Paper armor question

[Zer0 Kay]

Now! Parchment paper rock and war band beat a rhythm... On the shield not his head. I SWEAR... no more trolls.

[kiralon]

I'm still curious how you write pure silver onto paper, wards let you have a mix that's needs to be at least %64 pure.
Runes on paper have to be pure silver.

[RavenStarver]

I'm still curious how you write pure silver onto paper, wards let you have a mix that's needs to be at least %64 pure.
Runes on paper have to be pure silver.

Isn't the saying, "It's magic. We don't have to explain it."

[kiralon]

and if there was a write with silver magic spell id accept that, wards and symbols give you a method of doing it, rune magic doesn't seem to, that might be why its secret, only a few know how to actually do it.

[Hotrod]

It's interesting how this question has popped up from time to time on this forum. The consensus seems to be that it should be possible, but of course, we already have a canon answer in the rulebook saying that it's a bad idea. The intent of this bit is to establish that runes are passively powerful and to provide a way of allowing truly ancient documents to survive to the present day. Using it this way is a shenanigan that flies counter to Kevin's ruling, and I'm ok with that.

I'd love to play a silver rune edition of Rock Paper Scissors sometime.

[eliakon]

Also I would like to point out that the massive amount of detailed craftsmanship involving thousands of individual pieces of parchement each folded in ways that would impress most origami masters using a secret knowledge that no one with the armor lore needed to pull this off has....is going to cost how much? tens of millions?
For what? something that we already have several of, cheaper, easier, less cumbersome, canon ways of doing (Armor that for all intents and purposes has nAR. Since that is what every other suit of indestructible armor is set up as)

This is an amusing thought experiment.....but it is pretty firmly in the realm of Rube-Goldberg invention.

[Zer0 Kay]

Also I would like to point out that the massive amount of detailed craftsmanship involving thousands of individual pieces of parchement each folded in ways that would impress most origami masters using a secret knowledge that no one with the armor lore needed to pull this off has....is going to cost how much? tens of millions?
For what? something that we already have several of, cheaper, easier, less cumbersome, canon ways of doing (Armor that for all intents and purposes has nAR. Since that is what every other suit of indestructible armor is set up as)

This is an amusing thought experiment.....but it is pretty firmly in the realm of Rube-Goldberg invention.

How is the shield drum anywhere near a Rube-Goldberg?

[eliakon]

Also I would like to point out that the massive amount of detailed craftsmanship involving thousands of individual pieces of parchement each folded in ways that would impress most origami masters using a secret knowledge that no one with the armor lore needed to pull this off has....is going to cost how much? tens of millions?
For what? something that we already have several of, cheaper, easier, less cumbersome, canon ways of doing (Armor that for all intents and purposes has nAR. Since that is what every other suit of indestructible armor is set up as)

This is an amusing thought experiment.....but it is pretty firmly in the realm of Rube-Goldberg invention.

How is the shield drum anywhere near a Rube-Goldberg?

Well the shield drum is a bit overkill....
when for 30,000 GP you can get any weapon made indestructible. Shields are wielded with a WP.....

But mainly the Rube-Goldberg was the idea of folding the armor, then stitching the pieces with other pieces are parchment, that are then mounted on yet more pieces.......

[Veknironth]

Well, it occurs to me that a great use of this would be for a bag or satchel. An unbreakable bag. That'd be worth something.

-Vek
"Killer app!"

[Zer0 Kay]

Also I would like to point out that the massive amount of detailed craftsmanship involving thousands of individual pieces of parchement each folded in ways that would impress most origami masters using a secret knowledge that no one with the armor lore needed to pull this off has....is going to cost how much? tens of millions?
For what? something that we already have several of, cheaper, easier, less cumbersome, canon ways of doing (Armor that for all intents and purposes has nAR. Since that is what every other suit of indestructible armor is set up as)

This is an amusing thought experiment.....but it is pretty firmly in the realm of Rube-Goldberg invention.

How is the shield drum anywhere near a Rube-Goldberg?

Well the shield drum is a bit overkill....
when for 30,000 GP you can get any weapon made indestructible. Shields are wielded with a WP.....

But mainly the Rube-Goldberg was the idea of folding the armor, then stitching the pieces with other pieces are parchment, that are then mounted on yet more pieces.......

Okay that is most certainly a Rube-Goldberg, not to mention I could see how that would be more expensive than the metal version, unless it was made by slaves.

