Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Results!

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Your favorite trophy?

Books and wagging fingers! The Rules Lawyer Trophy!
3
30%
Weapons, bonuses, and blood! The Munchkin Trophy!
1
10%
Shiny gold and royal purple! The Awesome Award!
1
10%
Shiny swords! The Challenge Winner!
5
50%
 
Total votes: 10

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Hotrod
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Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Results!

Unread post by Hotrod »

The Unofficial Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge of 2015 is over! All entries have been scored, and all points have been tallied. The trophies are finished, and it's time to present them to the winners!

The Challenge: Come up with the best book-legal non-magical 1-handed melee weapon that could plausibly be made using published Palladium Fantasy books.

The rules of the competition:
+This competition was for non-magical weapons only. Specifically, no alchemist involvement, no blessings, no runes, no wards, no mystical symbols, and no enchantments can be laid into the weapon.
+Materials that have some intrinsic magical properties were allowed. Magical tools/fires could be used in the manufacture of the weapon.
+The weapon had to be made by a canon smith (or book-legal blacksmith up to level 15) currently alive in the Palladium Fantasy setting.
+Any canon 1-handed melee weapon design was allowed, including weapons in the Compendiums.

The scoring criteria:
1. Each dice of damage gave as many points as its average roll, rounded down.
2. Each bonus to a specific move counts as a point, so +1 to damage = 1 point, while +1 to strike/parry = 2 points.
3. Special combat moves that most melee weapons can't do are worth 2 additional points per move.
4. Unique beneficial properties (such as coated with silver to fight undead) are worth 1 point per property.

Throughout the challenge, three special types of points were awarded. These points were cumulative and unrelated to the entries' scores:
+Munchkin Points were assessed for silly shenanigans shamelessly (but futilely) pulled to crank up an entry's score.
+Rules Lawyer Points were assessed for making reasoned arguments, justifying a position with canon references (especially obscure ones), applying appropriate penalties to one's own submission (thus manipulating the judge), changing my mind on scoring, pointing out errors in my scoring, and generally being nit-picky and persuasive.
+Awesome Points were assessed for entries and contributions to the discussion that stand out as particularly inspiring.

The Results: There were 51 entries, about half of which managed to be eligible for points. I have created customized trophies for the winners of the main competition and the special categories. Even if you aren't a winner, I hope you'll enjoy a look.

The Munchkin Award goes to
ShadowLogan,
who amassed 9 Munchkin Points!
Not only did he submit far more entries than anyone else, he also stretched the competition in some very creative ways. ShadowLogan, here is your trophy!

The Rules Lawyer Award goes to
Prysus,
who amassed 23 Rules Lawyer Points!
His arguments were so persuasive, his knowledge of the published canon so encyclopedic, and his attention to detail was so fastidious that I probably should have handed the judging over to him and focuses on making better prizes. Oh well. Prysus, here is your trophy!

The Awesome Award was a tie between, unsurprisingly,
ShadowLogan and Prysus,
with 3 Awesome Points Each!
Some of their best creations will be posted in a follow-up to this. ShadowLogan and Prysus, I'll let you fight over who gets to keep this trophy!

The Overall Challenge Winner, earning an astonishing 54 points for his whistling lance, is
Veknironth!
His winning entry will be in the post below. Veknironth, here is your trophy! Here is a non-animated version. As an additional prize, I've also created a miniature version, which I sized just right to go into a Palladium Message Boards signature! I'm temporarily putting it in my own signature as a salute to the challenge champion!

Read the next post to see my selection of the best and most-awesome entries!
Last edited by Hotrod on Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:01 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by Hotrod »

As I stated in the original post, there were 51 different entries in this competition, and if you enjoy seeing some really creative ideas, the challenge thread is worth a read-through. As the self-appointed judge of the challenge, these were my favorites. Not all of them scored very high, but all of them are, in their own ways, awesome.

Contest Winner:
The Strongarm Lance, by Veknironth

Summary:8D6+12 to damage, +6 to parry, +4 to strike. Automatically strikes through armor, and has many special qualities (see below).

From the Compendium of Weapons, Armor, and Castles, the lance starts with a base of 3d6 damage, but this is a giant-sized weapon, making it 4D6 damage. It is made from Black Metal (forged from the cooled blood of Styphon, one of the gods of Dragonwright in Dragons and Gods), doubling its damage to 8D6. Forged by the master crafting dwarves of the Hex in the Eastern Territories (Northolme, specifically) and of high quality materials to begin with, its user enjoys both the natural bonuses from the compendium and double the standard dwarvish bonuses: +12 to damage, +6 to parry, and +4 to strike. Being principally made of Black Metal, it is lightweight and immune to non-magical damage. Its very tip is made from the cooled blood of Kym-nark-mar (Also in Dragons and Gods), giving it the ability to strike through any armor/AR while still damaging it, and the shaft of the weapon is coated in silver, allowing it to harm the undead. The guard of the weapon is forged from Gantrium (Northern Hinterlands) in a magic fire, and is therefore both indestructible and it doubles the P.P.E. recovery of its wielder. Additionally, this guard contains a small quantity of xanthine gems (also Northern Hinterlands), allowing the weapon to function as a rechargeable P.P.E. Battery. Its handle is made from a unicorn horn (which may also be a P.P.E. Battery and can be burned in a pinch to power a Wonder Power Circle, see PF2E), and the weapon is painted with holy symbols that repel both vampires (Western Empire) and faeries (Monsters and Animals). Finally, the weapon's shaft contains a series of holes that whistle as the weapon is lowered on the charge, an intimidating sound that is usually the last thing its victims ever hear.


