Elven Deities?

[SlaytheDragon]

Hey there everyone! New to the forum but have been playing with the Palladium and Rifts setting for years now. I thought I could get a little more active online and see how others play and whatnot. So I had a question that has come up while I've been planning stuff for my players.

So there are two great books full of gods and pantheons and all sort of deities but I can't find anywhere mentioning any gods specific to the elven race. Do they generally follow the pantheon of light and dark or are they atheistic? I can't find anywhere in Dragons&Gods or the Pantheons book mentioning specific gods related to the elf race. For that matter are there gods that are specific to a certain race or ethnic group in the Palladium setting?

[drewkitty ~..~]

There is just light and darkness...no racial deities per say.

even though I have made up an Elven Deity cause I didn't like the ones PB had.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Elves don't have racial elven deities, they seem to just worship whatever other pantheon in palladium that catches their eye. I figure you will find elven adherents to all the palladium fantasy pantheons.

[say652]

But, Asgardian Elves pass themselves off as Demi Gods, and are supernatural I am willing to bet with enough worshippers they could gain Deific influence.

[SlaytheDragon]

But, Asgardian Elves pass themselves off as Demi Gods, and are supernatural I am willing to bet with enough worshippers they could gain Deific influence.

Ooohh, I do like that idea a lot, thanks! I've always seen the elves as a broken people after the war and just scattered around Palladium with a few wandering nomadic tribes being the only real large groups anymore and maybe a few hidden cities in some enchanted forest type setting. I figured the majority have just integrated into society and live in human cities. I was playing with the idea of some returned elven god trying to "reunite" the elven people and make some great elven nation again only to turn around and abuse them and use them for their magical potential to make the would be god more powerful. Not too original of an idea but one that would span quite the adventure at least.

[Nekira Sudacne]

But, Asgardian Elves pass themselves off as Demi Gods, and are supernatural I am willing to bet with enough worshippers they could gain Deific influence.

Why would asgardian elves even know about Palladium Fantasy? they are from a different world entirely. it's not like there's an elven hive mind that lets all elves magically know all other worlds that elves live on.

Also, why would the other elves worship them? They are not particuarlly impressive. they have MDC...in Rifts, but they would be SDC creatures in Palladium Fantasy, which means they would just be a race of elves slightly stronger and faster than normal. not exactly worship material, most elves would laugh at an asgardian asking for worship.

In fact, the entry says outright that other elves dismiss any notion that they ARE related and regard their claims to demigodhood with suspicion and resentment. it says SOME do worship them, but pretty clearly, not enough to give them devine status.

[Soldier of Od]

As far as I know there are no elf-specific religions or gods. I guess based on the ages of most of the religions and gods that many of them started off on Palladium as being worshipped by elves. The only race-specific religion/pantheon I can think of in all of Palladium is the giants' Pantheon of the Blade in the Mount Nimro book.

Coincidentally, I just started on a gnome-specific religion with a pantheon of gnome gods, though these are not actually new gods, but aspects or manifestations of existing gods as interpreted by this gnome religion. Why not make up your own elf religion, perhaps based on lost gods who fought side by side with the elves against the Old Ones? Or elves who where originally mortal and fought in the chaos war and have since been elevated to godhood (like the dragon gods were, and to a certain extent, Lictalon).

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Well, I think it's important to keep in mind that on the Palladium World (and the Megaverse as a whole) that gods actually exist, communicate with followers, can provide help, and even grant powers. This is not to say religions of our world are fake, but to show a very different level of interaction. However, in our world we rely largely on faith, while on the Palladium World there is tangible proof. This , I think, is a part of why we don't see as much in the way of race specific deities. The Elves aren't going to follow a pantheon of Elves and the Dwarves a pantheon of Dwarves, they're going to worship what's already there (in my opinion). While there might be disagreements on which one is better, it's hard to argue they don't exist at all ... or convince someone a god exists that doesn't take any action whatsoever while another god is over there performing miracles.