But how is the drum over kill? We have no clue how much it costs to use the silver rune, it is never stated as being difficult, it is completely different from rune magic so it isn't lost and it is inferred IIRC that all scrolls are done this way and when the magic is cast the writing and the parchment disappear/disintegrate... IIRC. But a parchment shield with only a dwarven, or whatever the best steel is, frame would be lighter than a wood shield.

[Zer0 Kay]

Well, it occurs to me that a great use of this would be for a bag or satchel. An unbreakable bag. That'd be worth something.

-Vek
"Killer app!"

But the string used to tie the bag wouldn't be unbreakable and with a single cut all the contents of the bag would pour out. So worthless.

That would actually be another great idea for its use.

Moccasins with the padded insole on the inside.

A Shirt

Pants

Never have to replace your clothes because of a tear again. Have the rune be like the tag on the back of jeans, the mages mark. Hey my pants are made by Helios of Bletherad, who did yours? Designer parchment clothes.

[Zer0 Kay]

Actually a tight unbreakable parchment shirt would distribute the force of any piercing attack across all of your abdomen as the point is trying to penetrate, because their is no give it pulls all across your body distributing the force, unless the unbreakability of the material is because it becomes infinitely stretchable... hmm now there is a question. What is the unbreakable nature of the parchment?

[eliakon]

Also I would like to point out that the massive amount of detailed craftsmanship involving thousands of individual pieces of parchement each folded in ways that would impress most origami masters using a secret knowledge that no one with the armor lore needed to pull this off has....is going to cost how much? tens of millions?
For what? something that we already have several of, cheaper, easier, less cumbersome, canon ways of doing (Armor that for all intents and purposes has nAR. Since that is what every other suit of indestructible armor is set up as)

This is an amusing thought experiment.....but it is pretty firmly in the realm of Rube-Goldberg invention.

How is the shield drum anywhere near a Rube-Goldberg?

Well the shield drum is a bit overkill....
when for 30,000 GP you can get any weapon made indestructible. Shields are wielded with a WP.....

But mainly the Rube-Goldberg was the idea of folding the armor, then stitching the pieces with other pieces are parchment, that are then mounted on yet more pieces.......

Okay that is most certainly a Rube-Goldberg, not to mention I could see how that would be more expensive than the metal version, unless it was made by slaves.

I am not sure that I can really see anyone (other than say... the Splugorth ) having a slave shop full of super highly skilled master craftsmen working on semi-rune magic armor.....

But how is the drum over kill? We have no clue how much it costs to use the silver rune, it is never stated as being difficult, it is completely different from rune magic so it isn't lost and it is inferred IIRC that all scrolls are done this way and when the magic is cast the writing and the parchment disappear/disintegrate... IIRC.

Actually it says that the rune can not be put on scrolls.
But it is said to be a secret known only to Diabolists. Which sort of narrows down the list of people who could know to do this radically.
Not to mention the fact that if you do go around making them you sort of have to reveal the knowledge that you have. A knowledge btw that may well get you and every other diabolist around you killed since no one else is going to understand the out of game difference between "this is rune magic" and "this is Rune Magic".....

But a parchment shield with only a dwarven, or whatever the best steel is, frame would be lighter than a wood shield.

And still gets into the question of "making all those tiny fiddily bits so that it stays on when hit"
AND still needs the obscure, rare, secret "silver runes make parchment indestructible lore"
AND requires you to find a Dwarf that will deign to make such a thing
AND is still begging the question of 'why not just get a nice Indestructible, Weightless (shields are both weapons and armor so it should be able to get this), Invisible (for that parry bonus), Dwarven master work (for that sweet parry bonus, and if its a Hexan shield....) shield?
Heck, even if you cant get weightless you still looking at something that is going to cost way less, and shields are not all that heavy in game....

[Zer0 Kay]

Also I would like to point out that the massive amount of detailed craftsmanship involving thousands of individual pieces of parchement each folded in ways that would impress most origami masters using a secret knowledge that no one with the armor lore needed to pull this off has....is going to cost how much? tens of millions?
For what? something that we already have several of, cheaper, easier, less cumbersome, canon ways of doing (Armor that for all intents and purposes has nAR. Since that is what every other suit of indestructible armor is set up as)

This is an amusing thought experiment.....but it is pretty firmly in the realm of Rube-Goldberg invention.