Second Place and Honorable Mention:
The Shield of Everlasting Light, by Prysus (51 points)


The City of Kor, within the Yin-Sloth Jungles, suffered from a plague of Vampires. The Master Vampire leading the attack was a former Dwarven Runesmith. His former skills and training as a Runesmith allowed him to sense any rune weapon, holy weapon, and magic spells in the area. This allowed him to evade hunting parties, or even lead them into traps. With the city in great peril, the priests prayed to their gods for guidance. Finally, the gods of Dragonwright decreed that in exchange for the priests forging four holy swords, each named and dedicated to one of the Dragon-Gods, the four dragons would bestow upon them a weapon that can save them from their plight.

Upon the completion of the four holy weapons, the priests were granted a Lantern Shield with unusual properties. The shield was lightweight and able to cut through enemies unlike any other, yet held not magic. The lack of magic allowed the weapon to be used to approach the Master Vampire without alerting him to the impending doom approaching. A Titan Palladin was charged with the task. The hope was that by saving the town from the Vampires with the aid of the Dragon-Gods, that this would help bring in more followers to the Cult of Dragonwright and make it one of the greastest temple cities ever built!

Lantern Shield: 2D6, Giant Size (+1D6), Black Metal (x2; for 6D6 total).

Natural Bonuses: +1 on Initiative, and +3 to Parry.

Hexmaster: +4 to strike and +4 to parry, +6 to parry, and +8 to damage (using "Sword" bonuses). ((If possible, I'd also include the extra +2 to parry and strike, and +4 to parry for all four levels, and +6 to damage, +4 to damage, and +2 to damage for all four levels of damage. Depending on where you decide to draw the line. )).

Note: If allowable, I'd Hexmaster the shield separately using "Blunt" options. The picture in Compendium of Weapons & Armor (so I'm basing it directly off of a by the book image) indicates at least 3 spikes (two are designed for parrying, and one for attacking). They could get maxed as well. However, since these bonuses won't get factored into the point total, it's kind of pointless to mention.

Now we'll start to have some fun ...

The main sword is forged out of Black Metal and then coated in Silver. The black metal's damage isn't based on contact, so the silver shouldn't interfere. This makes it invulnerable to all but magic and lightweight, while the silver can hurt Vampires, Werebeasts, and others with a similar vulnerability.

One of the defensive spikes will be crafted from a unicorn horn. This could allow the user to draw upon the P.P.E. (while keeping it not magical itself). Note: The ability to draw on the P.P.E. is technically just for Beyond the Supernatural and Rifts. However, I can't find a logical reason it doesn't work in Palladium Fantasy, and it makes it more fun. Note: If it won't affect anything, silver coat this as well. This isn't needed, but will help keep a more consistent color theme than a mish-mash otherwise.

The gauntlet and shield will be made from Zandragal's blood. A suit of red metal armour would be impervious to damage (not vulnerability at all listed, not even to magic). At the very least, it would have S.D.C. x3 (which can be important since otherwise shields take damage). Note: The way I've personally always envisioned the ability to be invulnerable yet still have an S.D.C. rating is that the item can become bent and warped out of shaped, but the material itself is still intact. Therefore it just needs to get crafted back into place.

The other defensive spike is forged from White Metal. We don't know what this does, but as it's listed as more powerful I figure this should be worth at least one point (maybe more). Note: If it won't affect anything, silver coat this as well. This isn't needed, but will help keep a more consistent color theme than a mish-mash otherwise. Note: If it won't affect anything, silver coat this as well. This isn't needed, but will help keep a more consistent color theme than a mish-mash otherwise.

The attack spike (center shield, designed for bashing) is forged from Kym-nark-mar's blood. This allows it to cut through armour as if not there (though the armour still takes damage as well).

There is of course the ability to hold the lantern.

Across the center of the shield is emblazoned a Cross (the Kym-nark-mar's spike at the exact center, to add a bit of look, but since it's transparent won't affect the visual either) to help repel both Vampires, Faerie Folk, and others so held at bay by the symbol. Note: I do not believe that a Cross would be considered a "Mystic" symbol, but you might rule that it's akin to the Protection symbol. This design is to take advantage of a symbol that Vampires and Faerie Folk avoid due to their natures, not any magical properties or traits of the symbol itself. But may be removed if necessary.

The Cross would probably be painted in silver, giving the shield a very Silver and Red color scheme. This has no bearing on anything other than appearance.


And to further add to the munchkin the weapon out (I had avoided this initially on principle alone, but I had considered it):

On the knuckles of the gauntlet are four one (1) karate nuggets/stones (think the Infinity Gauntlet) made from Xanthine (20 P.P.E., all the better for that Palladin).



