Thoughts on digging and mining

[PalladiumBrony]

Posted in here because it's a SDC world question, and I fiigured this would be as good a forum to put it in as any

Several books, including Rifts: Ultimate Edition, have the Mining skill, which says that characters "can dig mine shafts" and extract ore and things. One thing it doesn't really go into is an idea of how much progress you can make digging... One thing I was thinking of is this; With a pick axe, how much progress would one guy make in a day (say, shifting 1D4 cubic feet, or 2D4*20 cubic feet of rock in a day? The last is obviously insanely high, but it illustrates the point I'm trying to make. The number might perhaps vary depending on the kind of rock, breaking them down into "hard rocks" like granite, marble and the like, and "soft rocks" like sandstone or chalk, and obviously you'll go through soft rocks much faster than hard rocks.

Another interesting point is looking into what you find down there, as regards precious metals and gems. Perhaps if you know you're on a seam of precious metals, you extract enough ore to yield x amount of metal a day (the amount varying depending on how mineral rich the area is) with a mounting percentage chance each day that the seam will run dry, and each day of digging yields x amount of gems. And maybe if you're NOT already on a mineral seam, then each day of digging has a flat percentage chance of you randomly striking one - if you're just tunnelling, you might come upon one by chance, again with a higher likelihood of stumbling across mineral ores in different places compared to others. Also, I did think about the chances of coming across random hazards like underground gas pockets or rivers, I think those are covered in one of the Rifters, yes?

What does anyone think?

[Nightmask]

I'd look up the old AD&D books that have that kind of material, like the 1st Editiobn Dungeoneer's Survival Guide. They already have guidelines on mining and how much of x you need to produce y. Depending on how good your Google skills are there should be information online how long it takes to produce so much refined material from raw material and how long it takes to mine it (I remember reading old history books even including information like that to give context to historical events like various gold rushes and silver rushes).

[Tinker Dragoon]

The various races with natural mining/tunneling abilities actually list a digging speed, typically equal to one-third or one-half their standard ground speed. The volume of material that can be displaced is not indicated, but one may infer that it is at least equal to the volume of the creature's body. So, for example, a Troglodyte can tunnel through up to 3D6 feet of earth/rock per second, clearing a volume of material equal to that of its own body in the process.

For surface-dwellers, I should think having the Mining skill would only get you to the minimum ability of subterranean races. That is to say, a human Miner should be able to attain a burrowing speed of no more than one-third normal ground speed; those without the Mining skill might be limited to only one-quarter speed or less.

Alternatively, see the rules for Mutant Animals with Digging, Tunneling, and Excavation abilities in ATB2 (p. 69) or HU2 (p. 169).

[Lukterran]

The various races with natural mining/tunneling abilities actually list a digging speed, typically equal to one-third or one-half their standard ground speed. The volume of material that can be displaced is not indicated, but one may infer that it is at least equal to the volume of the creature's body. So, for example, a Troglodyte can tunnel through up to 3D6 feet of earth/rock per second, clearing a volume of material equal to that of its own body in the process.

For surface-dwellers, I should think having the Mining skill would only get you to the minimum ability of subterranean races. That is to say, a human Miner should be able to attain a burrowing speed of no more than one-third normal ground speed; those without the Mining skill might be limited to only one-quarter speed or less.

Alternatively, see the rules for Mutant Animals with Digging, Tunneling, and Excavation abilities in ATB2 (p. 69) or HU2 (p. 169).

Those digging speeds I always considered insanely cartoonish. Do you realize how fast that this and how much material is being moved? Seriously like Bugs Bunny burrowing through the ground fast. I always just took the digging speed number and made it cubic feet per minute. Which is still really fast digging speed.

[Library Ogre]

Here's the rules I put for digging speeds in the Troglodytes article a few years back:

An Explanation of Digging Speed

Troglodytes have a truly phenomenal digging ability compared to other subterranean races. The average troglodyte has a digging speed of 12, which is three times the average digging speed of a dwarf. However, what does digging speed actually mean?

First of all, the listed digging speed assumes that the character has access to the proper tools. Proper tools for troglodytes are hands and claws. Their claws are are harder than steel (though not very sharp or long, making them useless for parrying). Proper tools for most other races include hammers, picks and shovels. Each point of digging speed refers to cubic feet per unit of time. For dirt (hard or soft; the difficulty of hard earth is offset by the lesser need to support it), it is cubic feet per minute. Soft stone (sandstone, etc.) is traversed in cubic feet per 5 minutes, and hard stone is at least cubic feet per 15 minutes. This can be continued for P.E./40 minutes at full speed (so a P.E. of 40 allows you to dig non-stop; a P.E. of 30 requires 10 minutes of rest every 40 minutes); P.E. Hours at ¼ speed.

