

Also Rifts Japan (WB8 pg37-8), it is also in Rifts Book of Magic, has the "TW Fire-Breathing Arquebus" that while listed as TW device it really comes across as a Lesser Rune weapon since it works by "binding fire elementals to metal replicas", which is not dissimilar to Rune weapons IMHO (binding a life force). Some of these are also pre-Rifts in origin ("During the Great Cataclysm, these weapons became powerful mega-damage 'guns'"), and on Rifts Earth due to the high magic level has unlimited payload (restricted ROF), something that likely has to change for PFs lower magic levels.

So creating your end product, or something like it, is not out of the question IMHO.

[Razorwing]

Over all, I think that a Crossbow has far too many moving parts to ever really be considered as a viable idea to base a rune weapon on... which is why when a Dwarven Runesmith first encountered a "modern" gun he was intrigued by the sleeker design of the weapon in comparison to what was commonly available. True, he may not have understood the "magics" that made it work, but creating a weapon that had a similar appearance and capabilities wasn't beyond his grasp.

Yes, firearms are very rare in the Palladium world... with all of them coming from other dimensions and times via dimensional rifts... but they have appeared often enough that it is at least conceivable that at some point during the Elf-Dwarf war that a Dwarven Runesmith could have encountered one... and base a rune weapon design on it. Given the varieties of Rune Weapon designs that are known (from weapons and armor to objects like books and anvils), one inspired by the look of a gun doesn't really seem that far fetched. It probably was never a popular design... and likely most examples have either been disposed of or disappeared, but then that could be said of most rune weapons to begin with.

Mostly I am just trying to figure out the reasoning such a Runesmith might have to try and design such a weapon.

[Library Ogre]

It wouldn't be too dissimilar from a wand, really. If his intention is to create a rune weapon whose primary use was firing magical projectiles (physical or energy), then something stylized like a wand wouldn't be unreasonable.

[mirithol]

Now I know that Rune Weapons can't have moving parts (decorative wings that let a weapon fly aren't actually moving parts.

Razorwing - can you reference this?

Also, if you make the pistol a soul sucker, then the souls it collects could re-power it for some nasty effects.

Do you intend for the pistol to need ammo, or does it gate in some nether-worldly matter to shoot?

Accidental on-purpose misfires could be a real problem for the other player characters that **** off the pistol, "Sorry Boss. I don't know what happened? I didn't like the Elf anyway..." Even the owner would have to be careful where the thing was pointing at any given moment.

[Veknironth]

Well, I was going to write what Mark wrote but he beat me to it, obviously. I'll pile on, though. There is really no need for this item. If it's magic, it's going to be aimed magically by line of sight. So, you won't need sights, a trigger, a magazine well, magazines, magazine release, bullets, a barrel, an extractor, grips, etc.. So why even bother making it other than to tell the other players "Look, my guy has a gun!". Any rune item that shoots fireballs will operate the same regardless of how it's shaped. So, if you're a runesmith, why bother with some bulky, bizarre shape? Make it a ring. It's easy to carry, hide, and use.

-Vek
"Again, I'm negative."

[cosmicfish]

Magically, it's just a wand. Really, there is no reason for it to be anything other than a wand because it doesn't do anything that a wand couldn't do and wands already exist in the setting. The Dragon Rod from rifts is gun-shaped just for style points.

The only practical reason I can think of for a gun-shaped rune weapon would be if there was some reason the user would not be able to direct the magical attack in the usual fashion. Perhaps it is an early rune weapon and the aiming control was not great, so the runesmith fixed the firebolts (or whatever) to ONLY come out of the end, and realized that bending it so you could look down the shaft would make it easier to aim (and perhaps justifying a modern WP to use it well). I would expect that would still look more like a wand or arrow bend into a gun-like shape than an actual gun.

[ShadowLogan]

It wouldn't be too dissimilar from a wand, really. If his intention is to create a rune weapon whose primary use was firing magical projectiles (physical or energy), then something stylized like a wand wouldn't be unreasonable.