Also, many of the pantheons in Gods & Dragons (for instance) aren't race specific. Look at the Gods of Light & Dark as an example. Are they Elves, Dwarves, Human? Not really any of the above. They're gods, and non-race specific. Though if I had to pick a pantheon for Elves, it's likely the Gods of Light & Dark. We know they were a big part of the Chaos War, which the Elves also took part in. Elves and Dwarves are the only races (allegedly) that survived the Chaos Wars (that's constantly contradicted later), which means that races like Humans and Dwarves actually came into existence AFTER the Gods of Light & Dark were major powers. Then there's also the factor that their calendar (and is the "basis for all other calendars") records go back for over 10,000 years (so during the Age of Elves, and again, the basis for ALL other calendars). Note: Calendar information can be found in Dragons & Gods, page 135-136.

Hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Veknironth]

Well, there is also the idea that gods wear many guises. They may appear human in the books because we're human. However, to Elves they probably appear Elvish. So, the elves might be worshiping what they think is an Elf god but it's really Set.

-Vek
"...Horses would draw their gods like horses..."

[Jerell]

Agreed. I always thought the elves would just have more elven like images of the same gawds. Like Rurga for example could have a more human looking depiction and a more elven looking depiction (thinner, pointy ears, ect). That's how I always ran it in my old Palladium campaign.

[Library Ogre]

And, of course, consider history. The Church of Light and Dark was almost definitely the elven deities at one time...or, at least, major deities of the Elven Empire. Likewise, Rurga and her Pantheon left the world for a time because of the Elf-Dwarf war, indicating that they were widely worshiped by one group or another (I like to think that Rurga's pantheon was favored by the dwarves)

[Goliath Strongarm]

And, of course, consider history. The Church of Light and Dark was almost definitely the elven deities at one time...or, at least, major deities of the Elven Empire. Likewise, Rurga and her Pantheon left the world for a time because of the Elf-Dwarf war, indicating that they were widely worshiped by one group or another (I like to think that Rurga's pantheon was favored by the dwarves)

The Gods of L&D are, by and large, "no" race- they are humanoid, with animal features.

BUT!!!
We also have the Norse.. err, Northern Gods, who are pretty much "human", with minor exceptions, like Belimar and Wolvenar.

Bes the Depraved is a dwarf, however, I see most dwarves NOT worshiping Bes. At all.

Chantico is now a dog, but we don't know what he originally was. Perhaps a member of one of the Canine races? A coyle-ish god, perhaps?

Apis is a "cow-headed woman", so I perhaps can see her more as a minotaur.

Apepi, along with the Dragonwright gods, are dragons.

I'm sure if we dig through the books, there are others. I'm just not that motivated about it right now.

[The Dark Elf]

Gods aren't generally followed because of their appearance but more often their effects on the follower.

The East are now having a big following for Rurga because of an impending war. Farmers/farming regions and such may worship Apis or harvest gods more. Thieves worship thief gods more and there are several cults of assassins dedicated to Panath.

So my point is try and think about what Elves or whomever would have needed in their society at whatever time your looking at (cos things may change) and that may enlighten your thought process.

[glitterboy2098]

perhaps elves don't normally worship dieties, but instead have a more animistic faith, including a form of ancestor reverence? so instead of praying to a god they call on the spirit of some ancient and well known elf, or on the spirits of animals, trees, or stones, as appropriate?
they'd recognize the pantheons and recognize their power, but under such a system the 'gods' would just be other powerful spirits.. to be respected and honored, but not followed exclusively.
to a non-elf such animism, especially the ancestor bits, would come across like worship of their own pantheon. especially if the person hearingit does not know about the history of the ancestor being called on.

as for names, i suggest mining the Silmarillion for stuff.. it's less well known compared to lord of the rings or the hobbit, it has a ton of elves and elvish names, and many of the great heroes and such have 2-3 different names listed, for the different languages in tolkien's setting. which can make it even less obvious your borrowing from tolkien. (for example, people will recognize "gandalf" or "Mithrandir".. but the name Olorin is largely unknown to anyone who isn't a fanatical fan, and still sounds suitably elvish)

[say652]

Many Greek gods would fit the classic elf theme.
Apollo or Artemis for example

[glitterboy2098]

actually, given the fact that elves originated from the Norse mythology (and fantasy RPG elves are heavily based on tolkien's elves, in stories that drew heavily on norse, anglo-saxon, and celtic elements) , if your going to use an existing pantheon, the norse pantheon (or their northern pantheon expy's in PFRPG) might make a better choice than greek.

hmm.. perhaps if you really want to use a real world one as a base, look at the Finnish Pantheon. it has some elements in common with the norse pantheon, but it is distinct and has it's own cosmology that might map well to the Palladium World.