How is the shield drum anywhere near a Rube-Goldberg?

Well the shield drum is a bit overkill....
when for 30,000 GP you can get any weapon made indestructible. Shields are wielded with a WP.....

But mainly the Rube-Goldberg was the idea of folding the armor, then stitching the pieces with other pieces are parchment, that are then mounted on yet more pieces.......

Okay that is most certainly a Rube-Goldberg, not to mention I could see how that would be more expensive than the metal version, unless it was made by slaves.

I am not sure that I can really see anyone (other than say... the Splugorth ) having a slave shop full of super highly skilled master craftsmen working on semi-rune magic armor.....

But how is the drum over kill? We have no clue how much it costs to use the silver rune, it is never stated as being difficult, it is completely different from rune magic so it isn't lost and it is inferred IIRC that all scrolls are done this way and when the magic is cast the writing and the parchment disappear/disintegrate... IIRC.

Actually it says that the rune can not be put on scrolls.
But it is said to be a secret known only to Diabolists. Which sort of narrows down the list of people who could know to do this radically.
Not to mention the fact that if you do go around making them you sort of have to reveal the knowledge that you have. A knowledge btw that may well get you and every other diabolist around you killed since no one else is going to understand the out of game difference between "this is rune magic" and "this is Rune Magic".....

But a parchment shield with only a dwarven, or whatever the best steel is, frame would be lighter than a wood shield.

And still gets into the question of "making all those tiny fiddily bits so that it stays on when hit"
AND still needs the obscure, rare, secret "silver runes make parchment indestructible lore"
AND requires you to find a Dwarf that will deign to make such a thing
AND is still begging the question of 'why not just get a nice Indestructible, Weightless (shields are both weapons and armor so it should be able to get this), Invisible (for that parry bonus), Dwarven master work (for that sweet parry bonus, and if its a Hexan shield....) shield?
Heck, even if you cant get weightless you still looking at something that is going to cost way less, and shields are not all that heavy in game....

Master Origami craftsmen.
They aren't even semi-rune. Diabolist can use the same runes that are on rune weapons it is the binding a soul to the item that makes it a rune weapon and not some weapon with runes on it.
Okay, thank you for correcting me.
Narrow but a class available to characters
Uh.. IG mages and others that can identify rune weapons would know as 1. It is far less magic and 2. there is no entity in it. 3. Along that thought line it is just as likely to get you killed as it is to get you hired by a kingdom and protected.

1. Why do you have to make fiddly bits? Are you talking on the parchment? If so... don't just make a large square piece and cut it down after you put it in the frame. If your talking the frame... why do they have to be small and/or fiddly?
2. Be a Diabolist class tahdah no longer rare... to you
3. Because Dwarves hate making simple non enchanted things for money...
4. Because now your making the alternative cost a LOT negating previous arguments that the parchment costs too much all those enchantments and a full dwarven shield is going to cost a heck of a lot more than parchment made from a large bear skin or other suitably large beast, a "decorative" dwarven made frame, some silver and your own diabolist character to do the act.

[MrShowtime]

Mythbusters covered paper armor. It really does work. Look it up and add it as you see fit. And I would make it from The Land of the South Winds because of it's unknown state.

[eliakon]

Master Origami craftsmen.

So first, we are inventing an entirely new class of hyper skilled labor for the game...

They aren't even semi-rune. Diabolist can use the same runes that are on rune weapons it is the binding a soul to the item that makes it a rune weapon and not some weapon with runes on it.

Um no. It is the 'Uses rune magic' that makes them the Legendary Rune weapons. The different kinds of rune magic in play are important yes..... but that by the way is a bit of OCC detail known to only the Diabolists.
Remember that the only bits known widely about rune magic by others is that it uses runes.

Which also is why I said "semi-rune" it is not a full Rune Weapon magic device....but it certainly is using rune magic to achieve an effect.

Narrow but a class available to characters

And these diabolists are going to be interested in making armor/shields because?
Again, my point is that a LOT of this requires thinking not outside the box, but outside the setting and using meta-knowledge to achieve things in game that you wouldn't know. Just like your holistic chemist wont suddenly just 'decide' to 'accidentally' invent gunpowder/thermite/what ever....

Uh.. IG mages and others that can identify rune weapons

So Alchemists and maybe Diabolists?
With a close physical examination....

would know as 1. It is far less magic

Which is of no help because there are a number of True Rune devices that have various features to conceal their magic levels

and 2. there is no entity in it.