Disqualified, but awesome:
The Super Crazy Weapon, by Veknironth

Take a mace. Have the hex masters make it +4 to damage, which might be impossible as you read further, but perhaps +1 str/par (x2). The head of the mace is extra large, and hollow with a screw like a light-bulb. The glass bulb screws into the handle, which is made of red metal, so it's light weight and indestructible . Inside the bulb is packed fire sand from Yin-Sloth (YS p11). The packed fire sand does 2d4/ounce! I don't even care what the damage of the mace is, it only really matters how much fire sand is in that thing. The average mace is listed as weighing 4.5 lbs. So let's say the glass version has a bulb of half a pound. That would leave you with 4 lbs of fire sand. 4lbs of fire sand = 48 ounces of fire sand. That should be 2d4x48. So, that's 4x48=192 points of damage, on average. That's for an average mace. If it's giant-sized, who knows how much sand is in that bulb? I'd recommend having impervious to fire on the wielder, unless it's a Jotan. Oh, and it also knocks any creature of less than 10 feet on its butt (lose initiative and one attack/action).

Now, if that's not enough, you can take a little of the sand out and sprinkle in some white metal nails, which will be fired out as little projectiles that will slice through any armor. I'm not sure what the blast radius would be, but assuming the target survived the 190+ points of damage the flying nails would probably do an additional 1d4 damage. Once you use the bulb, you can screw another bulb onto the handle and go at it again. You could even make different bulbs for different targets. Throw in silver for supernatural creatures, for example. Hell, if you wanted you could forgo the handle and just smash the bulb onto the target, but you wouldn't get the strike bonuses.



Awesome Attempt to Work-Around-the Rules:
The Mind Shard, by Prysus


Zhardis, a Dwarven miner helping to excavate some old ruins in the Old Kingdom Mountains, uncovered an ancient treasure trove. Within this unsealed tomb rested all manners of Crystal Devices. He concealed his find so that he could keep the hoard all to himself. Now the question became what to do with them? If he used too many openly, he'd become a target. If he sold them all, then he couldn't benefit from their power. He hasn't figured out what to do with everything yet, but he's hatched a plan to use a few of the items and hopes that one day it'll develop enough to let him capitalize on the rest.

He's used his skills at crafting and his natural talents as a Dwarf, taken his time, and forged an expert blade. He's heard of master level smiths in the Eastern Territories, but that would involve telling others what he's up to. By doing the work himself, this allowed him to keep all of the work a secret. He's heard of master level smiths in the Eastern Territories, but that would involve telling others what he's up to. This blade is crafted atop of a relatively small Crystal Wand which he now uses as the hilt. He's also taken a Crystal Band and allowed it to contract around the wand to form nearly one piece. He's then wrapped the hilt in leathers to help conceal the crystal that lies beneath, with merely the base of the hilt extending and appearing more as decoration than its true nature.

Shotel: 1D8+2*

* This would beef up well with Giant Size and then Black Metal, but since I'm going story based I steered clear of those benefits.

Natural Bonuses: +2 on Initiative, +1 to Strike, and +1 to Parry.

Dwarven Craftsmanship: +2 to strike, +2 to parry, and +4 to damage.*

* I avoided Hexmaster for the same reason of story.

* Note: If I had ignored story and made it giant-sized, black metal, and hexmaster, that would be an extra 24 points. But I'm doing this one for fun, not for the points.

Natural Technique: The Shotel blades are specifically designed to attack around/over shields (Compendium of Weapons, Armour, & Castles; page 38).

Crafted Technique: The blade is coated in silver allowing it to damage Vampires, Werebeasts, and others with a similar vulnerability.

Powers of the Handle**:

1. Energy Wand: Energize Wand which allows it to do 2D6 damage, allowing the hilt to also serve as a separate (and rather unexpected) weapon.
2. Energy Wand: Energy Bolt for 4D6, 100 feet away, +5 to strike.
3. Energy Wand: Energy Field that inflicts 4D6 to everyone within a 9 foot radius.
4. Energy Wand: Sparkling Balls of Energy that do 3D6, 60 feet, +4 to strike.
5. Energy Wand: Call Lightning which is based on level, so stats can't be considered (but remains an alternate type of attack).
6. Energy Wand: Dome of Energy that creates a protective yet damaging solid dome.
7. Defender Band: Shadow Meld.
8. Defender Band: Mind Block.
9. Defender Band: Turn Invisible.
10. Defender Band: Basic Force Field.
11. Defender Band: Crystal Skin which is an impervious armor with "ALL" attacks hitting armor first (A.R. 20+).

Note: There is a note about Finger Bands needing to be worn all the time to benefit from effects. However, Crystal Bands are a slightly different category. Finger Bands, for example, only have 1 power while Crystal Bands have more. Also, the benefits need not apply while outside of combat, so he only needs to benefit from them while holding his Shotel.

** If I really wanted to push my luck, I'd try to put multiple bands onto the hilt for multiple powers. However, I decided to stick with the Finger Band restriction of a max of 2 (one on each hand). Since this is one weapon, I decided to count it as one hand, even though Crystal Bands can be worn around the neck, head, wrists, and fingers as well, and there is no clear restriction on the number of Crystal Bands.

Seeing as the Crystal Devices are being used as materials in a new weapon, they should be allowable (since you've already admitted they're NOT magic). They don't need to be created today any more than the smith needs to be able to create silver or god-blood. All that should be needed is that the materials are provided to craft the weapon design.