[eliakon]

perhaps elves don't normally worship dieties, but instead have a more animistic faith, including a form of ancestor reverence? so instead of praying to a god they call on the spirit of some ancient and well known elf, or on the spirits of animals, trees, or stones, as appropriate?
they'd recognize the pantheons and recognize their power, but under such a system the 'gods' would just be other powerful spirits.. to be respected and honored, but not followed exclusively.
to a non-elf such animism, especially the ancestor bits, would come across like worship of their own pantheon. especially if the person hearingit does not know about the history of the ancestor being called on.

as for names, i suggest mining the Silmarillion for stuff.. it's less well known compared to lord of the rings or the hobbit, it has a ton of elves and elvish names, and many of the great heroes and such have 2-3 different names listed, for the different languages in tolkien's setting. which can make it even less obvious your borrowing from tolkien. (for example, people will recognize "gandalf" or "Mithrandir".. but the name Olorin is largely unknown to anyone who isn't a fanatical fan, and still sounds suitably elvish)

Ohhhh I like this....
It would tie in really well with the PF concept that the elven race dates back to the Age of Chaos.....
I mean the race is older than a lot of the gods on PF......
*steeeeeerrr borrows this*

[glitterboy2098]

a good place to look for religious elements in an elvish animist faith would be real world faiths like Shinto, Chinese Folk religion, Traditional African, Filipino, and Native American faiths..

also some elements of Taoism and (certain varieties of) Vajrayana Buddhism might be worth a look as well.

it's probably best to borrow elements from several faiths, rather than just file the serial numbers off a real world one. mix and match elements to fit.

what might be interesting is if they do recognize a "great creator" or creators.. only since it's the old ones, they dread and fear them, and avoid invoking them outside the context of magic spells. (which would have some odd parallels with the cimmerian god "Crom" from Robert E howards conan stories.. )

[ShadowHawk]

For that matter are there gods that are specific to a certain race or ethnic group in the Palladium setting?

Unfortunately not, other the the wolfen god. Which I consider BORING! So I use the gods of AD&D to supplement.

[Library Ogre]

Even Wolvenar isn't exclusive to the Wolfen... he's most popular there, but not exclusive to them. It could be interesting to build a bit of a racial supremacy cult based around the worship of Wolvenar, though.

I kind of like the set up in PF. Several competing pantheons, none of which have exclusive racial dominion, several of which have overlapping realms of concern. Algor and Ippotomi (sp) and Lista are all sea Gods, but are worshiped more or less independently. There's no "elven god of the sea" whom elves worship exclusively (except for player character weirdos), there's simply several sea deities, tied to different cultures and factions. It makes for a far more competitive religious landscape.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Mark Hall's last post mentioned the word "exclusive" and this got me thinking ... wow, what a horribly bad idea for a pantheon to be exclusive to a single race. Gods in Palladium gain power through the size of the worship base. By limiting yourself to only one race, you're limiting your power. Even more than that, if anything ever happens to that race and you just killed yourself. I can almost imagine there were gods exclusive to certain races during the Age of Chaos.

"The Elves wish to worship up? Ha! I see no need for Elves. I'd smite any Elf who dares try to worship me. I only have need for the Pleytrinka."
"Well, the Old Ones just wiped out the Pleytrinka. They're dead."
"All of them?!"
"Well, most. A few survived, but they'll probably die off in a few generations, and their current small numbers aren't enough to give us power."
"****!" And then the entire pantheon vanished.