Which is going to be nearly impossible to confirm with out a detailed examination....
....there are very few ways, in canon, to do that. Most of which are not even available in PF

3. Along that thought line it is just as likely to get you killed as it is to get you hired by a kingdom and protected.

The fate of every one else who has ever tried to recreate rune magic suggests it will not go well....

1. Why do you have to make fiddly bits? Are you talking on the parchment? If so... don't just make a large square piece and cut it down after you put it in the frame. If your talking the frame... why do they have to be small and/or fiddly?

Because we are back to 'indestructible paper sheet' still needs to be mounted. And those mountings are not indestructible....

2. Be a Diabolist class tahdah no longer rare... to you

Though you still have to be willing to reveal a super duper trade secret of your class to the world....

3. Because Dwarves hate making simple non enchanted things for money...

Since virtually the entire race has a loathing of Rune Magic on a vicerial level....
....yeah, I would not want to be the person who asked a Dwarf to forge me components for what to them will seem to be a new exploration into rune weapon research...

4. Because now your making the alternative cost a LOT negating previous arguments that the parchment costs too much all those enchantments and a full dwarven shield is going to cost a heck of a lot more than parchment made from a large bear skin or other suitably large beast, a "decorative" dwarven made frame, some silver and your own diabolist character to do the act.

My 'deluxe shield' was a demonstration of what you could do with canon.
To get a simple indestructible shield would cost 30,000. To make it master craft is going to cost likely less than your project. And of course my shield is compleately indestructible as opposed to having a frame that can be broken.....

[Zer0 Kay]

but you didn't JUST make it indestructible.

what kind of idiot would tell a dwarf that the simple metal frame was to redevelop rune magic? when giving the design and money should be sufficient.

IIRC there are paion8c powers in PFRPG and some of those allow for detection of life force, never mind that non rune weapons don't radiate an alignment, or is there no alignment detection powers and I'm thinking D&D? But reading the aura would tell you too.

indestructible silver runed parchment is canon so are drums and it is a far smaller jump from invulnerable parchment into a drum head used as a shield than it is from salt Peter, sulfur and charcoal into an explosive powder used to drive a mass of metal out of a tube.

[eliakon]

but you didn't JUST make it indestructible.

My golden version was all kinds of crazy.
My basic version is 30k of indestructible shield.

what kind of idiot would tell a dwarf that the simple metal frame was to redevelop rune magic? when giving the design and money should be sufficient.

Well the first thing is that since your not designing an actual weapon you cant get any of the cool dwarven master craft bonuses....
...unless they can work with the entire project. So your shield will not get any parry bonuses, (and in fact likely would get a penalty because it would be treated as improvised unless you have an actual armorer work with you the entire way to design it and balance it.


Second if they ever find out. Ever. You can pretty well guarantee that the entire dwarven race will be after you.

IIRC there are paion8c powers in PFRPG and some of those allow for detection of life force, never mind that non rune weapons don't radiate an alignment, or is there no alignment detection powers and I'm thinking D&D? But reading the aura would tell you too.

No alignment detection other than 'sense evil', reading aura is questionable (it has never been answered in canon if it works on things like rune weapons, and this is a HUGE issue due to the 'detect magic' properties)

indestructible silver runed parchment is canon so are drums and it is a far smaller jump from invulnerable parchment into a drum head used as a shield than it is from salt Peter, sulfur and charcoal into an explosive powder used to drive a mass of metal out of a tube.

Explosives are canon too....
....but no one has invented guns, or even done much with explosives...
But my point is that the idea of 'hmmm, I will make a drum, only its out of rune paper, then I will use it as a shield....occurring to a diabolist is......well to me it sounds rather much like metagaming.

[Zer0 Kay]

but you didn't JUST make it indestructible.

My golden version was all kinds of crazy.
My basic version is 30k of indestructible shield.

And it was the gold one with all the enchantments that I said would be way more expensive

what kind of idiot would tell a dwarf that the simple metal frame was to redevelop rune magic? when giving the design and money should be sufficient.

Well the first thing is that since your not designing an actual weapon you cant get any of the cool dwarven master craft bonuses....
...unless they can work with the entire project. So your shield will not get any parry bonuses, (and in fact likely would get a penalty because it would be treated as improvised unless you have an actual armorer work with you the entire way to design it and balance it.

but it was the durability of the materials they use not the weapon bonuses I was looking for

Second if they ever find out. Ever. You can pretty well guarantee that the entire dwarven race will be after you.