At least looking at Rifts where TW weapons can use the modern WP equivalent for bonuses, and we know magic/rune weapons also use appropriate WP. So have a "Rune" gun/bow from a skill perspective would make sense than a simple rod since I don't think a rod in this fashion is subject to an existing WP AFAIK.

[Razorwing]

Now I know that Rune Weapons can't have moving parts (decorative wings that let a weapon fly aren't actually moving parts.

Razorwing - can you reference this?

Also, if you make the pistol a soul sucker, then the souls it collects could re-power it for some nasty effects.

Do you intend for the pistol to need ammo, or does it gate in some nether-worldly matter to shoot?

Accidental on-purpose misfires could be a real problem for the other player characters that **** off the pistol, "Sorry Boss. I don't know what happened? I didn't like the Elf anyway..." Even the owner would have to be careful where the thing was pointing at any given moment.

The "no moving parts" is mentioned in a note under the 8 normal features of Lesser Rune Weapons from Rifts Atlantis... specifically how rune weapons are crafted from metal or hard stone, ideally from one piece or molded into a single piece... no gears. Wings that allow such a weapon to fly is animation magic that doesn't count as a "moving part" and while some rune weapons can change form into something less threatening, it is often a special magical feature... and as such often counts as one of the powers of said weapon.

Unfortunately, such a weapon can't be a Soul Drinker as such a power requires a bladed weapon to cut and draw blood. This weapon, at best, can be used as a blunt object... much like the Dragon Rod which inspired it.

The weapon's PPE would be it's "ammo" for the various spells that it can perform. Unlike most Rune Weapons that can the spells it knows a number of times per day, I have chosen to go with a PPE reserve within the weapon that can be used to cast its spells as often as desired... so long as there is sufficient PPP to do so. There will be a selections of spells... some with durations longer than Instant that allow the user to make use of the effects for more than a single attack. Which spells used will be the character's choice... though the weapon may choose to offer advice depending on the situation. The PPE reserve will regenerate with time... likely at a rate comparable to most men of magic.

As for misfires... the Rune Weapon can still choose not to let its spells be used by its owner (willfully refusing to spend the PPE to power the spell), thus if the owner tries to "blast" someone the weapon would like to live... it can refuse to do so (the weapon is casting the spell at the owner's request... thus it can choose to cancel the spell when it desires... even if the duration isn't up yet). However, the weapon can't initiate the spell on its own, so it can't "accidently" fire on its own... to shoot someone it wants dead. Likewise, while the weapon can prevent its spells from being used against its desires, it can't prevent the owner from using it in other manners... like as a blunt object to bludgeon a person to death. The weapon sees itself as its owner's partner... not as a slave to its owner... and will not act against its own alignment (a Principled Weapon will never shoot an unarmed or innocent person... no matter what its owner desires).

As for the WP involved with it's use... Modern Weapons (Palladium Fantasy) would work, though it doesn't seem to actually give any bonuses (I may be wrong). Additionally, the Dragon Rod this weapon was inspired by said it could be used as a blunt object... thus WP Blunt would be applicable (when used as such). Other WPs may also prove useful depending on the spells being used (Fire Whip would benefit from WP Whip for example). However, as most of its combat abilities will be in the form of spells, it is likely that the spells and any bonuses they have will take precedence over any combat bonuses the character may have (PP bonus may normally add to strike with guns... but it isn't likely to add to a Fire Ball spell).

[Alrik Vas]

I suggest giving it spells per day like a normal rune weapon. These would be the specialty rounds it fires to deal with specific opponents. It's standard damage should be 4d6, non-elemental. Making called shots should auto-defeat AR, making Aimed Shots should have a 15-20 critical. Surprise attacks should deal HP damage. All damage dealing spells it uses should work off the gun's bonus to hit. Any saving throws should be observed normally unless the save is a dodge.

I like it super deadly, though.

[Razorwing]

And where would such "rounds" come from? Does the weapon generate them magically? How many rounds can it produce? How long does it take to produce them? Does it cost PPE to do so?