Awesome 2-in-1 entry:
The Saber of Armoth Helkamar, by Drewkitty


Armoth Helkamar was a frost giant that lived in the mountains that form the board between the lands of the damned and the Ophid's Grasslands. Commissioning a Dwarvish Master Weapons Smith to forge the saber out of the metals he supplied. Armoth had gained from the black suit of armor that some 'hero' was wearing when he came to his cave. Along with a large quartz crystal, and a pound of gold and silver that Armoth had been saving up from what other attacking 'heros' had on them.
What the weapons master produced was a saber gilded in silver and gold, with a simple studded Stirrup hand guard for the hilt. The Hilt handle is finished with Yellow Wood and the quarts crystal has been fashioned into a sphere pommel for the saber. The Weapons master also made a Scabbard made of the wood from a Oakstone tree, Banded with what metal from the suit of armor that was left from half that was not payment for the making of the weapons.

The Scabbard (club) and saber wear made as a paired set.

(weapons quality stats from Com of W,A,&Castles)
Base Saber stat's: Damage: 2D6 +1D6 for being Giant sized.
SDC: 95
Base bonuses for quality
Init: +2
Strike: +1
Parry: +2

Scabbard (Club) Stats: 1d8 +1d8 Giant sized
SDC: 70
Base bonuses for quality workmanship
Init: +2
Strike: +1
Parry: +1
Thrown: +1

Uber quality Dwarf manufacture (edged)
+4 Damage
+3 Parry
+2 Strike& Parry

Uber quality Dwarf manufacture (blunt)
+4 Damage
+3 Parry
+1 Strike& Parry

Black Metal Bonuses (from PF: D&G)
Damage x2
SDC x2

Oakstone wood bonuses and pen.(a stonewood from PF: northern hinterlands page 59)
SDC x2
+1d6 damage
-3 S/P

Saber Totals
sword Damage: 6d6+4, does normal damage to Vamps & Were-persons, silver gilding (plating)
Hilt (punching) damage: Punch +5d6, does normal damage to Vamps & Were-persons, silver gilding (plating)
Init: +2
Strike: +3
Parry: +7
SDC: 190, for when attacked intentionally.

Scabbard Totals
Damage: 6D8+4,does normal damage to Vamps & Were-persons, silver gilding (plating) of the banding.
Init: +2
Strike: -1
Parry: +2
Thrown: -1
SDC: 210, for when attacked intentionally.


Awesome This-Should-Be-a-Real-Thing Entry:
Nunchaku of Misdirection, by ShadowLogan

Base Weapon: Nunchacku
Construction Notes: The handles on each end of the Nunchacku contain a symmetrical ditch/grove so that when the handles are brought together properly the ditche/groves form a blowdart gun (should be one handed). One handle is inlaid with silver, and the other iron for dealing with SN creatures. Kobald manufacture for extra damage (max)
Damage: 2d4+3 by nunchacku strike don't forget any silver/iron vulnerabilities that can be exploited by using the proper end, or by blowgun dart (regular, superior craftsmanship, and/or poisoned)
Penalties: -1 to strike in melee combat with the nunchacku due to the way the handles feel for inexperienced users (need 1 level of regular use), blowdart gun is -10% on range due to less than ideal seal for the shaft. Some users have attempted to compensate for the seal by putting sticky substances (wax usually) on one or both handle just before they switch modes to reduce the range penalty to 5% instead of 10%. If a two handed grip is used the blowdartgun is +1 to strike.
Note: Favoured by assassins due to its ability to misdirect searchers when the blowgun is used to kill their prey and they are found carrying "only" nunchacku as any spare "darts" can be "lost" to avoid searches. Infiltrators (Spies, theives) also like the weapon since it allows them to carry two weapons in one nice package.


Awesome Alternate Approach:
Scholar's Utility Blade, by ShadowLogan

Base Weapon: Dagger
Construction Notes: The Base Weapon is made of Black Metal, and finely balanced and sharpened by a master Dwarf to the utmost of his ability (Hex included). The weapon has several non-combat features built in, the cross guards secure a pair of small UN-enchanted monocles into place, each monocle has a separate level of "magnification" for the "scholar" to use to inspect some text/item more closely. To make reading text written backwards easier (among other reasons) a mirror was installed near the base of the blade on one side (it is possible to put it a mirror on the reverse side, but some find it better without as they can use it as a wax candle holder) between the monocles. The Pommel itself is a removable ink container (seal-able) that could be unscrewed from the hilt. The hilt itself is hollow allowing the storage of chalk, quills, or small amounts of paper. It should be noted that non-Scholars have found other uses for the extra features or "magical" replacements.
Damage for Dagger Version: 1d6 normal + 1d6 giant size x2 Black Metal +8 Damage (Dwarf Hex) = 4d6+8
Bonus: +4 to Strike & Parry
Special Features: Mirror, 2 Monocles (magnification, non magic), hidden ink vial, hidden compartment, 1/2 weight (Black metal)
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by Prysus »

Hotrod wrote:
The Rules Lawyer Award goes to
Prysus,
who amassed 23 Rules Lawyer Points!
His arguments were so persuasive, his knowledge of the published canon so encyclopedic, and his attention to detail was so fastidious that I probably should have handed the judging over to him and focuses on making better prizes. Oh well. Prysus, here is your trophy!

Greetings and Salutations. I had no idea my Rule Lawyer points had gotten that high. Without counting them, I'd have only thought around 10 or so. Had I been asked, I would have done so. And, had that been the case, the order of events (considering at which point this happened, but I'm reviewing things towards the end) would have been something like ...