Ya figure Dwarves would know the difference between "common" Diabolist rune magic and the dreaded rare magic used to create Rune Weapons.

IIRC there are [edit]psionic powers in PFRPG and some of those allow for detection of life force, never mind that non rune weapons don't radiate an alignment, or is there no alignment detection powers and I'm thinking D&D? But reading the aura would tell you too.

No alignment detection other than 'sense evil', reading aura is questionable (it has never been answered in canon if it works on things like rune weapons, and this is a HUGE issue due to the 'detect magic' properties)

so not an absolute no, more like a depends on the GM or we need a ruling on this.

indestructible silver runed parchment is canon so are drums and it is a far smaller jump from invulnerable parchment into a drum head used as a shield than it is from salt Peter, sulfur and charcoal into an explosive powder used to drive a mass of metal out of a tube.

Explosives are canon too....
....but no one has invented guns, or even done much with explosives...
But my point is that the idea of 'hmmm, I will make a drum, only its out of rune paper, then I will use it as a shield....occurring to a diabolist is......well to me it sounds rather much like metagaming.

not to me. If a diabolist realizes that the parchment is invulnerable he'd be a moron not to be trying different ways to use it he could do what good magicky wagiky type people do and research ideas, talk to people, find out how things work that he isn't used to dealing with, like shields. Going form A to Z though, parchment directly to I'm going to make a shield... I wouldn't allow it, come on playaz gotta play dat out. DEFINATELY NOT A STARTING ITEM... unless I get paid some real cash or get a free strike to their head with a shinai or something equally painful but less than lethal.

[eliakon]

but you didn't JUST make it indestructible.

My golden version was all kinds of crazy.
My basic version is 30k of indestructible shield.

And it was the gold one with all the enchantments that I said would be way more expensive

okay, fair enough

what kind of idiot would tell a dwarf that the simple metal frame was to redevelop rune magic? when giving the design and money should be sufficient.

Well the first thing is that since your not designing an actual weapon you cant get any of the cool dwarven master craft bonuses....
...unless they can work with the entire project. So your shield will not get any parry bonuses, (and in fact likely would get a penalty because it would be treated as improvised unless you have an actual armorer work with you the entire way to design it and balance it.

but it was the durability of the materials they use not the weapon bonuses I was looking for

There isn't a huge bonus in durability there honestly. To be honest your going to get better durability bonuses from using fancy materials...(though that racks up the cost super fast)
Especially since officially there isn't any bonus SDC for dwarven work...

Second if they ever find out. Ever. You can pretty well guarantee that the entire dwarven race will be after you.

Ya figure Dwarves would know the difference between "common" Diabolist rune magic and the dreaded rare magic used to create Rune Weapons.

Why? They don't have any diabolists, they tried their best to totally exterminate all traces of rune magic in any form from the world (and succeeded, diabolism was recreated later).
And since the process used is secret all they will be able to figure out is....
That someone has used magic runes to make an indestructible weapon/shield.
Hmmmm I wonder what that sounds like?

IIRC there are [edit]psionic powers in PFRPG and some of those allow for detection of life force, never mind that non rune weapons don't radiate an alignment, or is there no alignment detection powers and I'm thinking D&D? But reading the aura would tell you too.

No alignment detection other than 'sense evil', reading aura is questionable (it has never been answered in canon if it works on things like rune weapons, and this is a HUGE issue due to the 'detect magic' properties)

so not an absolute no, more like a depends on the GM or we need a ruling on this.

It is definitely outside of a standard "easy canon way to check" yes.

indestructible silver runed parchment is canon so are drums and it is a far smaller jump from invulnerable parchment into a drum head used as a shield than it is from salt Peter, sulfur and charcoal into an explosive powder used to drive a mass of metal out of a tube.

Explosives are canon too....
....but no one has invented guns, or even done much with explosives...
But my point is that the idea of 'hmmm, I will make a drum, only its out of rune paper, then I will use it as a shield....occurring to a diabolist is......well to me it sounds rather much like metagaming.

not to me. If a diabolist realizes that the parchment is invulnerable he'd be a moron not to be trying different ways to use it he could do what good magicky wagiky type people do and research ideas, talk to people, find out how things work that he isn't used to dealing with, like shields. Going form A to Z though, parchment directly to I'm going to make a shield... I wouldn't allow it, come on playaz gotta play dat out. DEFINATELY NOT A STARTING ITEM... unless I get paid some real cash or get a free strike to their head with a shinai or something equally painful but less than lethal.