I decided to use the rules presented in Ruins to Runes with which to develop the powers of this weapon. Since it is unlikely that the Runesmith would know how to create bullets for such a weapon... and unlikely that such rounds could be found... I am of the mind that this Runesmith would opt for less limiting ammunition... in the form of spells that are "fired" from the weapon instead. A Fire Elemental weapon seems like the best fit.

While I am going with the look and feel of a gun for this weapon... I am not trying to create an exact replica of such weapons for Palladium Fantasy... but rather a unique weapon that players can recognize as being inspired by such a weapon yet having a fantasy-like feel to it. In other words, this isn't going to be a Palladium version of a gun, but rather one Runesmith's reimagining of such a weapon for use in the War.

[Axelmania]

I don't understand why you couldn't make a non-moving gun which is then able to fire via animation like the wings.

Also wasn't there a rune bow somewhere? Bowstrings move...

Perhaps create "Cross Bow" the rune bow who is very cross.

[Hendrik]

Mostly I am just trying to figure out the reasoning such a Runesmith might have to try and design such a weapon.

Hi Razorwing,

I think that it is a very intriguing thought.

The main principle here is probably "form follows function". Here are my two cents on that in our case:

- If we imagine the dwarf as a "product designer" engineer type, he would certainly look at what form is required "to do the job". He may then change it to something more beautiful, but he would not kill the basic form.
- I do not think that it is likely that he would try to make a pistol because he has seen a "real" pistol. I guess that is the gamer who wants to make a fantasy pistol (which is fine), but I should think, our dwarf will do what he is technically able and culturally predisposed to do (which makes rune weapons a tad, err, taboo-ish, but let's say he does), he would thus find a form beginning by what he knows and then developing towards what is needed.
- It makes sense to design it like a one-piece "crossbow" shape just because he knows how a crossbow looks like and a crossbow has a nice grip.
- A "pistol grip" makes sense if whatever you put into the "rune-wand" requires a strike roll for a ranged attack.
- If you don't need a ranged strike roll (or even if you do) a small wand with a knife hilt may make much more sense than the pistol design. A small wand is easy to tuck away, it also has a nice and reassuring grip (knife), and it is something he knows (design along known design).
- A rifle stock makes no real sense, unless there is recoil or a big targeting device.
- I agree with the idea that he would probably think "spell" and not "kinetic weapon".

I am not saying pistols cannot be designed on a fantasy world, but I think it is very unlikely. The form is not "sleek" or "sexy" to a dwarf. It would only be that if the form would be an improvement to do the job (lob spells etc.) and I don't see why a pistol form would help doing that.

Kindest regards
Hendrik

[Hendrik]

PS: I remember a "Gattling gun of Fireball Wands" we had in our games. Basically it was a drum shapped thing with a crank and a dozen fireball wands attached to it. It was a monty haul idea by the GM at the time. He ruled that those wands where activated by touch ... so the gunner would use the crank and hold his hand just so that the fireball wands were touched by him. It turned once per round... BIG boom. I don't think it was legit under the rules, but very memorable.

That said, the form made sense for the purpose.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Now I know that Rune Weapons can't have moving parts (decorative wings that let a weapon fly aren't actually moving parts.

Razorwing - can you reference this?

Also, if you make the pistol a soul sucker, then the souls it collects could re-power it for some nasty effects.

Do you intend for the pistol to need ammo, or does it gate in some nether-worldly matter to shoot?

Accidental on-purpose misfires could be a real problem for the other player characters that **** off the pistol, "Sorry Boss. I don't know what happened? I didn't like the Elf anyway..." Even the owner would have to be careful where the thing was pointing at any given moment.

The "no moving parts" is mentioned in a note under the 8 normal features of Lesser Rune Weapons from Rifts Atlantis... specifically how rune weapons are crafted from metal or hard stone, ideally from one piece or molded into a single piece... no gears. Wings that allow such a weapon to fly is animation magic that doesn't count as a "moving part" and while some rune weapons can change form into something less threatening, it is often a special magical feature... and as such often counts as one of the powers of said weapon.