1: Okay, in that case I need to deduct some rule lawyer points from myself for making a mistake.
2: Lowered the points for the Hexmaster damage value of the Strongarm Lance by Veknironth to fit closer to the rules. Yes, I know I offered suggestions along the way, but there was an error and I didn't catch it until near the end of the competition (see my first action). Note: I intentionally did NOT go into this much during the competition. Now that the competition is over, I can comment with peace of mind.
3: Said, "Oh crap! Does that put me in the lead? Maybe. Um ..." At which point, in the interest of fairness, I'd have disqualified all of my entries to prevent any potential appearance of acting upon personal interest/motivation.
4: Then gone back through each and every entry and examined them with a fine tooth comb type of mentality (because I really only glanced at them as a fellow contestant and didn't give them nearly as much thought unless something jumped out at me).
5: After all these actions, the Strongarm Lance may very well have still came out on top (I think, but not 100% positive). Which means it would have ultimately changed very little, other than the Awesome Award would have been awarded solely to ShadowLogan (no tie), and someone else would be the Rules Lawyer winner.

A little glimpse at how things could have gone differently ... which apparently isn't much different at all. Farewell and safe journeys for now.



P.S. Yes, I like the Rules Lawyer Award, though I voted for the Sword. For one, shiny and animated, which makes it a bit cooler. Second, and perhaps more importantly, it's a freaking SWORD! I've always really liked swords.
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by Hotrod »

You're rules-lawyering against the Rules Lawyer points that I gave you. Classic! I'm fine leaving your total as is. I reevaluated all the rules lawyer, munchkin, and awesome points at the end (since I only started awarding those about halfway through, on a whim), which is why your final total was higher than the ones I first stated in the thread.

If we do something like this again, I nominate you to be the judge.
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Next time it should ba a two-hander non-magical & non-pole arm weapon.
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by Glistam »

It could be interesting to expand the contest outside of the Palladium Fantasy setting, too.
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by Hotrod »

Glistam wrote:It could be interesting to expand the contest outside of the Palladium Fantasy setting, too.


Got any ideas on that? I've startedone or twoother similar discussions, but this is the first one where I actually scored things competitively.
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Hotrod wrote:
Glistam wrote:It could be interesting to expand the contest outside of the Palladium Fantasy setting, too.


Got any ideas on that? I've startedone or twoother similar discussions, but this is the first one where I actually scored things competitively.

Could do the same format but have it based in the 'All Things PB" forum.....or maybe in the Q&A forum.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by Hotrod »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Glistam wrote:It could be interesting to expand the contest outside of the Palladium Fantasy setting, too.


Got any ideas on that? I've startedone or twoother similar discussions, but this is the first one where I actually scored things competitively.

Could do the same format but have it based in the 'All Things PB" forum.....or maybe in the Q&A forum.


Yes, but a megaversal approach might have to deal with issues like conversion for weapon comparisons. It's a good idea in principle, though. I'm sure we can come up with some good megaversal munchkin/rules lawyer challenge topics.
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Next time it should ba a two-hander non-magical & non-pole arm weapon.

I do not object to the non-magical part, but it might be better to do weapon categories. In that way comparing weapons is a bit more balanced, since weapons have intended purposes and uses. A dagger really has no chance of getting into the damage rating of a sword here which is the fastest way to earn scoring points.

I'd also say that when canon materials are brought up with undefined properties in game terms that someone should declare their properties for the purpose of the contest/thread. Otherwise there really isn't much use in picking "White Metal" or Obsidian ("sharper than steel") over materials with known properties like "Black Metal" or silver to add some diversity.
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by Glistam »

Hotrod wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Hotrod wrote:
Glistam wrote:It could be interesting to expand the contest outside of the Palladium Fantasy setting, too.


Got any ideas on that? I've startedone or twoother similar discussions, but this is the first one where I actually scored things competitively.

Could do the same format but have it based in the 'All Things PB" forum.....or maybe in the Q&A forum.


Yes, but a megaversal approach might have to deal with issues like conversion for weapon comparisons. It's a good idea in principle, though. I'm sure we can come up with some good megaversal munchkin/rules lawyer challenge topics.

You could alleviate a lot of conversion issues by having the judging "realm" be Rifts - most Palladium things have conversions for Rifts available somewhere.

I recall enjoying the challenge of this topic you did. Variety is the spice of life.
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by Hotrod »

If someone else is willing to sit as judge (I nominate Prysus!), I'd be happy to make more trophies.
Here's a possible topic
EDIT: I updated this with some of the suggestions below.

Biggest Cheat in the Megaverse: A Rules Lawyer Challenge


Ever notice how many N.P.C.'s have blatantly unrealistic stats, unique powers, precedent-breaking backgrounds and equipment that no playable character is ever supposed to have? Time to break out the books as we try to find the biggest N.P.C. cheat in the published megaverse!
The Challenge:Find a canon N.P.C. whose stats, background, and equipment break rules and continuity more than anyone else. Subject to the judge's approval, you can assign points for each discrepancy according to these guidelines:
Munchkin Miscarriage: +1 point for each identified statistical abnormality (attributes, SDC/HP, damage, range) higher than what is possible according to the rules as written for the character/equipment.
Editing Error: +2 points for internal inconsistencies (For example, a character has skills or abilities not available to his chosen O.C.C.)
Continuity Crash:+3 points for incompatibilities, like a dwarf wizard from Palladium Fantasy
Special Snowflake: +5 points for any unique ability, item, skill, or O.C.C. that this character or his/her equipment gets that no-one else does, or is the only one of his/her kind in the published canon. By unique, I mean that the item, ability, or O.C.C. cannot be created by any known rules for that type of character in the published canon.