Any tunnels built with this method are very fragile. Every ten minutes, or five individuals who pass through, there should be a test of the creators Underground Architecture Skill, with a -5% for every such check that has been made for that tunnel before, or that section of tunnel will collapse. Slowing down to half the normal speed, on top of any slow-down in order to work longer, and making a concentrated effort to reinforce the tunnel (using rock, wooden timbers, bones, or anything else to support the roof, and taking special care about where and how you dig), will make tunnels sturdier; with a successful Underground Architecture check, the tunnel can last more or less indefinitely.

Of course, multiple diggers can combine efforts, or a few faster diggers can create the tunnel, while others follow behind, reinforcing the tunnels they make. That is the way that most tunneling races will usually operate, with the fastest or steadiest diggers leading, while better architects will follow. With at least three workers on a single tunnel, the team can proceed at full speed, but still construct a solid tunnel.

[Lukterran]

Here's the rules I put for digging speeds in the Troglodytes article a few years back:

An Explanation of Digging Speed

Troglodytes have a truly phenomenal digging ability compared to other subterranean races. The average troglodyte has a digging speed of 12, which is three times the average digging speed of a dwarf. However, what does digging speed actually mean?

First of all, the listed digging speed assumes that the character has access to the proper tools. Proper tools for troglodytes are hands and claws. Their claws are are harder than steel (though not very sharp or long, making them useless for parrying). Proper tools for most other races include hammers, picks and shovels. Each point of digging speed refers to cubic feet per unit of time. For dirt (hard or soft; the difficulty of hard earth is offset by the lesser need to support it), it is cubic feet per minute. Soft stone (sandstone, etc.) is traversed in cubic feet per 5 minutes, and hard stone is at least cubic feet per 15 minutes. This can be continued for P.E./40 minutes at full speed (so a P.E. of 40 allows you to dig non-stop; a P.E. of 30 requires 10 minutes of rest every 40 minutes); P.E. Hours at ¼ speed.

Any tunnels built with this method are very fragile. Every ten minutes, or five individuals who pass through, there should be a test of the creators Underground Architecture Skill, with a -5% for every such check that has been made for that tunnel before, or that section of tunnel will collapse. Slowing down to half the normal speed, on top of any slow-down in order to work longer, and making a concentrated effort to reinforce the tunnel (using rock, wooden timbers, bones, or anything else to support the roof, and taking special care about where and how you dig), will make tunnels sturdier; with a successful Underground Architecture check, the tunnel can last more or less indefinitely.

Of course, multiple diggers can combine efforts, or a few faster diggers can create the tunnel, while others follow behind, reinforcing the tunnels they make. That is the way that most tunneling races will usually operate, with the fastest or steadiest diggers leading, while better architects will follow. With at least three workers on a single tunnel, the team can proceed at full speed, but still construct a solid tunnel.

Mark I like your rule! Much better thought out than just 1/3 running speed.

[Tor]

I have recently lamented the lack of plumber skills in other PB games and it occurs to me that even in medieval times you might need special skills to add to digging to know how to dig a proper cesspit or pit latrine.

Can we have a "gong farmer" skill?

[PalladiumBrony]

I have recently lamented the lack of plumber skills in other PB games and it occurs to me that even in medieval times you might need special skills to add to digging to know how to dig a proper cesspit or pit latrine.

Can we have a "gong farmer" skill?

After the Bomb's core rulebook contains the "Plumber" skill, which I would certainly allow to include digging cess pits (Knowledge of proper locations, construction, drainage etc.) as well as all forms of modern indoor plumbing, both commercial/industrial and domestic, where appropriate. For pit latrines, I would allow that under the banner of "Wilderness Survival"

[mirithol]

Here's the rules I put for digging speeds in the Troglodytes article a few years back:

An Explanation of Digging Speed

Troglodytes have a truly phenomenal digging ability compared to other subterranean races. The average troglodyte has a digging speed of 12, which is three times the average digging speed of a dwarf. However, what does digging speed actually mean?

First of all, the listed digging speed assumes that the character has access to the proper tools. Proper tools for troglodytes are hands and claws. Their claws are are harder than steel (though not very sharp or long, making them useless for parrying). Proper tools for most other races include hammers, picks and shovels. Each point of digging speed refers to cubic feet per unit of time. For dirt (hard or soft; the difficulty of hard earth is offset by the lesser need to support it), it is cubic feet per minute. Soft stone (sandstone, etc.) is traversed in cubic feet per 5 minutes, and hard stone is at least cubic feet per 15 minutes. This can be continued for P.E./40 minutes at full speed (so a P.E. of 40 allows you to dig non-stop; a P.E. of 30 requires 10 minutes of rest every 40 minutes); P.E. Hours at ¼ speed.

Any tunnels built with this method are very fragile. Every ten minutes, or five individuals who pass through, there should be a test of the creators Underground Architecture Skill, with a -5% for every such check that has been made for that tunnel before, or that section of tunnel will collapse. Slowing down to half the normal speed, on top of any slow-down in order to work longer, and making a concentrated effort to reinforce the tunnel (using rock, wooden timbers, bones, or anything else to support the roof, and taking special care about where and how you dig), will make tunnels sturdier; with a successful Underground Architecture check, the tunnel can last more or less indefinitely.