I might accept that sort of logic.

[The Artist Formerly]

Why wouldn't the Chinese paper armor they used on Mythbusters work?

[kiralon]

Why wouldn't the Chinese paper armor they used on Mythbusters work?

Because im pretty sure the mythbusters crew don't live in palladium.

neither do the chinese.

[glitterboy2098]

Why wouldn't the Chinese paper armor they used on Mythbusters work?

because a totally non-magical suit of armor is not what the people in this thread seem to want, given i pointed out that non-magical paper armor would work earlier, and got a lot of people dismissed it in favor if the magic stuff.

[The Artist Formerly]

Why wouldn't the Chinese paper armor they used on Mythbusters work?

because a totally non-magical suit of armor is not what the people in this thread seem to want, given i pointed out that non-magical paper armor would work earlier, and got a lot of people dismissed it in favor if the magic stuff.

I'm just wondering what the official reason would be.

[eliakon]

Why wouldn't the Chinese paper armor they used on Mythbusters work?

because a totally non-magical suit of armor is not what the people in this thread seem to want, given i pointed out that non-magical paper armor would work earlier, and got a lot of people dismissed it in favor if the magic stuff.

I'm just wondering what the official reason would be.

Probably because none of the cultures on palladium have anything like it?
It would be like asking why you can't get a katana, or learn to play the didgeridoo, or speak Finish. While all of those things could exist in the world, none of them actually do.
Sure it would be possible for a PC to go through, come up with the concept and invent, from the ground up, an entirely knew form of armor technology hitherto unknown on the planet....but I would say the plausibility of that is, lets be generous and say its somewhere between zero and none.

[Library Ogre]

Depends on how you mean it.

Paper armor,as laid out in Mythbusters? Doable, as a mundane creation.

However, the OP suggested that diabolists would be able to make invulnerable paper armor, referencing their ability to make parchment (not paper) invulnerable by the application of a silver rune. That's where a lot of the early discussion was... how does one make something effective out of invulnerable parchment. The consensus is that you start by making the item, then using silver runes to make things invulnerable, though whatever connects the parchment pieces together would still be subject to damage.

[The Artist Formerly]

Depends on how you mean it.

Paper armor,as laid out in Mythbusters? Doable, as a mundane creation.

However, the OP suggested that diabolists would be able to make invulnerable paper armor, referencing their ability to make parchment (not paper) invulnerable by the application of a silver rune. That's where a lot of the early discussion was... how does one make something effective out of invulnerable parchment. The consensus is that you start by making the item, then using silver runes to make things invulnerable, though whatever connects the parchment pieces together would still be subject to damage.

Okay. That's a good explanation.

[Veknironth]

Well, I don't know much about Paper armor, but how does it to when it's wet?

-Vek
"Good for taking notes at least."

[Lukterran]

Depends on how you mean it.

Paper armor,as laid out in Mythbusters? Doable, as a mundane creation.

However, the OP suggested that diabolists would be able to make invulnerable paper armor, referencing their ability to make parchment (not paper) invulnerable by the application of a silver rune. That's where a lot of the early discussion was... how does one make something effective out of invulnerable parchment. The consensus is that you start by making the item, then using silver runes to make things invulnerable, though whatever connects the parchment pieces together would still be subject to damage.

Why do you guys keep talking about "parchment" and excluding "paper" in regard to silver runes? Kevin S. uses "parchment paper", "parchment" and "paper" interchangeably throughout the description of the effects that runes have on paper and about paper armor on page 118-119. You guys are getting to into the minutia again. There was no intend to restrict other types of paper made from wood pulp from being effected by runes. OMG!... the book doesn't say what type of leather the parchment is made from. Will only cow leather parchment work!? Will camel, horse or other type of animals work as well to make the parchment? (sarcasm)

It is obvious that all types of paper or parchment were supposed to be made indestructible by writing a silver rune on it. Just like you can use various bounding agents to affix wards and aren't restricted only to rabbit skin glue.

[ShadowLogan]

Well, I don't know much about Paper armor, but how does it to when it's wet?