Unfortunately, such a weapon can't be a Soul Drinker as such a power requires a bladed weapon to cut and draw blood. This weapon, at best, can be used as a blunt object... much like the Dragon Rod which inspired it..

I will note that the requirement to draw blood is not a requirement for bladed weapons. There are multiple examples of cannonical staff soul drinkers.

And it makes sense. ever hear the phrase "Beat someone bloody"? If you hit someone hard enough with a blunt object, it will break the skin and they will bleed--and that's all that's required. it's just that while bladed weapons can reliably do so on every hit, a staff soul drinker would have to likely bash someone's SDC away and get down to HP before it can reliably draw blood. That makes it less useful as a soul drinker, but by no means impossible (As we see, it's already been done).

Of course, both the soul drinking staffs i'm thinking of have skulls with horns on top, so maybe the intention is to jab them with the horns to draw blood. that's another possibility

[kiralon]

Id make it 2 parts, the pistol, and a blade that comes out of the pistol that actually does the soul drinking, when someone's soul is drunk it creates a soul bullet that the gun fires.

[Razorwing]

While I do appreciate the suggestions... I have more or less decided on the weapon's look and abilities. It is going to look like a pistol... much like the Dragon Rod from Atlantis does. It is going to have elemental spells to replicate the "rounds" the inspiring weapon had. It is not going to be a Soul-Drinker.

As I said before, I am basing the design of the weapon's abilities off of the Ruins to Runes article from Rifter 52. I am also adhering to the idea that Rune Weapons are made from a single piece of metal or stone... no moving parts. The animation magic that allows weapons with wings to fly really wouldn't help it to "throw" ammunition anyways... since it doesn't actually use bullets of any sort.

My original intent was to see if the basic concept of a Rune Weapon shaped like a pistol could conceivably be forged during the Elf-Dwarf War in the Palladium setting. We know that both sides were summoning beings from other dimensions through out the conflict. I am thinking that during this time, an individual from a high tech world was dragged through one of these rifts (intentionally or accidentally) and he brought a high tech energy weapon with him. The weapon was likely powerful... and to the Dwarves, would seem almost magical. I am thinking that this weapon was able to do some serious damage to impress the Runesmith that would build this rune weapon to replicate such power. As for the weapon itself... it likely ran out of power eventually since there was likely no way to recharge any e-clips to power it... which could have prompted the original owner to seek out the Dwarves to commission a replacement weapon... something that might have been considered if he had sided with the Dwarves in the war (not a far fetched idea to be honest). Of course the Runesmith had no concept of the scientific principles the original weapon worked on, thus he would replace such functions with magical equivalents. Giving the weapon Fire Elemental spells would seem a logical choice... especially if the pistol was some sort of energy weapon. Giving it a sleek, stylized pistol design would be in keeping with the original weapon's appearance.

As for what happened to the futuristic warrior that owned the weapon that inspired this one... his fate is likely lost to history (it has been over 8000 years since that time... and the fate of any one individual from then is likely to never be fully known). As for the Rune Weapon... again it has most likely been hidden and lost until recently (maybe it is one of these Living Rune Weapons and it has recently become active). Whether its history will ever be known is something the weapon will have to decide to reveal... or not (records from when it was made have likely been lost or destroyed, but it might be possible to piece together a few details... though how accurate they may be is anyone's guess).

[eliakon]

I had an interesting thought.....
The spell lightning strike charges a missile with lightning....
if there was a groove in the 'handle' where you could 'load' it with the 'bullets'(like say blow darts or something) that it fires via TK or the like...those bullets could turn into lightning bolts...
Just a thought. That may or may not be of use.

[Alrik Vas]

The "rounds" would be magical energy blasts. Just like you were saying, it would cast spells. I gave damage and use for the "default" shot, which wouldn't cut into uses per day.