Of course, multiple diggers can combine efforts, or a few faster diggers can create the tunnel, while others follow behind, reinforcing the tunnels they make. That is the way that most tunneling races will usually operate, with the fastest or steadiest diggers leading, while better architects will follow. With at least three workers on a single tunnel, the team can proceed at full speed, but still construct a solid tunnel.

Mark - or other forum members - what Rifter issue was your article in?

Also, what language do you suppose troglodytes speak?

Thanks - Miri

[Prysus]

Mark - or other forum members - what Rifter issue was your article in?

Also, what language do you suppose troglodytes speak?

Thanks - Miri

Greetings and Salutations. See Rifter 34 for details (section titled Troglodytes, page 19, by Mark Hall). As for their language, PF2 main book, page 50 tells us they speak (but don't write) Dwarven. Farewell and safe journeys.

[mirithol]

Thanks Prysus. Silly me for looking under Troglodytes instead of under languages.

Rifter 31 - check. Rifter 32 - check. Rifter 33 - check. Rifter 35...Are you kidding me. Grrr.

(Yes, I know it's on DrivethruRPG. I like the books over PDFs)

[ShadowHawk]

here's the notes on digging that PBlackCrow gave me when I was in TN. he tends to have a house rules covering everything. I am coping verbatim.

dig attribute of feet per minute.

when in doubt of an area, a good rule to have when determining hardness is roll 1D100 for every 10-20 actions.

1-49 = earth/sand
50-54 = hardness of 1
55-59 = hardness of 2
60-64 = hardness of 3
65-69 = hardness of 4
70-74 = hardness of 5
75-79 = hardness of 6
80-84 = hardness of 7
85-89 = hardness of 8
90-94 = hardness of 9
95-99 = hardness of 10
100 = roll again and combined 2 stones.

hardness 1 & 2 and under can be dug through without any trouble what so ever by dwarfs without a problem. with tool will make dig faster.

hardness 3 will require a pick to dig through and will not cause any speed problems, or by hand at half speed.

4-9 requires pick and will incur a speed penalties:
4 reduce speed by 1/8
5 reduce speed by 1/4
6 reduce speed by 1/3
7 reduce speed by 1/2
8 reduce speed by 2/3
9 reduce speed by 3/4.
10 will always incur a speed of 0.the characters speed with pick. By the way, a roll of 10 = diamond, so just be prepared.

note: if your not a geologist look up a few stones for each hardness online and do your own quick roll chart. I have his charts here, and DANG! THEY ARE EXTENSIVE!

[Axelmania]

Palladium Fantasy: Dwarf Fortress focusing primarily on underground realm building would be a great world book. Considering that game's put out for free it makes me wonder how cheaply the license could be acquired. Gaining the fans of that game as consumers would be worth it.

Armok, God of Blood, would make an interesting deity.

Would also help in other settings like Splicers where you want to build underground realms to avoid topside threats. Probably also good for Nightbane and Rifts too.

[Hendrik]

Here's the rules I put for digging speeds in the Troglodytes article a few years back:

An Explanation of Digging Speed

Troglodytes have a truly phenomenal digging ability compared to other subterranean races. The average troglodyte has a digging speed of 12, which is three times the average digging speed of a dwarf. However, what does digging speed actually mean?

First of all, the listed digging speed assumes that the character has access to the proper tools. Proper tools for troglodytes are hands and claws. Their claws are are harder than steel (though not very sharp or long, making them useless for parrying). Proper tools for most other races include hammers, picks and shovels. Each point of digging speed refers to cubic feet per unit of time. For dirt (hard or soft; the difficulty of hard earth is offset by the lesser need to support it), it is cubic feet per minute. Soft stone (sandstone, etc.) is traversed in cubic feet per 5 minutes, and hard stone is at least cubic feet per 15 minutes. This can be continued for P.E./40 minutes at full speed (so a P.E. of 40 allows you to dig non-stop; a P.E. of 30 requires 10 minutes of rest every 40 minutes); P.E. Hours at ¼ speed.

Any tunnels built with this method are very fragile. Every ten minutes, or five individuals who pass through, there should be a test of the creators Underground Architecture Skill, with a -5% for every such check that has been made for that tunnel before, or that section of tunnel will collapse. Slowing down to half the normal speed, on top of any slow-down in order to work longer, and making a concentrated effort to reinforce the tunnel (using rock, wooden timbers, bones, or anything else to support the roof, and taking special care about where and how you dig), will make tunnels sturdier; with a successful Underground Architecture check, the tunnel can last more or less indefinitely.

Of course, multiple diggers can combine efforts, or a few faster diggers can create the tunnel, while others follow behind, reinforcing the tunnels they make. That is the way that most tunneling races will usually operate, with the fastest or steadiest diggers leading, while better architects will follow. With at least three workers on a single tunnel, the team can proceed at full speed, but still construct a solid tunnel.

Brilliant article. It is to my great chagrin that you do not write much for PFRPG anymore.