-Vek
"Good for taking notes at least."

Not considering Runes and such, it will behave like paper/parchment does when it gets wet. The Mythbusters when they tested it (see previous link), did mention that normal paper armor started to disintegrate when wet and from repeated blows. The Silver Rune Paper Armor then would behave as normal Silver Rune Paper/Parchment if it got wet.

[Lukterran]

Well, I don't know much about Paper armor, but how does it to when it's wet?

-Vek
"Good for taking notes at least."

Not considering Runes and such, it will behave like paper/parchment does when it gets wet. The Mythbusters when they tested it (see previous link), did mention that normal paper armor started to disintegrate when wet and from repeated blows. The Silver Rune Paper Armor then would behave as normal Silver Rune Paper/Parchment if it got wet.

Well parchment becomes rawhide if it becomes overly wet because it wasn't tanned.

[Library Ogre]

It is obvious that all types of paper or parchment were supposed to be made indestructible by writing a silver rune on it. Just like you can use various bounding agents to affix wards and aren't restricted only to rabbit skin glue.

I don't think it's obvious. I mean, there's the actual statement

"Yet, writing silver runes on any other substance, object or person does not make it invulnerable — only parchment."

While he then jumps back and forth between parchment, parchment paper, and paper, parchment is a unique item, distinct from paper.

[Lukterran]

It is obvious that all types of paper or parchment were supposed to be made indestructible by writing a silver rune on it. Just like you can use various bounding agents to affix wards and aren't restricted only to rabbit skin glue.

I don't think it's obvious. I mean, there's the actual statement

"Yet, writing silver runes on any other substance, object or person does not make it invulnerable — only parchment."

While he then jumps back and forth between parchment, parchment paper, and paper, parchment is a unique item, distinct from paper.

We would be having this argument in reverse he it had said "only paper" instead of "only parchment". The point of silver runes was basically to be able to make some written materials indestructible to ageing and other factors.

The reason the Kevin went off into the tangent about paper armor in 2ed was that the purpose of silver runes wasn’t supposed to be used to make indestructible shields and armor, it was just only supposed to be used in regard to making books, scrolls and individual pieces of paper indestructible.

We are looking at this way to hard. All paper types were supposed to be included. Or are you going to go on rabbinical on me and we are going to get into an argument gevil vs klaf being the correct type of parchment?

[Library Ogre]

I don't think all types of writing material were supposed to be included. Paper and parchment, though both writing materials, are very different in construction, and I don't see why, for example, if we're going to include paper and parchment under "parchment", we don't include wax tablets, stone tablets, etched metal shields, or anything else that can be made into a writing material.

[Lukterran]

I don't think all types of writing material were supposed to be included. Paper and parchment, though both writing materials, are very different in construction, and I don't see why, for example, if we're going to include paper and parchment under "parchment", we don't include wax tablets, stone tablets, etched metal shields, or anything else that can be made into a writing material.

I just think that the intend of the silver rune power wasn't supposed to limited it to just animal skin parchment. I believe the word "only" intent was to limit the silver runes only making, what any 4 year old would identify simply as "paper" invulnerable and nothing else.

[Library Ogre]

I don't think all types of writing material were supposed to be included. Paper and parchment, though both writing materials, are very different in construction, and I don't see why, for example, if we're going to include paper and parchment under "parchment", we don't include wax tablets, stone tablets, etched metal shields, or anything else that can be made into a writing material.

I just think that the intend of the silver rune power wasn't supposed to limited it to just animal skin parchment. I believe the word "only" intent was to limit the silver runes only making, what any 4 year old would identify simply as "paper" invulnerable and nothing else.

I don't think a 4 year old, presented with parchment, would identify it as "paper", because it has a very different texture, feel, and weight.

[Lukterran]

I don't think all types of writing material were supposed to be included. Paper and parchment, though both writing materials, are very different in construction, and I don't see why, for example, if we're going to include paper and parchment under "parchment", we don't include wax tablets, stone tablets, etched metal shields, or anything else that can be made into a writing material.

I just think that the intend of the silver rune power wasn't supposed to limited it to just animal skin parchment. I believe the word "only" intent was to limit the silver runes only making, what any 4 year old would identify simply as "paper" invulnerable and nothing else.

I don't think a 4 year old, presented with parchment, would identify it as "paper", because it has a very different texture, feel, and weight.