"Uh, sir, the entire Planar pantheon just got wiped out from existence due to their worship base being exterminated. Maybe we should expand to other races."
"No! We need not expand! We are exclusive only to the Hrangee. That is what makes others want to worship us so bad and give us power, and our refusal only wants them to worship us only more."
"But if we don't let them worship us that doesn't do us any good."
"Quiet!"
"And there go the Hrangee." And another pantheon vanished.

Any pantheon of gods during the Age of Chaos exclusive to one race were probably wiped out due to their narrow worship base. Keep in mind, only Dragons, Titans, Elves, and Changelings (possibly, there's some room for debate on this one) really survived that war in any decent numbers (other races have been added as new sourcebooks have been released). The Age of Chaos is believed to have lasted millions of years, and "dozens" (note the plural) of races died in the final battle alone (that's just ONE battle). So, in theory, there were once thousands of exclusive pantheons ... and as those thousands of races perished, so too did the gods. I'd imagine the gods who survived adapted and weren't quite so stubborn. Just a thought. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Tor]

Maybe this is why the Demon Lords of Hades aren't as powerful as they could be, too much reliance on Gur/Gar goyles and not enough on mortals.

I remember in the Dyval sourcebook they mentioned how there's something like 100x more mortal worshippers for a Regent or Dyval/De(e)vil Lord compared to Lesser Dyvalians/De(e)vils, can't remember if Demon Lords were the same.

[gaby]

I see no problem making up Elven Gods.

[Razorwing]

Greetings and Salutations. Mark Hall's last post mentioned the word "exclusive" and this got me thinking ... wow, what a horribly bad idea for a pantheon to be exclusive to a single race. Gods in Palladium gain power through the size of the worship base. By limiting yourself to only one race, you're limiting your power. Even more than that, if anything ever happens to that race and you just killed yourself. I can almost imagine there were gods exclusive to certain races during the Age of Chaos.

"The Elves wish to worship up? Ha! I see no need for Elves. I'd smite any Elf who dares try to worship me. I only have need for the Pleytrinka."
"Well, the Old Ones just wiped out the Pleytrinka. They're dead."
"All of them?!"
"Well, most. A few survived, but they'll probably die off in a few generations, and their current small numbers aren't enough to give us power."
"****!" And then the entire pantheon vanished.

"Uh, sir, the entire Planar pantheon just got wiped out from existence due to their worship base being exterminated. Maybe we should expand to other races."
"No! We need not expand! We are exclusive only to the Hrangee. That is what makes others want to worship us so bad and give us power, and our refusal only wants them to worship us only more."
"But if we don't let them worship us that doesn't do us any good."
"Quiet!"
"And there go the Hrangee." And another pantheon vanished.

Any pantheon of gods during the Age of Chaos exclusive to one race were probably wiped out due to their narrow worship base. Keep in mind, only Dragons, Titans, Elves, and Changelings (possibly, there's some room for debate on this one) really survived that war in any decent numbers (other races have been added as new sourcebooks have been released). The Age of Chaos is believed to have lasted millions of years, and "dozens" (note the plural) of races died in the final battle alone (that's just ONE battle). So, in theory, there were once thousands of exclusive pantheons ... and as those thousands of races perished, so too did the gods. I'd imagine the gods who survived adapted and weren't quite so stubborn. Just a thought. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

While I agree that the Gods themselves wouldn't turn away anyone who chooses to worship them... the various religions that evolve from these worshipers may not be so tolerant.

For example, during the Elf/Dwarf war, there were likely a few religions that had both Elf and Dwarf followers from before hostilities broke out. As the war dragged on for centuries, it is likely that the followers of these gods split into smaller factions or cults that excluded the other... the Dwarves who worshiped the same god as an Elf would see that Elf as a heretic... while the Elven followers would see the Dwarves as the same. The god in question likely didn't take a side in the conflict and granted followers from both races their priestly powers.

This is how I see "Racial" worship evolving on a world like Palladium... not because the God chooses only the followers of a specific race, but rather because those followers exclude members of other races. This could range from the relatively peaceful refusal to acknowledge worshipers from other races as part of the faith... to out right hostility of anyone worshiping their god who isn't one of the god's "chosen" race.