Rules:
1. Each entry must identify the N.P.C. by name, book, and edition, list each infraction by category, and explain why it applies, giving appropriate references/rationale.
2. Gods, Old Ones, Alien Intelligences, Demon/Deevil Lords, 4 Horsemen, and major supernatural races who would never be playable anyway (like ancient/adult dragons, 2nd stage Prometheans and the like) are not eligible.
2. Only published books are allowed; no RIFTER content, home-brew, or websites.
3. Each evaluation should be evaluated based on the rules as written for the appropriate edition of the game. For example, a 1st Edition Palladium Fantasy Healer can resurrect people; the 2nd Edition healer can't.
4. If a single inconsistency falls into more than one category, then the highest-scoring category counts (no double-dipping).

Special Category Points:

+Rules Lawyer Points are cumulative throughout the competition and will be awarded for corrections to entries, finding obscure canon references to justify a point, and for changing the judge's mind on any given ruling.
+Munchkin points are cumulative throughout the competition and will be awarded for creative attempts to stretch the contest (or published) rules in order to increase the point tally of an entry.
+Awesome points are cumulative throughout the competition and will be awarded on the sole discretion of the judge for entries and replies that warrant special recognition.
Last edited by Hotrod on Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by Glistam »

Sounds interesting! Whoever would judge this should probably start a new thread for it, maybe in the "All Things Palladium Books" forum? Quick question - the rules say "no Rifter material," but does that exclude "Official" Rifter material as well?
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by Prysus »

Hotrod wrote:If someone else is willing to sit as judge (I nominate Prysus!), I'd be happy to make more trophies.

Greetings and Salutations. Ah [bleep]! Well, I would do it. Luckily, a simple nomination isn't the same thing as winning the title. :D However, I will say that a "Megaversal" competition gets much harder to judge. Also, I don't own a few of the newer books (those published in the last two or three years). Silly little things like moving, getting married, and now trying to get a house have been throwing off my spending budget. :P Though I do own all the older books.

Hotrod wrote:Munchkin Miscarriage: +1 point for each identified statistical abnormality (attributes, SDC/HP, damage, range) higher than what is possible according to the rules as written for the character/equipment.
Editing Error: +2 points for internal inconsistencies (For example, a character has skills or abilities not available to his chosen O.C.C.)
Continuity Crash:+3 points for incompatibilities, like a dwarf wizard from Palladium Fantasy
Special Snowflake: +5 points for any unique ability, item, skill, or O.C.C. that this character or his/her equipment gets that no-one else does, or is the only one of his/her kind in the published canon. By unique, I mean that the item, ability, or O.C.C. cannot be created by any known rules for that type of character in the published canon.

Rules:
1. Each entry must identify the N.P.C. by name, book, and edition, list each infraction by category, and explain why it applies, giving appropriate references/rationale.

Well, if everything is quoted and referenced, then it's just a matter of fact checking. That doesn't seem too bad. Though what if the book contradicts itself? Many of us know that the Palladium rules can often be contradicting (sometimes in the same book). So what if it breaks one rule, but another rule says it's okay?

Also, rune weapons tend to be Special Snowflakes ... a LOT! It's kind of their thing, and yet the rules don't allow for those special abilities. So will we allow almost any rune weapon to be a "Special Snowflake," or will we exclude them from this competition? Anything with a TW-enhancement will also be really hard to judge (I think). They tend to break all sorts of rules as well. And if we do include them, do we count something like "Special Snowflake" once for the whole weapon, or once per feature?

Hotrod wrote:4. If a single inconsistency falls into more than one category, then it counts for both categories. For example, the borg with techno-wizard cybernetics is both a Special Snowflake and a Continuity Crash.

Hmm ... I'll say I imagine quite a few could fall into multiple categories. The worst are probably the "Continuity Crash" and the "Editing Error." After all, how can you say that one is breaking continuity while another is just an editing mistake? So your examples of a Dwarven Wizard or the Techno-Wizard Borg (which I think there's an O.C.C. for that kind of thing or something, isn't there?) could fall into all three categories. This would easily cause points to add up quickly, and if you get the highest rank you'd probably get all the lower ranks as well by default. I'd suggest (but not too worried regardless) one trait can only fall under one category (highest one applies). Other traits can continue to fall under the lower categories, or even the same category if multiple cases of the same feature. So the TW-Borg could be a Special Snowflake, but if he also has an attribute that's not possible he'd fall under Editing Error. Hmm ... actually, not sure if "Continuity Crash" would ever have a category that wouldn't also just be a "Special Snowflake."

Also, I imagine there are some that would fall under these categories that aren't really those categories. For example, there's a Dwarf magic user in one of the books (I think), but he came through a rift from a time when Dwarves DID still use magic. So while he's not by the current rules, he is by the rules of the setting he originated. So is that still a "cheat" by the rules of this competition?

All right, just a few thoughts. Farewell and safe journeys to all.
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by Hotrod »

Prysus wrote:
Hotrod wrote:If someone else is willing to sit as judge (I nominate Prysus!), I'd be happy to make more trophies.