I think if you took a child to the Rotunda of the National Archives Building in Washington, DC. And they look at The Declaration of Independence, the Constitution or the Bill of Rights they are going to think that those documents are written on paper.

You don't even have to take a child in to consideration because children don't know what parchment is. Over 50% of adults would identify them as written on paper even though they might know about parchment.

[Veknironth]

Well, I think I need to make a new post about chalkboard armor.

-Vek
"Distinct from white board armor."

[eliakon]

I don't think all types of writing material were supposed to be included. Paper and parchment, though both writing materials, are very different in construction, and I don't see why, for example, if we're going to include paper and parchment under "parchment", we don't include wax tablets, stone tablets, etched metal shields, or anything else that can be made into a writing material.

I just think that the intend of the silver rune power wasn't supposed to limited it to just animal skin parchment. I believe the word "only" intent was to limit the silver runes only making, what any 4 year old would identify simply as "paper" invulnerable and nothing else.

I don't think a 4 year old, presented with parchment, would identify it as "paper", because it has a very different texture, feel, and weight.

I think if you took a child to the Rotunda of the National Archives Building in Washington, DC. And they look at The Declaration of Independence, the Constitution or the Bill of Rights they are going to think that those documents are written on paper.

You don't even have to take a child in to consideration because children don't know what parchment is. Over 50% of adults would identify them as written on paper even though they might know about parchment.

The main issue though is not what a 4 year old thinks....
...it is what the book says. Since it says that only parchment becomes invulnerable....RAW only parchment becomes invulnerable. Its perfectly possible to house rule it differently and the Game Police won't arrest you if you do.....but the point still stands that officially its just the one material. One can argue if that was what was intended or not, but that is what ended up actually being written.

[kiralon]

I still want to see how people write pure silver onto paper/parchment/whatever.

[eliakon]

I still want to see how people write pure silver onto paper/parchment/whatever.

short version? Carefully
Long answer In a bonding medium. The book suggests rabbit skin glue as a I recall.
Its not like you can just get a pen and draw a ward of permanence no, its an annoyingly complex issue.
Though in theory it might be possible to make an ink that has a sufficiently high metal content to work for just writing the rune.

[kiralon]

With wards it says you can use a bonding agent and has to be at least %70 or something like that. With the silver runes to make parchment invulnerable it states it has to be pure silver, and silver with a bonding agent isn't pure silver, otherwise I'd use 1 grain of pure silver and the rest bonding agent.

[Lukterran]

I don't think all types of writing material were supposed to be included. Paper and parchment, though both writing materials, are very different in construction, and I don't see why, for example, if we're going to include paper and parchment under "parchment", we don't include wax tablets, stone tablets, etched metal shields, or anything else that can be made into a writing material.

I just think that the intend of the silver rune power wasn't supposed to limited it to just animal skin parchment. I believe the word "only" intent was to limit the silver runes only making, what any 4 year old would identify simply as "paper" invulnerable and nothing else.

I don't think a 4 year old, presented with parchment, would identify it as "paper", because it has a very different texture, feel, and weight.

I think if you took a child to the Rotunda of the National Archives Building in Washington, DC. And they look at The Declaration of Independence, the Constitution or the Bill of Rights they are going to think that those documents are written on paper.

You don't even have to take a child in to consideration because children don't know what parchment is. Over 50% of adults would identify them as written on paper even though they might know about parchment.

The main issue though is not what a 4 year old thinks....
...it is what the book says. Since it says that only parchment becomes invulnerable....RAW only parchment becomes invulnerable. Its perfectly possible to house rule it differently and the Game Police won't arrest you if you do.....but the point still stands that officially its just the one material. One can argue if that was what was intended or not, but that is what ended up actually being written.

The book also "says" "paper" twelve other times when referring to the same affect on a piece of "paper" and "parchment". It also mentions "parchment paper" which is completely different material from normal animal skin parchment.

Regardless it is all minutia that does matter at all to the game itself. It works only on parchment, or on parchment and paper, the effect is the same you get one invulnerable page or scroll that will not be destroyed. Both materials near enough the same that it wouldn't matter one bit if you GM in a way to follow the "spirit" of the rule and not the letter of the rule. Which is why you GM/players get confused in the first place. He said no paper/parchment armor, shield or any other protective measure (it is only supposed to make a page indestructible and that is all) that is the spirit of the rule.