Greetings and Salutations. Ah [bleep]! Well, I would do it. Luckily, a simple nomination isn't the same thing as winning the title. :D However, I will say that a "Megaversal" competition gets much harder to judge. Also, I don't own a few of the newer books (those published in the last two or three years). Silly little things like moving, getting married, and now trying to get a house have been throwing off my spending budget. :P Though I do own all the older books.

Hotrod wrote:Munchkin Miscarriage: +1 point for each identified statistical abnormality (attributes, SDC/HP, damage, range) higher than what is possible according to the rules as written for the character/equipment.
Editing Error: +2 points for internal inconsistencies (For example, a character has skills or abilities not available to his chosen O.C.C.)
Continuity Crash:+3 points for incompatibilities, like a dwarf wizard from Palladium Fantasy
Special Snowflake: +5 points for any unique ability, item, skill, or O.C.C. that this character or his/her equipment gets that no-one else does, or is the only one of his/her kind in the published canon. By unique, I mean that the item, ability, or O.C.C. cannot be created by any known rules for that type of character in the published canon.

Rules:
1. Each entry must identify the N.P.C. by name, book, and edition, list each infraction by category, and explain why it applies, giving appropriate references/rationale.

Well, if everything is quoted and referenced, then it's just a matter of fact checking. That doesn't seem too bad. Though what if the book contradicts itself? Many of us know that the Palladium rules can often be contradicting (sometimes in the same book). So what if it breaks one rule, but another rule says it's okay?

Also, rune weapons tend to be Special Snowflakes ... a LOT! It's kind of their thing, and yet the rules don't allow for those special abilities. So will we allow almost any rune weapon to be a "Special Snowflake," or will we exclude them from this competition? Anything with a TW-enhancement will also be really hard to judge (I think). They tend to break all sorts of rules as well. And if we do include them, do we count something like "Special Snowflake" once for the whole weapon, or once per feature?

Hotrod wrote:4. If a single inconsistency falls into more than one category, then it counts for both categories. For example, the borg with techno-wizard cybernetics is both a Special Snowflake and a Continuity Crash.

Hmm ... I'll say I imagine quite a few could fall into multiple categories. The worst are probably the "Continuity Crash" and the "Editing Error." After all, how can you say that one is breaking continuity while another is just an editing mistake? So your examples of a Dwarven Wizard or the Techno-Wizard Borg (which I think there's an O.C.C. for that kind of thing or something, isn't there?) could fall into all three categories. This would easily cause points to add up quickly, and if you get the highest rank you'd probably get all the lower ranks as well by default. I'd suggest (but not too worried regardless) one trait can only fall under one category (highest one applies). Other traits can continue to fall under the lower categories, or even the same category if multiple cases of the same feature. So the TW-Borg could be a Special Snowflake, but if he also has an attribute that's not possible he'd fall under Editing Error. Hmm ... actually, not sure if "Continuity Crash" would ever have a category that wouldn't also just be a "Special Snowflake."

Also, I imagine there are some that would fall under these categories that aren't really those categories. For example, there's a Dwarf magic user in one of the books (I think), but he came through a rift from a time when Dwarves DID still use magic. So while he's not by the current rules, he is by the rules of the setting he originated. So is that still a "cheat" by the rules of this competition?

All right, just a few thoughts. Farewell and safe journeys to all.


Regarding you judging, you have more of the books than I do, and you've got a pretty sharp eye for detail. There are enough folks who've bought the newer books that others could step in.

Regarding the rule interpretation, that'll be your job now (laughs maniacally)! If I were judging, though, I would say that a canon inconsistency should be interpreted such that the most-recent revision applies. Yes, this will skew some of the older book N.P.C.'s, but it'll also help to illustrate how player characters are expected to stay current with the rules, while N.P.C.'s are not. If there are inconsistencies within the same book, then I would err on the side of throwing out the infraction, unless that inconsistency exists specifically in the N.P.C. mentioned.

Regarding Rune weapons, there are several places that cover their possible powers. If they have special powers that aren't listed, but do occur in other rune weapons, then it's an Editing Error. If the powers are unique to the weapon, then that weapon's power is a special snowflake.

Regarding the stacking, that was just a suggestion; the alternative is to only count the highest-scoring category for each infraction. Yeah, that probably makes more sense, or else you'll have to do a lot more summing.

An example of a Continuity Crash that isn't a Special Snowflake: The Tombs of Gersidi adventure has orc soldiers with Horsemanship: Knight. Lots of them have this (and this happens in other places, too), so that type of infraction would be a Continuity Crash, but not a Special Snowflake.

Finally, regarding the Official Rifter content... I wouldn't want to include it, personally. It's hard enough keeping all the published books straight, and there are a LOT of Rifters. Of course, that would be up to the judge.
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

So most of these are for giants...how do humans/elves/dwarves handle them? Or would you just get non-giant sized versions?
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by Hotrod »

Alrik Vas wrote:So most of these are for giants...how do humans/elves/dwarves handle them? Or would you just get non-giant sized versions?


They don't! Going giant-size was one of the first tricks people used in the challenge to up the points of their submissions. If you want to equip one of your N.P.C.'s with one such weapon, I suggest going through the stats and reducing the base damage appropriately. In most cases, it'll be one or two D6, depending on if the submission uses Black Metal.
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by Hotrod »

Here's another possibility. We could do this with almost any character statistic, but attacks per melee is perhaps the most munchkin-focused stat of all in Palladium's combat system:
Attack of the Attacks!: A Megaversal Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge

The Challenge: Create a book-legal character with as many attacks/actions in a single melee as possible.

Rules:
1. You may use all compatible published books for any MDC and SDC settings. If you can rift to or from there, it's allowable.
2. The character must be a playable species, or a playable version of that species (Dragons must be hatchlings, Prometheans must be 1st stage).
3. Each source of attacks/actions must be cited by book and page number.
4. The character's different sources of extra attacks/actions per melee must be internally compatible. A full-conversion borg can't get extra attacks by taking muscle-enhancing drugs, for example.
5. The character can be no higher than level 15.
6. Attacks/actions can be restricted, but must be independent of each other. For example, if a character gets an extra breathe fire attack once per round, that's ok. However, striking with two weapons in a paired weapons attack only counts as one attack/action.
7. You may put the character into any plausible set of canon circumstances you like (night, day, outer space, underwater, your choice of enemies/allies in the situation, et cetera).

Special Category Points:
+Rules Lawyer Points are cumulative throughout the competition and will be awarded for corrections to entries, finding obscure canon references to justify a point, and for changing the judge's mind on any given ruling.
+Munchkin points are cumulative throughout the competition and will be awarded for attempts to stretch the contest (or published) rules in order to increase the point tally of an entry.
+Awesome points are cumulative throughout the competition and will be awarded on the sole discretion of the judge for entries and replies that warrant special recognition.

If anyone is willing to be the judge, I'll be happy to make the trophies.
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by Glistam »

This will get out of control fast.
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Maybe you should start a New topic for this.
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

@Level 15
Immortal Godling +2 (PU2 page 61)
&one major Nat. Combat Ab.+12 (HU2 MB page )
seven minors
Tentacle of Hair +2 (PU1 page 46)
Weightlessness +1 (PU1 page 50)
Ex PP +1 (hu2 MB page 232)
Lighting Reflexes +1 (PU1 page 34)
Multi-Tasking +1 (PU1 page 36)
Battle Rage +2 (PU1 page 14)
Adrenaline Surge +1 (PU1 page 9)
Immortal ed: Martial Artist +1 (PU2 page 65)
-Ambidexterity (from Multi-tasking) +1 (bonuses defined HU2 mb page 159, AUGG page 145, splicers page 86, RWB 13 page 97)
Armor enchanted with spell abilities: Fleet feet: doubles (PF2 Western Emp. page 158)
Boots: super invention: L8 two majors: (PU2 page 67-70)
-copy animal Attributes: <Cheetah/gazelles/ostriches> (PU1 page 67)
--EX spd +1 (hu2 MB page 232)
--Sonic Speed +3 (hu2 MB page 289&290)
-Spin at High V +1 (hu2 MB page 291)
Gloves: Gauntlets of Quick Hands +1 (PF2 Western Emp. page 159)
Potion: might of the Palladium+1 (PF2 MB page 253)

Sub total: 31 x2
Total: 62 APM

Breaking it down there are 23 APM from constant powers and enhancements and 8 that are temporary. And the doubling effect is also temporary.

Splicer Armor (did not build the whole host armor...just picked out features that added +APM)
Host: Parasitic +2 (page 74)
Echo location +1 (page 80)
Radar +1 (page 81)
Adrenaline Surge +1 (page 85&86)
Additional insect are pairs 4: +4 (page 89)
Prehensile tails 3: +3 (page 94)
Total: +12 APM

Adding the Host armor to the rest: (31+12)x2----->43x2=86 APM
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by Hotrod »

Oh, um, I was just throwing out ideas for a new challenge, not actually starting one. I like the enthusiasm, though!
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by kiralon »

Hotrod wrote:Oh, um, I was just throwing out ideas for a new challenge, not actually starting one. I like the enthusiasm, though!

darn, I was going to go the old jeridu 144 attacks per melee with his sextuple strike (the rules specifically state double strike stats not allowed, and Jeridu is sextuple strike - going for rules lawyer bonus at the same time lol) and being a zanji swordsman and being fleetfeeted.
This is semi legit by palladium fantasy as one of the things it says in the back of the N&S book is that zanji is one of the usable martial art styles in palladium if the gm allows, however just straight fantasy is about 108 attacks.
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Re: Palladium Fantasy Munchkin/Rules Lawyer Challenge Result

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Hotrod wrote:Oh, um, I was just throwing out ideas for a new challenge, not actually starting one. I like the enthusiasm, though!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Could stuff the host armor into a Bot and add Robot Combat Elite APMs too........ A Palladium-books Munchkin Turduck'n.


I think I broke the system enough for one week. And now there is an example of why GMs need to pay close attention the char sheets. Cause at level one....w/o the equipment side that char would of had 15+3 APM. ....well 13+3 if if I don't count where I bent the text just a wee bit.

And i didn't even add up the other combat bonuses that went along with those powers.
And I could of just as easily sub'ed out the powers I chose for others. The main thing was that for the other powers I didn't choose, the +APM were conditional...in flight, in space, underwater, daytime, full moon......
---------
And I would guess that heros with the Copy Animal Attributes would have their day job at the local Zoo. Cause that is where all the exotic animals are found to copy from.
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